Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / August 2007
Landscapes in low contrast light
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sreenath - 18 Jul 2007 09:10 GMT Hi All,
I recently shot a roll of 35mm film; mostly landscape in cloudy conditions. Since I use grade2 paper, I decided to increase contrast by developing for more time.
I learnt from rec.photo.darkroom that an increse of approximately 30 percent in development time would increase contrast by one grade a paper; and that would also increase film speed. Therefore, I metered the film at 200(the speed mentioned on the box is 125. This is a generic 125 ASA film imported and cut repacked in India).
I was not sure if shadow details would be recorded properly, and when I developed the film, shadow areas were almost non-existent. Even though I used a variant of Ilford ID-68, a phenidone based developer, the shadow areas were not developed.
So my question is, how should I meter for landscapes in low contrast lighting situations? If I meter at the speed mentioned by the manufacturer AND develop the film for 30 percent extra time, would the negative not be too dense?
thanks, Sreenath
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 18 Jul 2007 10:44 GMT The following is pure opionion based on no facts, treat it that way.
> I recently shot a roll of 35mm film; mostly landscape in cloudy > conditions. Since I use grade2 paper, I decided > to increase contrast by developing for more time. Normal film exposure and developing is based upon everything averaging out to the 18% gray. If you use an 18% gray target to meter your exposure, and then expose a "normal" scene and develop it normally, you will get a "good" picture.
That's how old style enlarging light meters worked, a diffuser was placed in front of the lens to "average" the exposure.
Until APS cameras came out, this was the standard for developing labs that actually metered their printing exposure and for color film, color balance. APS film included a magentic strip for recording exposure information and APS printers were supposed to read it and use the information to make a better printing exposure.
This technology was improved to the point that a digital scan is made of a negative and the information from the scan is used instead. That among other things doomed APS, as you could get the same results from film without the magnetic strip and 35mm cameras were so much more common and had bigger (which is better) negatives.
I mention this because, you as a photographer and printer can use your brain to do the same thing, and produce negatives you like and prints you like from them.
The most famous system of metering parts of scene and using it to determine how to expose it is the ZONE system. There are others and hardware, from a camera that used multiple manual metering and averaged them (one of the Olympus OM cameras, but I forget which), to the Nikon multisegment meter in the 8008 which has since been improved and used by many other companies.
When I first met my wife, she had an 18% gray poodle, who gave me a metering target in every photograph he was in. :-)
Before you start all sorts of development and printing tricks, I suggest that you use a simple method. Find a scene you wish to photograph and pick a spot in it which you want to see the most detail. Meter that spot and use that exposure. While you are there, take exposures in have stop increments above and below for about three stops.
Do this several times until you have used up your roll of film.
Develop it normally.
Look at the negatives. A simple way, since you already have a darkroom is to use your enlarger to project them on the back of an old print. Look carefully. Choose the one that gives you the best combination of shadow and hightlight detail that you want.
If you can't get both, try a different film or developer. This IMHO is far easier than trying different combinations of development, though you can obviously do that too.
Eventually you will hit on a combination of film, developer and exposure that suits your liking and meter.
Or maybe not. As you say later you are in India, some films are not available there, too expensive to buy locally, or the postage would be prohibitive from an overseas order if you can do it.
You will get something close and you can work with that.
So once you have your "ideal" negative, you can play around with printing it.
Besides adjusting contrast grades (or changing papers), you can adjust printing exposure. Adjusting printing development never did much for me, you may see it differently.
Remember that prints look different when they dry.
> So my question is, how should I meter for landscapes in low contrast > lighting situations? If I meter at the speed > mentioned by the manufacturer AND develop the film for 30 percent > extra time, would the negative not be too dense? I think that's an almost impossible question to answer accurately. 30% extra development will probably (not all developers work that way) result in a much denser negative. If it is too dense or not is a matter of personal choice. Some films handle overdevelopment or overexposure gracefully, some (T-Max?) don't.
Geoff.
 Signature Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Peter - 19 Jul 2007 18:20 GMT > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > thanks, > Sreenath I note you haven't mentioned anything about the highlights.
That you want to raise the paper grade by one, since the scene is somewhat flat, sounds conjectural unless you've tried normal exposure and development with that film and developer combination. Normal processing and exposure sometimes hits #2 paper pretty close.
If the shadows were gone with mild under exposure, there are a number of possibilities. Getting a range of experience with the film first should be high on the list of tasks. Some films and scenes I find I have to over expose no matter how much I develop if I want to use an incident meter. With a spot meter and metering the shadows that you want to keep your choices should have produced ample shadow detail so there is more work to do if that is what you did. Still, in cloudy conditions, there would normally be a bit more shadow detail than you seem to suggest.
The general tone of your message leaves open a bit of uncertainty about the film ("This is a generic 125 ASA film imported and cut repacked in India"). This sounds quite different from describing your test results with the film.
The remark about a variant of ID-68, a phenidone developer is also a worry. The agent or trade name of the developer may not be as important as the freshness, temperature or experience with the "generic" film.
Well, I really don't know what is wrong, but there are some suggestions.
Richard Knoppow - 20 Jul 2007 09:11 GMT > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > thanks, > Sreenath First of all the developing agent has little effect on shadow detail. If there was no shadow detail the negatives were underexposed even if given more development. Since the scene is of low contast the density will probably not be excessive even if given normal exposure and extended development. What you want is to get shadows of normal density and highlights of greater density, that's how the contrast is increased. To get a better understanding of this study the characteristic curve of a film. Kodak data sheets have good graphs of the film curves, sometimes with several developing times shown. The graph shows exposure along the X axis increasing as it moves from right to left. Density is shown in the Y axis increasing as it goes from bottom to top. The slope of the characteristic is the contrast, i.e., the rate that density changes with exposure. You will notice that the low exposure part of the characteristic does not go straight into the base line but rather is curved so that its contrast increases gradually until the body of the curve is pretty straight. This low exposure section is called the "toe". The idea of correct exposure is to place the minimum expoure that is to have any detail up far enough on the toe so that it will have adequate contrast for printing. Note that for many films the slope of the straight portion of the curve does not change very much up to very high values of exposure and densities, often further than the usual film curves show. When exposure is increased it moves all values to the right. So, the contrast of the low exposure values increases but the higher exposure parts don't change much. This is the way to increase shadow detail where highlight detail is OK, in short, increase the exposure. When development is increased the slope of the entire curve is increased. This increases contrast for all values of gray but the low exposure part (toe) is still lower than the rest. Where most of the desirable exposure is in the toe, as in great underexposure, an increse in exposure will make the toe section high enough in contrast to print well. If there is exposure in the "normal" section of the curve it will become very high in contrast. This is a condition quite familiar to those who push film for available light photography. The overall increase in density caused by increasing exposure will, of course, require an increase in printing exposure of about the same amount _except_ that there will be a change in the tone rendition for the shadows which will have more detail. Where overall contrast is low due to a low contrast scene its probable that an increase in development with _normal_ exposure will result in better shadow detail. The usually recommended reduction in exposure is to keep the highlight densities about the same despite the increase in contrast, but here, the highlight densities are probably too low to begin with so reducing exposure will make the problem worse despite the increased development. This is a sort of wordy explanation of something that a few illustrations would make clear but, since I don't have that alternative, I hope the word description is helpful. Write back if its isn't and I will try to do better. The name for this whole area of photography is known as sensitometry. I don't know if there is a good elementary treatice on it on the web, it would be helpful if there was.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
sreenath - 20 Jul 2007 12:51 GMT Thanks for all the informative responses.
This film is supposed to be repacked NP22 film from erstwhile ORWO. This is a descent film.
Zone suggests "expose for shadows.., develop for highlights" That was basis for my experiment. Since I decided to increase development time, I automatically reduced the exposure.
So I guess, I will expose normally, AND overdevelop. The highlight details might still be more, but perhaps one cant help that. Perhaps it would have been easier to use higher grade paper!
When I see famous photographs of landscapes, even cloudy ones with lot of clouds, they appear to have proper highlights. So I was wondering how it is done.
Once again, thanks for all the helpful comments. Sreenath
> First of all the developing agent has little effect on > shadow detail. [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > Los Angeles, CA, USA > dickb...@ix.netcom.com Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 20 Jul 2007 13:44 GMT > When I see famous photographs of landscapes, even cloudy ones with lot > of clouds, they appear to have proper highlights. So I was wondering > how it is done. The modern method is to lighten them in photoshop. Before that, gradient netural density filters were (and still are) used. They are darker at the top than the bottom. The trick in using them is to position the area where they fade, or the split if they are just split filters where it "looks natural", around the horizon.
Without using the filters, you use a film/developer combination that can stand several stops of overexposure. For example, NOT T-MAX. Then using a piece of carboard covering the top, you expose the bottom of the picture, which will contain the shadows, and then remove the cardboard to finish the exposure.
This gives the bottom the total exposure and the top a shorter exposure. You can also do it by placing the cardboard on the bottom. Either way, if you have an under lens red filter that works well enough to not expose the paper, you can use it so that you see what you are (un)covering.
If you move the cardboard slightly, without moving anything else or wiggle you hands over the edge, you can soften its effect so that there is not a clear line on the print.
If you have a gradient filter and enough room in your negative carrier, you could also use when printing.
As for ORWO film, their KB25 film is IMHO wonderful for landscapes. I don't know if it is still availble, or the replacment is available in India. Over the years, it was made by Adox, then ORWO, then Efke, and now I think is sold under the Adox name again. I've long since lost track of it, and have no way of getting it.
Geoff.
 Signature Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Peter - 20 Jul 2007 21:19 GMT > > When I see famous photographs of landscapes, even cloudy ones with lot > > of clouds, they appear to have proper highlights. So I was wondering [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 > Visit my 'blog athttp://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ Last I checked foto impex in Germany carried it (try http://www.fotoimpex.de/anglicus/index.html ).
David Nebenzahl - 20 Jul 2007 21:23 GMT On 7/20/2007 5:44 AM Geoffrey S. Mendelson spake thus:<br>
>> When I see famous photographs of landscapes, even cloudy ones with lot >> of clouds, they appear to have proper highlights. So I was wondering [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > they are just split filters where it "looks natural", around > the horizon. Hmmph; I don't think the likes of, say, Ansel Adams ever used such filters, and yet got perfectly-rendered highlights and shadows.
Richard Knoppow - 22 Jul 2007 15:59 GMT > On 7/20/2007 5:44 AM Geoffrey S. Mendelson spake thus:<br> > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > used such filters, and yet got perfectly-rendered > highlights and shadow Sometimes with the aid of heroic burning and dodging in printing or printing masks. One reason Adams got interested in the Zone System was that he had problems with making good negatives of some of the subjects he photographed. The Zone System is based on the idea that the contrast and density range of the negative should be adjusted according to the subject so that prints can always be made on "normal" contrast paper. That sounds like it makes sense but does thats not always so. For instance, the visual contrast of the print must be acceptable to the eye. The eye judges contrast mostly by mid gray tones. So, it a very high contrast scene is rendered with much lower overall contrast it will not look natural but, rather, will seem grayed down, even though there is a full range of tones from maximum black to paper white and detail in all sections. When a low contrast scene is made high contrast the eye may accept it because the eye seems more tollerant of an increase in contrast, but again, if the scene is a familiar one, it will look wrong. Adams was also concerned with getting all the values in a scene recorded on the film. Although its often thought that the films of the time shouldered off at fairly low densites the published curves for 1940's films show that most of them had pretty a pretty good range of densities. Probably the most thorough work on tone reproduction was done under the leadership of Loyd A. Jones of Kodak Research Labs. He and his associates published many papers describing their measurement of actual scene contrast and its reproduction. Jones also worked out the Kodak Speed system. This was later adopted by the ASA with some unfortunate changes. The current ISO method, while different than Jones' method still retains his idea that exposure should be sufficient to get the dark parts of the image which are to have detail far enough up the toe to have adequate contrast. Jones' criteria, based on tests with hundreds of prints of many differing subjects, was that the minimum contast point should be no less than 1/3rd the gamma (contrast) of the straight line portion of the film characteristic. He found that images with less exposure were judged to be inferior while an increase in exposure did not make any difference over a range of a great many stops. In effect he found that there was a certain minimum exposure needed for good quality but that once this was reached increased exposure made little or no difference even though the negatives might be dense enough to be hard to print. Because materials of the time showed increased grain and image spread with density (image spread leads to lower sharpness) he decided to base his speed system on the minimum exposure for good shadow detail. All negatives were developed to the same contrast. The contrast was such as to result in a gamma of about 1.0 on the mid tones of the print. Reflection prints have a relatively limited range of tones from minimum to maximum, they can not, if viewed normally, have any tone brighter than the ambient illumination. Transparencies can be back illuminated or projected resulting in a much longer range of reproduced brightness. The usual method of the time (and more so now with VC paper) was to make negatives of "normal" contrast and adjust the paper grade where the nature of the scene required something other than normal toner rendition. Where the tone rendition must be distorted, that is different contrast values in shadows, mid-tones, and highlights, it must be done by burning and dodging or by using a mask to accomplish the same purpose. Simply adjusting negative contrast will not do it.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
UC - 24 Jul 2007 20:37 GMT > Thanks for all the informative responses. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > basis for my experiment. Since I decided to increase development time, > I automatically reduced the exposure. No. You need to expose the shadows.
> So I guess, I will expose normally, AND overdevelop. No. Wrong. Don't do that.
>The highlight > details might still be more, but perhaps one cant help that. > Perhaps it would have been easier to use higher grade paper! Yes. Quite.
> When I see famous photographs of landscapes, even cloudy ones with lot > of clouds, they appear to have proper highlights. So I was wondering > how it is done. 8x10 view camera.
> Once again, thanks for all the helpful comments. > Sreenath UC - 24 Jul 2007 20:34 GMT > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > thanks, > Sreenath You did everything wrong.
1) You should not attempt to make landcsapes on a cloudy day. There is simply not enough modelling in the light to make them interesting.
2) 35mm is best suited for dynamic photography, not landscapes
3) You should use grade 3 paper with 35mm, not grade 2
4) You should NOT increase negative contrast to get more print contrast; instead, use a higher grade.
5) You should NOT underexpose the film, ever.
6) Why are you doing landscapes anyway?
Francis A. Miniter - 24 Jul 2007 23:41 GMT >>Hi All, >> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > 6) Why are you doing landscapes anyway? Damn! Your disposition has not improved over the years, has it?
As to your points:
1. Modelling? Anyways, you weren't there. He may have seen something very interesting. My advice would be to pre-expose the film to the sky for a quarter second or so to add density to the shadow values, then overexpose the film when taking the shot by at least one full step (EI 50 to 60). That way, there will be a greater likelihood of getting some shadow detail and the highlights would be one further step up, thereby increasing contrast.
2. You shoot what you have or have with you. 8X10 sheet film will give better results than 35 mm film for most images, but I don't keep such a camera in my trunk.
3. Or grade 4, or, perhaps, variable contrast and crank it up.
4. I have no trouble increasing negative film contrast. That can be done either by extended development, or even post-development, by toning the negative in Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner.
5. The particular situation does not call for underexposure. However, UC, should know full well that there are situations calling for underexposure. If your meter informs you that the contrast range is, say, 12 stops, and your film generally handles no more than 10 stops, then some underexposure will be necessary to keep the highlights from blowing out.
6. Why are you complaining about the subject matter of his pictures?
Francis A. Miniter
jjs - 25 Jul 2007 01:09 GMT [...]
Maybe you should go back into treatment, "UC".
CALI - 29 Jul 2007 01:04 GMT i want to show you my last work i use digital camera.
www.elarteonline.com/mariasiccardi
David Nebenzahl - 29 Jul 2007 02:50 GMT On 7/28/2007 5:04 PM CALI spake thus:
> i want to show you my last work i use digital camera. > > www.elarteonline.com/mariasiccardi Spam goes three doors down to the left.
UC - 05 Aug 2007 22:15 GMT > i want to show you my last work i use digital camera. > > www.elarteonline.com/mariasiccardi Why is it that the least competent are the first ones to jump on the digital bandwagon, and the first ones to expose their crappy work via web sites?
pico - 05 Aug 2007 23:22 GMT <claudia.sicca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i want to show you my last work i use digital camera. > > www.elarteonline.com/mariasiccardi Can't see it. Get rid of the Flash and glitz.
David Nebenzahl - 06 Aug 2007 00:23 GMT On 8/5/2007 2:15 PM UC spake thus:
>> i want to show you my last work i use digital camera. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > digital bandwagon, and the first ones to expose their crappy work via > web sites? UC, I'm surprised at you. You're losing your grip. That's practically a rhetorical question, isn't it?
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