Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / September 2007
102 Print Developer
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Lloyd Erlick - 20 Sep 2007 21:41 GMT September 20, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,
I've been having beautiful results on Ilford Warmtone FB material (MGW) with this developer...
Prints are gorgeous after selenium toning. (I use KRST diluted 1+5, for ten minutes, at about 32-34C.)
____________________________________ 102 Print Developer (Original due to Edmund Lowe) Potassium Version, Working Solution.
Distilled Water 1000 ml at working temperature.
Potassium Sulfite Anhydrous 15 g
Potassium Phosphate 32 g Tribasic monohydrate
Glycin 6 g
Potassium Bromide 5 g ______________________________________
Richard Knoppow - 21 Sep 2007 01:47 GMT > September 20, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick, > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Potassium Bromide 5 g > ______________________________________ An interesting formula. I don't think I've seen another print developer with Glycin as the sole developing agent. Mostly, it seems to be used in conjunction with Hydroqinon or both Hydroquinone and Metol as in Agfa/Ansco 130 but there is no reason it should not work on its own as a warm tone developer. How active is it? I mean how long is your developing time and does it seem to have any effect on paper speed?
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Nicholas O. Lindan - 21 Sep 2007 03:40 GMT > "Lloyd Erlick" <Lloyd at @the-wire. dot com> wrote > > 102 Print Developer (Original due to Edmund Lowe [edwal]) > > .... Potassium Phosphate 32 g ... > An interesting formula. What does the Phosphate do?
> I don't think I've seen another print developer with Glycin as the sole > developing agent. Makes sense ... is there a warm-tone using just phenidone, sort of a POTA for Paper?
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com
Richard Knoppow - 21 Sep 2007 08:03 GMT >> "Lloyd Erlick" <Lloyd at @the-wire. dot com> wrote >> > 102 Print Developer (Original due to Edmund Lowe [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > sort > of a POTA for Paper? AFAIK no. The problem is that Phenidone and sulfite is just not very active. Its possible it might work in a stronger Alkali. That's why it produces such low contrast. Most of the warm tone formulas I have are very old. They contain Hydroquinone alone, Hydroquinone with Glycin, Chlorohydroquinone and I have even seen a formula for devloping prints in Pyro. Warm tone developrs can be made with Phenidone, I think Ilford has a formula. BTW, I found a couple of Edwal formulas by searching Google Patents. Both were fine grain film developers.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Lloyd Erlick - 21 Sep 2007 13:57 GMT >Most of the >warm tone formulas I have are very old. September 21, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,
They would be interesting to see. Would it be a lot of work to post them in a chunk?
regards, --le
Richard Knoppow - 21 Sep 2007 23:15 GMT >>Most of the >>warm tone formulas I have are very old. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > regards, > --le These are mostly pretty well known formulas like Kodak D-52 and a couple of Agfa/Ansco formulas. Gevaert also had some formulas which seem to have been unique to them. Some of these developers are simply lower activity versions of standard developers, them main difference being lower pH. A couple use Hydroquinone as the sole developing agent and a couple use Glycin. I have to look for the Pyrochatachin and the Chlorhydroquinon formulas, I don't remember which book they are in. Reportedly standard staining Pyro film developers, like the familiar ABC formula, work on paper and produce a stain image. This might be interesting to experiment with. Pyro stain is a pigment, not a dye, so its quite permanent.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Lloyd Erlick - 22 Sep 2007 10:36 GMT >I don't >remember which book they are in. September 22, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,
Or which box the book is in??? (well, this is true of me. sigh.)
--le
Lloyd Erlick - 21 Sep 2007 13:57 GMT >What does the Phosphate do? September 21, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,
Well, now you're getting technical. I guess it takes the place of carbonates in other developers, so it's the accelerator. Mostly I'm a follower in photo chemistry. So if Adams says Ansco 120 is good, I'm willing to go along and base all my variations on that.
Edmund Lowe specified sodium phosphate (TSP) in 102. I just found a potassium version of the same chemical and tried it out (my supplier labeled it Potassium Phosphate Tribasic, Monohydrate). I also reduced the amount of sulfite by nearly half, because potassium sulfite is hard to get. I can't see any effect of the reduction in print results.
Basically I viewed it as an easy way to get to know Glycin with very little associated chemistry.
regards, --le
Richard Knoppow - 21 Sep 2007 23:10 GMT >>What does the Phosphate do? > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > regards, > --le This substance is known better as Tri-Sodium-Phosphate or TSP and is the same as the cleaning material. It is not used much now because phosphates are water polutants. TSP is, besides being a fairly high pH alkali a sequestering agent for some of the salts in hard water. There are numerous developer formulas using it although I don't have a ready list. I am not sure what, if any, special properties TSP has photographically. It seems to have been used mainly to prevent sludging or deposition in developing tanks due to hard water.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Lloyd Erlick - 22 Sep 2007 10:42 GMT >Tri-Sodium-Phosphate >or TSP and is the same as the cleaning material. It is not >used much now because phosphates are water polutants. September 22, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,
I'm sure that is the reason it's stocked on the shelves of hardware stores large and small (as a degreaser and cleaning agent). I buy it in the same waxed two-liter cardboard packs they use for milk. What a funny world. I suppose taking it out of the laundry detergent took most of it out of the lake.
Potassium Phosphate was a bit more difficult to source locally, but far from impossible. I had to ride the transit ...
regards, --le ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. website: www.heylloyd.com telephone: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com ________________________________ --
Lloyd Erlick - 21 Sep 2007 13:57 GMT >... is there a warm-tone using just phenidone, sort >of a POTA for Paper? September 21, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,
Phenidone is not an everlasting developing agent like Metol. I can't possibly keep up with the degradation of both Glycin and Phenidone if they're both in my darkroom at the same time.
I thought Phenidone had the reputation of yielding cool results?
By the way, a very interesting print development agent is para amino phenol, as in Rodinal. It is also interesting to add it to other print developers. My color perception sees print results from pAP as quite a 'hard' brown (not as warm-red as others, but more enamel-like in appearance).
regards, --le ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. website: www.heylloyd.com telephone: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com ________________________________ --
Bogdan Karasek - 21 Sep 2007 21:29 GMT Hi,
snip
> By the way, a very interesting print > development agent is para amino phenol, as in > Rodinal. As a starting point for experimentation, what dilution of Rodinal did you use and how much time did it take to get a viable image?
It is also interesting to add it to
> other print developers. What proportions did you use with what print developers.
Thanks!
Cheers, Bogdan
________________________________________________________________ Bogdan Karasek Montréal, Québec bogdan at bogdanphoto.com Canada www.bogdanphoto.com
"I photograph my reality" ________________________________________________________________
Lloyd Erlick - 22 Sep 2007 10:49 GMT September 22, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,
...
>> By the way, a very interesting print >> development agent is para amino phenol, as in >> Rodinal. > >As a starting point for experimentation, what dilution of Rodinal did >you use and how much time did it take to get a viable image? I found that diluting Rodinal (I did this when it was still an Agfa product) 1+15 -- 1+20 yielded very nice prints. A tablespoon or two of sodium or potassium sulfite will help it last more than a short time in the tray.
It performed very much like any paper developer one might use. I generally use three minutes development time, and Rodinal was no different.
>It is also interesting to add it to >> other print developers. > >What proportions did you use with what print developers. ...
I did that when I had a bottle of pAP developing agent from the Formulary. I found three to six grams in a liter of working solution of some other developer (mostly I did this with the Ansco 120 formula) changed the look of the result nicely.
Again, it's far from a dramatic, exaggerated change in performance of the developer. I'm not making any marketing-speak claims. Results are subtle and far from obvious. A darkroom worker must be employed to detect ...
regards, --le ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. website: www.heylloyd.com telephone: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com ________________________________ --
Richard Knoppow - 21 Sep 2007 23:16 GMT >>... is there a warm-tone using just phenidone, sort >>of a POTA for Paper? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > regards, > --le Rodinal makes a good although expensive print developer at about 1:25. A very long time ago Agfa actually advertised this in Rodinal ads.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Lloyd Erlick - 22 Sep 2007 10:52 GMT >A very long time ago Agfa actually advertised >this in Rodinal ads. September 22, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,
I find myself compelled to scan nearly everything that crosses my path. If I found one of these ads I'd certainly make a screen-filler out of it ...
I think the Formulary still supplies pAP. It's important to get the HCl form, not the pure base, which will not dissolve easily (or at all, frankly). It's a lot cheaper this way than to buy actual Rodinal.
regards, --le
Lloyd Erlick - 21 Sep 2007 13:57 GMT > An interesting formula. I don't think I've seen another >print developer with Glycin as the sole developing agent. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > How active is it? I mean how long is your developing >time and does it seem to have any effect on paper speed? September 21, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,
It was the only formula I could find with Glycin as the only developing agent.
I have been using Metol as the sole developing agent in a print developer for some time (Ansco 120 formula, with potassium salts instead of sodium). I've used Glycin in the past (actually managed to use up a bottle of it before it spoiled). So when I got the urge to buy some more Glycin this time, I thought I should use it alone in a developer to get a real feel for its action.
I swap the sodium salts in the original formula for their potassium counterparts. This yields a noticeably warmer result that I find very rewarding, as Adams would phrase it.
It's a relatively low activity developer. I use a three minute development time. For about the first forty five seconds there is close to no density observable. Of course, it's under dim light, so there probably is some slight density, but basically for the first minute the image is barely visible. I use a lot of black backgrounds in my portraits, and of course it's the black areas that appear first. They take roughly a minute before significant density appears.
Effect on paper speed is hard to say. I've had a bit of a struggle with some Forte PW-14 Warmtone lately. That paper is definitely slow (at least double the exposure I give the same negative on Ilford MGW). I've made no scientific measurements, but it seems to me the paper (Ilford MGW) responds very similarly in my usual 120 Metol and the 102 Glycin formula.
Recently someone remarked that they were looking for a developer that would yield warm print results with no need for toner. (This might have been on the PureSilver list, or maybe APUG, sure glad all this still exists!) Anyway, it seems to me there is a bit of pleasant warm glow of Glycin in the freshly developed and fixed but not toned print after development in the Glycin 102 developer. As I've commented before, my color perception is not exact (they let me drive cars but not fly attack helicopters ...), so maybe the prints are even warmer than I think after development.
However, the real thing about this developer is the result of selenium toning on the print. I know I'm prone to all the usual psychological effects of color and looking too much, but I really, really like the result of ten minutes in KRST that is fairly concentrated, and maybe even warm, too. Skin tones have a lovely golden glow, and blonde hair looks radiant. I wonder if anyone has made scientific observations of Glycin results? The lore has it that Glycin gives a certain 'glow' to print tones, and I have to admit I think I see that. I'm sure it could be wishful thinking, but in any case, the prints are very beautiful.
regards, --le ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. website: www.heylloyd.com telephone: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com ________________________________ --
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