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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / July 2007

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T-Max 3200

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carbon based life form - 03 Jul 2007 07:15 GMT
Anyone have any experience with HC 110 to reduce grain size in P3200?
Or any other developers (other than T-Max & D-76...which are not really
fine enough for my tastes..).

TIA
sam
Nicholas O. Lindan - 03 Jul 2007 14:54 GMT
> Anyone have any experience with HC 110 to reduce grain size in P3200? Or
> any other developers (other than T-Max & D-76...which are not really fine
> enough for my tastes..).

Surely you jest - HC-110 will increase grain size.  Gives a mushy
oatmeal-like grain to my mind when used with 35mm.

You could try Microdol-X 1:1.  After that it would be mix-your-own
and experimenting with odd formulae - an activity that will take
up much time and yield little result.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

pico - 03 Jul 2007 15:06 GMT
>> Anyone have any experience with HC 110 to reduce grain size in P3200? Or
>> any other developers (other than T-Max & D-76...which are not really fine
>> enough for my tastes..).
>
> Surely you jest - HC-110 will increase grain size.  Gives a mushy
> oatmeal-like grain to my mind when used with 35mm.

Really? This was done with HC-110B
http://www.digoliardi.net/images/dawn.jpg

Pretty sharp grain. Looks much better in the actual print.

Grain is my friend.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 03 Jul 2007 15:24 GMT
> Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
> > HC-110 will increase grain size.  Gives a mushy
> > oatmeal-like grain to my mind when used with 35mm.

> Really? This was done with HC-110B
> http://www.digoliardi.net/images/dawn.jpg
> Pretty sharp grain.

One man's sharp is another man's oats.

Gustibus non est disputatum.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

Lloyd Erlick - 03 Jul 2007 16:17 GMT
>activity that will take
>up much time and yield little result.

July 3, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

Hey, take it easy, that's my life you're
describing!

regards,
--le
Lloyd Erlick - 03 Jul 2007 16:15 GMT
>Anyone have any experience with HC 110 to reduce grain size in P3200?
>Or any other developers (other than T-Max & D-76...which are not really
>fine enough for my tastes..).
>
>TIA
>sam

July 3, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

I love TMZ, although I don't use it much. I
actually like it's grain pattern, somehow. I
think I'm influenced by my portraitist's love
of shadow detail, and TMZ really has the
ability to look into the shadows. I hate the
look of pushed film  (well, prints made from
pushed film...), and I consider it quite a
stretch to call TMZ an EI 3200 film, or even
1600. I prefer to set my meter to 800 for
this film. And even at that "low" rating, it
is far faster than the 200 I set for Tri-X
and TMY (Kodak T-Max 400).

I develop TMZ in Xtol. This film will never
be 'small grain', but it seems OK to me when
exposed at its real speed (which I would say
is 800 or even 640) and developed in Xtol.
I've used the development parameters
specified by Kodak for undiluted Xtol, but I
think experimenting with the various
dilutions of this developer would be useful,
too.

Just to repeat myself, I think the most
important factor is the EI at which TMZ is
exposed. Developer choice is second, and I do
not think D-76 would be a bad choice, either.
To me, the fact that you are not satisfied
with results from D-76 indicates you are
using the film at an inappropriate EI,
probably too high.

As an experiment, expose part of a roll at
the EI you've been using. Expose part of the
same roll at EI 800, develop as usual in the
developer you like best so far, and compare.
My guess is you will prefer prints made from
the denser negs (i.e., the ones made at the
lower EI).

It's possible the negs will be quite dense,
because in effect they are being over-exposed
and developed as if they were under-exposed.
However, I doubt they will be unprintable. In
fact, I think the final prints from them will
be better than the usual prints made from
this film at higher EI. The dense negs will
demand longer enlarger exposures, and maybe a
bit of a shift in technique  (reduction in
contrast set on the enlarger, most likely),
but I'm willing to bet they will be very good
prints in the end. The knowledge gained from
this experiment will tell you how to adjust
development so it's more appropriate to the
exposure.

Sorry if I'm puncturing balloons; I just like
TMZ at lower EI, and I think the high EI
recommendations from the manufacturer are
actually meant for specialized applications
like surveillance work where considerations
like shadow detail or grain are not relevant.

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
________________________________
--
David Kazdan - 03 Jul 2007 22:44 GMT
Somewhat like he says.  Kodak lists TMZ as an EI 800 film, 3200 is a
two-stop push.  I like it in HC110 at 800, but the TMax developers are
my favorite for pushing.  My personal preference is for sharp grain, so
I don't like the solvent developers such as Microdol-X.

          David

>> Anyone have any experience with HC 110 to reduce grain size in P3200?
>> Or any other developers (other than T-Max & D-76...which are not really
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
> email: portrait@heylloyd.com
> ________________________________
Dana Myers - 03 Jul 2007 17:43 GMT
> Anyone have any experience with HC 110 to reduce grain size in P3200? Or
> any other developers (other than T-Max & D-76...which are not really
> fine enough for my tastes..).

I wouldn't soup TMZ (T-Max P3200) in HC-110.  In fact, I wouldn't
soup any T-Max in HC-110.

While I do not have extensive experience with TMZ and different
developers, I have had good (to my eye) results with Xtol.  I'd
normally process in Xtol diluted 1+1, but you might try full-strength.

Dana
carbon based life form - 04 Jul 2007 23:52 GMT
> Anyone have any experience with HC 110 to reduce grain size in P3200?
> Or any other developers (other than T-Max & D-76...which are not really
> fine enough for my tastes..).
>
> TIA
> sam

I would like to thank you all who have taken the time to reply.....from
what I am gleaning I think that my "problem" with 3200 is that I am
shooting at 3200. so be it. I shoot in the streets at night and
somewhat hesitant about giving away the extra stop. After revisiting
some of my negs I realise that in the blacks of the prints (clear on
the neg) I am getting a "scolloping" effect which may not actually be
grain per se. It seems to come and go between batches of film......more
investigation required. anyway thanks again all. cheers!
sam
Richard Knoppow - 05 Jul 2007 00:19 GMT
>> Anyone have any experience with HC 110 to reduce grain
>> size in P3200? Or any other developers (other than T-Max
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> anyway thanks again all. cheers!
> sam

  I don't know what the scalloped effect is. I've seen
something like it on very old film that was probably subject
to excessive moisture during storage. This is probably
something else.
  Kodak does not recommend HC-110 for pushing and its
probably not an optimum developer for TMX 3200. Push
developers include Kodak T-Max and T-Max RS, Xtol, and
Ilford Microphen. Of these Xtol will give the best
combination of speed and fine grain. T-Max 3200 is probaby
pretty fine grain for its speed but faster films will always
be grainier than slower ones and pushing will always
increase grain.
  Films like T-Max 3200 and Ilford's equivalent test at
about EI-800 to 1000 when tested using the ISO method for
B&W still films. The capability of less exposure than given
by this is a property of the curve shape and low fog of
these films. There really isn't such a thing as "true"
speed, only the speed given by a particular test method. The
ISO standard makes assumptions about the way film will be
used and printed that may not be valid for film like these.
  "Pushing" any film is really developing for increased
contrast. The low exposure part of the film curve, called
the toe, always has a  lower contrast than the "straight
line" portion of the curve normally used. Pushing increases
this part of the curve making low exposures have greater
tone separation. However, it also increases overall contrast
so pictures taken where there is a relatively large
variation in lighting can become very contrasty in highlight
areas that are exposed above the toe. There is no cure for
this, its something that must be dealt with in printing.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

carbon based life form - 05 Jul 2007 01:28 GMT
>>> Anyone have any experience with HC 110 to reduce grain size in P3200?
>>> Or any other developers (other than T-Max & D-76...which are not really
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> exposed above the toe. There is no cure for this, its something that
> must be dealt with in printing.

Thanks for the ideas Richard...having re-examined my film I notice that
what I am objecting to is in fact the film base....the "noise", if you
will, is evident in between the sproket holes; not that I print the
sproket holes, but rather in the clear areas of my negs (the blacks in
the print) the actual film itself is giving me a "grainy" look. This is
the same stuff that I see along the edges of the film where there
should be no silver left. Ah well.
Richard Knoppow - 05 Jul 2007 07:52 GMT
>>>> Anyone have any experience with HC 110 to reduce grain
>>>> size in P3200? Or any other developers (other than
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> look. This is the same stuff that I see along the edges of
> the film where there should be no silver left. Ah well.

   The sprocket hole effect is a well known one for 35mm
film. Its there because there is increased turbulance around
the holes which in turn causes increased development there.
The effect used to plague the motion picture industry
because it caused a 96hz hum in the sound tracks due to the
proximity of the sprocket holes. One can still sometimes
hear this in old movies.
   I don't know a good cure for it, it seems to happen with
both twirling and inversion agitation but can be minimized
by using inversion tanks which are well filled with
developer and don't allow the film reel to move around much.
Changing developer probably won't help much but longer
development times may help even it out. Probably push
processing exagerates the effect.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

carbon based life form - 05 Jul 2007 08:44 GMT
>>>>> Anyone have any experience with HC 110 to reduce grain size in P3200?
>>>>> Or any other developers (other than T-Max & D-76...which are not really
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> help much but longer development times may help even it out. Probably
> push processing exagerates the effect.

thanks for your insights mate I do appreciate it...I may try a
developer/dilution/temp combination based on a longer time.....oh and
yes it's more noticable on rolls developed singularly in a dual reel
tank, rather than when processing two at a time....cheers!
sam
Richard Knoppow - 05 Jul 2007 14:34 GMT
>>>>>> Anyone have any experience with HC 110 to reduce
>>>>>> grain size in P3200? Or any other developers (other
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
> processing two at a time....cheers!
> sam

   Do you put an empty reel in the double tank? If not the
turbulance caused by the single reel sliding around can
cause all sorts of problems. I suspect you are putting the
empty reel in.
   I will add that obtaining uniform development has been a
bug-a-boo in photography nearly from the beginning. All
sorts of methods have been tried for scientific photography,
emulsion research, speed testing, etc. Some are better than
others but I don't know of a perfect method.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Lloyd Erlick - 05 Jul 2007 13:22 GMT
>I think that my "problem" with 3200 is that I am
>shooting at 3200. so be it. I shoot in the streets at night and
>somewhat hesitant about giving away the extra stop.

July 5, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

Well, don't feel too bad. You can't really
give away what was never there. Nothing but
advertising hype.

regards,
--le
UC - 24 Jul 2007 20:50 GMT
> Anyone have any experience with HC 110 to reduce grain size in P3200?
> Or any other developers (other than T-Max & D-76...which are not really
> fine enough for my tastes..).
>
> TIA
> sam

Try Paterson FX-39. T-Max 3200 is a grainy film. To get the best
results, expose it at EI 800 and develop to print properly on grade 3
paper..
 
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