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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / May 2008How many volumn of solution do I need to smoothly process print paper in a 12x16 tray?
How many volumn of solution do I need at least to smoothly process print paper in a 12x16 tray? I am afraid my 2 liter bottle is not enough to do this. Thanks. - woody > How many volumn of solution do I need at least to smoothly process > print paper in a 12x16 tray? I am afraid my 2 liter bottle is not > enough to do this. Thanks. > > - > woody How much you really need is somewhat dependent on the tray and your technique. I have a very smooth and flat 8x10 tray and can actually do fine with 100 ml., although I often use a bit more. Your tray is about 2.5 times the area. If it is smooth and flat and you are not much more clumsy than me, you should be able to do it with 300 ml. Even so, 500 ml should be generous. If your tray has, for example, deep grooves as some of my larger trays do, you will need a bit more. Why not take a sheet of plain white paper the size you will use and try a test? Put your best estimate of the amount you will need of water in the tray and try to keep the paper wet (in daylight so you can see what is going on). What you need to do is keep the paper wet and the upper side fully in contact with fresh developer by agitation. Generally speaking the runway behind you is of no practical use in an airplane and the liquid (more than a few molecules) above the paper is not of much use, either. Still, you have to keep it evenly wet and circulating (normally with intermittent agitation) for even development. A problem that occurs when trying to use the minimum developer is initially wetting the paper evenly. There is a bit of surface tension in liquids and some curling in older paper. Consequently, I deal with this (usually) by tipping the tray and putting an edge of the paper first in the deep end while lowering the tray so the developer flows over the paper. Sometimes (particularly if there is a lot of curl) I simply put it in emulsion side down for a few seconds and then turn it over with a few seconds of continuous agitation. Either can work. > > How many volumn of solution do I need at least to smoothly process > > print paper in a 12x16 tray? I am afraid my 2 liter bottle is not [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > technique. I have a very smooth and flat 8x10 tray and can actually > do fine with 100 ml., although I often use a bit more. only 2mm deep, amazing! > Your tray is > about 2.5 times the area. If it is smooth and flat and you are not [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > simply put it in emulsion side down for a few seconds and then turn it > over with a few seconds of continuous agitation. Either can work. Thanks a lot with your information. Now I come with confidence ready to buy and use some 12x16 papers. - woody >Generally speaking the runway behind you is of no practical use in an >airplane and the liquid (more than a few molecules) above the paper is >not of much use, either. Still, you have to keep it evenly wet and >circulating (normally with intermittent agitation) for even >development. Are you using your developer one-shot, or reusing it? With such small solution volumes you run the risk of changes to the paper's characteristic curve because the developer itself can become exhausted over the course of developing a single sheet of paper, giving different contrast in shadows, midtones, and highlights.  SignatureThor Lancelot Simon tls@rek.tjls.com "The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky > In article <3af4c15b-53eb-4aaa-b2d3-a0fe88e2a...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > "The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to > be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky Perhaps I should have mentioned that point, as well. I understood he was asking what the minimum was. I often make only a few prints and then might only use 100 or 150 ml for an 8x10. If I will print all day, I would use more and might add developer. Even so, 2 liters is way more than needed for quite a few 12x16's (each eq. to 2.5 sheets of 8x10). Kodak gives a fair summary of the capacity of their solutions. > In article <3af4c15b-53eb-4aaa-b2d3-a0fe88e2a...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > of developing a single sheet of paper, giving different contrast in shadows, > midtones, and highlights. oh.. i thnk i lost the answer. i think i should ask this way: what's the usual height of solution required for smoothly develop 16x20 papers in tray? i hope this way you experts can understand me better. >> In article >> <3af4c15b-53eb-4aaa-b2d3-a0fe88e2a...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > 16x20 papers in tray? i hope this way you experts can understand me > better. There are two answers: 1. You have to use enough chemistry to make the chemical reaction work. With most developers, this isn't an issue, but with very small quantity of developer it is possible to exhaust the chemical after a lot of prints. The manufacturer's specifications will tell you how many prints can be made with a certain amount of chemical. 2. You have to use enough chemical to quickly wet the paper. If you use a very small amount, it will be difficult to get the developer to flow over the entire surface evenly. My trays have very tiny ridges on the bottom. I like to have at keast about 1/2" of developer in the tray. (I use developer one-shot and throw it away after a session). I like to have the stop bath and fixer trays nearly half full. I re-use those chemicals. On 5/1/2008 3:06 AM Steven Woody spake thus: >> In article <3af4c15b-53eb-4aaa-b2d3-a0fe88e2a...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 16x20 papers in tray? i hope this way you experts can understand me > better. Since nobody else here can seem to understand, let alone answer, what's basically a simple question, might I suggest that you answer it yourself? Assuming you have the trays you want to use, just fill them with water to the minimum height you think you'll need, then pour out the water and measure it. (If you don't actually have those trays, then you'll have to do a volume calculation, based on the area of the tray multiplied by the height of the developer solution, which you can again determine empirically.) This is what you wanted to know, right? SignatureThe best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. - Attributed to Winston Churchill > On 5/1/2008 3:06 AM Steven Woody spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > This is what you wanted to know, right? Dear David, I think you don't understand. My problem is actually that I am not sure what the solution height is safe to smoothly processing paper. I want to use 1mm to get minimal soution volumn, but everyone knows that 1mm is not safe, I can use 30mm to ensure it's safe, but you know 30mm means almost 4 liter for a 12x16 tray. So, my question is just the solution height, without the heigth, I can not do any experiment or calulation. By reading replies in this thread, I now think 12mm is a safe solution heigth. So, I need 1.5 liter for 12x16 or 1.2 liter for 11x14. On 5/3/2008 6:38 PM Steven Woody spake thus: >> Since nobody else here can seem to understand, let alone answer, what's >> basically a simple question, might I suggest that you answer it [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > think 12mm is a safe solution heigth. So, I need 1.5 liter for 12x16 > or 1.2 liter for 11x14. I still don't see why you can't determine the volume you need by simple experimentation; you only need enough solution to cover the paper completely, which should be very easy to determine visually. Forget "solution height" in mm; just figure out how much liquid it takes to completely submerge a piece of paper. We're not talking about high-precision processing here. SignatureThe best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. - Attributed to Winston Churchill > On 5/3/2008 6:38 PM Steven Woody spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > - Attributed to Winston Churchill Thank you. This makes sense: "Yonly need enough solution to cover the paper > completely“．I can determine it visually after I decide and buy in the trays :) > On 5/3/2008 6:38 PM Steven Woody spake thus: > I still don't see why you can't determine the volume you need by simple > experimentation; you only need enough solution to cover the paper > completely, which should be very easy to determine visually. Forget > "solution height" in mm; just figure out how much liquid it takes to > completely submerge a piece of paper. We're not talking about > high-precision processing here. Forget reason some people- especially "photo" people are anal in the worse ways. SignatureReality is a picture perfected and never looking back. > Forget reason some people- especially "photo" people are anal in the > worse ways. In precisely what worse ways? In excruciating detail, please. On 5/5/2008 7:50 PM Pico spake thus: >> Forget reason some people- especially "photo" people are anal in the >> worse ways. > > In precisely what worse ways? In excruciating detail, please. Wrong newsgroup for that. SignatureThe best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. - Attributed to Winston Churchill > On 5/5/2008 7:50 PM Pico spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Wrong newsgroup for that. ooooh. Wrong darkroom. > A problem that occurs when trying to use the minimum > developer is initially wetting the paper evenly. Pre-wetting the paper is another way when using minimal solution volumes. A minute or two will do. Pour out the water, pour in the developer. I process using one-shot very dilute, developer and fix, no stop. My solution volumes are the surface area of the paper in square inches times four equals the volume in ml. Likely three times would still provide easy processing; eg, 8x10, 240ml - 12x16, 576ml A second tray is used for holding. The processing and hold trays are used for alternate tray washing. Dan On May 4, 7:31 am, dan.c.qu...@att.net wrote: > > A problem that occurs when trying to use the minimum > > developer is initially wetting the paper evenly. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > A second tray is used for holding. The processing and > hold trays are used for alternate tray washing. Dan that means you use 50 mm heigth of solution. > On May 4, 7:31 am, dan.c.qu...@att.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > that means you use 50 mm heigth of solution. sorry, typo. i meant to say 5mm. >> A problem that occurs when trying to use the minimum >> developer is initially wetting the paper evenly. > >Pre-wetting the paper is another way when using minimal >solution volumes. A minute or two will do. Pour out the water, >pour in the developer. This is a very bad idea, as a general-purpose development technique -- it will dramatically change the characteristic curve of the paper, or, at least, the papers I was using when I tried it (Kodabromide III, and the last-generation Oriental-manufactured Seagull the second time I gave it a shot) exhibited this effect unless given extremely long development times. SignatureThor Lancelot Simon tls@rek.tjls.com "The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky > <dan.c.qu...@att.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of the paper, or, at least, the papers I was using when I tried it > Thor Lancelot Simon I'd suppose the same could be said for pre-wetted film although I've never heard it mentioned. In both instances one might think of pre-wetting as water bath development but with one pre-development bath. Perhaps my use of very dilute one-shot developer and some what extended development times preclude the effect. Usually I've enough solution volume so skip pre-wetting. IMO, one wetting couldn't possibly make any more than an insignificant difference; taking into account my very watery developer. I will though look out for pre-wet effects. Dan Some paper has developer in the emulsion coating. Wouldn't it be washed out with pre-soaking? On 5/4/2008 6:24 PM Pico spake thus: > Some paper has developer in the emulsion coating. Wouldn't it be washed out > with pre-soaking? It would be activated, not washed out. No doubt one of the things that contributes to the ill effects Thor commented on. SignatureThe best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. - Attributed to Winston Churchill > On 5/4/2008 6:24 PM Pico spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It would be activated, not washed out. No doubt one of the > things that contributes to the ill effects Thor commented on. Two points: First; papers with developer incorporated are intended for ACTIVATOR processing. Thay can be processed in a bath of sodium carbonate. Second; just try and find a paper with developer incorporated. Over the years I've tested well over a half dozen, VC RC, Graded RC, VC FB, Graded FB, and found NONE. In a word, for most purposes developer incorporate papers are NON-EXISTANT. Dan On May 4, 6:39 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote: > [...] In a word, for most purposes developer incorporate papers are > NON-EXISTANT. Dan - that's great news and very much appreciated. > How many volumn of solution do I need at least to smoothly process > print paper in a 12x16 tray? I am afraid my 2 liter bottle is not > enough to do this. Thanks. Two liters should do even if it represents the diluted solution. If your concern is the capacity of the solution, how many prints you can make with it, then we need to know the developer in use. Fresh developer, of course. Stop (if you use it) and fixers (2 baths) will work. It's best in a situation with little solution to use a tray that has a flat bottom, or minimal expressions. Take care not to let the paper get 'stuck' to the bottom. (Stiction to be technical.) Drifting a bit - I was lucky to have aquired several NIB 8"x10" curved (commonly called 'canoe' shaped) stainless trays intended for processing color paper. They are stainless in part to conduct heat, but they clean up nicely too. They won't fit your paper unless you were speaking of centimeters. They permit the use of very little chemistry. One 'rocks' the tray on it's curved bottom. I use them for sheet film. One-shot chemistry. In article <cc2e6d67-59d8-46e6-8a0f-44dddcd9271d@l28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > How many volumn of solution do I need at least to smoothly process > print paper in a 12x16 tray? I am afraid my 2 liter bottle is not > enough to do this. Thanks. > > - > woody 2 liters is easily enough but it depends how many sheets. One liter should be adequate for about 25 B&W FB based prints in an 11x14 tray. SignatureReality is a picture perfected and never looking back. |
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