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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / June 2007one-shot fixer for paper
serched the net and posted questions on this groups, but i've not yet very clear on one of my questons: how do i mix and use one-shot none- acid none-hardener sodium thiosulfate fixer for print paper. 1, i want to use sodium thiosulfate only. is it okay? 2, and, for its capacity and usage, i want to know if my below thinkings are right: because i found an article on the net which said that per liter of Kodak acid hardening fixer can process 14,500 sq cm, that is 2274.5 in^2. i think, in one liter of such solution, there are 240 grams of sodium thiosulfate. so, i deduced that per gram of sodium thiosulfate can do 9.365 in^2. so, if i use 120 grams of sodium thiosulfate to make a 500ml solution, which should do 120*9.365 in^2, i.e. 14 sheets of 8x10 papers which is a reasonable amount of papers i ususally run in a single session. and, because 120grams in 500ml solution has same concentration compared to original Kodak F-5 formula, so i think i don't need to alter fixing time. how about this? and, because there is no acid in the fixer, can i still use acid stop bath without run in trouble? or, a step further, is it necessary to use the stop bath? thanks for any inputs. - woody > how about this? and, because there is no acid in the fixer, can i > still use acid stop bath without run in trouble? or, a step further, > is it necessary to use the stop bath? The purpose of a stop bath is to stop development. This prevents your prints from continuing to develop in the fixer. The same thing can be said (among other reasons) for acid in the fixer. Unless you are short of space or money, or out of it, using an acid stop bath makes a lot of sense. If you develop by inspection, it is critical. If you were to develop prints by inspection (looking at them) and then take them from the developer and put them in a non acid stop bath, then you would find they are darker. If you did not agitate properly, you would find they are not consistent, some areas stopped developing later than others. The same also applies for film. At one time regular RC papers had developing chemicals in them and absoultely need acid fixer or stop bath to remove any that were left. This is not the same as "rapid" paper which had the developer in it. I don't know if the current production papers have them in it or not, it may have gone out with the 1970's. Geoff.  SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ > and, because there is no acid in the fixer, can i >still use acid stop bath without run in trouble? or, a step further, >is it necessary to use the stop bath? June 20, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick, Since you've chosen to eliminate acid from the fix, now is the opportune time to delete acid from your darkroom and switch to a water stop. The benefits of non-acid FB paper and film processing are very attractive to me, because I find the various smells produced in the darkroom cease to be produced when acid is not present. I want darkroom air to be the same as in other rooms (living rooms, that is ...). Four changes of water in my print processing tray is what I use for a stop bath. Developer is fairly nearly completely soaked out, so stains do not result later (such as in the fix). I've written a lot of darkroom blather on this subject on my website. It's under the technical button on the table of contents. Using a darkroom regimen that a) eliminates the use of acid completely, b) uses single-tray processing and c) uses single-shot dilute fixing a la Dan Quinn, it's possible to make FB prints rigorously to very high standards in a very small space with very little paraphernalia such as multiple trays and storage jugs, and no smell. Even the use of sodium sulfite is reduced if straight sodium thiosulfate is used for fixer and discarded. The single-tray approach lets one change paper size at whim, too, so a 20x24 can follow an 8x10 if desired, with very little effort. regards, --le ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. website: www.heylloyd.com telephone: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com ________________________________ -- > On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:35:46 -0700, Steven > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > ________________________________ > -- many thanks, and i go to study your website. a question i want ask before that is, if i dont care about the smells of acid, does it do any harm using a acid stop bath? the reason why i think that is, even though many water bathes can stop the development completly as you described, the development may still not be immediately stopped, and since the fixer gets no acid, putting film/paper into an acid stop bath can save me from increasing of development. i am just not sure if it is okay to fix in a non-acid fixer immediately after an acid stop bath, should i rinse the film/paper before fixing and after treat them in stop batch? - woody June 20, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick, >the development may still not be immediately stopped, Well, immediately stopped, strictly defined, no, and it never is. Things take time. But it is awfully quickly diluted by the first slosh of water dumped over it. Since my usual development times are many minutes in full working strength developer, a few seconds in more-and-more diluted developer as water-stop is applied will not develop enough extra density to be visible. In any case, the 'extra' density, if it existed, would be included in one's assessment of the finished image, and probably rather consistently so. Some small extra density might even exist in the case of acid stop. even that process takes some small length of time. I think both cases are academic and insignificant to what we do in the darkroom. ... and >since the fixer gets no acid, putting film/paper into an acid stop >bath can save me from increasing of development. i am just not sure >if it is okay to fix in a non-acid fixer immediately after an acid >stop bath, should i rinse the film/paper before fixing and after treat >them in stop batch? It's bad policy to unceremoniously introduce acid into a sodium thiosulfate solution -- especially in the case of Dan Quinn's dilute one-shot fixer, which is basically straight sodium thiosulfate unchaperoned by sodium sulfite. A sudden hit of acid could precipitate a bit if sulfur or cause sulfur dioxide to come out. I hate that. So, if you use a non-acid fixer, but insist on an acid stop, it is best to rinse the acid off the material before putting it into the fix. I must say, I've tried all the variations. Fiber base paper materials are very sensitive to small variations in method. The acid in acid stop bath is impossible to rinse out completely, no matter how many rinses one applies (well, no matter what reasonable amount of time one wants to spend rinsing...). That is true of acetic acid and citric acid stop baths. Either one can lead to bad smell in the fixer no matter how well rinsed. It's just that a few rinses gets out so much acid that it's very rare to smell anything in the fix. However, the real effect of impossible-to-rinse-out acid is on the selenium toner bath. I keep mine long term, because it's expensive. If any acid gets in it, it turns dark and murky with some sort of black or dark brown precipitate. Eventually it stains prints, and I can't filter it completely. Anyway, I just hate the murk. I was surprised when the murky precipitate ceased when I stopped using an acid stop that I attempted to rinse off. I just rinsed the developer away as best I could, and my selenium toner bath stopped throwing the black precipitate. Mine is now several years old, and is close to water clear. All I have to do is filter it with a plain coffee filter as frequently as I can bear. Acid is unnecessary, and things are easier without it. In a normal, regular, "ordinary" black and white darkroom, such as mine and I bet lots of peoples', acid should be considered a material for specialized processes, not for regular ordinary day to day film and FB or RC print processing. regards, --le ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. website: www.heylloyd.com telephone: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com ________________________________ -- > June 20, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick, > [quoted text clipped - 97 lines] > ________________________________ > -- thanks Lloyd, i now decide to skeep the acid stop bath :-) and, i am interesting in, for your one-tray processing, how do you preven print papers from going out of the tray when you pour the solution out to the bottle beside without using your fingers. can you decribe it? a lot of thanks. - woody >for your one-tray processing, how do you preven print >papers from going out of the tray when you pour the solution out to >the bottle beside without using your fingers. can you decribe it? June 22, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick, I worried about that, too, before I tried it. When the paper is wet and touching the bottom of the tray as it empties, just try to get it loose. Wet paper sticks pretty good ... The only way to remove the wet sheet from the empty tray is to carefully lift one corner and peel the whole thing up gently and slowly. regards, --le ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. website: www.heylloyd.com telephone: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com ________________________________ -- > Acid is unnecessary, and things are easier > without it. In a normal, regular, "ordinary" [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > telephone: 416-686-0326 > email: portr...@heylloyd.com My prints and film go directly from the developer to the very dilute one-shot fix. Many years ago there was an acid fix and an acid fix was necessary. Kodak came up with the 10 second acid stop; between the alkaline developer and acid fix. The sole need of an acid stop is the following acid fix. The very short acid stop imparts to the film or paper a superficial acid character conditioning it for an acid fix. A neutral or alkaline fixer does not need preconditioned acidic paper or film. Use a water stop. I don't use a stop of any sort and wonder if a stop of any sort is needed when using other than an acid fix. Stories of possible stain from developer carried forward to the fix and dichroic fog are seen. How though is unexposed emulsion silver expected to be developed by that carry forward developer? Perhaps there is some truth to the cautions issued. For myself I bypass those issues with the use of a very dilute one-shot fix. I'm not stopping. Dan n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com <dan.c.quinn@att.net> > I don't use a stop of any sort ... Stories > of possible stain ... How [?]... > I ... use of a ... very dilute one-shot fix. I find fixer that has done a few prints can stain, fixer that is fresh never seems to stain. When going from fix straight to Se toner the fix must be _very_ fresh. Old fix or partially fixed paper [usually get both together] and the paper stains a light purple/brown. No stray silver allowed in the paper. It may be that with a 1-s fix that a stop bath is not needed? SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm > It may be that with a 1-s fix that a stop bath is > not needed? As I mentioned a long time ago in this thread, the main purposes of a stop batch is to stop development quickly, so that prints developed by inspection don't develop further and become darker than expected and to prevent developer contamination of the fixer. Anyone who spends the time to develop pritns by inspection can easily learn to compensate for the extra development in the fixer, if it's noticable at all, After all, we all learned to compensate for any changes in intensity and contrast due to the print drying. The second reason is totally unecessary if you are using one shot fixer, any developer in it goes down the drain and does not contaminate the stock solution or the next print/roll of film. You could just think of it as a two step monobath. :-) Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ > <dan.c.qu...@att.net> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I find fixer that has done a few prints can stain, fixer > that is fresh never seems to stain. Not that it is germane but from where are those stained prints comming? If directly from a usual strength developer to an alkaline fix I'd think the stain due to some interaction within the fixer and the built up carried forward developer. Beware of stained prints for lack of a proper stop. Now and then I read that caution but never the explanation. Developer build up in the fixer is not an issue with one-shot fixer. For that matter neither is silver build up an issue. In fact a print through the 1% S. thio. fix and the solution volume needed for processing a size print leaves extremely little silver on a volume basis. So little in fact that a second fix makes no sense. > When going from fix straight to Se toner the fix must > be _very_ fresh. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Nicholas O. Lindan I work with chemistry at more than the usual dilutions; developer and fixer. A Dektol equivalent would be 1:7 +/-; the S. thio. anhydrous, a 1:15 dilution of the usual 160 gram per liter formula. So I have an advantage; very little developer is carried forward into a very dilute comparatively voluminous fixer. A variation might be the more usual strength developer and a second tray for the one-shot fixer. Either way, one tray or two, developer, one-shot fixer, selenium toner. May work. Dan >> and, because there is no acid in the fixer, can i >>still use acid stop bath without run in trouble? or, a step further, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > technical button on the table of contents. > snip ________________________________ > Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. > website: www.heylloyd.com > telephone: 416-686-0326 > email: portrait@heylloyd.com > ________________________________ While I don't share Mr Erlick's dislike of acid/smells in the darkroom ("I love the smell of RA-4 in the morning... It's smells like... photography..." paraphrase from 'Apocalyse Now'), his website is filled to the rafters with many good ideas. After you've perused his articles, don't forget to check out his portraits. It's time well spent. > >> and, because there is no acid in the fixer, can i > >>still use acid stop bath without run in trouble? or, a step further, [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > many good ideas. After you've perused his articles, don't forget to check > out his portraits. It's time well spent. yes, i do like his portraits. i just can not image how can he pour solution out of his singal tray without using a finger to keep paper from coming out as well as solutions. can you understand? >yes, i do like his portraits. i just can not image how can he pour >solution out of his singal tray without using a finger to keep paper >from coming out as well as solutions. can you understand? June 22, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick, Try it with a scrap print and plain water. As long as any part of the paper contacts the 'dry' part of the tray bottom as it drains, it will stay in place. It's actually very difficult to get the paper to slop out while draining the tray. Sometimes a sheet will climb part way up one of the sides of the tray when I drain it. That means I've poured too fast and abruptly. It's easy to correct once the tray is full of fluid again. Just slosh it about gently and it will slide down. I've never creased or damaged one this way. regards, --le ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. website: www.heylloyd.com telephone: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com ________________________________ -- > yes, i do like his portraits. i just can not image how can he pour > solution out of his singal tray without using a finger to keep paper > from coming out as well as solutions. can you understand? Mr. Erlick is correct. The paper remains with the tray. I also process single tray. While he saves his chemistry I pour mine down the drain. My working strengths are very dilute and of minimal solution volume. Dan >While I don't share Mr Erlick's dislike of acid/smells in the darkroom ("I >love the smell of RA-4 in the morning... It's smells like... photography..." >paraphrase from 'Apocalyse Now'), his website is filled to the rafters with >many good ideas. After you've perused his articles, don't forget to check >out his portraits. It's time well spent. June 22, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick, Gosh, thanks, that's enough of a reason to get busy using up the quarter kilogram of Glycin I just overpaid for ... regards, --le > get busy using up the quarter kilogram of > Glycin I just overpaid for ... GAF-130 will use it up, though slowly at about 3gm/l of 1:3 working. I have been doing some printing with MGIV FB Warm Tone in GAF-130 [the straight formula with the hydroquinone] and selenium toning. Great combination ... very deep shadows, paper response doesn't even start to shoulder at 2.5OD. I have found warm-tone paper gives awful toning results with some developers. The worst I have found so far is Gevaert-262, a hydroquinone-only warm tone developer. I have put up some paper response curves for GAF-130 glycin/MQ developer and FBWT on the Darkroom Automation web site in the support section. http://www.darkroomautomation.com/support/index.htm Zone system and HD graphs are: http://www.darkroomautomation.com/support/mgivfbwta130se-zone.jpg http://www.darkroomautomation.com/support/mgivfbwta130se-hd.jpg The graphs cut-off at 2.5OD, after 2.3OD measurement is pretty iffy as a tiny small dust mote on the paper can drop the OD reading by 0.10. The paper speed graphs/charts/spread sheets are used with Darkroom Automation products. The Darkroom Automation system allows you to place any point in the image at any desired paper tone, determine paper grade, base exposure and dodge and burn exposures, automatically generate test prints, etc., etc.. http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation A Unit of Cleveland Engineering Design, LLC n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com > serched the net and posted questions on this groups, but i've not yet > very clear on one of my questons: how do i mix and use one-shot none- > acid none-hardener sodium thiosulfate fixer for print paper. Last night I mixed up a small batch of S. Thio. only fixer to use this evening. I weighed out 5.6 grams of S. Thio. anhydrous. That quantity is targeted to process four 5x7 test prints; one each of the four papers I've mentioned. That amount of S. Thio. was dissolved in an amount of distilled H2O sufficient to fill 2, 1 ounce Boston Round bottles. With the solution clear the bottles were filled and caped. When used each of the two bottles in turn will be brought to a solution volume of 280ml and that volume split twixt two cups each of which have been calibrated to hold 140ml. That 140 is the solution volume for each 5x7. It is the 1% S. Thio. strength fixer. Also evening last I did the same as above but added same amount of sodium carbonate mon-hydrate. Again 2, 1 ounce bottles. A series of carbonated tests of the four papers is also to be done. > 1, i want to use sodium thiosulfate only. is it okay? I suggest the proceedure I've detailed above. If you are ready to process then it may be practical to mix directly to final solution volume at start. Hold in as many cups as are intended prints. For example I'll be doing 2, 5x7s. If time permits I'll dilute a second bottle and do two more. The fixer go's into the tray only a very little expsoed to the atmosphere. > 2, and, for its capacity and usage, i want to know if my below > thinkings are right: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > thanks for any inputs. woody I'll post back on the remainder of your, this, post. Dan It's certainly possible to use a straight sodium thiosulfate fixer one shot, repeated use is the reason that all the other "stuff" is included in standard fixer formulas. I would try not to mix more than needed for a single session since the keeping qualities of such a mix are debatable. Re: One shot stop bath, if you are using a one shot developer and stop bath as well you can probably skip the acid and use water, just be sure to use fresh water for each print or you'll quickly be trying to use diluted developer to stop development! (I did by accident at one time and the effect, while interesting, is not what you are seeking.) Acid stop baths have the sometimes desirable quality of actually stopping development rather than just slowing it down and rinsing off the carryover paper developer. darkroommike > serched the net and posted questions on this groups, but i've not yet > very clear on one of my questons: how do i mix and use one-shot none- [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > - > woody |
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