Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / August 2007
Stand development - Uneven
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Peter Chant - 16 Jul 2007 13:12 GMT Ok chaps,
it is not my week. Tried stand development. FP4+ exposed at 125. Rodinal 1:150 for 1 hour, no agitation. Patterson tank and reals. 600ml dev (500ml needed to cover spool). Could be just a fluke as I normally don't have problems but:
http://www.petezilla.co.uk/gallery/Oddments
All bar the butterfly. Seemed to effect the end of the film worst as some other shots seem fine:
http://www.petezilla.co.uk/gallery/july-2007
I think is plain bad luck.
Interestingly, on the darker part of the house a clear 'unsharp mask' effect can be seen in the sky next to the building.
Thoughts - again!
I'll look out a stainless steel tank and spools I think just to see what happens!
Pete
 Signature http://www.petezilla.co.uk
jj - 16 Jul 2007 14:43 GMT > Ok chaps, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > problems but: > [...] Stand development with Rodinal 1:150 is appropriate for relatively high-contrast scenes (or N-2,N-1).
> I'll look out a stainless steel tank and spools I think just to see what > happens! Yes, do that. Seriously, Patterson reels are just terrible.
UC - 25 Jul 2007 14:26 GMT > > Ok chaps, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Yes, do that. Seriously, Patterson reels are just terrible. It's 'Paterson', dumbass, and thay are wonderful.
Bogdan Karasek - 26 Jul 2007 04:19 GMT Hi,
I'm curious as to why there is this negative prejudice towards Paterson plastic reels. I've been using them for 10 years, about 10-15 reels a week on average, and except for a half dozen times where I've had problems (my fault, reels weren't completely dry), the rest of the time, it's been smooth sailing. I use them for 127, 35mm and 120 film.
Why are stainless steel reels considered superior?
A curious mind wants to know!
Cheers, Bogdan
>>Yes, do that. Seriously, Patterson reels are just terrible. > > It's 'Paterson', dumbass, and thay are wonderful.
 Signature ________________________________________________________________ Bogdan Karasek Montréal, Québec bogdan at bogdanphoto.com Canada www.bogdanphoto.com
"I photograph my reality" ________________________________________________________________
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 26 Jul 2007 06:34 GMT > I'm curious as to why there is this negative prejudice towards Paterson > plastic reels. I've been using them for 10 years, about 10-15 reels a > week on average, and except for a half dozen times where I've had > problems (my fault, reels weren't completely dry), the rest of the > time, it's been smooth sailing. I use them for 127, 35mm and 120 film. In the 1980's for about two years Paterson made reels with a teflon coating. They are a light pink color instead of the usual white. They were IMHO the best reels Paterson made.
> Why are stainless steel reels considered superior? Some people have much better luck loading film onto them. It's more a matter of what you like and are used to. I bought a whole bunch of used darkroom stuff about 4 years ago and most of it was stainless steel tanks and reels. I kept one set in the best condition just because I thought I should and gave the rest to someone else.
I'm happy because I don't have to use them, he's happy because he can.
Geoff.
 Signature Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Peter Chant - 26 Jul 2007 19:18 GMT > In the 1980's for about two years Paterson made reels with a teflon > coating. They are a light pink color instead of the usual white. > They were IMHO the best reels Paterson made. I spray mine with furniture polish occasionally if sticking is a problem, that seems to work and I've not noticed anything untoward, though YMMV.
 Signature http://www.petezilla.co.uk
Pieter - 26 Jul 2007 12:04 GMT I duuno. I like Paterson reels except that they take a bit of time to dry out after use. Not letting them dry causes the next film loaded to swell and stick. Stainless can be dried quicker since the loading is not dependent on the film working its way down a tight fitting slot.
What really bugs me though, is the leaky covers on Paterson tanks. I have new tanks in all sizes, and they all leak right out of the box. It takes some determination to get the caps on just right to keep from being drowned in photochemicals while agitating.
> Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >> It's 'Paterson', dumbass, and thay are wonderful. Nicholas O. Lindan - 26 Jul 2007 14:19 GMT > Why are stainless steel reels considered superior? "Oh! let us never, never doubt What nobody is sure about."
Hilaire Belloc
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com
Rod Smith - 26 Jul 2007 23:07 GMT > I'm curious as to why there is this negative prejudice towards Paterson > plastic reels. I've been using them for 10 years, about 10-15 reels a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Why are stainless steel reels considered superior? I don't think there's a really widespread "prejudice" against Paterson reels or tanks; if there were, they'd have long since disappeared from the market. There ARE, however, people with preferences for one type of tank or reel, and many of these people are quite willing to voice their opinions.
As somebody who prefers stainless steel reels (at least, Hewes stainless steel reels) over Paterson plastic reels, I'll say this: I frequently (probably 25% of the time) have problems loading plastic reels. The film tends to bind up, becoming difficult -- and eventually impossible -- to load further onto the reel. This is an extremely frustrating experience, and on a couple of occasions I ended up cutting the film and loading the final 1/3 of a roll or so onto a second spool. This of course ruined one frame (cut down the middle) and required twice as much chemistry to develop. This problem is not because the reels are wet -- they've always had over a day in which to air dry, and usually multiple days. I *SUSPECT* (but do not know for sure) that the problem is moisture in the air -- at the time I made the change to SS, I was loading my reels in a bathroom which wasn't air conditioned, so the humidity was probably rather high. If I'm correct, the problem would most likely not occur to people who can load their film in air-conditioned rooms or in dry climates; but for those without that luxury, the problem is a very serious one.
By contrast, my Hewes SS reels load very easily. I had no problem learning to load them (contrary to the claims of their being difficult to learn to load) -- but I also began using them after dealing with plastic reels for a while, so maybe that experience helped me. Because of the way the SS reels are loaded, binding because of moisture simply isn't an issue.
That said, I also have some cheap used no-name SS reels, and they're a nightmare to load. I usually end up cross-threading them, which ruins multiple frames. I don't use them any more, except as spacers when I want to develop a single roll of film in a two-reel tank.
As a bonus, SS tanks require less solution volume to cover the reels than do most plastic tanks. This saves a bit on chemical costs, although this is admittedly a minor factor. My SS tanks also leak a bit less than my AP-branded (Paterson clone) plastic tank.
None of this is to say that I think everybody should ditch their plastic tanks and start using SS tanks and reels. My own experiences might not match yours; you might not have the humidity problems that I suspect have caused me difficulty, or you might have other concerns or special needs, such as limited manual dexterity. If you're currently using plastic reels and tanks and have no complaints about them, then there's no point in spending money on new tanks and reels. If, OTOH, you *DO* have problems with your current equipment, you might want to consider changing to another type. The same comment applies to SS users, but in reverse -- if you can't seem to get the reels loaded or if you have other problems you think might be caused by the reel or tank type, it might make sense to try plastic reels and tanks.
 Signature Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking
jch - 28 Jul 2007 06:30 GMT >> I'm curious as to why there is this negative prejudice towards Paterson >> plastic reels. I've been using them for 10 years, about 10-15 reels a [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > load their film in air-conditioned rooms or in dry climates; but for those > without that luxury, the problem is a very serious one. _____ I agree with Rod about the difficulties loading film onto Paterson style spools when the humidity is high. I have suffered the consequences too. I found a solution. Simply preheat the reels to, say, 120F-150F with a small electric hair drier or in a heated film drying cabinet (i have a home built one) for a minute or so. Don't make the reel too hot or it may deform. This way all atmospheric moisture will be absent and stay away while the film is threaded in.
 Signature Regards / JCH
Toni Nikkanen - 28 Jul 2007 11:36 GMT I have an unrelated question about Paterson reels :) I only have one reel, that can be adjusted for different film widths, I use 135 and 120 film. The adjustment procedure is, in my opinion, somewhat "violent" and I'm always afraid that one of these days the reel will break. Is this a real concern and should I buy another reel so I don't need to adjust them anymore? (...and then a third one, so I can develop two 135 rolls at the same time...)
Ron Todd - 28 Jul 2007 18:40 GMT >I have an unrelated question about Paterson reels :) I only have one >reel, that can be adjusted for different film widths, I use 135 and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >need to adjust them anymore? (...and then a third one, so I can develop >two 135 rolls at the same time...) Sounds reasonable. I was always told to always put two 35mm reel in when using 120 tank, the one with the film on it on the bottom. (Long time ago, forgot the reason.)
David Nebenzahl - 28 Jul 2007 18:57 GMT On 7/28/2007 10:40 AM Ron Todd spake thus:
>>I have an unrelated question about Paterson reels :) I only have one >>reel, that can be adjusted for different film widths, I use 135 and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > when using 120 tank, the one with the film on it on the bottom. (Long > time ago, forgot the reason.) That's so that a single reel doesn't travel up and down in the tank when inverting it, causing excessive agitation.
Regarding adjusting the reels, it's just a matter of not pulling the reels apart (or pushing them together) except in the right position, which you can feel by rotating them against each other until you feel the "detent" position where they can be easily adjusted.
Rod Smith - 29 Jul 2007 19:27 GMT > On 7/28/2007 10:40 AM Ron Todd spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That's so that a single reel doesn't travel up and down in the tank when > inverting it, causing excessive agitation. The reason you cite makes some sense for SS reels and tanks; however, most plastic reels and tanks place the reel on a central spindle with enough friction to prevent much movement. The same advice applies to the plastic reels and tanks, though, because the reels can slowly "climb" the central spindle. (They don't move much on each agitation, but over the course of a whole development cycle, they can, at least if the fit is a bit loose.) If the reel "climbs" the spindle, and if you don't completely fill the tank, the reel will end up only partially submerged in your solutions, resulting in uneven development. This is likely to be worse than excessive agitation.
Of course, if the reels become VERY loose on the spindles, they might slide up and down substantially on each agitation, as you suggest, but the standard Paterson and AP reels I've seen aren't like this. Perhaps they could loosen to that point over years of use, though.
 Signature Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking
jch - 28 Jul 2007 19:19 GMT > I have an unrelated question about Paterson reels :) I only have one > reel, that can be adjusted for different film widths, I use 135 and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > need to adjust them anymore? (...and then a third one, so I can develop > two 135 rolls at the same time...) _____ True. Adjustment of movable side is a bit tight on most of my Paterson reels, but for a good reason. You don't want them to slide open during processing. I would just buy a few more reels like you said. They are not expensive. I do indeed tend to leave the reels at the 135 and 120 size and use them for that particular film.
 Signature Regards / JCH
George Mastellone - 29 Jul 2007 18:13 GMT > I have an unrelated question about Paterson reels :) I only have one > reel, that can be adjusted for different film widths, I use 135 and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > need to adjust them anymore? (...and then a third one, so I can develop > two 135 rolls at the same time...) Not sure if anyone has brought this up, but I know Jobo (they have one type of reel that is basically the same as the Paterson design)makes a point that wetting agents should not be used with the film on the reel since traces are almost impossible to wash off. Although the caveat was specifically for E-6 final rinse, I wouldn't be surprised if other wetting agent residues might cause sticking of the films and/or of the "film size" adjustment. I avoid the problem by using the plastic reels for the occasional 120 roll and their stainless reels for 35mm and don't worry about Jobo's warning!
Jean-David Beyer - 29 Jul 2007 21:07 GMT >> I have an unrelated question about Paterson reels :) I only have one >> reel, that can be adjusted for different film widths, I use 135 and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > for the occasional 120 roll and their stainless reels for 35mm and don't > worry about Jobo's warning! I have heard this for years, but do not believe it. I use wetting agent in the tanks on the reels all the time. The wetting agent is water soluble and starts as a liquid anyway. I wash the reels and tanks with hot water very soon after using them and have never had any trouble.
As I recall, Dr. Henry had problems with uneven development of 120 size film on reels and someone suggested the "photoflo problem" to him. He took extreme measures to remove any trace of wetting agent and it made no difference at all.
I think this is just an old wive's tale.
 Signature .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 16:05:01 up 6 days, 8:49, 2 users, load average: 4.19, 4.16, 4.11
UC - 29 Jul 2007 22:38 GMT > >> I have an unrelated question about Paterson reels :) I only have one > >> reel, that can be adjusted for different film widths, I use 135 and [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > I think this is just an old wive's tale. Indeed it is.
jjs - 31 Jul 2007 02:06 GMT This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter newbie crap. Case closed.
David Nebenzahl - 31 Jul 2007 05:07 GMT On 7/30/2007 6:06 PM jjs spake thus:
> This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter > newbie crap. Case closed. Someone hasn't taken their Geritol today.
Bogdan Karasek - 31 Jul 2007 17:49 GMT Hi,
Maybe the thread has become overextended but to use language like "utter
> newbie crap" tells us that you don't know what you are talking about; many people have reported utter satisfaction with Paterson plastic reels; others prefer stainless steel reels. So what? To each his own; what works for you is what you stick with.
You also seem to suffer from a limited vocabulary.
regards, Bogdan
> This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter > newbie crap. Case closed.
 Signature ________________________________________________________________ Bogdan Karasek Montréal, Québec bogdan at bogdanphoto.com Canada www.bogdanphoto.com
"I photograph my reality" ________________________________________________________________
UC - 05 Aug 2007 22:12 GMT > This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter > newbie crap. Case closed. I have used mine for 35 years, and absolutely love them. f.ck off, moron.
pico - 05 Aug 2007 23:20 GMT >> This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter >> newbie crap. Case closed. > > I have used mine for 35 years, and absolutely love them. f.ck off, > moron. Show us some of your pictures made in the past five years.
UC - 06 Aug 2007 17:24 GMT > >> This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter > >> newbie crap. Case closed. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Show us some of your pictures made in the past five years. Why? I have made thousands of negatives in the past five years. I don't give a sh.t what you think.
pico - 07 Aug 2007 02:57 GMT >>>> This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter >>>> newbie crap. Case closed. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Why? I have made thousands of negatives in the past five years. I > don't give a sh.t what you think. TRANSLATION: I haven't done sh.t for thirty years.
If you had anything, you would show it.
Loser.
UC - 07 Aug 2007 15:52 GMT > >>>> This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter > >>>> newbie crap. Case closed. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Loser. I don't care about photographic exhibition, moron.
David Nebenzahl - 07 Aug 2007 16:52 GMT On 8/7/2007 7:52 AM UC spake thus:
>> >>>> This thread otta be closed. Look, the walk-on Patterson reels are utter >> >>>> newbie crap. Case closed. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I don't care about photographic exhibition, moron. Yes, and I think we all know why.
UC - 24 Jul 2007 20:39 GMT > Ok chaps, > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > --http://www.petezilla.co.uk Who told you not to agitate? Who told you to use Rodinal?
I use Paterson tanks and get EXCELLENT results.
Dumbass....
jjs - 25 Jul 2007 01:06 GMT > Who told you not to agitate? Who told you to use Rodinal? > > I use Paterson tanks and get EXCELLENT results. Hah! That's from a guy who hasn't taken a picture in thirty-five years and when he did, it had uneven development.
Richard Knoppow - 24 Jul 2007 23:20 GMT > Ok chaps, > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Pete I've never been much of a fan of stand or stagnant development. The idea is that the reaction products of development are allowed to become concentrated in the vicinity of the image. The idea is that this will restrain the image development in proportion to its density. Also, since there is a concentration of reaction products at the border of a high and low density area the reaction products tend to restrain development in the low density region just adjacent to the high density one while relatively fresh developer diffusing into the emulsion from the low density region tends to accelerate development on the high density side. The effect is to strongly exagerate "acutance" or the conrast of the low to high density areas in a very narrow line surrounding the border. The width of the line being controlled mostly by the rate of diffusion in the emulsion. This assumes the reaction products of the developer are restrainers and not accelerators of development. This is true for Rodinal but may not be for many Metol-Hydroquinone developers. The assumption that the reaction products of development stay in a small area concentrated around the development centers is not always true. If the film or plate is exactly horizontal the effect can work pretty well. However, when film is vertical, as it usually is in a tank, the slight variation in density of the reaction products can cause some movement of the heavier materials before they can diffuse out into the body of the developer. This can cause directional streaking below high density areas due to the flow of restraining chemicals there. There is still some flow when the film is flat but it tends to move radially along the surface. There is also an effect known as "port-holing" due to the relative concentration of reaction products near the center of large high density areas. This results in lower density there. While stagnant development is supposed to result in high acutance and a "compensating" effect, that is, the production of a shoulder or lower contrast for highlights, it often just produces very non-uniform negatives. While many claim to get good negatives from this method and tout it, I am very sceptacle. In photographic areas requiring very uniform results, like sensitometry and motion picture photography, heroic efforts are made to insure uniform and vigorous agitation. The two often don't go together: for instance, the sprocket holes of 35mm film and the spaces between the film windings on a reel can cause exagerated turbulance in their immediate vicinity causing increased development there. This sort of uneveness is quite common and is familiar to those who process roll and 35mm in tanks. The answer is not to over agitate. In general the recommendation to invert an invertible tank about once a second for either 5 seconds every 30 seconds (Kodak recommendation) or for 10 seconds once a minute (Ilford recommendation) will result in reasonably uniform development although one can still find some non-uniformity. More uniform development requires constant agitation using some special techniques such as the spray systems used for motion picture development or brush development, sometimes used for sensitometric work. Another method of improving uniformity is the use of bursts of gas bubbles in sheet film tanks. All these efforts would not be necessary if stagnant development was satisfactory in general applicaton. Its not. Its a special technique essentially for a special effect. IMO it should be avoided if one want's consistently good negatives.
Rodinal is an OK developer which works for nearly any film (and is also a good albeit expensive paper developer at about 1:30). However, Rodinal is probably not the optimum developer for any film due to its tendency toward graininess. This is less so with some modern films like T-Max, which have hard enough emulsions to resist the tendency of developed grains to migrate and clump, a result of high pH in the developer. Also, grain is not so important in large-format negatives. Where the grain can be tollerated Rodinal is a convenient all-purpose developer with good tone rendition.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
jjs - 25 Jul 2007 01:08 GMT > I've never been much of a fan of stand or stagnant > development. With respect, Sir Richard, have you tried it? Can you show anything you have done with stand development that was unacceptable?
David Nebenzahl - 25 Jul 2007 01:17 GMT On 7/24/2007 5:08 PM jjs spake thus:<br>
>> I've never been much of a fan of stand or stagnant >> development. > > With respect, Sir Richard, have you tried it? Can you show anything you > have done with stand development that was unacceptable? Well, even if Richard never personally tried stand development, I'd trust what he has to say on the subject simply based on his encyclopedic knowledge of the subject and familiarity with tons of source material.
jjs - 25 Jul 2007 01:33 GMT > On 7/24/2007 5:08 PM jjs spake thus:<br> >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > trust what he has to say on the subject simply based on his encyclopedic > knowledge of the subject and familiarity with tons of source material. Richard knows I'm a serious fan of his. Your little appeal is pathetic.
My post was intended to bring out just the post you just wrote. I rather doubt Sir Richard would write about something he has not tried often. Your posit is full of sh.t. An appeal to authority, ("even if Richard ... tried it") is utter bullshit.
The PROOF is in practice.
I use stand development when I want N-1 with Agfa 100 B&W. Woe be the day I run out of it. Seriously. Maybe then my world will collapse, but I stand by it. It works very, very well.
Tech: two rolls of 120 Agfa 100 in a two-roll tank, stainless steel reels in a stainless Nikkor tank. Rodinal 1:200 at whatever room temperature for 60 minutes (40 works, too). No streaks. No problems. I'll look for some examples and put 'em up if you are in dire need of reality.
David Nebenzahl - 25 Jul 2007 05:32 GMT On 7/24/2007 5:33 PM jjs spake thus:<br>
>> On 7/24/2007 5:08 PM jjs spake thus:<br> >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > I'll look for some examples and put 'em up if you are in dire need of > reality. Well, f.ck you too, JJS.
Just because it worked for you (and I'll take your word for that) doesn't mean that there are snares and pitfalls there for the unwary.
brownt@flash.net - 31 Jul 2007 18:42 GMT > On 7/24/2007 5:33 PM jjs spake thus:<br> > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Just because it worked for you (and I'll take your word for that) > doesn't mean that there are snares and pitfalls there for the unwary. David,
It's best to ignore noise sources like jjs. Life's too short.
TB
jjs - 01 Aug 2007 03:08 GMT >> Well, f.ck you too, JJS. >> >> Just because it worked for you (and I'll take your word for that) >> doesn't mean that there are snares and pitfalls there for the unwary. I've no idea where you are coming from. The approach is fairly straightforward. Lighten up. It was a constructive post.
> It's best to ignore noise sources like jjs. Life's too short. No problem. Ignore what you wish. I have been at it for over forty years with many good images out there in the world.
So, it's more like f*ck-you for being unnecessarily defensive.
David Nebenzahl - 01 Aug 2007 05:21 GMT On 7/31/2007 10:42 AM brownt@flash.net spake thus:
>> On 7/24/2007 5:33 PM jjs spake thus:<br> >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > It's best to ignore noise sources like jjs. Life's too short. Well, ackshooly, jjs is more than just a "noise source". Don't know how long you've been around here (r.p.darkroom and other photo groups), but he has posted some truly fascinating stuff in the past, especially regarding his camera-hacking experiments.
He just needs his Geritol, that's all.
jjs - 01 Aug 2007 13:40 GMT >> It's best to ignore noise sources like jjs. Life's too short. > > Well, ackshooly, jjs is more than just a "noise source". Don't know how > long you've been around here (r.p.darkroom and other photo groups), but > he has posted some truly fascinating stuff in the past, especially > regarding his camera-hacking experiments. I know of Richard's contributions very well and I appreciate his work. He and I have corresponded, although I may have used my full name rather than initials. I have been 'around here' forever, too.
That you think I differ in opinion and experience with stand development is one thing; to cast aspersions is another. Let Richard speak for himself. He does it quite well.
otzi - 03 Aug 2007 00:15 GMT >>> It's best to ignore noise sources like jjs. Life's too short. >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > is one thing; to cast aspersions is another. Let Richard speak for > himself. He does it quite well. Oh dear, dear, dear. We already have one senior citizen who seems to access the more basic language in favour polite intercourse. I won't mention his name for obvious reasons but goes under the initials of "uranium committee", what ever that means. Now we have an other 55-60? gentleman who finds the more basic language of the youth and uninformed more accessible that a more dignified prose. Maybe it's long term chemical use in dark spaces.
 Signature Otzi
Peter Chant - 26 Jul 2007 19:16 GMT Richard,
thanks for your long reply. I don't think there is much I can respond to as I do only a little processing on an amateur basis. I thought I would give it a go as I usually process using Rodinal.
> The effect is to strongly exagerate "acutance" or the > conrast of the low to high density areas in a very narrow > line surrounding the border. The width of the line being > controlled mostly by the rate of diffusion in the emulsion. Noticeable, and not good in the following:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/peter.chant/gallery/Oddments/crop0002.jpg
Look at the edge near the right-hand tower.
I suspect, from this neg and what you have said, that you need to be careful to see whether the subject suits this technique.
> However, when > film is vertical, as it usually is in a tank, the slight [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > products near the center of large high density areas. This > results in lower density there. Not aware of that, thanks. Not quite what I saw but there must have been some odd concentration gradient around part of my reel.
> All these efforts would not be necessary if stagnant > development was satisfactory in general applicaton. Its not. > Its a special technique essentially for a special effect. > IMO it should be avoided if one want's consistently good > negatives. I could see the time factor being important for commercial or other practical reasons.
> Rodinal is an OK developer which works for nearly any > film (and is also a good albeit expensive paper developer at [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Rodinal is a convenient all-purpose developer with good tone > rendition. I mainly use Rodinal as it is convenient to me. The amount of processing I do is irregular. I've lost too many part full bottles of Ilfosol-S. I did use ID-11 for quite a while which seems to be a good all round bet. Rodinal seems very easy to use for me, once I get use to making the more dilute solutions. Lately I've been going down the MF route for B&W, so I suppose grain size is not too much of an issue. Do know that Delta 3200 and Rodinal for me is not a good combination. To be frank, at the stage I am at the relative merits of playing with various developers probably does not matter too much, provided I get even development and a scannable result.
I know the scanning comment is heresy to some here, but although I have enough basic kit that I ought to be able to make decent prints I just have not developed the craft skills that allow me to do so. I make better prints digitally.
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Richard Knoppow - 27 Jul 2007 00:32 GMT > Richard, > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > make better > prints digitally. I've mostly used Rodinal for sheet film usually at around 1:50 to get the time long enough for even development. For sheets grain is not an issue and the tone rendition is good. Rodinal works opposite to high sulfite developers like D-76 in that it becomes finer grain as it is diluted. In comparison its certainly grainier than D-76/ID-11 and maybe somewhat more grainy than T-Max RS but not too much so. It is certainly a very reliable developer. It seems to me that Ilfosol-S has had problems similar to those reported for Xtol of suddenly failing. Not quite sure of this. As far as stand development goes, I've tried it but never had much luck. Its been touted on and off for many decades. When it works it appears to provide a good compensating effect for scenes with excessive contrast, especially highlight contrast, but I think its difficult to control. I also think it works best with the negatives flat to avoid the convection streaking that can occur of the reaction products can flow along a vertical surface. Now, there are some, like one of the posters in this thread, who report perfect results with the film held vertically. I can't explain this but if it works it works. I don't think there is a perfect developer. I mostly use D-76, usually diluted 1:1, however, I also use Rodinal for tray and drum development of some sheet films and have gone back to using Perceptol for 35mm T-Max 100 (Microdol-X is about identical) because the combination yields extremely fine grain but with usable speed and easily controlled contrast. The grain of the combination is nearly as fine as the late, lamented Technical Pan.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
UC - 27 Jul 2007 14:50 GMT > > Richard, > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > Los Angeles, CA, USA > dickb...@ix.netcom.com Stand development was used with glass plates, placed perfectly horozontally in the solution. It is not an approach I would use with roll film, as the by-products of development tend to have greater specific gravity than the developer itself, and cascade down the film's surface, causing streaking. This may not always be obvious, however, depending on subject matter and other factors, but I would not use this technique with roll film for the reason outlined above.
Minimal agitation accomplished much the same thing. I agitate once per minute, with two gentle inversions accompanied by rotation.
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