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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / August 2007

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Landscapes in low contrast light

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sreenath - 18 Jul 2007 09:10 GMT
Hi All,

I recently shot a roll of 35mm film; mostly landscape in cloudy
conditions. Since I use grade2 paper, I decided
to increase contrast by developing for more time.

I learnt from rec.photo.darkroom that an increse of approximately 30
percent in development time would increase
contrast by one grade a paper; and that would also increase film
speed. Therefore, I metered the film at 200(the
speed mentioned on the box is 125. This is a generic 125 ASA film
imported and cut repacked in India).

I was not sure if shadow details would be recorded properly, and when
I developed the film, shadow areas were almost non-existent. Even
though I used a variant of Ilford ID-68, a phenidone based developer,
the shadow areas were not developed.

So my question is, how should I meter for landscapes in low contrast
lighting situations? If I meter at the speed
mentioned by the manufacturer AND develop the film for 30 percent
extra time, would the negative not be too dense?

thanks,
Sreenath
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 18 Jul 2007 10:44 GMT
The following is pure opionion based on no facts, treat it
that way.

> I recently shot a roll of 35mm film; mostly landscape in cloudy
> conditions. Since I use grade2 paper, I decided
> to increase contrast by developing for more time.

Normal film exposure and developing is based upon everything averaging
out to the 18% gray. If you use an 18% gray target to meter your
exposure, and then expose a "normal" scene and develop it normally, you
will get a "good" picture.

That's how old style enlarging light meters worked, a diffuser was
placed in front of the lens to "average" the exposure.

Until APS cameras came out, this was the standard for developing labs
that actually metered their printing exposure and for color film, color
balance. APS film included a magentic strip for recording exposure
information and APS printers were supposed to read it and use the
information to make a better printing exposure.

This technology was improved to the point that a digital scan is made of
a negative and the information from the scan is used instead. That among
other things doomed APS, as you could get the same results from film
without the magnetic strip and 35mm cameras were so much more common and
had bigger (which is better) negatives.

I mention this because, you as a photographer and printer can use your
brain to do the same thing, and produce negatives you like and prints
you like from them.

The most famous system of metering parts of scene and using it to
determine how to expose it is the ZONE system. There are others and
hardware, from a camera that used multiple manual metering and averaged
them (one of the Olympus OM cameras, but I forget which), to the Nikon
multisegment meter in the 8008 which has since been improved and used by
many other companies.

When I first met my wife, she had an 18% gray poodle, who gave me a
metering target in every photograph he was in. :-)

Before you start all sorts of development and printing tricks, I suggest
that you use a simple method. Find a scene you wish to photograph and
pick a spot in it which you want to see the most detail. Meter
that spot and use that exposure. While you are there, take exposures
in have stop increments above and below for about three stops.

Do this several times until you have used up your roll of film.

Develop it normally.

Look at the negatives. A simple way, since you already have a darkroom is
to use your enlarger to project them on the back of an old print.
Look carefully. Choose the one that gives you the best combination of
shadow and hightlight detail that you want.

If you can't get both, try a different film or developer. This IMHO is
far easier than trying different combinations of development, though
you can obviously do that too.

Eventually you will hit on a combination of film, developer and exposure
that suits your liking and meter.

Or maybe not. As you say later you are in India, some films are not available
there, too expensive to buy locally, or the postage would be prohibitive
from an overseas order if you can do it.

You will get something close and you can work with that.

So once you have your "ideal" negative, you can play around with printing it.

Besides adjusting contrast grades (or changing papers), you can adjust printing
exposure. Adjusting printing development never did much for me, you may see
it differently.

Remember that prints look different when they dry.

> So my question is, how should I meter for landscapes in low contrast
> lighting situations? If I meter at the speed
> mentioned by the manufacturer AND develop the film for 30 percent
> extra time, would the negative not be too dense?

I think that's an almost impossible question to answer accurately. 30%
extra development will probably (not all developers work that way)
result in a much denser negative. If it is too dense or not is a matter
of personal choice. Some films handle overdevelopment or overexposure
gracefully, some (T-Max?) don't.

Geoff.

Signature

Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

Peter - 19 Jul 2007 18:20 GMT
> Hi All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> thanks,
> Sreenath

I note you haven't mentioned anything about the highlights.

That you want to raise the paper grade by one, since the scene is
somewhat flat, sounds conjectural unless you've tried normal exposure
and development with that film and developer combination.  Normal
processing and exposure sometimes hits #2 paper pretty close.

If the shadows were gone with mild under exposure, there are a number
of possibilities.  Getting a range of experience with the film first
should be high on the list of tasks.  Some films and scenes I find I
have to over expose no matter how much I develop if I want to use an
incident meter.  With a spot meter and metering the shadows that you
want to keep your choices should have produced ample shadow detail so
there is more work to do if that is what you did.  Still, in cloudy
conditions, there would normally be a bit more shadow detail than you
seem to suggest.

The general tone of your message leaves open a bit of uncertainty
about the film ("This is a generic 125 ASA film imported and cut
repacked in India").  This sounds quite different from describing your
test results with the film.

The remark about a variant of ID-68, a phenidone developer is also a
worry. The agent or trade name of the developer may not be as
important as the freshness, temperature or experience with the
"generic" film.

Well, I really don't know what is wrong, but there are some
suggestions.
Richard Knoppow - 20 Jul 2007 09:11 GMT
> Hi All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> thanks,
> Sreenath

  First of all the developing agent has little effect on
shadow detail.
  If there was no shadow detail the negatives were
underexposed even if given more development.
  Since the scene is of low contast the density will
probably not be excessive even if given normal exposure and
extended development. What you want is to get shadows of
normal density and highlights of greater density, that's how
the contrast is increased.
  To get a better understanding of this study the
characteristic curve of a film. Kodak data sheets have good
graphs of the film curves, sometimes with several developing
times shown. The graph shows exposure along the X axis
increasing as it moves from right to left. Density is shown
in the Y axis increasing as it goes from bottom to top. The
slope of the characteristic is the contrast, i.e., the rate
that density changes with exposure. You will notice that the
low exposure part of the characteristic does not go straight
into the base line but rather is curved so that its contrast
increases gradually until the body of the curve is pretty
straight. This low exposure section is called the "toe". The
idea of correct exposure is to place the minimum expoure
that is to have any detail up far enough on the toe so that
it will have adequate contrast for printing. Note that for
many films the slope of the straight portion of the curve
does not change very much up to very high values of exposure
and densities, often further than the usual film curves
show. When exposure is increased it moves all values to the
right. So, the contrast of the low exposure values increases
but the higher exposure parts don't change much. This is the
way to increase shadow detail where highlight detail is OK,
in short, increase the exposure.
  When development is increased the slope of the entire
curve is increased. This increases contrast for all values
of gray but the low exposure part (toe) is still lower than
the rest. Where most of the desirable exposure is in the
toe, as in great underexposure, an increse in exposure will
make the toe section high enough in contrast to print well.
If there is exposure in the "normal" section of the curve it
will become very high in contrast. This is a condition quite
familiar to those who push film for available light
photography.
  The overall increase in density caused by increasing
exposure will, of course, require an increase in printing
exposure of about the same amount _except_ that there will
be a change in the tone rendition for the shadows which will
have more detail. Where overall contrast is low due to a low
contrast scene its probable that an increase in development
with _normal_ exposure will result in better shadow detail.
The usually recommended reduction in exposure is to keep the
highlight densities about the same despite the increase in
contrast, but here, the highlight densities are probably too
low to begin with so reducing exposure will make the problem
worse despite the increased development.
   This is a sort of wordy explanation of something that a
few illustrations would make clear but, since I don't have
that alternative, I hope the word description is helpful.
Write back if its isn't and I will try to do better.
   The name for  this whole area of photography is known as
sensitometry. I don't know if there is a good elementary
treatice on it on the web, it would be helpful if there was.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

sreenath - 20 Jul 2007 12:51 GMT
Thanks for all the informative responses.

This  film is supposed to be repacked NP22 film from erstwhile ORWO.
This is a descent film.

Zone suggests "expose for shadows.., develop for highlights" That was
basis for my experiment. Since I decided to increase development time,
I automatically reduced the exposure.

So I guess, I will expose normally, AND overdevelop. The highlight
details might still be more, but perhaps one cant help that.
Perhaps it would have been easier to use higher grade paper!

When I see famous photographs of landscapes, even cloudy ones with lot
of clouds, they appear to have proper highlights. So I was wondering
how it is done.

Once again, thanks for all the helpful comments.
Sreenath

>    First of all the developing agent has little effect on
> shadow detail.
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> Los Angeles, CA, USA
> dickb...@ix.netcom.com
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 20 Jul 2007 13:44 GMT
> When I see famous photographs of landscapes, even cloudy ones with lot
> of clouds, they appear to have proper highlights. So I was wondering
> how it is done.

The modern method is to lighten them in photoshop. Before that,
gradient netural density filters were (and still are) used.
They are darker at the top than the bottom. The trick in using
them is to position the area where they fade, or the split if
they are just split filters where it "looks natural", around
the horizon.

Without using the filters, you use a film/developer combination that can
stand several stops of overexposure. For example, NOT T-MAX. Then using
a piece of carboard covering the top, you expose the bottom of the
picture, which will contain the shadows, and then remove the cardboard
to finish the exposure.

This gives the bottom the total exposure and the top a shorter exposure.
You can also do it by placing the cardboard on the bottom. Either way,
if you have an under lens red filter that works well enough to not
expose the paper, you can use it so that you see what you are
(un)covering.

If you move the cardboard slightly, without moving anything else
or wiggle you hands over the edge, you can soften its effect
so that there is not a clear line on the print.

If you have a gradient filter and enough room in your negative
carrier, you could also use when printing.

As for ORWO film, their KB25 film is IMHO wonderful for landscapes.
I don't know if it is still availble, or the replacment is available
in India. Over the years, it was made by Adox, then ORWO, then Efke,
and now I think is sold under the Adox name again. I've long since
lost track of it, and have no way of getting it.

Geoff.

Signature

Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

Peter - 20 Jul 2007 21:19 GMT
> > When I see famous photographs of landscapes, even cloudy ones with lot
> > of clouds, they appear to have proper highlights. So I was wondering
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
> Visit my 'blog athttp://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

Last I checked foto impex in Germany carried it (try
http://www.fotoimpex.de/anglicus/index.html ).
David Nebenzahl - 20 Jul 2007 21:23 GMT
On 7/20/2007 5:44 AM Geoffrey S. Mendelson spake thus:<br>

>> When I see famous photographs of landscapes, even cloudy ones with lot
>> of clouds, they appear to have proper highlights. So I was wondering
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> they are just split filters where it "looks natural", around
> the horizon.

Hmmph; I don't think the likes of, say, Ansel Adams ever used such
filters, and yet got perfectly-rendered highlights and shadows.
Richard Knoppow - 22 Jul 2007 15:59 GMT
> On 7/20/2007 5:44 AM Geoffrey S. Mendelson spake thus:<br>
> >
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> used such filters, and yet got perfectly-rendered
> highlights and shadow

    Sometimes with the aid of heroic burning and dodging in
printing or printing masks. One reason Adams got interested
in the Zone System was that he had problems with making good
negatives of some of the subjects he photographed.
    The Zone System is based on the idea that the contrast
and density range of the negative should be adjusted
according to the subject so that prints can always be made
on "normal" contrast paper. That sounds like it makes sense
but does thats not always so. For instance, the visual
contrast of the print must be acceptable to the eye.  The
eye judges contrast mostly by mid gray tones. So, it a very
high contrast scene is rendered with much lower overall
contrast it will not look natural but, rather, will seem
grayed down, even though there is a full range of tones from
maximum black to paper white and detail in all sections.
When a low contrast scene is made high contrast the eye may
accept it because the eye seems more tollerant of an
increase in contrast, but again, if the scene is a familiar
one, it will look wrong.
    Adams was also concerned with getting all the values in
a scene recorded on the film. Although its often thought
that the films of the time shouldered off at fairly low
densites the published curves for 1940's films show that
most of them had pretty a pretty good range of densities.
   Probably the most thorough work on tone reproduction was
done under the leadership of Loyd A. Jones of Kodak Research
Labs. He and his associates published many papers describing
their measurement of actual scene contrast and its
reproduction. Jones also worked out the Kodak Speed system.
This was later adopted by the ASA with some unfortunate
changes. The current ISO method, while different than Jones'
method still retains his idea that exposure should be
sufficient to get the dark parts of the image which are to
have detail far enough up the toe to have adequate contrast.
Jones' criteria, based on tests with hundreds of prints of
many differing subjects, was that the minimum contast point
should be no less than 1/3rd the gamma (contrast) of the
straight line portion of the film characteristic. He found
that images with less exposure were judged to be inferior
while an increase in exposure did not make any difference
over a range of a great many stops. In effect he found that
there was a certain minimum exposure needed for good quality
but that once this was reached increased exposure made
little or no difference even though the negatives might be
dense enough to be hard to print.
   Because materials of the time showed increased grain and
image spread with density (image spread leads to lower
sharpness) he decided to base his speed system on the
minimum exposure for good shadow detail.
   All negatives were developed to the same contrast. The
contrast was such as to result in a gamma of about 1.0 on
the mid tones of the print. Reflection prints have a
relatively limited range of tones from minimum to maximum,
they can not, if viewed normally, have any tone brighter
than the ambient illumination. Transparencies can be back
illuminated or projected resulting in a much longer range of
reproduced brightness.
   The usual method of the time (and more so now with VC
paper) was to make negatives of "normal" contrast and adjust
the paper grade where the nature of the scene required
something other than normal toner rendition.
   Where the tone rendition must be distorted, that is
different contrast values in shadows, mid-tones, and
highlights, it must be done by burning and dodging or by
using a mask to accomplish the same purpose. Simply
adjusting negative contrast will not do it.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

UC - 24 Jul 2007 20:37 GMT
> Thanks for all the informative responses.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> basis for my experiment. Since I decided to increase development time,
> I automatically reduced the exposure.

No. You need to expose the shadows.

> So I guess, I will expose normally, AND overdevelop.

No. Wrong. Don't do that.

>The highlight
> details might still be more, but perhaps one cant help that.
> Perhaps it would have been easier to use higher grade paper!

Yes. Quite.

> When I see famous photographs of landscapes, even cloudy ones with lot
> of clouds, they appear to have proper highlights. So I was wondering
> how it is done.

8x10 view camera.

> Once again, thanks for all the helpful comments.
> Sreenath
UC - 24 Jul 2007 20:34 GMT
> Hi All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> thanks,
> Sreenath

You did everything wrong.

1) You should not attempt to make landcsapes on a cloudy day. There is
simply not enough modelling in the light to make them interesting.

2) 35mm is best suited for dynamic photography, not landscapes

3) You should use grade 3 paper with 35mm, not grade 2

4) You should NOT increase negative contrast to get more print
contrast; instead, use a higher grade.

5) You should NOT underexpose the film, ever.

6) Why are you doing landscapes anyway?
Francis A. Miniter - 24 Jul 2007 23:41 GMT
>>Hi All,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> 6) Why are you doing landscapes anyway?

Damn!  Your disposition has not improved over the years, has it?

As to your points:

1.     Modelling?  Anyways, you weren't there.  He may have seen something very
interesting.  My advice would be to pre-expose the film to the sky for a quarter
second or so to add density to the shadow values, then overexpose the film when
taking the shot by at least one full step (EI 50 to 60).  That way, there will
be a greater likelihood of getting some shadow detail and the highlights would
be one further step up, thereby increasing contrast.

2.     You shoot what you have or have with you.  8X10 sheet film will give better
results than 35 mm film for most images, but I don't keep such a camera in my trunk.

3.     Or grade 4, or, perhaps, variable contrast and crank it up.

4.     I have no trouble increasing negative film contrast.  That can be done
either by extended development, or even post-development, by toning the negative
in Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner.

5.     The particular situation does not call for underexposure.  However, UC,
should know full well that there are situations calling for underexposure.  If
your meter informs you that the contrast range is, say, 12 stops, and your film
generally handles no more than 10 stops, then some underexposure will be
necessary to keep the highlights from blowing out.

6.     Why are you complaining about the subject matter of his pictures?

Francis A. Miniter
jjs - 25 Jul 2007 01:09 GMT
[...]

Maybe you should go back into treatment, "UC".
CALI - 29 Jul 2007 01:04 GMT
i want to show you my last work i use digital camera.

www.elarteonline.com/mariasiccardi
David Nebenzahl - 29 Jul 2007 02:50 GMT
On 7/28/2007 5:04 PM CALI spake thus:

> i want to show you my last work i use digital camera.
>
> www.elarteonline.com/mariasiccardi

Spam goes three doors down to the left.
UC - 05 Aug 2007 22:15 GMT
> i want to show you my last work i use digital camera.
>
> www.elarteonline.com/mariasiccardi

Why is it that the least competent are the first ones to jump on the
digital bandwagon, and the first ones to expose their crappy work via
web sites?
pico - 05 Aug 2007 23:22 GMT
<claudia.sicca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i want to show you my last work i use digital camera.
>
> www.elarteonline.com/mariasiccardi

Can't see it. Get rid of the Flash and glitz.
David Nebenzahl - 06 Aug 2007 00:23 GMT
On 8/5/2007 2:15 PM UC spake thus:

>> i want to show you my last work i use digital camera.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> digital bandwagon, and the first ones to expose their crappy work via
> web sites?

UC, I'm surprised at you. You're losing your grip. That's practically a
rhetorical question, isn't it?
 
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