Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / June 2009

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Bad E-6 5L kits circulating?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Thor Lancelot Simon - 29 Jun 2009 03:28 GMT
I think -- after very carefully *not* ordering another 5L E-6 kit
from Adorama since the last one they sent me was short dated (only
4 months left on the concentrate shelf life when it arrived) -- I
just got a bad 5L E-6 kit from B&H.

I can't be sure, since I mix partial kits, keeping the concentrates
out of vacuum and drawing them from the bottles with clean syringes.
This isn't, of course, the Kodak Approved procedure and I am pretty
sure that consequently, Kodak won't be too eager to help me.  But
the first run of film I did in this kit, about a month ago, was
fine -- and generally I can keep a kit for well over a year using
this procedure, if I have to, with no problem with the developed
film.  Today's tanks of film (sadly I ran two at once) showed all
the signs of exhausted first developer.  There was a good strong
vacuum when I opened the bottles, so that's not it -- and it was
not particularly hot where they were stored, either, and I know
I got the mixtures right and times/temps were correct.

I wonder when the last time Kodak made the 5L E6 kits was.  Has
anyone else received a bad one lately?  With bad results from
both B&H and Adorama I'm not even sure where to turn for a new
one.

Signature

Thor Lancelot Simon                                      tls@rek.tjls.com
   "Even experienced UNIX users occasionally enter rm *.* at the UNIX
    prompt only to realize too late that they have removed the wrong
    segment of the directory structure." - Microsoft WSS whitepaper

Richard Knoppow - 29 Jun 2009 21:14 GMT
>I think -- after very carefully *not* ordering another 5L
>E-6 kit
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> new
> one.

    Have you tried Freestyle?  They seem to be quite
reliable. I have the advantage that they are only a short
drive from my home but they seem to have a very good mail
order reputation.

--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Thor Lancelot Simon - 29 Jun 2009 21:43 GMT
>     Have you tried Freestyle?  They seem to be quite
>reliable. I have the advantage that they are only a short
>drive from my home but they seem to have a very good mail
>order reputation.

It hadn't occurred to me that they'd stock the Kodak chemistry;
they have their own 3-bath "Arista" brand, and I don't want
3-bath, but I bet they do carry Kodak.

I called a friend at Calumet who told me that if I ordered a
5L kit from them it'd drop-ship to me from Kodak and that
if I got short-dated product directly from Kodak please let
them know immediately.  Looking at the remnants of the
packaging from the last kit I got from Adorama, it appears
that, in fact, Kodak may have sent me short-dated product
directly from their Newark warehouse.  Whoever sent me
nearly-expired chems, I'm not going to let it happen again!

I have ordered 30L worth of wide-mouth thick square HDPE
bottles from McMaster-Carr and will just devote the freezer
in my darkroom fridge to E6 chemistry mixed as full kits
of working solutions in .5L or 1L bottles.  That has been
working well for me with C41 since Kodak went to the 2L
developer packaging so hopefully it will work for E6 too.

Signature

Thor Lancelot Simon                                      tls@rek.tjls.com
   "Even experienced UNIX users occasionally enter rm *.* at the UNIX
    prompt only to realize too late that they have removed the wrong
    segment of the directory structure." - Microsoft WSS whitepaper

David Nebenzahl - 29 Jun 2009 21:56 GMT
On 6/29/2009 1:43 PM Thor Lancelot Simon spake thus:

> I have ordered 30L worth of wide-mouth thick square HDPE
> bottles from McMaster-Carr and will just devote the freezer
> in my darkroom fridge to E6 chemistry mixed as full kits
> of working solutions in .5L or 1L bottles.

Just a small note: I thought I'd read that PETE is less permeable than
HDPE, and therefore better for storing photo chemicals. Could be wrong
about that, but if not, maybe you'd want to rethink your storage containers.

Signature

Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Thor Lancelot Simon - 29 Jun 2009 21:56 GMT
>On 6/29/2009 1:43 PM Thor Lancelot Simon spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>HDPE, and therefore better for storing photo chemicals. Could be wrong
>about that, but if not, maybe you'd want to rethink your storage containers.

I believe you're right -- it is less permeable.  But these bottles are
quite thick, and they're square -- I couldn't find square PETE bottles
of the right size at a tolerable price.  I think the wall thickness
and the low temperature will adequately deal with oxidation.

I've been freezing C41 chemistry in Jobo bottles, which are thick HDPE,
for a while now, and it's worked well.  I considered glass bottles,
which are cheaper still, and of course completely impervious to air,
but I don't want to risk a glass bottle full of some nasty organic
compound like E6 reversal bath bursting in the freezer if I overfill
it slightly.

Signature

Thor Lancelot Simon                                      tls@rek.tjls.com
   "Even experienced UNIX users occasionally enter rm *.* at the UNIX
    prompt only to realize too late that they have removed the wrong
    segment of the directory structure." - Microsoft WSS whitepaper

Peter - 30 Jun 2009 01:30 GMT
> In article <4a4929d0$0$18233$82264...@news.adtechcomputers.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>      prompt only to realize too late that they have removed the wrong
>      segment of the directory structure." - Microsoft WSS whitepaper

How much better is it to freeze the chemicals than to keep them at
(say) 40 deg. F?
Thor Lancelot Simon - 30 Jun 2009 01:36 GMT
>How much better is it to freeze the chemicals than to keep them at
>(say) 40 deg. F?

The rule of thumb is that reaction rate doubles with every 10F increase
in temperature, right?  I'd much rather store these sorts of very fickly
solutions at 0F in my freezer than 40F in my fridge.

The downside is that, supposedly, some of the more complex organic
molecules can fractionate out when the solutions are frozen, and then
not go back into solution.  I've never, ever seen it happen with C41
and I hope it doesn't happen with E6.

Signature

Thor Lancelot Simon                                      tls@rek.tjls.com
   "Even experienced UNIX users occasionally enter rm *.* at the UNIX
    prompt only to realize too late that they have removed the wrong
    segment of the directory structure." - Microsoft WSS whitepaper

Peter - 30 Jun 2009 01:53 GMT
> In article <6f78821f-b901-4e75-a518-ce2569a90...@n30g2000vba.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>      prompt only to realize too late that they have removed the wrong
>      segment of the directory structure." - Microsoft WSS whitepaper

Thank you.  Kodak recommends storing mixed solutions only as cold as
40F (not sure why).  I don't see a recommendation for the stock
solution.  It does have accessory (5L) storage bottles.
Thor Lancelot Simon - 30 Jun 2009 03:26 GMT
>Thank you.  Kodak recommends storing mixed solutions only as cold as
>40F (not sure why).  I don't see a recommendation for the stock
>solution.  It does have accessory (5L) storage bottles.

They don't want you to get anywhere near 32F where the solutions might
freeze.  Just below might be worst, actually, since it might be the
best way to fraction out anything with a lower freezing point.  But as
I understand it, the concern is primarily a theoretical one -- I've asked
a few Kodak chemists about it over the years and they could not think of
any studies that directly bore on the question for modern color chemistry.

The 5L storage bottles are not terribly useful as unless you use 5L at a
time, you'll be opening and closing them constantly, introducing air or,
should you freeze the solutions, worse still introducing air *and* freezing
and thawing them.

FWIW, my father, who was at one time a chemical engineer, strongly suggested
not freezing the concentrates, which jibes with my own limited understanding
of the accidental-distillation process which is the basic concern with
freezing the chemistry and with what one acquaintance at Kodak said to me
a few years ago.  Probably worst is that you'd have to freeze and thaw the
concentrate solutions every time you wanted to mix working stock -- not a
good thing.

I expect good results, as I said, freezing the dilute solutions in smaller
containers after mixing the entire 5L kit.  If that turns out to not be
so, I'll mention it here.

Signature

Thor Lancelot Simon                                      tls@rek.tjls.com
   "Even experienced UNIX users occasionally enter rm *.* at the UNIX
    prompt only to realize too late that they have removed the wrong
    segment of the directory structure." - Microsoft WSS whitepaper

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2010 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.