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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / August 2008Dektol formula?
Does anyone have a formula for Kodak Dektol. thanks once again in advance Larry Kriese > Does anyone have a formula for Kodak Dektol. thanks once again in > advance _____ Larry, From Photo-Lab Index 1977 issue, Page 429, Kodak D72 (approximately the some as Dektol) stock solution: Water 500 ml Metol 3 g Sodium sulphite (desic) 45 g Hydroquinone 12 g Sodium carbonate (mono hydr) 80 g Potassium bromide 2 g Water to make 1 liter For paper development, dilute 1:1. Develop for 1 min at 20C. I standardised my time to 2 minutes at 20C when using RC style paper. Others may have additional info regarding this developer. / John  SignatureRegards / JCH > Does anyone have a formula for Kodak Dektol. thanks once > again in > advance > > Larry Kriese The Kodak formula D-72 is essentially the same as Dektol. Dektol probably contains some ingredients not in the published formula such as sequestering agents to prevent trouble from dissolved salts in the water and whatever Kodak does to allow the combination of all the ingredients in a single powder. However, D-72 should have the same performance. Kodak D-72 Stock Solution Water (at about 125F or 52C) 500.0 ml Metol 3.1 grams Sodium sulfite, dessicated 45.0 grams Hydroquinone 12.0 grams Sodium carbonate, dessicated 67.5 grams Potassium bromide 1.9 grams Water to make 1.0 liter Dissolve all chemicals in the order given. For use with most modern papers dilute one part stock with 2 parts water. Nearly every manuacturer of printing paper had some version of this formula. Source: Kodak Reference Handbook, 2nd edition. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com > Does anyone have a formula for Kodak Dektol. thanks once again in > advance > > Larry Kriese > Does anyone have a formula for Kodak Dektol. thanks once again in > advance _____ Larry, Tiny correction. First amount of water should be hot at 50C. Order of chemicals to dissolve is important. From Photo-Lab Index 1977 issue, Page 429, Kodak D72 (approximately the same as Dektol) stock solution: Water at 50C 500 ml Metol 3 g Sodium sulphite (desic) 45 g Hydroquinone 12 g Sodium carbonate (mono hydr) 80 g Potassium bromide 2 g Water to make 1 liter Dissolve chemicals in order given. For paper development, dilute 1:1 or 1:2. Develop for 1 min at 20C. I standardised my time to 2 minutes at 20C when using RC style paper. Others may have additional info regarding this developer. / John SignatureRegards / JCH >> Does anyone have a formula for Kodak Dektol. thanks once >> again in [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > / John Note the difference in the amount of carbonate in this formula vs the one I posted. That is due to the hydration specified. Older Kodak formulas usually specified anhydrous (same as dessicated) carbonate while some later ones and most Agfa formulae specify monohydrated. The amount of monohydrated carbonate must be larger. Some very old British formulae specify crystalline carbonate but I've never seen a US or German formula that did so. Crystalline carbonate is not very stable being deliquescent. Monohydrated is the most stable form but anhydrous, if kept in a closed bottle, is about as stable. The amount of bromide specified is about the minimum to control fog without reducing paper speed. However, considerably more bromide, up to perhaps 12 grams per liter, can be added to get a somewhat warmer tone or to control fog on old paper. In the long ago Kodak indicated dilutions of anywhere from stock to 1:4 for various materials but more current instructions are to use 1:2 for nearly all paper. 1:1 will develop a bit faster and has greater capacity. RC papers with incorporated developer will usually develop fully in one minute but both RC paper without incorporated developer and fiber base papers want 2 to 3 minutes. Exposure should be based on a development time of about 2 minutes for these papers. Dektol/D-72 also works for film where either somewhat high contast or very fast development is wanted but the trade off is that its grainy. It was common in old time newspaper offices to use the same developer for both film and prints, typically D-72 at 1:2. There are much better film developers but those who want grain as a special effect should try it. Development of modern films will be very fast. There are many variations on D-72 but, for the most part, they have little practical difference. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com >It was common in old time > newspaper offices to use the same developer for both film > and prints, typically D-72 at 1:2. There are much better > film developers but those who want grain as a special effect > should try it. Development of modern films will be very > fast. Didn't Kodak sell a Tri-Chem Pack, which was Dektol, stop bath and fixer powders? I have not used one in about 40 years, but I seem to vagely remember there being different dilution for film. I may be wrong and can't find anything by searching for it except people selling old ones and unanswered questions. Kodak's web page was no help. Searching for "tri chem pack" found nothing and I was offered a suggestion to search for "try chem pack" and "tri-chem pack" gave me nothing and a suggestion for "gedrukt pack". Don't they have a historical list of products anywhere on their web site? Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM >>It was common in old time >> newspaper offices to use the same developer for both film [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Geoff. I remember the TriChem packages. I don't know the time frame they were sold, but I used them in the late 1960's-early '70's. The foil package had enough chems for one roll of film or several prints. They were also sold in "beginner's" kits, usually a film tank, three trays, a contact print frame, a red light bulb, twenty five sheets of 4x5 paper and a tri-chem pack. Thinking about how little B&W processing I do these days, if they were still available, I'd probabl buy them! I've processed film in Dektol, usually for newspaper work years ago. As I recall, my time was about 1/3 that of D-76 (1:1) with a 1:2 dilution. It worked well because the grain wasn't an issue and the newspaper wanted high contrast. >>>It was common in old time >>> newspaper offices to use the same developer for both [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > grain wasn't an issue and the newspaper wanted high > contrast. I'm not sure of the date of the Tri-Chem-Pak but I used them in the late 1940's or early 1950's. There was a predecessor but I don't remember what it was called. I think the earlier version may have used D-72 as the universal developer. I will have to do some research on this. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com > I think the earlier version may have used D-72 as the universal developer. > I will have to do some research on this. The Kodak ABC Photo Lab came with 'Universal MQ Developer'. The earlier ones came with the developer in tablets, they were packaged in a tube like cough lozenges. Later ones came with the developer in a foil package stapled inside a cardboard cover, like an oversize pack of matches. The fixer was in a can, though I have vague memories of a small paper pack of fix. I used Tri-Chem packs c. 1960. For some reason it has stuck in my head the developer was Dektol and labeled as such. "Versatol" was, I believe, a liquid. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index2.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com >> I think the earlier version may have used D-72 as the >> universal developer. I will have to do some research on [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > "Versatol" was, I believe, a liquid. I think you are right about the Versatol. The stuff I used was in the small foil packets packed in a cardboard wrapper like paper matches. I don't go back quite far enough for the tablet developers but they appear to have been popular in the 1930s and 1940s, perhaps even earlier. Tabloid was one brand name. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com snip > I think you are right about the Versatol. The stuff I used was in the > small foil packets packed in a cardboard wrapper like paper matches. I > don't go back quite far enough for the tablet developers but they appear > to have been popular in the 1930s and 1940s, perhaps even earlier. Tabloid > was one brand name. I have a Kodak Autographic with instruction book. In the back of the book are various darkroom items, among them a picture of the tablet type developer. It looks sort of like a roll of LifeSavers. >>It was common in old time >> newspaper offices to use the same developer for both film [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Geoff. The developer in the Tri-Chem-Pack was something Kodak called Versatol. It was not quite Dektol but something a bit milder that was suitable for both film and paper. I don't think there was a formula for anything quite like it. I think I used a Tri-Chem-Pack for the very first film I developed. My dad bought a Kodak darkroom in a box which had some Tri-Chem-Packs, a small package of Velox, three small trays, a ruby lamp, a couple of film clips and some other stuff. I can see the film coming up in my mind to this day. Kodak has a list of cameras and, at one time, a list of discontined roll film sizes, but I don't remember seeing a list of products. In any case, the company appears to have lost any sense of its own history at this point and has scattered whatever documents it had to various oranizations, mostly GEH and RIT. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com Richard Knoppow wrote (in part): > In the long ago Kodak indicated dilutions of anywhere > from stock to 1:4 for various materials but more current [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > be based on a development time of about 2 minutes for these > papers. The use of more concentrated dilutions of D72 and Dektol can be understood if you refer to Dr. Henry's tests of dilutions. He found that if you diluted more than 1+2, the Dmax was reduced (although the lower densities were less affected). At a dilution of 1+15 he lost an entire stop of density. This is shown on page 92 of the second edition of his book, "Controls in Black and White Photography." It is my guess that in the old days, photographic paper did not reach these densities (2.4) so the fall off was less noticeable. Signature.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 07:05:01 up 6 days, 13:11, 3 users, load average: 4.28, 4.15, 4.04 > Does anyone have a formula for Kodak Dektol. thanks once again in > advance > > Larry Kriese This is, I trust, a largely intellectual exercise. Last I checked Dektol was neither hard to find nor expensive. And it comes neatly packaged. SignatureMichael On 8/13/2008 4:16 PM Michael spake thus: >> Does anyone have a formula for Kodak Dektol. thanks once again in >> advance > > This is, I trust, a largely intellectual exercise. Last I checked > Dektol was neither hard to find nor expensive. And it comes neatly > packaged. Yes; I've always wondered why people are after such information as this. I can see wanting formulas for pyro developers and other exotic stuff, but Dektol? Just go out and buy it. Do people actually mix their own? Signature"Wikipedia ... it reminds me ... of dogs barking idiotically through endless nights. It is so bad that a sort of grandeur creeps into it. It drags itself out of the dark abyss of pish, and crawls insanely up the topmost pinnacle of posh. It is rumble and bumble. It is flap and doodle. It is balder and dash." - With apologies to H. L. Mencken > On 8/13/2008 4:16 PM Michael spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I can see wanting formulas for pyro developers and other exotic stuff, > but Dektol? Just go out and buy it. Do people actually mix their own? Possibly if they live in places where you cannot buy Dektol. But in such places, I would wonder if you could get all the components. Sulphite might be OK, as might the carbonate. But the paramethylaminosulphate and the hydroquinone? Signature.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 05:55:01 up 7 days, 12:01, 4 users, load average: 4.08, 4.34, 4.27 > Possibly if they live in places where you cannot buy Dektol. But in such > places, I would wonder if you could get all the components. Sulphite might > be OK, as might the carbonate. But the paramethylaminosulphate and the > hydroquinone? Sulphite can be bought at a pool supply. From my experience, several people have heard of one near here, but no one actually knows where it is, what it is called, and how it is listed (if it is listed at all) in the phone book. Carbonate is not available here as washing soda, but someone who makes soap gave me the name of a company that sells sodium hydroxide and may sell carbonate too. Paramethylaminosulphate and hydroquinone, would have to be imported in someone's luggage, but you might be able to get it if it can be sent via airmail and the customs people don't get upset. My guess is that by the time you paid for postage, taxes, customs clearing, etc, it would cost over $100 for the equivalent of 1 liter of developer. As an aside, I once tried to make "tylenol" developer, and gave up because of the price. Although the world's largest manufacturer of generic drugs is located here, the price of them over the counter is too high to make it worth it. Due to socialized medicine, I can get a bottle of 50 with a prescription for about $3-$4, but enough to make developer out of would be too expensive. There is no equivalent of Sam's Club or Costco selling bottles of 500. :-( Someday when I have time to spend, I may experiment with a coffee developer. The ingredients are easy to find and if I give up, I can drink the unused main ingredient. Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM On 8/14/2008 2:56 AM Jean-David Beyer spake thus: >> On 8/13/2008 4:16 PM Michael spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > be OK, as might the carbonate. But the paramethylaminosulphate and the > hydroquinone? So where in the world besides Israel can one *not* readily obtain Dektol (or Ilford's equivalent)? Geoff Mendelson's travails notwithstanding, I'm pretty sure it's easily available in most places in the U.S., in Yurp, and in the rest of the UK. Signature"Wikipedia ... it reminds me ... of dogs barking idiotically through endless nights. It is so bad that a sort of grandeur creeps into it. It drags itself out of the dark abyss of pish, and crawls insanely up the topmost pinnacle of posh. It is rumble and bumble. It is flap and doodle. It is balder and dash." - With apologies to H. L. Mencken >On 8/13/2008 4:16 PM Michael spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I can see wanting formulas for pyro developers and other exotic stuff, >but Dektol? Just go out and buy it. Do people actually mix their own? I don't mix Dektol - D-72 - because I use a modified Ansco 130 for prints. You don't really need a huge assortment of chemicals on hand to mix just about any developer, film or print, that you may want to try. As far as going out & buying it, the closest place to me that MIGHT have it in stock is 50 miles away. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant. Speak softly and carry a loaded .45 Lifetime member; Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Web Site: www.destarr.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - On 8/14/2008 2:44 PM David Starr spake thus: >>On 8/13/2008 4:16 PM Michael spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > developer, film or print, that you may want to try. As far as going out & > buying it, the closest place to me that MIGHT have it in stock is 50 miles away. Whereas the places you buy the chemicals to mix it are how far away? Signature"In 1964 Barry Goldwater declared: 'Elect me president, and I will bomb the cities of Vietnam, defoliate the jungles, herd the population into concentration camps and turn the country into a wasteland.' But Lyndon Johnson said: 'No! No! No! Don't you dare do that. Let ME do it.'" - Characterization (paraphrased) of the 1964 Goldwater/Johnson presidential race by Professor Irwin Corey, "The World's Foremost Authority". > This is, I trust, a largely intellectual exercise. Last I checked > Dektol was neither hard to find nor expensive. And it comes neatly > packaged. Maybe for you. Outside of the U.S., and maybe Canada, it is not easy to find. Besides the fact that black and white developing products and film have all but disapeared from stores (a sad comment, not the start of a debate), on this side of the world Kodak products were never popular. They were available, and Kodak color film and digital cameras are common, but there was a lot more Ilford, Agfa and Tetnal than Kodak. You can't mail order it. Since 9/11 it can't be shipped air mail, and international surface mail has all but disapeared. The only way I could get my hands on anything less than a container load would be to convince someone moving here to stuff a few cans in their container of household goods. Now that the boat portion of international shipping has almost doubled in price, that's almost impossible. I am lucky in a way because there is an art school here that considers itself "world class", and insists that their students learn film photgraphy. This supports a single camera store's ability to stock things like 120 film, Holga's (at $75 each for the one without flash), and a few bottles of liquid developing chemicals. The day they drop film photography completely, there will be no supplies sold in the entire country. :-( Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM |
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