Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / August 2007
Safelights and paper developer?
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Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 20 Aug 2007 09:14 GMT I need to outfit my darkroom with safelights. I currently have red safelights, which I am not fond of, but seems to be all that I can find here. :-(
Someone gave me a Kodak safelight (large cone-shaped thing with a 15 watt bulb in it) complete with an OA and an OC filter. It had not been used in many years, it still had a U.S. plug on it and a 120 volt bulb in it.
I have yet to try to buy any paper, what I have is several years out of date Ilford Multigrade and Agfa Brovira. From what I have read, I probably will only be able to buy Ilford paper.
Agfa and Kodak are "out of the game" and the more obscure papers have to be mail ordered from the U.S. or Germany and have little chance of surviving the trip, except when shipped via air express, which would be about $100 a box.
I therefore might as well confine my questions to Ilford Multigrade paper. Will it work properly with a red safelight? Which filter (OA/OC) should I use in the Kodak?
Any recemondations for a commonly available liquid paper developer? I plan to make up a tray full of developer and stop bath and throw them out when done. Fixer will probably be old, but still useable, film fixer. (should I dilute the fixer?)
Thanks, Geoff.
 Signature Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Richard Knoppow - 21 Aug 2007 00:08 GMT >I need to outfit my darkroom with safelights. I currently >have [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Thanks, Geoff. Outdated paper is likely to be fogged. While the use of an anti-fog agent can same some of it its best just to avoid it. The red safelights are fine for both graded and variable contrast papers but are somewhat unpleasant to work under. The recommended safelight filter is the Kodak OC. Do NOT use an OA, this is an older type of filter intended for graded paper and will fog VC paper. The Ilford equivalent filter is the No.905. These filters are intended to pass as much visible light as possible so that the darkroom is easy to work in without passing light the paper is sensitive to. However, the red safelights quite satisfactory from the fogging standpoint. Safelight filters can fade so should be tested. Both Kodak and Ilford have test procedures on their web sites, the Kodak test can be found by entering K-4 in the search engine on their web site. Because the combination of exposure to the safelight and to the enlarger results in greater sensitivity to fogging a simple exposure to the safelight will not tell you if its safe. The Kodak bee-hive safelight is a very common item as are the filters for it. You should be able to find more of them at pretty low cost. There is really very little difference among paper developers. I would use whatever is conveniently available to you. The requirements for fixing paper are more stringent than those for film. Do NOT use partially exhausted fixer. A better method is to use a two bath fixing system. The second bath remains relatively fresh and will clean up after the first bath. When the first bath becomes exhausted enough its tossed and the second bath moved up, the second bath being replaced by a fresh bath. The capacity of this system to fix paper completely is four to ten times the capacity of a single bath. This system should also be used for film. While the Iodide leached out of film tends to slow down fixing it has relatively little effect on a two bath system and relatively little effect of Ammonium Thiosulfate (Rapid) fixer. So, if you are going to use the same fixer for both film and paper rapid fixer is preferred. For paper you can use the fixer at film strength, but be careful of excessive fixing times because acid rapid fixer can bleach the image a little. There are a couple of ways to test fixing baths for exhaustion. The best is to check periodically for clearing time. This is the time it takes for the emulsion to become completely clear in the bath. It is very hard to determine this for paper but it can be seen easily for film. I suggest using a scrap of film to test the fresh bath and test periodically using a scrap of the same film. When the clearing time doubles toss the fixer. This is OK for the first bath of a two bath system but for a single bath will result in excessively exhausted fixer. Soak the film for a couple of minutes before testing because wet film fixes at a different rate than dry film. Another test is to use a solution of Potassium Iodide. This will produce a cloud of Silver Iodide in exhausted fixing bath. Kodak gives the formula and method in their darkroom handbook. Fixer test solutions are also available packaged. Total fixing time should be about double the clearing time. For the two bath system fix for half the time in each bath. A further economy is to use a sulfite wash aid such as Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent. This does several things but among them is the ability to make some otherwise bound up silver complexes soluble so it has the effect of partially compensating for inadequate fixing. It is also a definite economy where water is at a premium. Standard Acetic acid stop bath is fine. If you use rapid fixer avoid the use of Citric acid stop bath, such as Ilfords, because the combination of Citric acid with the Ammonium Thiosulfate fixer makes a pretty good bleach. The cheapest way to make up stop bath is to buy Glacial Acetic (concentrated acetic) acid and dilute it to 28% working solution. This is then used to make up the usual 1.5% stop bath. A liter of Glacial will make many gallons of stop bath. Don't try to save the stop bath, just toss it. Despite the current trend to eliminate stop baths they serve a useful purpose in preventing dichroic fog in the fixing bath. A water rinse will work but should be thorough, at least 30 seconds to one minute in water kept pretty fresh. Eliminating the stop bath really has no advantage despite some pretty strong fans of the method. Ilford makes good paper and, at the moment, seems to be about the only paper manufacturer with good quality control. IMO, most of the small manufacturers are using very old technology and there are many reports of inconsistent results. Fuji also makes good paper but does not sell it outside of Japan.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 21 Aug 2007 07:39 GMT Thanks for the wonderful answer. It will be a great help.
> Outdated paper is likely to be fogged. While the use > of an anti-fog agent can same some of it its best just to > avoid it. I agree, but it's what I have. :-)
I'll have to see if I can get any paper locally. Darkroom stuff does not sell well here.
Up until some time in the late 1980's photgraphic equipment (and personal computers) were taxed at about 250% (two and a half times the price in taxes), when I moved here in 1996, it had been reduced to 140%. So very few things were sold here.
Schools had darkrooms and some imegrants from rich countries, but most, like me had to sell what we had as we could not afford to buy it again for the tax people.
In the last few years, it has been dropped to simply VAT (15.5%), which makes it more affordable. However since 9/11 the chance of shipping anything by air without it being X-Rayed is pretty slim. Surface shipping is safer, but the temperatures vary from well bellow freezing in the winter to over 120F in the summer.
In the last few months, the USPS has revised their prices upward, and a friend sent me a small vaccuum sealing device she bought at a yard sale for $4. It was about the size of 100 sheet photo paper box, 4x11 inches. The shipping was $35, without tracking, guarentee of delivery or insurance.
Freestyle, for example ships only FedEX and therefore a package of 8x10 paper would cost $100 to ship.
> The red safelights are fine for both graded and > variable contrast papers but are somewhat unpleasant to work > under. The recommended safelight filter is the Kodak OC. Do > NOT use an OA, this is an older type of filter intended for > graded paper and will fog VC paper. The Ilford equivalent > filter is the No.905. Ok, thanks. I'll stick to the OC. Now to find a 15 watt bulb. I looked through Home Center and the smallest bulb they had was 25 watts. Smaller bulbs have been replaced with miniflourescent bulbs. I'll have to find a lighting store.
> These filters are intended to pass as much visible > light as possible so that the darkroom is easy to work in > without passing light the paper is sensitive to. However, > the red safelights quite satisfactory from the fogging > standpoint. That's good to know. I have two safelights that are red. They are very dim, and use 7.5 watt night light bulbs, which are easily found, and I bought a large supply. :-)
I also have two Phillips safe light bulbs, which are like regular red light bulbs, but coated with a safelight filter. One I bought, which cost as much as the small safelights and the other was a gift.
I know this is rambling, but I expect that in 10 years, the situation in the U.S. will be the same. :-(
> Safelight filters can fade so should be tested. Both > Kodak and Ilford have test procedures on their web sites, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > greater sensitivity to fogging a simple exposure to the > safelight will not tell you if its safe. This is really a gem. I was bought up on the quarter on the paper safelight test. I'll look for it right away.
> The Kodak bee-hive safelight is a very common item as > are the filters for it. You should be able to find more of > them at pretty low cost. It's the only one I've seen here. It was given to me unmodified as it came from the U.S. complete with a 120 volt bulb in it. I would love to find more, but don't have much hope.
> There is really very little difference among paper > developers. I would use whatever is conveniently available > to you. Thanks, I appreiciate that information. I was a big dektol user and have long since forgotten what liquid I used. :-)
> The requirements for fixing paper are more stringent > than those for film. Do NOT use partially exhausted fixer. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > capacity of a single bath. This system should also be used > for film. Ok, thanks.
> While the Iodide leached out of film tends to slow > down fixing it has relatively little effect on a two bath > system and relatively little effect of Ammonium Thiosulfate > (Rapid) fixer. So, if you are going to use the same fixer > for both film and paper rapid fixer is preferred. Ok, that's what I use.
> For paper you can use the fixer at film strength, but > be careful of excessive fixing times because acid rapid > fixer can bleach the image a little. I did not plan to, that's why I said I would dilute it. I can make fresh and keep it seperate.
> There are a couple of ways to test fixing baths for > exhaustion. The best is to check periodically for clearing [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > couple of minutes before testing because wet film fixes at a > different rate than dry film. Ok, thanks,
> Another test is to use a solution of Potassium Iodide. > This will produce a cloud of Silver Iodide in exhausted > fixing bath. Kodak gives the formula and method in their > darkroom handbook. Fixer test solutions are also available > packaged. I have some, but I know it is at least 15 years old. Does it go bad?
> Total fixing time should be about double the clearing > time. For the two bath system fix for half the time in each [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > compensating for inadequate fixing. It is also a definite > economy where water is at a premium. I'm in the desert. :-) Like L.A., you might not believe it if you see it, but water is at a premium here. I am using some sort of wash aid, but Kodak chemicals were hard to find here and are probably gone.
> Standard Acetic acid stop bath is fine. If you use > rapid fixer avoid the use of Citric acid stop bath, such as > Ilfords, because the combination of Citric acid with the > Ammonium Thiosulfate fixer makes a pretty good bleach. oops. That's what I have.
> The cheapest way to make up stop bath is to buy Glacial > Acetic (concentrated acetic) acid and dilute it to 28% > working solution. This is then used to make up the usual > 1.5% stop bath. A liter of Glacial will make many gallons of > stop bath. Don't try to save the stop bath, just toss it. I used to do that in the U.S. I have never seen it here.
> Ilford makes good paper and, at the moment, seems to be > about the only paper manufacturer with good quality control. > IMO, most of the small manufacturers are using very old > technology and there are many reports of inconsistent > results. Fuji also makes good paper but does not sell it > outside of Japan. Thanks for everything, I'll report back. I hope I can find paper, I've already bought out local supplies of bulk 35mm film, plastic reloadable casettes, HC-110 and Rodinal.
When asked if more (developer) was on the way, a local store said yes. which I wonder because the Rodinal was the old Agfa version. Another store in Tel Aviv danced around the issue, but gave the impression I got the last of their chemicals. The HC-110 I bought from them had gone bad with age (something I thought almost impossible for a factory sealed bottle).
Geoff.
 Signature Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Claudio Bonavolta - 21 Aug 2007 13:33 GMT <snip>
> Freestyle, for example ships only FedEX and therefore a package of 8x10 > paper would cost $100 to ship. At B&H, UPS shipment is cheaper than USPS and service is much better (tracking #, fast delivery, etc ...). Multigrade, fiber papers are here: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/3results/controller/home?O=search&A=search&Q=&ci=390 5&sb=bs%2Cupper%28ds%29&sq=asc
I ordered once a bunch of electron tubes from New-York through USPS. I received them with "some" delay as they went through South Africa before arriving in Europe. I suppose someone mixed Swaziland and Switzerland, phonetically close but just on two different continents ...
> I also have two Phillips safe light bulbs, which are like regular > red light bulbs, but coated with a safelight filter. One I bought, > which cost as much as the small safelights and the other was a gift. They work fine, I use some of them together with their amber counterparts. But, as usual, test your safelight to be sure it is safe ...
> I'm in the desert. :-) Like L.A., you might not believe it if you > see it, but water is at a premium here. I am using some sort of > wash aid, but Kodak chemicals were hard to find here and are probably > gone. As washaid, I just use a plain 2% sodium sulfite solution I through at the end of the session. This is a very cheap chemical. Or you may go the formula Richard gave some times ago which is more or less similar to Kodak's one.
> Thanks for everything, I'll report back. I hope I can find paper, > I've already bought out local supplies of bulk 35mm film, plastic [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the last of their chemicals. The HC-110 I bought from them had gone bad with > age (something I thought almost impossible for a factory sealed bottle). Buy also your chemicals from one of the US large distributors but, because of air shipments regulations, you're usually limited to dry chemicals (Dektol, Xtol, etc ...). In your situation, I would try to find a local supplier of raw chemicals and mix my own, it may be easier.
> Geoff. > > -- > Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel g...@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM > IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 > Visit my 'blog athttp://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ Good luck, Claudio Bonavolta http://www.bonavolta.ch
Andrew Price - 21 Aug 2007 20:12 GMT [---]
>In your situation, I would try to find a local supplier of raw >chemicals and mix my own, it may be easier. Good suggestion. See also Lloyd Erlick's article :
<http://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/bulkchem.htm>
on this subject. The other articles on his site are also well worth reading.
Claudio Bonavolta - 22 Aug 2007 11:00 GMT > On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 05:33:26 -0700, Claudio Bonavolta > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > on this subject. The other articles on his site are also well worth > reading. Some more comments as Geoff seems to need a post-nuclear war survival guide ...
One more option for the safelights: to make my computers screens inactinic when working in my darkroom I cover the screens with red plastic film called Rubylith. This is not just a red film as it is intended for masking use in graphic arts and printers. It is very efficient and cheap, the only drawback is that it is becoming rare as most of graphic work has gone digital. There is also an amber version called Amberlith.
Regarding self-made chemistry, a few other pointers: - Steve Anchell's pair of books (meant to be practical cookbooks and not scientific litterature), check with Amazon. - I put a copy of Kodak's J-1 publication which contains all basic formulas (and more) here (20MB pdf file): http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/files/Kodak%20j-1.pdf - Photo Formulary have also published a bunch of formulas (under Technical Infos): http://www.photoformulary.com - The same with Digital Truth together with a database of development times: http://www.digitaltruth.com - Ryuji Suzuki's website (seems down, hopefully temporarily): http://www.silvergrain.org - http://www.jackspcs.com - and many other websites ...
If Geoff stays with classic formulas like D-76 and D-72 (Dektol's public formula), the basic ingredients are similar and the number of raw chemicals could remain limited. If he prefers more environmentally-friendly formulas then those based on ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) are available (Mytol, E-72, Ryuji's formulas, etc ...).
Regarding the raw chemicals in Israel, I did a quick search and found following website that may be a good start: http://dir.chemnet.com/Regional/Israel/ One of the links points to an university, that could be a good idea to ask the chemistry department of a university what suppliers they use.
So, good luck ! Claudio Bonavolta http://www.bonavolta.ch
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 22 Aug 2007 11:39 GMT > Some more comments as Geoff seems to need a post-nuclear war survival > guide ... I don't think so. It may seem that way, but it's a more of a combination of the effects of digital photography and the movement of research to the China and India, combined with post 9/11 paranoia.
I can already see the effects here, some common household chemicals such as ammonia are banned. I also see that in the U.S. people who buy scales and organic solvents are suspected of running meth labs, or a bomb factory.
When I was a child growing up in Philly, I had a microscope and a small home chemical lab. By 1970 the organic solvents I used e.g. xylene and acetone, were banned and all sorts of chemicals were no longer sold. At one time you could buy them in a rack in a hobby shop, like spices at a supermarket, but they were gone.
> One more option for the safelights: to make my computers screens > inactinic when working in my darkroom I cover the screens with red [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > most of graphic work has gone digital. > There is also an amber version called Amberlith. I'll have to look for it. It should be easy to find if there are any graphic arts companies left. My guess is that they have all gone digital, it's obvious if you open any newspaper that everything is done with photoshop.
> Regarding self-made chemistry, a few other pointers: > - Steve Anchell's pair of books (meant to be practical cookbooks and > not scientific litterature), check with Amazon. > - I put a copy of Kodak's J-1 publication which contains all basic > formulas (and more) here (20MB pdf file): > http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/files/Kodak%20j-1.pdf Downloading it now, thanks.
> Regarding the raw chemicals in Israel, I did a quick search and found > following website that may be a good start: http://dir.chemnet.com/Regional/Israel/ > One of the links points to an university, that could be a good idea to > ask the chemistry department of a university what suppliers they use. The university is Hebrew University, where I got my start in Israel in their computer science department. I'll ask them if they can help.
Thanks for all your help,
Geoff.
 Signature Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Claudio Bonavolta - 22 Aug 2007 14:26 GMT > > Some more comments as Geoff seems to need a post-nuclear war survival > > guide ... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > were no longer sold. At one time you could buy them in a rack in > a hobby shop, like spices at a supermarket, but they were gone. Don't worry this was just a joke ... Fortunately here in Europe (except UK maybe) we feel much less the 9/11 effects. By the way, chemicals were already less widely available before due to safety regulations and another problem is that many chemical companies ask you to buy quantities way to large for the simple hobbyist.
> > One more option for the safelights: to make my computers screens > > inactinic when working in my darkroom I cover the screens with red [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > digital, it's obvious if you open any newspaper that everything is > done with photoshop. A link to the manufacturer: http://www.ulano.com They have a link to company Arta Graphics being their distributor for Mid-East region: http://www.arta-israel.co.il/sg_product~7010~13~54.htm But I can't read Hebrew ...
Good luck, Claudio Bonavolta http://www.bonavolta.ch
Andrew Price - 22 Aug 2007 21:19 GMT >Don't worry this was just a joke ... >Fortunately here in Europe (except UK maybe) we feel much less the >9/11 effects. And the UK has no one but itself to blame for that ...
Nicholas O. Lindan - 22 Aug 2007 15:34 GMT > Rubylith. This is not just a red film as it is > intended for masking use in graphic arts and > printers. It is very efficient and cheap, the > only drawback is that it is becoming rare as > most of graphic work has gone digital. Pre-press equipment and supplies can often be found at outfits that supply the silk-screening industry.
A good art-supplies store will often carry rubylith for poster silk-screening.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com
Rod Smith - 21 Aug 2007 16:29 GMT > Freestyle, for example ships only FedEX and therefore a package of 8x10 > paper would cost $100 to ship. When did you check their prices? I recall that Freestyle added some overseas shipping options a few months ago, with the goal of making themselves more affordable for non-US customers. If you did your checks a while back, it could be you should check again.
A few other options include B&H (in the US, http://www.bhphotovideo.com), Fotoimpex (in Germany, http://www.fotoimpex.de), and Megaperls (in Japan, http://www.unicircuits.com/shop/index.php). I haven't checked overseas shipping prices (or even product prices) at most of these places; I just happen to know about them and I believe they all do ship internationally, so they're worth checking out.
>> The red safelights are fine for both graded and >> variable contrast papers but are somewhat unpleasant to work [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > bulbs have been replaced with miniflourescent bulbs. I'll have to find > a lighting store. You might see if you can find a red LED bulb. I use one of these as one of my two safelights:
http://www.superbrightleds.com/specs/E27-W24.htm
I've heard some people use the amber ones, too, but I'm not sure they'd be safe with VC paper.
> That's good to know. I have two safelights that are red. They are very > dim, and use 7.5 watt night light bulbs, which are easily found, and I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > red light bulbs, but coated with a safelight filter. One I bought, > which cost as much as the small safelights and the other was a gift. My second safelight is a coated low-wattage incandescent bulb, similar to what you describe. I bought it from B&H or Freestyle (I don't recall which). Coated red bulbs sold for non-photographic uses might or might not be safe; the coating might be incomplete or it might pass light outside of the safe range. If you've got no other choice you might as well try one, but I certainly wouldn't assume it's safe without testing.
Oh, I've heard of people using red Christmas tree lights as safelights. I'd imagine those are rarer in Israel than in the US, though. ;-)
>> There is really very little difference among paper >> developers. I would use whatever is conveniently available >> to you. > > Thanks, I appreiciate that information. I was a big dektol > user and have long since forgotten what liquid I used. :-) ...
> When asked if more (developer) was on the way, a local store said yes. > which I wonder because the Rodinal was the old Agfa version. FWIW, I've heard that Rodinal makes a decent paper developer, but I've never tried it myself. (It must be used at greater concentration than with film -- around 1+10 dilution, IIRC.) There's also a mix-it-yourself version of Rodinal called paRodinal; see http://silent1.home.netcom.com/Photography/Dilutions%20and%20Times.html (it's one of several formulas there). The advantage of paRodinal is that it's easy to make from acetaminophen (Tylenol) tablets, sodium sulfite, and sodium hydroxide (lye). When mixed, the acetaminophen is chemically converted into p-aminophenol, the developing agent in Rodinal. Given what you've said, you might find it easier to track down these ingredients than to track down a packaged commercial developer.
For that matter, you could try to get more traditional photographic raw ingredients, such as phenidone, metol, etc. You could then mix a wide variety of developers. I believe that JD Photochem (http://www.jdphotochem.com) in Canada ships internationally. Even if shipping charges are ridiculous, chances are you'll be able to find some ingredients locally, so the total cost on a per-liter basis of developer should be reasonable. If you don't know Thing One about mixing your own chemicals, check out a few resources:
- Steve Anchell's _The Darkroom Cookbook, 2nd Edition_, ISBN 0240804236 - Steve Anchell and Bill Troop's _The Film Developing Cookbook_, ISBN 0240802772 - http://www.jackspcs.com - http://www.digitaltruth.com/data.html - http://www.photosensitive.ca/wp/easy-film-developers/
 Signature Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 21 Aug 2007 21:19 GMT Thanks,
> When did you check their prices? I recall that Freestyle added some > overseas shipping options a few months ago, with the goal of making > themselves more affordable for non-US customers. If you did your checks a > while back, it could be you should check again. It was a year ago, I should check again.
> You might see if you can find a red LED bulb. I use one of these as one of > my two safelights: > > http://www.superbrightleds.com/specs/E27-W24.htm I wonder if I can just make one from red LED's? I have many of them. It won't look as nice, and I'll probably just run it off of a "wall wart".
> My second safelight is a coated low-wattage incandescent bulb, similar to > what you describe. I bought it from B&H or Freestyle (I don't recall > which). Coated red bulbs sold for non-photographic uses might or might not > be safe; the coating might be incomplete or it might pass light outside of > the safe range. If you've got no other choice you might as well try one, > but I certainly wouldn't assume it's safe without testing. I expect not. When I was in high school a camera store opened nearby (but not near enough for me to use) with a rental darkroom. It had flourescent lights with the tubes in red sleeves. I wonder if I could get one of those, but the room may be too small.
I've gotten far enough to test things and found that my "darkroom" was too bightly lit at night to be of any use. I covered the windows with aluminum foil (just the thing for low price, easy availabilty, and sloppy workers) and tried it out tonight. It's dark enough to work at night. It's actually two rooms, a larger area with a clothes dryer in it, which I am using as an enlarging table, and a small powder room with a counter, sink and toilet as the wet room.
I'm safe until the rainy season which starts around November first, then my wife will actually use the dryer for its intended purpose.
I tried the Kodak safelight with a 10 watt bulb in it and it lit up the powder room well enough to work. I could not find any 15 watt bulbs, and on the third try, the local hardware store produced some 5-10 watt (I wish they'd make up their mind) bulbs. I'll have to measure their current draw.
I'll probably use it for the wet room, and the red lights for the enlarging area. Now I have to figure out how to set up a switching arangment so that they go off when the enlarger goes on. I don't have a timer, but I can count to 10 and if I concentrate 15 :-)
> Oh, I've heard of people using red Christmas tree lights as safelights. > I'd imagine those are rarer in Israel than in the US, though. ;-) They show up in the fall for Sukkot (the feast of Tabernacles), where everyone builds little huts and eats in them for a week commemerating the annual census and harvest where everyone traveled to Jerusalem and lived in huts for a week. We decorate them and eat in them, some people sleep in them.
By Christmas time, they disapear from the stores. :-)
> FWIW, I've heard that Rodinal makes a decent paper developer, but I've > never tried it myself. (It must be used at greater concentration than with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > you've said, you might find it easier to track down these ingredients than > to track down a packaged commercial developer. I tried that. I found that the local tylenol equivalent was expensive, pure sodium hydroxide was available only from a soap maker (who was willing to sell me 250 grams at a time), but sulfite was impossible to find. None of the camera stores carried it, and I could not locate a pool supply. Private pools are rare here.
> For that matter, you could try to get more traditional photographic raw > ingredients, such as phenidone, metol, etc. You could then mix a wide [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > should be reasonable. If you don't know Thing One about mixing your own > chemicals, check out a few resources: I guess I could try that, I used to do it a long time ago. Thanks. Eventually it may not be optional, as every day goes by the supply of ready made stuff shrinks.
Thanks for all the advice. I appriciate it.
Geoff.
 Signature Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Ken Hart - 22 Aug 2007 06:39 GMT > I'm safe until the rainy season which starts around November first, > then my wife will actually use the dryer for its intended purpose. Watch out for dryer lint!
> I tried the Kodak safelight with a 10 watt bulb in it and it lit up > the powder room well enough to work. I could not find any 15 watt bulbs, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that they go off when the enlarger goes on. I don't have a timer, but > I can count to 10 and if I concentrate 15 :-) Disclaimer: (a) I'm not a licensed electrician, nor do I play one on TV; (b) I have no idea what kind of electrical systems/parts are available in Israel.
The wall switches that are used for three-way light circuits (such as the light in a stairway where there is a switch downstairs and another upstairs to control one light) are single-pole-double-throw switches. They have three connections: have the power coming in on the 'common', and out on one of the two others depending on the position of the switch. One position of the switch supplies power to the safelight, the other position supplies power to the enlarger.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 22 Aug 2007 09:39 GMT > The wall switches that are used for three-way light circuits (such as the > light in a stairway where there is a switch downstairs and another upstairs [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > switch supplies power to the safelight, the other position supplies power to > the enlarger. Thanks, I have never seen them here. I'll have to ask. Instead of using 3 way light switches, hallways have push button start timers. They are scientificly designed through years of measurement and careful observation to turn off the light just before you get your door open and therefore plunge you into darkness. :-)
Geoff.
 Signature Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Rod Smith - 23 Aug 2007 18:02 GMT > > You might see if you can find a red LED bulb. I use one of these as one of >> my two safelights: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I wonder if I can just make one from red LED's? I have many of them. It won't > look as nice, and I'll probably just run it off of a "wall wart". That ought to work, although with the usual caveat that you should do safelight tests. In fact, if you spread them out you might end up with more even illumination than you'd get from a single bulb.
> It's actually two rooms, a larger area with a clothes dryer in it, which > I am using as an enlarging table, and a small powder room with a counter, > sink and toilet as the wet room. I'm using a broken washing machine as a table in my darkroom. My enlarger's control unit, which is separate from the enlarger's base/column/head assembly, sits on the washing machine.
> I'll probably use it for the wet room, and the red lights for the enlarging > area. Now I have to figure out how to set up a switching arangment so > that they go off when the enlarger goes on. I don't have a timer, but > I can count to 10 and if I concentrate 15 :-) I've never bothered with this. My typical exposure times are in the 10-30 second range, which shouldn't cause fogging unless the safelights are very close to being unsafe to begin with.
>> There's also a mix-it-yourself >> version of Rodinal called paRodinal; see >> http://silent1.home.netcom.com/Photography/Dilutions%20and%20Times.html ...
> I tried that. I found that the local tylenol equivalent was expensive, > pure sodium hydroxide was available only from a soap maker (who was > willing to sell me 250 grams at a time), but sulfite was impossible > to find. None of the camera stores carried it, and I could not locate > a pool supply. Private pools are rare here. I believe that sodium sulfite is used in wine production, so you might check if there are any stores that specialize in such things. Certainly it's a common enough chemical industrially; the tricky part would be locating somebody who'd be willing to sell small quantities to an individual.
 Signature Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 21 Aug 2007 21:39 GMT > When did you check their prices? I recall that Freestyle added some > overseas shipping options a few months ago, with the goal of making > themselves more affordable for non-US customers. If you did your checks a > while back, it could be you should check again. The option they added was USPS international priority mail. It was reasonably priced up until May, when the rates were restructured.
Now it's $20 for the first pound and $4 for each pound after that including packaging. There is a special box rate (you use their box), which may or may not fit and Freestyle is under no obligation to use it. It's about $35 for up to 20 pounds.
I assume if I were to get some small things, then it would cost about $45 ($35 for the shipping and $10 for the packaging). Paper may not fit in the box, or be too heavy and I would have to go with the by the pound option.
Most if not all, packages are X-rayed at least once.
I guess it's worth a shot, I'll wait until next month when it's cooler. No need to have things cooked in transit. :-)
Thanks, Geoff.
 Signature Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Richard Knoppow - 21 Aug 2007 23:14 GMT > Thanks for the wonderful answer. It will be a great help. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > stuff does > not sell well here. Most of long post snipped...
I am sorry to hear of the problems caused by unreasonable taxes there. A real PITA. If you can obtain raw chemicals you can make your own wash aid. For paper a simple 2% solution of Sodium Sulfite will work well. I think sulfite is available for other uses than photography so it may be easier to obtain than it first looks. The use of a Sulfite wash aid very substantially reduces the amount of water needed for washing, by at least 6 times. Also, you can save more but using a sequential bath method. Total washing time is about the same but the amount of water used is much less than for a running water wash. Kodak and Ilford give instructions for film but paper can be washed the same way. Agitate fiber prints in a sequence of about 5 minute baths of water for about 6 changes of water when a wash aid is used. Beware of red coated light bulbs as safelights. They _look_ red but pass enough other colors to cause fogging. They may be OK but test them. Actually, any safelight should be checked because the filters fade with time. Old paper can often be used with the help of an anti-fogging agent. The most effective is Benzotriazole but plain Potassium bromide will work. Bromide has a greater effect on the image color (tends to warm it up) and looses more speed than Benzotriazole. I will have to look up the amounts, they are given in Grant Haist's book and its in a box somewhere right now. In general, cold tone papers tend to pick up fog less than warm tone paper. I have some ancient Brovira which still works but warmer tone paper such as Agfa Portriga Rapid is useless even with the anti-foggant. Rodinal is not the ideal developer for anything but works OK where somewhat increased grain is acceptable. That means it work for large format negatives and for very fine grain film. In particular, it will develop T-Max or Delta films wtih relatively fine grain. Rodinal also makes a good, if a bit expensive paper developer at about 1:30.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Peter - 22 Aug 2007 19:48 GMT > > Thanks for the wonderful answer. It will be a great help. > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > Los Angeles, CA, USA > dickb...@ix.netcom.com I suppose there would be a few more options for a wash aid although some ingenuity may help.
If I recall correctly plain old sodium cloride (table salt) helps speed washing a little.
Sodium Sulfite is just sulfur dioxide (SO2) combined with lye (sodium hydroxide). He says he can get the lye so all he needs to do is burn sulfur in a vessel that is sealed and has water in it. Water combines readily with SO2; the solution is slightly acid. Then take that solution and add a dilute solution of lye until a pH of about 7 is reached.
Having a pipette and an indicator to reach a neutral pH may be pushing it, but buying Hydrion pH paper over the net should not be hard and it doesn't weigh much. Adding lye solution with an eye dropper is a way to mimic the pipette (with a little care added - lye is nasty).
Naturally, to do this, he needs to find some sulfur ... perhaps that is possible?
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 22 Aug 2007 23:57 GMT > I suppose there would be a few more options for > a wash aid although some ingenuity may help. Agfa for many years recommended a 2% solution of sodium carbonate. Dan
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 23 Aug 2007 08:24 GMT > Agfa for many years recommended a 2% solution > of sodium carbonate. Dan Ok, I'll look for those things, but it's not a priority. In 2003 I bought large bottles of Tental developer, wash aid and fixer. The developer did not last, but the fixer and wash aid concentrates seem to be fine.
Of course once I get things going, I may use them up a lot quicker. :-)
Thanks, Geoff.
 Signature Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Rod Smith - 23 Aug 2007 18:09 GMT >> Agfa for many years recommended a 2% solution >> of sodium carbonate. Dan [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > did not last, but the fixer and wash aid concentrates seem to be > fine. Wash aids tend to deteriorate over time, so unless you've got a way for testing activity, I'd be a bit cautious with the wash aid. Fixer develops a spoiled-egg smell when it goes bad, although I suppose that might be masked by an ammonia odor with some fixers.
As to sodium carbonate, that's a VERY common ingredient in household detergents. In the US, Arm and Hammer Washing Soda is pure sodium carbonate monohydrate; I use that in my formulas that call for it. You might be able to find sodium carbonate sold as a laundry booster in Israel, but I don't know your local brands, so you'll have to check box ingredients yourself.
 Signature Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking
Richard Knoppow - 24 Aug 2007 07:18 GMT >>> Agfa for many years recommended a 2% solution >>> of sodium carbonate. Dan [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > to check box > ingredients yourself. Fixer will eventualy decompose. When it does it has a strong sulfur odor but also usualy has a deposit of precipitated elemental Sulfur in it. It can be yellow or cream. It has to be pretty far gone for this. Acid fixer is much more likely to decompose than plain fixer but both have a limited life. Even rapid fixer concentrate has a limited life, perhaps because most of it comes in plastic containers which are permeable to air. The sulfite in wash aid will slowly oxidize to Sulfate. The sulfate does no harm but does not have the washing accelerating properties of Sulfite (or at least it has them in much reduced amount). Its hard to know how long the life of a wash aid concentrate is. The Kodak product is about 10% Sulfite and Kodak gives its shelf life in a filled, sealed, container as 6 months. Kodak tends to be conservative about shelf life but, since wash aid gives no sign of being oxidized, its good practice not to keep it for too long. Working strength wash aid is strictly an expendible and should not be saved and re-used. Its life in a tray is several hours.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Richard Knoppow - 24 Aug 2007 07:54 GMT >> I suppose there would be a few more options for >> a wash aid although some ingenuity may help. > > Agfa for many years recommended a 2% solution > of sodium carbonate. Dan So did Kodak. This is the result of research carried out by Edith Wyde at Agfa labs in the 1930's. The alkali works because it changes the pH of the gelatin to a point above (more alkaline) than its "isoelectric" point. This changes the electrical charges on the molecules in a way that rejects Thiosulfate ions instead of attracting them. Unlike many other substances Gelatin has no definite pH. Rather it has the properties of both an alkali and an acid. This is called being Amphoretic. Gelatin tends to have the pH of the last bath it was treated in. Nonetheless, the molecular charges in Gelatin are dependent on whether the pH is higher or lower than its isoelectric point (where the net molecular charge is zero). When it is on the acid side the charges are opposite to fixer and its reaction products so their ions tend to be attracted to and held by the gelatin molecules. By adjusting the pH to a point on the alkaline side of the isoelectric point the charges are reversed and repel the unwanted ions, thus accelerating their washing out. The isoelectric point of gelatin depends on how it was manufactured. For most photographic gelatin the isoelectric point is just slightly on the acid side of neutral.u The alkaline condition also has an effect where a White Alum(Potassium Aluminum Sulfate) hardener has been used. The Alum tends to bind the Thiosulfate ions and the silver complex ions to the gelatin in a way similar to the mordant used to prevent the running of dye. Again, this effect is pH dependent. It is most effective in a fairly narrow pH window on the acid side of neutral. The alkali bath changes the pH of the gelatin to a point where this mordanting effect is no longer active. However, most alkalis, such as the Carbonates, or Borax, move the pH far enough to the alkaline side to break the cross-linking of the hardening so the hardening is also no longer effective. Sodium Sulfite is also a weak alkaline and has the above effects on Gelatin. However, most of its accelerating action on washing is due to another effect called ion exchange. The Sulfite ions are taken up the gelatin preferentially to the Thiosulfate ions and Thiosulfate-silver complex ions resulting from fixing so these are actively displaced. In Kodak's research no other substance tested had the ion-exchange property to the same extent as the sulfites. Other sulfites, such s Ammonium Sulfite, can be used, but the sodium salt is common and easy to obtain. Also, Ammonium salts tend to be unstable in solution. Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent is buffered to neutral. This is so that it will preserve the hardening action of white alum hardener but break its mordanting effect. Neutral pH is also far enough away from the isoelectric point of photographic gelatin to reverse the charges on the molecules and repel the Thiosulfate ions and fixer reaction products which may be bound up to the gelatin and image silver electrically. Another advantage of conditioning the Gelatin to neutral pH is that its swelling is minimised. The swelling of gelatin is dependant on its pH compared to its isoelectric point. The swelling is minimum at the isoelectric point. Kodak, in one of its reseach papers, states that the rate of diffusion of the unwanted ions is partly dependant on the swelling of the Gelatin. While it seems intuitive that the rate should increase with swelling in fact it is the opposite. The diffusion rate is dependant on the diffusion path, which is minimum when the Gelatin is _not_ swelled. Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent also contains two sequestering agents to prevent a deposit of Sulfite, Aluminum (from the hardener) and mineral salts from the water on the film or paper. The patent shows only one of the sequestering agents, EDTA Tetra-Sodium Salt, but the MSDS shows the commercial product also contains some Sodium Citrate. Otherwise an effective wash aid may be made from 2% Sodium Sulfite, or if he buffered version is desired, add some Sodium Bisulfite (or Sodium Metabisulfite). The patent formula shows: For one liter of concentrate: Sodium Sulfite 100.0 grams Sodium Bisulfite 15.0 grams EDTA Na4 5.0 grams Water to 1.0 liter
Dilute 1 part concentrate to 4 parts water for use.
The amount of Sodium Citrate in the commercial version is not known but is probably the same as the amount of EDTA.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Nicholas O. Lindan - 24 Aug 2007 17:10 GMT > For one liter of concentrate: > Sodium Sulfite 100.0 grams [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Water to 1.0 liter > Dilute 1 part concentrate to 4 parts water for use. Well, that adds yet another formula ...
I have accumulated several recipes over time. In grams/liter of working strength they are:
Source ================================== Above Anchell Usenet Usenet Average #1 #2 S. Sulfite 20.00 20.00 10.00 15.00 16.00 S. (Meta)Bisulfite 3.00 5.00 2.00 5.00 4.00 EDTA Na4 1.00 0.25 0.60 S. Citrate 1.00(?) 0.25 0.60
I am pretty sure the exact amounts do not matter, but any suggestions...
I am using - just to add another variation - Usenet #2 with .2gm EDTA/litre working.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com
Richard Knoppow - 24 Aug 2007 18:04 GMT >> For one liter of concentrate: >> Sodium Sulfite 100.0 grams [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > I am using - just to add another variation - Usenet #2 > with .2gm EDTA/litre working. Actually, there is an error in the formula I gave, which was done from memory. The formula is from the patent USP 2,860,978. This gives an example of working solution as follows:
Sodium Sulfite... 20 grams Sodium Bifulfite... 5 grams EDTA Na4... 0.5 grams Water to make 1.0 liter
That would make the formula for a concentrate of the commercial strength:
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 100.0 grams Sodium Bisulfite 25.0 grams EDTA Na4 2.5 grams Water to make 1.0 liter
Dilute 1 part concentrate to 4 parts water for use.
Packaged KHCA also contains Sodium Citrate. The MSDS gives only the approximate amount, with a possible ratio of 1 to 5 in quantity. However, its given as the same ratio as the EDTA so probably the amount is the same. Citrate is mentioned in the patent as a possible sequestering agent but is not included in the example. The other published formulas, including the ones I have posted at various times were worked out partly from the MSDS and partly from the amounts needed to buffer the solution to about neutral. The above formua, being from the patent, is more reliable and is probaby very close to the packaged version. I appologize for the errors in my original post, I should know by now not to trust my memory entirely.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 24 Aug 2007 00:12 GMT > Any recemondations for a commonly available liquid paper developer? > I plan to make up a tray full of developer and stop bath and throw them > out when done. Fixer will probably be old, but still useable, film fixer. > (should I dilute the fixer?) Thanks, Geoff. All that's needed for film and paper developers is ascorbic acid, phenidone, and sodium carbonate and/or borax. For fixer all that is needed is sodium thiosulffate. Water is often used as a stop. All but the phenidone should be close at hand. Ten grams of phenidone will make 250 liters of developer. Likely that would be mail-order. If Graded paper is available a higher level of lighting can be had in the darkroom. I've a few orange-ish yellow safelights. Very easy to see and do in my darkroom. Dan
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 24 Aug 2007 05:54 GMT > the darkroom. I've a few orange-ish yellow safelights. Very easy to > see and do in my darkroom. Dan Speeaking of that has anyone tried to put a compact flourescent bulb in a safelight? I assume if it would work, the safelight would have much farther from the paper than with an icandescent one of the same wattage.
Thanks.
Geoff.
 Signature Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Richard Knoppow - 24 Aug 2007 07:00 GMT >> the darkroom. I've a few orange-ish yellow safelights. >> Very easy to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Geoff. It would likely work but the compact fluorescent lamps are all quite bright compared to low power incandescent lamps. Another possibility is to use an array of LED's. There has been a lot of discussion of LED safelights, do a google search for it.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 24 Aug 2007 07:29 GMT > It would likely work but the compact fluorescent lamps > are all quite bright compared to low power incandescent > lamps. Another possibility is to use an array of LED's. > There has been a lot of discussion of LED safelights, do a > google search for it. The advantage of compact flourescents is that they are very common here and relatively cheap. I looked around the local shopping mall (the largest in the "middle east") and the local hardware store.
At the mall I was unable to find anything, at the hardware store I found 15 watt bulbs with a small base (no adaptors available) for refigerators and sewing machines and 5-10 watt bulbs that fit it. The lamp base is part of the safelight, it's a Kodak cone shaped grey metal can with a lamp socket at one end and a filter at the other.
Unfortunately I have no way of telling what their wattage really is, my AC ammeters don't go that low.
I'm no longer sure who recommended the Kodak publication "How safe is your safelight" (I think it was you Richard), but I can not find it on line. A search of their web site shows several references to it, but not the document itself. :-(
LED safelights are definitely a possibilty, I have many red LED's and the necessary skill to wire them togther.
Yesterday, my youngest son came down and saw the enlarger and said "ooh a camera, let's do it", so there may be hope yet. :-)
Thanks,
Geoff.
 Signature Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Claudio Bonavolta - 24 Aug 2007 10:13 GMT ><snip> > I'm no longer sure who recommended the Kodak publication "How safe is > your safelight" (I think it was you Richard), but I can not find > it on line. A search of their web site shows several references to it, > but not the document itself. :-( ><snip> http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/k4/k4Contents.shtml
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/applications/page.asp?n=148
Claudio Bonavolta http://www.bonavolta.ch
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 25 Aug 2007 20:29 GMT > http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/k4/k4Contents.shtml > > http://www.ilfordphoto.com/applications/page.asp?n=148 Wondeful, Thanks,
Geoff.
 Signature Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 24 Aug 2007 05:54 GMT > All that's needed for film and paper developers is ascorbic acid, > phenidone, and sodium carbonate and/or borax. For fixer all that is > needed is sodium thiosulffate. Water is often used as a stop. All but > the phenidone should be close at hand. Ten grams of phenidone will > make 250 liters of developer. Likely that would be mail-order. I'll have to look around for them. I have not seen them sold here, and have seen several questions, but never any answers about buying them.
Thanks,
Geoff.
 Signature Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Rod Smith - 24 Aug 2007 18:42 GMT >> All that's needed for film and paper developers is ascorbic acid, >> phenidone, and sodium carbonate and/or borax. For fixer all that is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'll have to look around for them. I have not seen them sold here, > and have seen several questions, but never any answers about buying them. The problem is that you're in Israel, whereas most people reading this newsgroup are in the United States or Europe, with perhaps a few more in other countries. We just don't know what specific sources of supply to recommend.
You might consider checking out APUG (http://www.apug.org). My impression is that it's less US-dominated than this newsgroup. At the very least, there are lots of active European members. Although I don't recall any specific posters from Israel, there may be some lurkers or others who can recommend likely TYPES of places to look for stuff, or non-Israeli sources who'll ship to Israel for reasonable prices. (As I've posted before, JD Photochem in Canada [http://www.jdphotochem.com] ships internationally.)
Among common developer and fixer ingredients, sodium sulfite, sodium carbonate, and either sodium thiosulfate or ammonium thiosulfate will be your heaviest items, and therefore the ones that are most important to locate locally to minimize shipping costs. Check Lloyd Erlick's site (http://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/bulkchem.htm) for one man's tale of locating a local source of bulk chemicals in Canada. Although his source is likely useless to you, his procedures for finding it might help. Another resource might be the Household Products Database (http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov). Click the "Ingredients" tab and type in a chemical name to see what sorts of products use it. For instance, I typed in "sodium thiosulfate" and found that it's used in ammonia remover for goldfish tanks, so checking pet stores might turn some up. (Chances are you'd pay ridiculous prices at a pet store, though.)
 Signature Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking
Richard Knoppow - 24 Aug 2007 07:12 GMT >> Any recemondations for a commonly available liquid paper >> developer? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Very easy to > see and do in my darkroom. Dan Both developers and fixers need an anti-oxidixing agent. In traditional powder formulas this is usually Sodium Sulfite but there are other agents that perform the same duty in liquid concentrates. While there is an ocassional flurry of enthusiasm for making developers without Sulfite they really have no advantage. Sulfite in fixing baths is necessary even when the bath is neutral to protect the Thiosulfate from oxidation from the air and to prevent staining from carried over developer. It is used in acid fixing baths in excess to prevent decomposition of the fixer by the acid. Sulfite performs several functions in developers. Beside protecting the developing agents from oxidation from the air the sulfite also acts to regenerate developer reaction products, to prevent staining from these products, and as a halide solvent. The action of a halide solvent is quite mis-understood, it does not "etch" the silver crystals, rather it changes the way the halide crystals develop into metallic and, in moderate amounts, removes a small amount of the crystal surface exposing more development centers and increasing effective film speed a little. In greater quantity, as in some fine grain developers, it can reduce film speed by destroying some of the development centers. The amount of Sulfite will not by itself tell you much about the solvent activity becuse that is a complex function of the Sulfite and the activity of the developing agents. For instance, D-23 and D-25, an exta-fine-grain developer, have exactly the same amount of Sulfite, but D-23 is buffered to neutral and is much less active than D-23. So, D-23 grain and film speed is about the same as D-76 but D-25 looses about one stop of speed while delivering about 1/2 the speed. Not much sulfite is needed in a neutral fixer, about 5 grams per liter will do. More provides some reserve to take care of carried over developer. However, there are advantages to regular acid fixers even when they are not hardening fixers. Acid fixing baths usually have about 15 grams per liter of Sulfite. Its certainly true that not much is needed to make up developers and fixing baths. Film can be developed with D-23, which contains only Metol and Sulfite. A more active developer is needed for paper but can be made up of the above with the addition of Sodium or Potassium Carbonate, hydroquinone (or ascorbic acid), and some Potassium bromide. Formulas for developers and fixing baths abound on the web.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
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