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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / August 2007

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Stand development - Uneven

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Peter Chant - 16 Jul 2007 13:12 GMT
Ok chaps,

it is not my week.  Tried stand development.  FP4+ exposed at 125.  Rodinal
1:150 for 1 hour, no agitation.  Patterson tank and reals. 600ml dev (500ml
needed to cover spool).  Could be just a fluke as I normally don't have
problems but:

http://www.petezilla.co.uk/gallery/Oddments

All bar the butterfly.  Seemed to effect the end of the film worst as some
other shots seem fine:

http://www.petezilla.co.uk/gallery/july-2007

I think is plain bad luck.

Interestingly, on the darker part of the house a clear 'unsharp mask' effect
can be seen in the sky next to the building.

Thoughts - again!

I'll look out a stainless steel tank and spools I think just to see what
happens!

Pete

Signature

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

jj - 16 Jul 2007 14:43 GMT
> Ok chaps,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> problems but:
> [...]

Stand development with Rodinal 1:150 is appropriate for relatively
high-contrast scenes (or N-2,N-1).

> I'll look out a stainless steel tank and spools I think just to see what
> happens!

Yes, do that. Seriously, Patterson reels are just terrible.
UC - 25 Jul 2007 14:26 GMT
> > Ok chaps,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Yes, do that. Seriously, Patterson reels are just terrible.

It's 'Paterson', dumbass, and thay are wonderful.
Bogdan Karasek - 26 Jul 2007 04:19 GMT
Hi,

I'm curious as to why there is this negative prejudice towards Paterson
plastic reels.  I've been using them for 10 years, about 10-15 reels a
week on average, and except for a half dozen times where I've had
problems (my fault, reels weren't completely dry),  the rest of the
time, it's been smooth sailing.  I use them for 127, 35mm and 120 film.

Why are stainless steel reels considered superior?

A curious mind wants to know!

Cheers,
Bogdan

>>Yes, do that. Seriously, Patterson reels are just terrible.
>
> It's 'Paterson', dumbass, and thay are wonderful.

Signature

________________________________________________________________
  Bogdan Karasek
  Montréal, Québec                     bogdan at bogdanphoto.com
  Canada                               www.bogdanphoto.com

                  "I photograph my reality"
________________________________________________________________

Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 26 Jul 2007 06:34 GMT
> I'm curious as to why there is this negative prejudice towards Paterson
> plastic reels.  I've been using them for 10 years, about 10-15 reels a
> week on average, and except for a half dozen times where I've had
> problems (my fault, reels weren't completely dry),  the rest of the
> time, it's been smooth sailing.  I use them for 127, 35mm and 120 film.

In the 1980's for about two years Paterson made reels with a teflon
coating. They are a light pink color instead of the usual white.
They were IMHO the best reels Paterson made.


> Why are stainless steel reels considered superior?

Some people have much better luck loading film onto them. It's
more a matter of what you like and are used to. I bought a whole
bunch of used darkroom stuff about 4 years ago and most of it
was stainless steel tanks and reels. I kept one set in the
best condition just because I thought I should and gave the
rest to someone else.

I'm happy because I don't have to use them, he's happy because
he can.

Geoff.

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Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

Peter Chant - 26 Jul 2007 19:18 GMT
> In the 1980's for about two years Paterson made reels with a teflon
> coating. They are a light pink color instead of the usual white.
> They were IMHO the best reels Paterson made.

I spray mine with furniture polish occasionally if sticking is a problem,
that seems to work and I've not noticed anything untoward, though YMMV.

Signature

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

Pieter - 26 Jul 2007 12:04 GMT
I duuno.  I like Paterson reels except that they take a bit of time to dry
out after use.  Not letting them dry causes the next film loaded to swell
and stick.  Stainless can be dried quicker since the loading is not
dependent on the film working its way down a tight fitting slot.

What really bugs me though, is the leaky covers on Paterson tanks.  I have
new tanks in all sizes, and they all leak right out of the box.  It takes
some determination to get the caps on just right to keep from being drowned
in photochemicals while agitating.

> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>>
>> It's 'Paterson', dumbass, and thay are wonderful.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 26 Jul 2007 14:19 GMT
> Why are stainless steel reels considered superior?

   "Oh! let us never, never doubt
    What nobody is sure about."

                           Hilaire Belloc

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Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

Rod Smith - 26 Jul 2007 23:07 GMT
> I'm curious as to why there is this negative prejudice towards Paterson
> plastic reels.  I've been using them for 10 years, about 10-15 reels a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Why are stainless steel reels considered superior?

I don't think there's a really widespread "prejudice" against Paterson
reels or tanks; if there were, they'd have long since disappeared from the
market. There ARE, however, people with preferences for one type of tank
or reel, and many of these people are quite willing to voice their
opinions.

As somebody who prefers stainless steel reels (at least, Hewes stainless
steel reels) over Paterson plastic reels, I'll say this: I frequently
(probably 25% of the time) have problems loading plastic reels. The film
tends to bind up, becoming difficult -- and eventually impossible -- to
load further onto the reel. This is an extremely frustrating experience,
and on a couple of occasions I ended up cutting the film and loading the
final 1/3 of a roll or so onto a second spool. This of course ruined one
frame (cut down the middle) and required twice as much chemistry to
develop. This problem is not because the reels are wet -- they've always
had over a day in which to air dry, and usually multiple days. I *SUSPECT*
(but do not know for sure) that the problem is moisture in the air -- at
the time I made the change to SS, I was loading my reels in a bathroom
which wasn't air conditioned, so the humidity was probably rather high. If
I'm correct, the problem would most likely not occur to people who can
load their film in air-conditioned rooms or in dry climates; but for those
without that luxury, the problem is a very serious one.

By contrast, my Hewes SS reels load very easily. I had no problem learning
to load them (contrary to the claims of their being difficult to learn to
load) -- but I also began using them after dealing with plastic reels for
a while, so maybe that experience helped me. Because of the way the SS
reels are loaded, binding because of moisture simply isn't an issue.

That said, I also have some cheap used no-name SS reels, and they're a
nightmare to load. I usually end up cross-threading them, which ruins
multiple frames. I don't use them any more, except as spacers when I want
to develop a single roll of film in a two-reel tank.

As a bonus, SS tanks require less solution volume to cover the reels than
do most plastic tanks. This saves a bit on chemical costs, although this
is admittedly a minor factor. My SS tanks also leak a bit less than my
AP-branded (Paterson clone) plastic tank.

None of this is to say that I think everybody should ditch their plastic
tanks and start using SS tanks and reels. My own experiences might not
match yours; you might not have the humidity problems that I suspect have
caused me difficulty, or you might have other concerns or special needs,
such as limited manual dexterity. If you're currently using plastic reels
and tanks and have no complaints about them, then there's no point in
spending money on new tanks and reels. If, OTOH, you *DO* have problems
with your current equipment, you might want to consider changing to
another type. The same comment applies to SS users, but in reverse -- if
you can't seem to get the reels loaded or if you have other problems you
think might be caused by the reel or tank type, it might make sense to try
plastic reels and tanks.

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Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

jch - 28 Jul 2007 06:30 GMT
>> I'm curious as to why there is this negative prejudice towards Paterson
>> plastic reels.  I've been using them for 10 years, about 10-15 reels a
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> load their film in air-conditioned rooms or in dry climates; but for those
> without that luxury, the problem is a very serious one.
_____
I agree with Rod about the difficulties loading film onto Paterson style
spools when the humidity is high.  I have suffered the consequences too.
 I found a solution.  Simply preheat the reels to, say, 120F-150F with
a small electric hair drier or in a heated film drying cabinet (i have a
home built one) for a minute or so.  Don't make the reel too hot or it
may deform.  This way all atmospheric moisture will be absent and stay
away while the film is threaded in.
Signature

Regards / JCH

Toni Nikkanen - 28 Jul 2007 11:36 GMT
I have an unrelated question about Paterson reels :) I only have one
reel, that can be adjusted for different film widths, I use 135 and
120 film. The adjustment procedure is, in my opinion, somewhat
"violent" and I'm always afraid that one of these days the reel will
break. Is this a real concern and should I buy another reel so I don't
need to adjust them anymore? (...and then a third one, so I can develop
two 135 rolls at the same time...)
Ron Todd - 28 Jul 2007 18:40 GMT
>I have an unrelated question about Paterson reels :) I only have one
>reel, that can be adjusted for different film widths, I use 135 and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>need to adjust them anymore? (...and then a third one, so I can develop
>two 135 rolls at the same time...)

Sounds reasonable.  I was always told to always put two 35mm reel in
when using 120 tank, the one with the film on it on the bottom. (Long
time ago, forgot the reason.)
David Nebenzahl - 28 Jul 2007 18:57 GMT
On 7/28/2007 10:40 AM Ron Todd spake thus:

>>I have an unrelated question about Paterson reels :) I only have one
>>reel, that can be adjusted for different film widths, I use 135 and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> when using 120 tank, the one with the film on it on the bottom. (Long
> time ago, forgot the reason.)

That's so that a single reel doesn't travel up and down in the tank when
inverting it, causing excessive agitation.

Regarding adjusting the reels, it's just a matter of not pulling the
reels apart (or pushing them together) except in the right position,
which you can feel by rotating them against each other until you feel
the "detent" position where they can be easily adjusted.
Rod Smith - 29 Jul 2007 19:27 GMT
> On 7/28/2007 10:40 AM Ron Todd spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> That's so that a single reel doesn't travel up and down in the tank when
> inverting it, causing excessive agitation.

The reason you cite makes some sense for SS reels and tanks; however, most
plastic reels and tanks place the reel on a central spindle with enough
friction to prevent much movement. The same advice applies to the plastic
reels and tanks, though, because the reels can slowly "climb" the central
spindle. (They don't move much on each agitation, but over the course of a
whole development cycle, they can, at least if the fit is a bit loose.) If
the reel "climbs" the spindle, and if you don't completely fill the tank,
the reel will end up only partially submerged in your solutions, resulting
in uneven development. This is likely to be worse than excessive
agitation.

Of course, if the reels become VERY loose on the spindles, they might
slide up and down substantially on each agitation, as you suggest, but the
standard Paterson and AP reels I've seen aren't like this. Perhaps they
could loosen to that point over years of use, though.

Signature

Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

jch - 28 Jul 2007 19:19 GMT
> I have an unrelated question about Paterson reels :) I only have one
> reel, that can be adjusted for different film widths, I use 135 and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> need to adjust them anymore? (...and then a third one, so I can develop
> two 135 rolls at the same time...)
_____
True.  Adjustment of movable side is a bit tight on most of my Paterson
reels, but for a good reason.  You don't want them to slide open during
processing.  I would just buy a few more reels like you said.  They are
not expensive.  I do indeed tend to leave the reels at the 135 and 120
size and use them for that particular film.
Signature

Regards / JCH

George Mastellone - 29 Jul 2007 18:13 GMT
> I have an unrelated question about Paterson reels :) I only have one
> reel, that can be adjusted for different film widths, I use 135 and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> need to adjust them anymore? (...and then a third one, so I can develop
> two 135 rolls at the same time...)

    Not sure if anyone has brought this up, but I know Jobo (they have
one type of reel that is basically the same as the Paterson design)makes
a point that wetting agents should not be used with the film on the reel
since traces are almost impossible to wash off.  Although the caveat was
specifically for E-6 final rinse, I wouldn't be surprised if other
wetting agent residues might cause sticking of the films and/or of the
"film size" adjustment.  I avoid the problem by using the plastic reels
for the occasional 120 roll and their stainless reels for 35mm and don't
worry about Jobo's warning!
Jean-David Beyer - 29 Jul 2007 21:07 GMT
>> I have an unrelated question about Paterson reels :) I only have one
>> reel, that can be adjusted for different film widths, I use 135 and
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> for the occasional 120 roll and their stainless reels for 35mm and don't
> worry about Jobo's warning!

I have heard this for years, but do not believe it. I use wetting agent in
the tanks on the reels all the time. The wetting agent is water soluble and
starts as a liquid anyway. I wash the reels and tanks with hot water very
soon after using them and have never had any trouble.

As I recall, Dr. Henry had problems with uneven development of 120 size film
on reels and someone suggested the "photoflo problem" to him. He took
extreme measures to remove any trace of wetting agent and it made no
difference at all.

I think this is just an old wive's tale.

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UC - 29 Jul 2007 22:38 GMT
> >> I have an unrelated question about Paterson reels :) I only have one
> >> reel, that can be adjusted for different film widths, I use 135 and
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> I think this is just an old wive's tale.

Indeed it is.
jjs - 31 Jul 2007 02:06 GMT
This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter
newbie crap. Case closed.
David Nebenzahl - 31 Jul 2007 05:07 GMT
On 7/30/2007 6:06 PM jjs spake thus:

> This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter
> newbie crap. Case closed.

Someone hasn't taken their Geritol today.
Bogdan Karasek - 31 Jul 2007 17:49 GMT
Hi,

Maybe the thread has become overextended but to use language like "utter
> newbie crap" tells us that you don't know what you are talking about;
 many people have reported utter satisfaction with Paterson plastic
reels; others prefer stainless steel reels.  So what? To each his own;
what works for you is what you stick with.

You also seem to suffer from a limited vocabulary.

regards,
Bogdan

> This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter
> newbie crap. Case closed.

Signature

________________________________________________________________
  Bogdan Karasek
  Montréal, Québec                     bogdan at bogdanphoto.com
  Canada                               www.bogdanphoto.com

                  "I photograph my reality"
________________________________________________________________

UC - 05 Aug 2007 22:12 GMT
> This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter
> newbie crap. Case closed.

I have used mine for 35 years, and absolutely love them. f.ck off,
moron.
pico - 05 Aug 2007 23:20 GMT
>> This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter
>> newbie crap. Case closed.
>
> I have used mine for 35 years, and absolutely love them. f.ck off,
> moron.

Show us some of your pictures made in the past five years.
UC - 06 Aug 2007 17:24 GMT
> >> This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter
> >> newbie crap. Case closed.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Show us some of your pictures made in the past five years.

Why? I have made thousands of negatives in the past five years. I
don't give a sh.t what you think.
pico - 07 Aug 2007 02:57 GMT
>>>> This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter
>>>> newbie crap. Case closed.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Why? I have made thousands of negatives in the past five years. I
> don't give a sh.t what you think.

TRANSLATION: I haven't done sh.t for thirty years.

If you had anything, you would show it.

Loser.
UC - 07 Aug 2007 15:52 GMT
> >>>> This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter
> >>>> newbie crap. Case closed.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Loser.

I don't care about photographic exhibition, moron.
David Nebenzahl - 07 Aug 2007 16:52 GMT
On 8/7/2007 7:52 AM UC spake thus:

>> >>>> This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter
>> >>>> newbie crap. Case closed.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> I don't care about photographic exhibition, moron.

Yes, and I think we all know why.
UC - 24 Jul 2007 20:39 GMT
> Ok chaps,
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> --http://www.petezilla.co.uk

Who told you not to agitate? Who told you to use Rodinal?

I use Paterson tanks and get EXCELLENT results.

Dumbass....
jjs - 25 Jul 2007 01:06 GMT
> Who told you not to agitate? Who told you to use Rodinal?
>
> I use Paterson tanks and get EXCELLENT results.

Hah! That's from a guy who hasn't taken a picture in thirty-five years
and when he did, it had uneven development.
Richard Knoppow - 24 Jul 2007 23:20 GMT
> Ok chaps,
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Pete

  I've never been much of a fan of stand or stagnant
development. The idea is that the reaction products of
development are allowed to become concentrated in the
vicinity of the image. The idea is that this will restrain
the image development in proportion to its density. Also,
since there is a concentration of reaction products at the
border of a high and low density area the reaction products
tend to restrain development in the low density region just
adjacent to the high density one while relatively fresh
developer diffusing into the emulsion from the low density
region tends to accelerate development on the high density
side. The effect is to strongly exagerate "acutance" or the
conrast of the low to high density areas in a very narrow
line surrounding the border. The width of the line being
controlled mostly by the rate of diffusion in the emulsion.
  This assumes the reaction products of the developer are
restrainers and not accelerators of development. This is
true for Rodinal but may not be for many Metol-Hydroquinone
developers.
  The assumption that the reaction products of development
stay in a small area concentrated around the development
centers is not always true. If the film or plate is exactly
horizontal the effect can work pretty well. However, when
film is vertical, as it usually is in a tank, the slight
variation in density of the reaction products can cause some
movement of the heavier materials before they can diffuse
out into the body of the developer. This can cause
directional streaking below high density areas due to the
flow of restraining chemicals there. There is still some
flow when the film is flat but it tends to move radially
along the surface. There is also an effect known as
"port-holing" due to the relative concentration of reaction
products near the center of large high density areas. This
results in lower density there.
  While stagnant development is supposed to result in high
acutance and a "compensating" effect, that is, the
production of a shoulder or lower contrast for highlights,
it often just produces very non-uniform negatives. While
many claim to get good negatives from this method and tout
it, I am very sceptacle.
  In photographic areas requiring very uniform results,
like sensitometry and motion picture photography, heroic
efforts are made to insure uniform and vigorous agitation.
The two often don't go together: for instance, the sprocket
holes of 35mm film and the spaces between the film windings
on a reel can cause exagerated turbulance in their immediate
vicinity causing increased development there. This sort of
uneveness is quite common and is familiar to those who
process roll and 35mm in tanks. The answer is not to over
agitate. In general the recommendation to invert an
invertible tank about once a second for either 5 seconds
every 30 seconds (Kodak recommendation) or for 10 seconds
once a minute (Ilford recommendation) will result in
reasonably uniform development although one can still find
some non-uniformity. More uniform development requires
constant agitation using some special techniques such as the
spray systems used for motion picture development or brush
development, sometimes used for sensitometric work. Another
method of improving uniformity is the use of bursts of gas
bubbles in sheet film tanks.
  All these efforts would not be necessary if stagnant
development was satisfactory in general applicaton. Its not.
Its a special technique essentially for a special effect.
IMO it should be avoided if one want's consistently good
negatives.

  Rodinal is an OK developer which works for nearly any
film (and is also a good albeit expensive paper developer at
about 1:30). However, Rodinal is probably not the optimum
developer for any film due to its tendency toward
graininess. This is less so with some modern films like
T-Max, which have hard enough emulsions to resist the
tendency of developed grains to migrate and clump, a result
of high pH in the developer. Also, grain is not so important
in large-format negatives. Where the grain can be tollerated
Rodinal is a convenient all-purpose developer with good tone
rendition.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

jjs - 25 Jul 2007 01:08 GMT
>    I've never been much of a fan of stand or stagnant
> development.

With respect, Sir Richard, have you tried it? Can you show anything you
have done with stand development that was unacceptable?
David Nebenzahl - 25 Jul 2007 01:17 GMT
On 7/24/2007 5:08 PM jjs spake thus:<br>

>>    I've never been much of a fan of stand or stagnant
>> development.
>
> With respect, Sir Richard, have you tried it? Can you show anything you
> have done with stand development that was unacceptable?

Well, even if Richard never personally tried stand development, I'd
trust what he has to say on the subject simply based on his encyclopedic
knowledge of the subject and familiarity with tons of source material.
jjs - 25 Jul 2007 01:33 GMT
> On 7/24/2007 5:08 PM jjs spake thus:<br>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> trust what he has to say on the subject simply based on his encyclopedic
> knowledge of the subject and familiarity with tons of source material.

Richard knows I'm a serious fan of his. Your little appeal is pathetic.

My post was intended to bring out just the post you just wrote. I rather
doubt Sir Richard would write about something he has not tried often.
Your posit is full of sh.t. An appeal to authority, ("even if Richard
... tried it") is utter bullshit.

The PROOF is in practice.

I use stand development when I want N-1 with Agfa 100 B&W. Woe be the
day I run out of it. Seriously. Maybe then my world will collapse, but I
stand by it. It works very, very well.

Tech: two rolls of 120 Agfa 100 in a two-roll tank, stainless steel
reels in a stainless Nikkor tank. Rodinal 1:200 at whatever room
temperature for 60 minutes (40 works, too). No streaks. No problems.
I'll look for some examples and put 'em up if you are in dire need of
reality.
David Nebenzahl - 25 Jul 2007 05:32 GMT
On 7/24/2007 5:33 PM jjs spake thus:<br>
>> On 7/24/2007 5:08 PM jjs spake thus:<br>
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> I'll look for some examples and put 'em up if you are in dire need of
> reality.

Well, f.ck you too, JJS.

Just because it worked for you (and I'll take your word for that)
doesn't mean that there are snares and pitfalls there for the unwary.
brownt@flash.net - 31 Jul 2007 18:42 GMT
> On 7/24/2007 5:33 PM jjs spake thus:<br>
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Just because it worked for you (and I'll take your word for that)
> doesn't mean that there are snares and pitfalls there for the unwary.

David,

It's best to ignore noise sources like jjs. Life's too short.

TB
jjs - 01 Aug 2007 03:08 GMT
>> Well, f.ck you too, JJS.
>>
>> Just because it worked for you (and I'll take your word for that)
>> doesn't mean that there are snares and pitfalls there for the unwary.

I've no idea where you are coming from. The approach is fairly
straightforward. Lighten up. It was a constructive post.

> It's best to ignore noise sources like jjs. Life's too short.

No problem. Ignore what you wish. I have been at it for over forty years
with many good images out there in the world.

So, it's more like f*ck-you for being unnecessarily defensive.
David Nebenzahl - 01 Aug 2007 05:21 GMT
On 7/31/2007 10:42 AM brownt@flash.net spake thus:

>> On 7/24/2007 5:33 PM jjs spake thus:<br>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> It's best to ignore noise sources like jjs. Life's too short.

Well, ackshooly, jjs is more than just a "noise source". Don't know how
long you've been around here (r.p.darkroom and other photo groups), but
he has posted some truly fascinating stuff in the past, especially
regarding his camera-hacking experiments.

He just needs his Geritol, that's all.
jjs - 01 Aug 2007 13:40 GMT
>> It's best to ignore noise sources like jjs. Life's too short.
>
> Well, ackshooly, jjs is more than just a "noise source". Don't know how
> long you've been around here (r.p.darkroom and other photo groups), but
> he has posted some truly fascinating stuff in the past, especially
> regarding his camera-hacking experiments.

I know of Richard's contributions very well and I appreciate his work.
He and I have corresponded, although I may have used my full name rather
than initials. I have been 'around here' forever, too.

That you think I differ in opinion and experience with stand development
is one thing; to cast aspersions is another. Let Richard speak for
himself. He does it quite well.
otzi - 03 Aug 2007 00:15 GMT
>>> It's best to ignore noise sources like jjs. Life's too short.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> is one thing; to cast aspersions is another. Let Richard speak for
> himself. He does it quite well.

Oh dear, dear, dear. We already have one senior citizen who seems to access
the more basic language in favour polite intercourse. I won't mention his
name for obvious reasons but goes under the initials of "uranium committee",
what ever that means. Now we have an other 55-60? gentleman who finds the
more basic language of the youth and uninformed more accessible that a more
dignified prose. Maybe it's long term chemical use in dark spaces.
Signature

Otzi

Peter Chant - 26 Jul 2007 19:16 GMT
Richard,

thanks for your long reply.  I don't think there is much I can respond to as
I do only a little processing on an amateur basis.  I thought I would give
it a go as I usually process using Rodinal.

> The effect is to strongly exagerate "acutance" or the
> conrast of the low to high density areas in a very narrow
> line surrounding the border. The width of the line being
> controlled mostly by the rate of diffusion in the emulsion.

Noticeable, and not good in the following:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/peter.chant/gallery/Oddments/crop0002.jpg

Look at the edge near the right-hand tower.

I suspect, from this neg and what you have said, that you need to be careful
to see whether the subject suits this technique.

> However, when
> film is vertical, as it usually is in a tank, the slight
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> products near the center of large high density areas. This
> results in lower density there.

Not aware of that, thanks.  Not quite what I saw but there must have been
some odd concentration gradient around part of my reel.

>    All these efforts would not be necessary if stagnant
> development was satisfactory in general applicaton. Its not.
> Its a special technique essentially for a special effect.
> IMO it should be avoided if one want's consistently good
> negatives.

I could see the time factor being important for commercial or other
practical reasons.

>    Rodinal is an OK developer which works for nearly any
> film (and is also a good albeit expensive paper developer at
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Rodinal is a convenient all-purpose developer with good tone
> rendition.

I mainly use Rodinal as it is convenient to me.  The amount of processing I
do is irregular.  I've lost too many part full bottles of Ilfosol-S.  I did
use ID-11 for quite a while which seems to be a good all round bet.
Rodinal seems very easy to use for me, once I get use to making the more
dilute solutions.   Lately I've been going down the MF route for B&W, so I
suppose grain size is not too much of an issue.  Do know that Delta 3200
and Rodinal for me is not a good combination.  To be frank, at the stage I
am at the relative merits of playing with various developers probably does
not matter too much, provided I get even development and a scannable
result.

I know the scanning comment is heresy to some here, but although I have
enough basic kit that I ought to be able to make decent prints I just have
not developed the craft skills that allow me to do so.  I make better
prints digitally.

Signature

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

Richard Knoppow - 27 Jul 2007 00:32 GMT
> Richard,
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> make better
> prints digitally.

   I've mostly used Rodinal for sheet film usually at
around 1:50 to get the time long enough for even
development. For sheets grain is not an issue and the tone
rendition is good. Rodinal works opposite to high sulfite
developers like D-76 in that it becomes finer grain as it is
diluted. In comparison its certainly grainier than
D-76/ID-11 and maybe somewhat more grainy than T-Max RS but
not too much so. It is certainly a very reliable developer.
   It seems to me that Ilfosol-S has had problems similar
to those reported for Xtol of suddenly failing. Not quite
sure of this.
   As far as stand development goes, I've tried it but
never had much luck. Its been touted on and off for many
decades. When it works it appears to provide a good
compensating effect for scenes with excessive contrast,
especially highlight contrast, but I think its difficult to
control. I also think it works best with the negatives flat
to avoid the convection streaking that can occur of the
reaction products can flow along a vertical surface. Now,
there are some, like one of the posters in this thread, who
report perfect results with the film held vertically. I
can't explain this but if it works it works.
   I don't think there is a perfect developer. I mostly use
D-76, usually diluted 1:1, however, I also use Rodinal for
tray and drum development of some sheet films and have gone
back to using Perceptol for 35mm T-Max 100 (Microdol-X is
about identical) because the combination yields extremely
fine grain but with usable speed and easily controlled
contrast. The grain of the combination is nearly as fine as
the late, lamented Technical Pan.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

UC - 27 Jul 2007 14:50 GMT
> > Richard,
>
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
> Los Angeles, CA, USA
> dickb...@ix.netcom.com

Stand development was used with glass plates, placed perfectly
horozontally in the solution. It is not an approach I would use with
roll film, as the by-products of development tend to have greater
specific gravity than the developer itself, and cascade down the
film's surface, causing streaking. This may not always be obvious,
however, depending on subject matter and other factors, but I would
not use this technique with roll film for the reason outlined above.

Minimal agitation accomplished much the same thing. I agitate once per
minute, with two gentle inversions accompanied by rotation.
 
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