 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| PhotoKB HomeDiscussion Groups Digital Photography Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot CamerasFilm Photography 35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther EquipmentPhoto Technique Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique GeneralGeneral Photo Topics General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK PhotographyDirectoryPhoto Clubs |
Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / January 2008Color printing paper
I'm very much interested in color printing with enlarger and I would like to ask some questions to experts of this group 1- Which 4x5" films are actually available for color printing? 2- Which color paper is available for color printing using conventional darkroom enlargers? According my search through US distributors I only find Fujicolor Cristal and Kodak Supra Endura and I understand kodak will finish production of it very soon. Is there any other option? 3- I pretend to buy a reasonable quantity of color paper boxes and stock it into my fridge but how much time can survive color paper without degradation into a fridge? What temperature should be the most adequate? 4- Is there any real risk during air transport to my country due to possible x-ray inspection? Greetings -Francesc >I'm very much interested in color printing with enlarger and I would >like to ask some questions to experts of this group Good god, why? I still do wet darkroom work in black and white, but color printing with an enlarger offers basically no advantages over digital printing, requires annoying work with smelly chemicals at high temperatures, gives inferior sharpness and image permanence, and has a host of other drawbacks. I would certainly not start doing it now. >1- Which 4x5" films are actually available for color printing? I asssume you want to know which 4x5 color negative films are still available? Kodak offers two ISO 160 films, Portra 160NC (a low- contrast portrait film optimized for skin tones) and 160VC (a "vivid color" film optimized for, well, let's just say I don't care for it), as well as one ISO 400 film, Portra 400NC, which has moderate contrast, good color rendering, good reciprocity characteristics -- it's pretty much my favorite color negative film I've ever used. Fuji offers an ISO 160 portrait film, but I don't care for it. When I did a lot of architectural use I used it from time to time because for some reason it gives surprisingly printable negatives when exposed under fluorescent light. There are many color slide films still available in 4x5 but, ironically, none of the high-speed ones, which is the only reason I still shoot any color negative film at all. These days the easiest way to get high quality color prints is to shoot slide film and scan it. Good options in 4x5 are Fuji Astia and Provia; if you want eye-popping color you could try Fuji Velvia or Kodak 100VS.  SignatureThor Lancelot Simon tls@rek.tjls.com "The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky > In article <1193354398.473439.91...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > high temperatures, gives inferior sharpness and image permanence, and > has a host of other drawbacks. I would certainly not start doing it now. Thank you very much for your advice. After thinking about it I realize you are right and i will go to digital. I repeat many thanks?? -Francesc On Oct 26, 5:35 am, t...@panix.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) wrote: > In article <1193354398.473439.91...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > high temperatures, gives inferior sharpness and image permanence, and > has a host of other drawbacks. I would certainly not start doing it now. Thank you very much for your advice. After thinking about it I realize you are right and i will go to digital. I repeat many thanks¡¡ -Francesc Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. I enjoy 'wet' darkroom work in color. But then I have a roller transport processing system that maintains chemical temperature and replenishment. Such machines are available in all sizes and configurations, from tabletop to full-fledged minilabs (mine is an old Hope built in 1984). As for sharpness, that's a function of the lenses used (camera and enlarger); and for image permanence, Kodak rate their Endura line of papers at 200 years in the dark or 100 years in the light. The first thing to remember in color printing is get the density (light/dark) right, then adjust the color. Never try to make a color judgement on a priont that is too light or too dark. The second thing to remember is to write stuff down. Use a "sharpie" brand marker (or similar waterproof/permanent marker) to write your color filter settings on the test print. If the second test print looks worse, then you can easily go back to the earlier settings. For me, the cost of making one 16"x20" print is about $2.00 (2- 1/4 sheet test prints and 1 full sheet, plus chems) and the time is about a half hour (dry-to-dry time is ten minutes, times three prints). Ken, I can tell you I also enjoyed in the past darkroom color printing but today its like trying to swim in a river against the main stream?? I can tell you some of inmediate problems I would have. -My enlarger is a 6x6 cm but now I want to use 4x5" film This means I have to buy a second hand enlarger Although I can find very cheap ones in USA I have to pay more than $350 for transport to my country Spain + $500 for enlarger -In my country it is only available Endura color paper with 85m rolls. No boxes of Kodak cut papers available nor Fuji. I talked with Kodak branch in my country and they suggested their color paper will not be available very soon?? In front of these difficulties comon sense tells me I must go to digital in spite of my natural tendency??? Greetings -Francesc > Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. I enjoy 'wet' darkroom work in color. > But then I have a roller transport processing system that maintains chemical [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > test prints and 1 full sheet, plus chems) and the time is about a half hour > (dry-to-dry time is ten minutes, times three prints). >In my country it is only available Endura color paper with 85m rolls. >No boxes of Kodak cut papers available nor Fuji. I talked with Kodak >branch in my country and they suggested their color paper will not be >available very soon I find this very hard to believe. Many digital printing machines including those used for high-volume prints from digital originals by large photofinishers use RA4 color paper as their output medium. I disagree with Ken about the relative permanence of RA4 versus inkjet prints (I think I'm hardly the only one skeptical of Kodak's permanence claims for color materials; Wilhelm became famous for his 1,000 page book on the subject) but these machines make beautiful prints from both analog and digital originals, much sharper than can be made by optical enlargement. I think RA4 paper will be one of the very last silver process photographic products to disappear. Single sheets of color paper in boxes, sure. I'm somewhat surprised it's possible to buy those even now. But you may have been misinformed by whomever at Kodak you spoke with. SignatureThor Lancelot Simon tls@rek.tjls.com "The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky > Single sheets of color paper in boxes, sure. I'm somewhat surprised it's > possible to buy those even now. But you may have been misinformed by > whomever at Kodak you spoke with. I doubt it. Kodak is not big outside of the U.S. and in Spain their sales may be low enough not to bother. Almost all of the photofinishers here used Agfa paper, and I'm sure they have not switched to Kodak. Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ > > Single sheets of color paper in boxes, sure. I'm somewhat surprised it's > > possible to buy those even now. But you may have been misinformed by [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Geoff. "Used" is an operative word, Agfa is DOA. Who makes color paper besides Fuji and Kodak? If need be I hope Fuji wins, because Kodak will surely discontinue it based on shareholder pandering. At least Fuji speaks the good fight on traditional imagery support :) As an American I would like to see American products succeed, it's just some business models truly suck! SignatureReality is a picture perfected and never looking back. On 12/31/2007 5:04 PM ____ spake thus: >> > Single sheets of color paper in boxes, sure. I'm somewhat surprised it's >> > possible to buy those even now. But you may have been misinformed by [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > As an American I would like to see American products succeed, it's just > some business models truly suck! We lost that battle long ago. All hail our new Chinese masters! (as well as Indian, Indonesian, etc.) > We lost that battle long ago. All hail our new Chinese masters! (as well > as Indian, Indonesian, etc.) The American consumer dictates who currently his master is, seldom is it the Master of personal restraint. Who made your Big screen TV :) ? SignatureReality is a picture perfected and never looking back. > In article <slrnfij25m.pul....@cable.mendelson.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "Used" is an operative word, Agfa is DOA. Who makes color paper besides > Fuji and Kodak? Well, Agfa is not completely dead, you can still find films, chemicals, mini-labs, etc ... These activities have been splitted amongs various companies which sells them under the brand Agfa: http://www.agfaphoto.com Future is still uncertain, for sure. Ilford markets Ilfochrome (last remaining direct positive process) and Ilfocolor ... Konica I suppose too and most probably others. > If need be I hope Fuji wins, because Kodak will surely > discontinue it based on shareholder pandering. At least Fuji speaks the > good fight on traditional imagery support :) It's true Kodak made several claims pro-digital which were mostly directed to their shareholders and convince them kodak will be part of the digital era. As they marketed new films recently, maybe these communication needs are lower. > As an American I would like to see American products succeed, it's just > some business models truly suck! I would prefer silver-based stuff continue to exist wherever they come from ... > -- > Reality is a picture perfected and never looking back. Claudio Bonavolta http://www.bonavolta.ch >> "Used" is an operative word, Agfa is DOA. Who makes color paper besides >> Fuji and Kodak? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > http://www.agfaphoto.com > Future is still uncertain, for sure. A couple of years ago, Agfa was split up into two or three companies, one of which (AgfaPhoto) immediately failed. AgfaPhoto was the one that made consumer films and papers. When they failed, their assets were sold. An outfit called A&O bought their chemical division, but my understanding is that the facilities used to make RA-4 paper and C-41 film have already been dismantled, and AFAIK nobody is interested in producing them elsewhere. (A smaller outfit is working to resurrect some AgfaPhoto B&W products, but they have no plans to make any color materials.) There are still stocks of the old AgfaPhoto products being sold; the Web site to which you refer seems to be advertising them. I didn't see any RA-4 papers on that site, though. To the best of my knowledge, the remaining Agfa divisions don't make RA-4 paper, although they do make B&W and C-41 films for non-consumer uses (they sell them for traffic cameras and the like), and some of these get repackaged by other companies. > Ilford markets Ilfochrome (last remaining direct positive process) and > Ilfocolor ... Ilford also split a while back. Ilford Harman is the UK company that makes B&W products. The other Ilford makes Ilfochrome, but I *THINK* that Ilfocolor (their RA-4 product) has been discontinued. Certainly I don't know of any retailer that sells it. Note that Ilfochrome is useful only for making prints from slides and it's ridiculously expensive (100 sheets of 8.5x11-inch paper costs $260 at B&H, for instance). > Konica I suppose too and most probably others. Konica withdrew from the photographic film and paper business about a year ago. You might still find a few Konica products in the supply chain, but not much is left by now, and what is left will be short-dated or out of date. To the best of my knowledge, there are no other RA-4 paper manufacturers left in the world -- just Kodak and Fuji. >> If need be I hope Fuji wins, because Kodak will surely >> discontinue it based on shareholder pandering. At least Fuji speaks the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > As they marketed new films recently, maybe these communication needs > are lower. One important saving grace for RA-4 is that it's used by many photofinishers (both minilabs and bigger Internet/mail-order outfits) with digital printing hardware. This means that even digital camera users often end up with RA-4 prints. My understanding is that RA-4 is more cost-effective than competing technologies when operated on a large enough scale. This means that RA-4 stands a chance of surviving for quite a while, and as long as RA-4 products for commercial photofinishers are available, home darkroom users should be able to obtain them, albeit perhaps not in the most convenient formats. OTOH, if the economics change, photofinishers could abandon RA-4, which could be disastrous. SignatureRod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking ><snip> > Ilford also split a while back. Ilford Harman is the UK company that makes [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > for making prints from slides and it's ridiculously expensive (100 sheets > of 8.5x11-inch paper costs $260 at B&H, for instance). A couple of comments on Ilford: - the "Ilford" brand owner owner is the swiss company (i.e. ILFORD Imaging Switzerland GmbH) bought in 2005 by the japanese OJI papers. - Harman Technologies Ltd (the UK Ilford) can use (I don't know the legal term) the "Ilford" brand name for their silver-based B/W products. If you look at the Harman products line, you can see the "old" products labelled "Ilford", the recent paper developers (warmtone and cooltone) labelled as "Harman-Ilford" and their new inkjet line as "Harman" only as they would directly compete with the swiss Ilford. Just called the factory this morning: Ilfocolor and Ilfochrome are still produced ... http://www.ilford.com/en/products/ilfocolor/index.asp http://www.ilford.com/en/products/ilfochrome/index.asp Both products are high quality papers and thus the higher price. That's also the reason you can't find them everywhere ... They are also meant to fit some niches like display or transparent materials. Both are also (I should say mostly) used in digital printing and, as Ilfochrome is probably the most stable color paper remaining, another use is for archival digital printing. ><snip> > -- > Rod Smith, rodsm...@rodsbooks.comhttp://www.rodsbooks.com > Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking Claudio Bonavolta http://www.bonavolta.ch > 4- Is there any real risk during air transport to my country due to > possible x-ray inspection? Since you did not say from where you are buying the paper and where it is going, it is not possible to say. However, if you are ordering from the U.S., then it is likely that the U.S.P.S. will do some sort of inspection, such as X-Ray's or the new gamma ray scanners which let them look at an entire cargo container at once. Obviously, I can't even guess what will happen while it is traveling, or when it arrives. FedEx, UPS, and DHL claim they never X-Ray packages, but to be honest, I would not trust them 100%. It's always better to ask them about shipments from a particular place to you to make sure and buy the extra insurance, if it is offered. Here packages sent via the postal system arrive without import duty if they are relatively cheap. Anything sent by courier (such as FedEx, etc) is taxed at the highest rate they can get away with, which includes the cost of the item, shipping, clearing fees, etc. YMMV. Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ In article <1193354398.473439.91910@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, fnm@gmail.com fnovau@gmail.com says... > I'm very much interested in color printing with enlarger and I would > like to ask some questions to experts of this group [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > 4- Is there any real risk during air transport to my country due to > possible x-ray inspection? Why order from the US when you will have to pay duty and shipments are more likely to be scanned? There can't be many suppplies you can get from the US that aren't available in the EU. use a heat seal bag if heat, use a cold seal bag if cold, etc. > I'm very much interested in color printing with enlarger and I would > like to ask some questions to experts of this group [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Greetings > -Francesc |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2009 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.