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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / July 2007

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"1940s look" on B/W enlargement

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Adam - 09 Mar 2007 01:28 GMT
Hi everybody!  Would someone be able to help me with a darkroom
question?  I've been "shooting pictures" for several decades but this
semester marks my first actual darkroom experience.  I have one nice
shot (35mm Tri-X) of an old (restored) vending machine in an old
(restored) train station, and nothing in the image gives any clue that
it was taken recently.  What I'd like to do is make an enlargement that
somehow looks as if it was shot (and even printed?) in the 1930s or
1940s... at least something that would fool a casual viewer at first.
Does anyone here have any suggestions on how to (inexpensively) simulate
that '30s/'40s "look"?  As I said, I'm a beginner in the darkroom, and
my paper on hand is Ilford Multigrade IV RC De Luxe Pearl.  Thanks in
advance for any suggestions!

Adam
Signature

Email: rubin AT bestweb DOT net

Nicholas O. Lindan - 09 Mar 2007 02:24 GMT
> make an enlargement that somehow looks as if it was shot (and even
> printed?)
> in the 1930s or 1940s ... Ilford Multigrade IV RC De Luxe Pearl.

1) Sepia toner and a dip in weak tea to stain the
  whites to a beige color.

2) Matting spray: Paper was often a dull matte finish,
  RC Pearl looks distinctly modern.

3) Don't over enlarge: large negatives were the norm
  and so old pictures are often grainless - unless
  they were 35mm, of course, when they had enormous
  grain, but 35mm wasn't the norm for still life pics.

4) Mount to thin cardboard, sand the edges smooth, a
  little bit of a crease in one corner.  Maybe a small
  stain.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 09 Mar 2007 02:33 GMT
"Adam" <look@bottom.for.address> wrote

> make an enlargement that somehow looks as if it was shot (and even
> printed?) in the 1930s or 1940s ...

A good site with lots of examples of what people
expect an old photograph to look like:

http://www.squareamerica.com/

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

Adam - 10 Mar 2007 02:29 GMT
>> make an enlargement that somehow looks as if it was shot (and even
>> printed?)
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> 2) Matting spray: Paper was often a dull matte finish,
>    RC Pearl looks distinctly modern.

I'll have to see if the college photo lab has sepia toner (haven't used
any toner yet) and matting spray.  If not, maybe one of the art studios
in the same building will have matting spray.  The weak tea I can
provide myself!  Maybe I can get a sheet or two of warm-tone paper from
someone... that might be a step in the right direction.

> A good site with lots of examples of what people
> expect an old photograph to look like:
>
> http://www.squareamerica.com/

Thanks, Nicholas!  That's a good reference.  Someone in r.p.e.35mm just
posted a link to http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5010 
which has photos (mostly exteriors) of NYC from 1900 through 1970 or so.
 Also, you finally got me thinking: two miles from where I live is the
FDR home/library/museum (Franklin Delano Roosevelt was U.S. President
from 1933 to 1945), which of course will have a LOT of photos from that
time.  Thanks again for your advice!

Adam
John - 09 Mar 2007 07:57 GMT
>Hi everybody!  Would someone be able to help me with a darkroom
>question?  I've been "shooting pictures" for several decades but this
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Adam

Print slightly dark on a good fiber-based paper (preferably Galerie),
bleach back to normal density with Farmers and lightly tone with a
brown toner.

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net
Keith Tapscott. - 09 Mar 2007 13:41 GMT
John;582013 Wrote:

> Print slightly dark on a good fiber-based paper (preferably Galerie),
> bleach back to normal density with Farmers and lightly tone with a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Photographer & Webmaster
> Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.netIlford Galerie is very nice, also consider Kentmere Kentona

--
Keith Tapscott.
John - 09 Mar 2007 21:55 GMT
>Ilford Galerie is very nice, also consider Kentmere Kentona.

Very similar ?

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net
Adam - 10 Mar 2007 02:29 GMT
>> Print slightly dark on a good fiber-based paper (preferably Galerie),
>> bleach back to normal density with Farmers and lightly tone with a
>> brown toner.
>>
> Ilford Galerie is very nice, also consider Kentmere Kentona.

Thanks, Keith!  Unfortunately, at this point in the course, I know
absolutely nothing about fiber-based paper... but if I can get a few
sheets and learn how to work with it, I'll give it a try!

Adam
Adam - 10 Mar 2007 02:29 GMT
>> an enlargement that somehow looks as if it was shot (and even
>> printed?) in the 1930s or 1940s...
>
> Print slightly dark on a good fiber-based paper (preferably Galerie),
> bleach back to normal density with Farmers and lightly tone with a
> brown toner.

Thanks, John!  That's a little beyond what we've been taught so far, but
if I can get those supplies I'll give it a try.

Adam
John - 12 Mar 2007 13:26 GMT
>>> an enlargement that somehow looks as if it was shot (and even
> >> printed?) in the 1930s or 1940s...
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Thanks, John!  That's a little beyond what we've been taught so far, but
>if I can get those supplies I'll give it a try.

I've found that (depending on the paper) images that are given a
slight treatment in ferricyanide (Potassium Ferricyanide) first tone
much better. And it really is extremely simple.

Pot. Ferricyanide    50g
Pot. Bromide        50g
Water            1.0L

Now that's a stock formula that works quite well. If you bleach the
image back with this solution and then "redevelop" it with something
like a sulfide toner, you'll have an incredibly stable warm-toned
image. For a good toner take a look at :

http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopModules/StoreProductDetails.aspx?productID=
283&tabid=9&tabindex=2&categoryid=13&selection=0&langId=0


==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net
Adam - 13 Mar 2007 03:12 GMT
> I've found that (depending on the paper) images that are given a
> slight treatment in ferricyanide (Potassium Ferricyanide) first tone
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> like a sulfide toner, you'll have an incredibly stable warm-toned
> image.

I know nothing about toners yet... I assume those are after the fixer.
I don't even know if the college photo lab has facilities and
ingredients for mixing one's own.  Remember, my darkroom experience is
only a matter of weeks and we are still doing things "by the book."

I have my father's 1951-1952 edition of CRC's "Handbook of Chemistry and
Physics," and it has nearly 50 pages devoted to photographic formulae.
One is a reducer for lessening density and contrast of heavy negatives,
Potassium Ferricyanide 35g, Potassium bromide 10g, Water to make 1000
ccs, which is a similar solution to your suggestion.  If I knew what I
was doing, and the lab had the facilities and ingredients, this book
would be a wonderful source of period solutions!

>> In general the whites were a very
>> light grey and the blacks were a dark grey.  There wasn't much shadow
>> detail.  Most were sharp, but a few weren't.  I think one difference is
>> the range of greys -- modern images have all shades, but these had
maybe
>> only five or six distinct shades of grey between the lightest and
>> darkest.  Does this sound plausible?  If so, is there an easy way to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> highlight details. Same for the shadows. You can get a similar look by
> shooting that TX400 at EI64 and shortening development by about 50%.

Well, this afternoon I decided to combine that with Laura's suggestion
about using period equipment.  I wandered around another local college
that has many older buildings, and tried to get essentially the same
shots with my SLR (Tri-X @ ISO 400) and with an Argus C3 (Tri-X at EI
100).  Unfortunately my college is closed this week (Spring Break), so I
won't be able to get into the darkroom until next week.

This will be the first time I'll be developing film at anything other
than standard time and temperature.  The lab uses Sprint Standard film
developer (standard dilution, 1:9), and Sprint's FAQ says that for two
stops overexposure, subtract one letter from the chart recommendation.
They recommend letter "O" for normal Tri-X (e.g. 10:00 at 68F/20C) but
our instructor told us to use "N" (e.g. 8:30 at 68F), and subtracting
one letter would be "M", e.g. 7:30 at 68F.  I guess I ought to use
something between 5:00 (half their recommendation for normal exposure)
and 7:30 (their recommendation for two stops overexposed), maybe 6:00 or
6:30 or the equivalent for the temperature I'll be using.  Does that
sound reasonable?

Many thanks to you and to everybody who's shared suggestions here!  I'm
pleased to see that my first post in this NG has generated such
interesting and knowledgeable discussion.

Adam
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 13 Mar 2007 07:39 GMT
> Well, this afternoon I decided to combine that with Laura's suggestion
> about using period equipment.  I wandered around another local college
> that has many older buildings, and tried to get essentially the same
> shots with my SLR (Tri-X @ ISO 400) and with an Argus C3 (Tri-X at EI
> 100).  Unfortunately my college is closed this week (Spring Break), so I
> won't be able to get into the darkroom until next week.

I'm sorry I can't remember how to remove and replace it without damaging
anything, maybe someone else can, but you can take the lens off of
the C-3 and use it as an enlarging lens. It's not as good as a lens
designed to be used for enlarging but it works and may give you more
of the results you seek.

As for using Tri-X at ASA (let's get into the terms of the period) 100,
I'm not sure it will do what you expect. You could try films that are similar
in design to period films such as Plus-X (how different is the "new" anyway?),
Ilford Pan-F (similar to the late Panatomic-X) and Adox/Orwo/Efke KB-25,
which was sold as KB-14 at one time.

KB-14 is Orthopanchromatic, so it has less red response than regular
panchromatic film. It may make a difference.

You could also try to find an orthochromatic film that works for general
subjects, I have no idea if they are still around. Most roll film cameras
in the U.S. in the 1940s used Verichrome (NOT the later Verichrome Pan)
which was orthocrhomatic. Possibly a green or blue filter will duplicate
the results on panchromatic film.

You could also try developing your film in dilute paper developer. I started
out with Kodak "Tri-Chem-Packs" which included Dektol, a stop bath and fixer.
Dektol is a paper developer, but it was in this case used for film.

Geoff.
Signature

Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667  Fax ONLY: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

Ken Hart - 14 Mar 2007 04:34 GMT
snip>
> You could also try developing your film in dilute paper developer. I
> started
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Geoff.

As some "old timers" (sorry, I remember using TriChem paks!) may know, using
Dektol for film is an old newspaper photographer's trick. Developement time
is in the 3-4 minute range, and grain is in the golf ball  to basketball
size range. Contrast will usually be higher. The developement speed and
increased contrast were desirable for older newspaper halftones, and the
increased grain was a don't care.

It's an interesting look-- every beginner should try it, just to see the
effect, and then save it for the proper subject.
Adam - 15 Mar 2007 02:54 GMT
> As some "old timers" (sorry, I remember using TriChem paks!) may know, using
> Dektol for film is an old newspaper photographer's trick. Development time
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> It's an interesting look-- every beginner should try it, just to see the
> effect, and then save it for the proper subject.

Thanks, Ken!  That sounds very interesting.  Later on in the semester,
when I have a roll of film that I'm willing to risk, I may try that.
The college photo lab uses Sprint Standard film developer and Sprint
Paper developer.  How would I figure out the appropriate development time?

Adam
Adam - 15 Mar 2007 02:53 GMT
> I'm sorry I can't remember how to remove and replace it without damaging
> anything, maybe someone else can, but you can take the lens off of
> the C-3 and use it as an enlarging lens. It's not as good as a lens
> designed to be used for enlarging but it works and may give you more
> of the results you seek.

Thanks, Geoff.  I know how to take the lens off (several people have
posted the owner's manual online), but think that, for now, I'd better
stick to the standard enlarger lens.

> As for using Tri-X at ASA (let's get into the terms of the period) 100,
> I'm not sure it will do what you expect. You could try films that are similar
> in design to period films

How much has Tri-X changed since it was introduced?  That was in the
1950s, wasn't it?  My 1952 "Handbook of Chemistry and Physics" lists it
under "sheet film" but not "roll film."

> You could also try developing your film in dilute paper developer. I started
> out with Kodak "Tri-Chem-Packs" which included Dektol, a stop bath and fixer.
> Dektol is a paper developer, but it was in this case used for film.

Thanks very much for all your suggestions, but I'm still a newbie at all
this darkroom stuff, and a lot of what you're suggesting sounds beyond
my capabilities at the moment.  I'm not (yet) seriously into duplicating
the "1940s look," just wondering what I can do to print one
already-developed negative.

Adam
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 15 Mar 2007 07:39 GMT
> How much has Tri-X changed since it was introduced?  That was in the
> 1950s, wasn't it?  My 1952 "Handbook of Chemistry and Physics" lists it
> under "sheet film" but not "roll film."

That's beyond the scope of this group. A few years ago Kodak closed their
factory that produced their black and white films and sold the equipment
to Lucy in China.

They modified the films they continued to make so that they could be
produced on the same equipment as color film, Kodak claimed there
was no difference except that the developing time was slightly different.

If you ask on any group that discusses Tri-X you will get answers that
range from "no change at all, including development" to "it's a
completely different film" and everything in between.

You might want to collect opinions, but since it's a moot point (there
is no old Tri-X except in private collections) you can just assume
what you get is it and use it as it comes.

Note that there were two films sold as Tri-X and they were (are)
slightly different. One in 35mm and 120, and the other Tri-X Pan Professional
in 120, 220 and sheet film.

> Thanks very much for all your suggestions, but I'm still a newbie at all
> this darkroom stuff, and a lot of what you're suggesting sounds beyond
> my capabilities at the moment.  I'm not (yet) seriously into duplicating
> the "1940s look," just wondering what I can do to print one
> already-developed negative.

I think you still need to define the "1940's look". The problem is that
for every shortcoming that people have mentioned, you can find someone who
did it better. Even before multiple grades of contrast paper where
available, people adjusted their results with exposure and development
changes.

I have often seen the claim that RC paper, invented in the 1970s changed
the way prints look, but I remember glossy prints I made in the 1960's
that had the same surface and similar brightness if they were dryed
properly. RC made it easier and more common.

Geoff.

Signature

Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667  Fax ONLY: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

Adam - 16 Mar 2007 21:46 GMT
>> How much has Tri-X changed since it was introduced?
>
> That's beyond the scope of this group. A few years ago Kodak closed their
> factory that produced their black and white films and sold the equipment
> to Lucy in China.

Hmmm.  The Tri-X I bought from B&H in January says "Made in USA,
Finished in Mexico for Eastman Kodak Company."

> Note that there were two films sold as Tri-X and they were (are)
> slightly different. One in 35mm and 120, and the other Tri-X Pan Professional
> in 120, 220 and sheet film.

What does "professional" mean on B/W film?  I know what it means on
color film, regarding the color shift.

>> I'm not (yet) seriously into duplicating
>> the "1940s look," just wondering what I can do to print one
>> already-developed negative.
>
> I think you still need to define the "1940's look".

I agree!  I think that is probably the biggest reason that I'm not sure
how to obtain it.

> B&H is a good place to order from, but you should look at Freestyle in
> L.A. They have a much wider selection of film, paper and chemicals.

I have a catalog from Freestyle that I requested online last fall.  They
do have a much wider selection, but I really think I'd better
concentrate on learning the basics of darkroom work before I get into
specialties.

BTW the college is 70 miles from NYC, so it's an easy day trip by car or
train.  On the first day of class, the instructor said something like,
"Here is a list of supplies you have to buy.  You can get most, but not
all, locally, but you'll pay twice as much.  You can get all of them
from B&H, Adorama, or Alkit in NYC."  Some students went to NYC, some
bought locally, I ordered online from B&H, except for the few things
that couldn't be shipped, like compressed air.  Example: 35mm Tri-X, 36
exposures: all those big stores charge around (US) $3.69 per roll.  The
one local store that has it charges $6.09.

Adam
Joe Makowiec - 16 Mar 2007 22:08 GMT
> I agree!  I think that is probably the biggest reason that I'm not
> sure how to obtain it.

One suggestion I haven't seen yet is to research the Zone System.  Even
if you decide not to use it, you'll get some insight into how people were
thinking about tonality in the first half of the 20th century.

Signature

Joe Makowiec
http://makowiec.org/
Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe

Adam - 18 Mar 2007 16:36 GMT
> One suggestion I haven't seen yet is to research the Zone System.

Thanks, Joe!  I have a copy of "Zone System Manual" by Minor White (4th
ed., 1967) but haven't really looked at it seriously yet.  In fact, I
have a small pile of books about photography that I've acquired over the
years, and keep meaning to read.  The most imposing is the textbook for
the course I'm in ("Photography" by Bruce Warren, 2nd ed.) which is 600
pages!

Adam
Nicholas O. Lindan - 18 Mar 2007 20:38 GMT
> [How do I get a 40's look in a photograph using modern
> materials...]

Push, don't pull.

The 40's was a decade with three very distinct periods: Pre-WWII, WWII and
Post-WWII.  Let's try for a 30's look, a 30's drugstore processing look as I
take it you aren't looking for Weston, Lange or Hurell [or Capa].

I would try for featureless gray shadows and fogged featureless highlights.
This example was done in Photoshop and is the look I am talking about:

The scene:
http://www.nolindan.com/UsenetStuff/OLMcCoyOrig.jpg

The 30's drugstore print:
http://www.nolindan.com/UsenetStuff/OLMcCoyOld.jpg

You get it with:

 o Underexposed and overdeveloped negatives;
 o Normal contrast paper that is overexposed and
   under developed;
 o Slow film with no grain.

You _push_ the film.

That's backwards from the advice you have so far received.
Here's the logic:

Pictures were taken with box brownies fixed at F11
or so and at 1/50th of a second -- "sunny-16" with a safety margin.

As a result the camera only takes properly exposed pictures on sunny days;
between the hours of 10am and 4pm [summer time]; and with the sun over the
photographer's shoulder.  Kodak tells people this with every roll of film
and every camera sold.

But many pictures are taken on cloudy days, in the
shade, at sunset...  Under these conditions most negatives on a roll are
severely underexposed.

Drugstore processing in the 30's was just that: there was a darkroom in the
back of the drugstore and the druggist or clerk developed pictures in the
evening.

The druggist needs to keep the customer happy and turn a profit.  He has to
work quickly and always produce an acceptable (not good, just acceptable)
print with normal facial tones.

And so:

1) Development by inspection: the whole roll is developed for as long as it
takes so that just about every negative on the roll has black highlights
showing through the back of the film - even on the most underexposed shots.
Since there isn't any exposure control in the camera the varying light
conditions are accommodated by varying the film development time. And paper
developer is often used for film to give pictures that extra -oomph-.

In short, most of the negatives are _pushed_, the rest are just way
overdeveloped.

2) Contact printing:  Enlargers are expensive in the 30's and take time to
operate - enlargements' cost extra. But negatives are large, ~3x5" is a
common negative size so contact prints are good enough.  In any case, there
is no grain in the prints.  Drugstore processing is the reason all those
fancy oak contact printing boxes with 3x5" platens show up on ebay.

3) Overexposed paper: The negatives aren't looked at before they are printed
so all prints are made at the same exposure. The printing time is such that
the facial tones in both pushed and overdeveloped negatives are somewhere on
the paper's response curve.  As a result the paper is overexposed for most
negatives - the overexposed sunny-16 negatives take a lot of light to print
through the faces and some highlight detail.

4) Prints not fully developed:  Since the negatives aren't looked at the
different negative densities are accommodated by developing the prints by
inspection.  To avoid massive deep shadows and high-contrast clown faces on
the pushed negatives the prints are pulled before development is complete.
The prints are thrown in the stop when the deepest tone is a dark gray.
Because the print is overexposed the highlights on most negatives printed
through and appear gray.

My advice: Use a slow film, push it, overexpose the print and yank it from
the developer tray before it is done.

A bit of lens flare helps, I put some in with Photoshop.  Because they are
contact prints old pictures are often quite sharp and a soft-focus filter
won't give the same effect.  I would sprinkle cornstarch on a filter.  Or
you could always get an old box-brownie and cut down some sheet film for a
shot-at-a-time camera.
Adam - 19 Mar 2007 18:15 GMT
>> [How do I get a 40's look in a photograph using modern
>> materials...]
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> The 30's drugstore print:
> http://www.nolindan.com/UsenetStuff/OLMcCoyOld.jpg

Thanks very much for posting those!  That's pretty much the "look" I had
in mind.  Maybe the "secret" is digital photo enhancement.

Adam
Nicholas O. Lindan - 19 Mar 2007 18:33 GMT
>>> [How do I get a 40's look in a photograph using modern
>>> materials...]
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Thanks very much for posting those!  That's pretty much the "look" I had
> in mind.  Maybe the "secret" is digital photo enhancement.

Nope, the secret is to make a real balls-up of the whole
process: taking the picture, developing the film and making
the print.  If you do each one of those _wrong_ that is
the look you will get.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

Adam - 19 Mar 2007 19:07 GMT
>> That's pretty much the "look" I had
>> in mind.  Maybe the "secret" is digital photo enhancement.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the print.  If you do each one of those _wrong_ that is
> the look you will get.

That sounds too easy to be a valid photographic technique!  Maybe I
should try printing some of my severely underexposed/overexposed
negatives to see what I get.

Adam
Nicholas O. Lindan - 19 Mar 2007 22:07 GMT
> Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
> > the secret is to make a real balls-up of the whole
> > process
> That sounds too easy

Ah, but it is very hard to do, first you have to know
how to do everything right before you can consistently
know how to do everything wrong.

> to be a valid technique!

Getting it wrong is the basis of all comedy and all
tragedy.  How much more valid can one get?

> Maybe I should try printing some of my severely underexposed/overexposed
> negatives to see what I get.

Just overexpose them in the enlarger and jerk them out
of the developer after 15 seconds, dilute the developer
4x if you are using RC paper.  Or use really smelly old
tar-like developer.  If you have trouble getting the
highlights fogged just flick the room lights on for a
short flash, exposing the whole sheet of paper.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

pico - 21 Mar 2007 02:12 GMT
> Thanks very much for posting those!  That's pretty much the "look" I had
> in mind.  Maybe the "secret" is digital photo enhancement.

Oh god, shoot me!  Digital enhancement to reproduce crap! It's time to die!
Adam - 22 Mar 2007 03:07 GMT
>> Maybe the "secret" is digital photo enhancement.
>
> Oh god, shoot me!  Digital enhancement to reproduce crap! It's time to die!

Don't worry about me -- I don't even know HOW to manipulate digital
images.  Remember, I chose the "film" course, not the "digital" one!

Adam
pico - 21 Mar 2007 02:12 GMT
>> [How do I get a 40's look in a photograph using modern
>> materials...]
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I would try for featureless gray shadows and fogged featureless highlights.
> This example was done in Photoshop and is the look I am talking about:

Nicholas is right-on. Most of the photographic prits of that period were
horrid, and just as he cites.

I guess you had to be there. :)  I was.
Richard Knoppow - 22 Jul 2007 06:02 GMT
>>> [How do I get a 40's look in a photograph using modern
>>> materials...]
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> I guess you had to be there. :)  I was.

    I don't know what you have been looking at but even
drugstore prints of this period were not as bad as you
describe and prints made by amateurs and pros were about as
good as modern materials, at least as far as tone rendition.
    Technical data for old materials is available and does
not show the kind of limitations being described.
    Too often people who want a 30's or 40's look are
getting their ideas from either poor photomechanical
reproductions in magazines or books or from badly degraded
prints, or bad scans on the Internet.
    Reprints can be poorly made and all too often are.
    BTW, Edward Weston made some pretty bad prints. For
instance the Huntington has a collection of overly dark,
just plain bad prints Weston made over a rather long period
of time.
    Please find someone who has a collection of family
snapshots from the periods you are interested in and see
what they really look like. Photography is a very old
technology and, while it has certainly been improved in the
last seventy years, it was pretty much perfected before
that. Even in the 1880s photos with good tone reproduction
were being made.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 22 Jul 2007 07:04 GMT
> pico wrote:
> > > > [How do I get a 40's look in a photograph using modern
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > Nicholas is right-on. Most of the photographic prits of that period were
> > horrid, and just as he cites. I guess you had to be there. :)  I was.

> I don't know what you have been looking at but even drugstore prints of
> this period were not as bad as you describe and prints made by amateurs
> and pros were about as good as modern materials

Yes, but what is sought is not the reality of old photographs
but the perception of old photographs.

>     Too often people who want a 30's or 40's look are getting their ideas
> from either poor photomechanical reproductions in magazines or books or
> from badly degraded prints, or bad scans on the Internet.

Exactly, they are looking for just that: bad reproductions
of bad photographs.  The question is "how to do it in PhotoShop?"

I imagine it changes by family, but the photos in my family
albums are, almost without exception, technical junque.
I think it has something to do with Scottish genetics:
"Ye'll no be wantin' that two-penny lens, this old
bit o' broken whisky bottle will do you fine.  And no
be gettin' those expensive 'enlargements' -- the Lord
d'nae take with graven images and flattery."

Though, to tell the truth, the countenances of my forebears
are of a quality that is best not preserved.

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Jean-David Beyer - 21 Mar 2007 20:52 GMT
>> One suggestion I haven't seen yet is to research the Zone System.
>
> Thanks, Joe!  I have a copy of "Zone System Manual" by Minor White (4th
> ed., 1967) but haven't really looked at it seriously yet.

If you are at all scientific, you will not like that book. I know the zone
system quite well, having studied Ansel Adams' Basic Photo Series books,
both the early edition, and the "new" revised edition. But Minor White's
book is just about incomprehensible. The later one, by White, Zakia, and
Todd is even worse because it seems more scientific. I wonder if Zakia even
read it; he is known as a good photo scientist and sensitometrist, but the
book is very sloppy technically.

Minor White was a great photographer; perhaps he was a good teacher, but he
was way too much of a mystic to teach the technique of photography.

> In fact, I
> have a small pile of books about photography that I've acquired over the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Adam

Well, if you really want an imposing textbook, consider "The Theory of the
Photographic Process" third edition, edited by T.H.James. Out of print, but
well worth looking for.

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UC - 21 Mar 2007 20:58 GMT
> >> One suggestion I haven't seen yet is to research the Zone System.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> both the early edition, and the "new" revised edition. But Minor White's
> book is just about incomprehensible.

Too kind, your words are. The book is a disaster, unscientific from
beginning to end. It would be laughed out of any philosophy of science
class, by the poorest students in the class.

> The later one, by White, Zakia, and
> Todd is even worse because it seems more scientific. I wonder if Zakia even
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Minor White was a great photographer; perhaps he was a good teacher, but he
> was way too much of a mystic to teach the technique of photography.

He may have got one or two things right, but that was only when he was
reporting what photographers actually did, not why they did it.

> > In fact, I
> > have a small pile of books about photography that I've acquired over the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
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pico - 22 Mar 2007 03:30 GMT
> Too kind, your words are. The book is a disaster, unscientific from
> beginning to end. It would be laughed out of any philosophy of science
> class, by the poorest students in the class.

So UC is cashing in his three-credit class in Philosophy, and I'll bet
it bounces.
Adam - 22 Mar 2007 03:07 GMT
>> Thanks, Joe!  I have a copy of "Zone System Manual" by Minor White (4th
>> ed., 1967) but haven't really looked at it seriously yet.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> both the early edition, and the "new" revised edition. But Minor White's
> book is just about incomprehensible.

In that case I will move it to the bottom of the pile!

>> The most imposing is the textbook for the course I'm in ("Photography"
>> by Bruce Warren, 2nd ed.) which is 600 pages!
>
> Well, if you really want an imposing textbook, consider "The Theory of the
> Photographic Process" third edition, edited by T.H.James. Out of print, but
> well worth looking for.

I'll have to wait until my budget recovers from the course I'm in now!
This is by far the most expensive course I have ever taken.  NOT
counting tuition, college fees, and the textbook, I have spent over US
$400 on supplies so far, and I already owned a suitable camera (some
students had to buy a camera as well).  Thanks for all your suggestions!

Adam
pico - 17 Mar 2007 01:18 GMT
> What does "professional" mean on B/W film?  I know what it means on
> color film, regarding the color shift.

For Kodak B&W films it means a film base that can be retouched.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 17 Mar 2007 18:39 GMT
>> What does "professional" mean on B/W film?  I know what it means on
>> color film, regarding the color shift.
>
> For Kodak B&W films it means a film base that can be retouched.

It also means different exposure/development. For example I have no idea
if Tri-X and Tri-X Pan Proffessional are different emulsions, but
but the exposure (ISO 400 vs 320 for proffessional) is different.

The difference in development may just be compensation for the greater
exposure.

Geoff.

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pico - 18 Mar 2007 03:36 GMT
> It also means different exposure/development. For example I have no idea
> if Tri-X and Tri-X Pan Proffessional are different emulsions,

They are very different. It's just a bit of bad judgment that Kodak
named them both Tri-X. Look at the stock number. Professional is
entirely different.
Adam - 18 Mar 2007 16:36 GMT
Several very helpful people wrote:
>>> What does "professional" mean on B/W film?  I know what it means on
>>> color film, regarding the color shift.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The difference in development may just be compensation for the greater
> exposure.

> They are very different. It's just a bit of bad judgment that Kodak
> named them both Tri-X. Look at the stock number. Professional is
> entirely different.

Thanks, everyone, for all your help with this!  Which film am I using?
It's 35 mm, 36 exposure, the box says "Kodak Professional Tri-X 400
Film, 400TX Black & White Negative Film" and "ISO   400."  Catalog
number is 866 7073.  No "Pan" or "Panchromatic" anywhere.  The inside of
the box that each roll comes in has recommended development times for
Kodak developers.  (I remember years ago when Tri-X came with a sheet
giving exposures, flash guide numbers, developing details, and more.  I
still have one of those sheets, dated 6-76.)

Adam
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 18 Mar 2007 17:09 GMT
> Thanks, everyone, for all your help with this!  Which film am I using?
> It's 35 mm, 36 exposure, the box says "Kodak Professional Tri-X 400
> Film, 400TX Black & White Negative Film" and "ISO   400."  Catalog
> number is 866 7073.

400TX is the "consumer" version of Tri-X. It's supposed to be the
same as the original Tri-X pan, made for many many years. I say supposed
to be because Kodak closed the plant that made it and sold the eqipment
to Lucky in China. They moved production over to the same plant that
makes color film.

Kodak claims it's exactly the same except for development time, some
people claim it's exactly the same and has the same devlopment times
as the old film, some people claim it's a different film with the same
name.

Since you don't have any history with it, I would assume it's the same
film for exposure but follow the development guidelines.

> No "Pan" or "Panchromatic" anywhere.  

The Pan definition was necessary because Kodak produced two films
with the same name at one time, for example Verichrome (an orthochromatic
film) and Verichrome Pan (a panchromatic film with similar exposure
requirments). Tri-X AFAIK was always a panchromatic film.

There was a whole line of them Panatomic-X (asa 32, IMHO the best of the
lot), Plus-X (asa 125, the most versatile), Tri-X (asa 400), Royal-X
(asa 1200), Super-X (asa 80).

From what I remember the boxes of my youth said "Tri-X Pan" on them
and "Tri-X Pan Professional", circa mid 1960s.

> The inside of
> the box that each roll comes in has recommended development times for
> Kodak developers.  (I remember years ago when Tri-X came with a sheet
> giving exposures, flash guide numbers, developing details, and more.  I
> still have one of those sheets, dated 6-76.)

I expect that Kodak stopped providing them because people no longer read
them. By 1980 most people had cameras with built in meters and developers
came with their own instructions. Flash instructions were of no use because
electronic flashes varied too much and bulbs were on their way out.

Keep it though, it's a reminder of the days when people cared about what
their camera did.

Geoff.

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Adam - 19 Mar 2007 18:14 GMT
> 400TX is the "consumer" version of Tri-X.

Hmmm.  The Tri-X I bought from B&H in January says "Made in USA,
finished in Mexico for Eastman Kodak Company."

> There was a whole line of them Panatomic-X (asa 32, IMHO the best of the
> lot), Plus-X (asa 125, the most versatile), Tri-X (asa 400), Royal-X
> (asa 1200), Super-X (asa 80).

The 1951-52 edition of CRC's "Handbook of Chemistry and Physics" lists,
under "Eastman, 35mm", Panatomic X (ASA 25), Plus X (ASA 50), Super XX
(ASA 100), Direct Positive Pan (ASA 64 -- reversal film?), and
Kodachrome Daylight and Type A (Tungsten).  Tri X Pan, Verichrome,
Kodacolor and Ektachrome are listed under other formats, but not under 35mm.

Adam
David Nebenzahl - 19 Mar 2007 08:23 GMT
Adam spake thus:

>> 400TX is the "consumer" version of Tri-X.
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Kodacolor and Ektachrome are listed under other formats, but not under
> 35mm.

These things all change; those are really old figures. The films I
remember from the Good Old Days (the 1970s) were Pan(atomic)-X at ASA 25
(I think, or maybe 32?), Plus-X at 125, and Tri-X at 400. Verichrome Pan
was 125 too (but not available in 35mm, just 120/220).

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Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 19 Mar 2007 20:19 GMT
> These things all change; those are really old figures. The films I
> remember from the Good Old Days (the 1970s) were Pan(atomic)-X at ASA 25
> (I think, or maybe 32?), Plus-X at 125, and Tri-X at 400. Verichrome Pan
> was 125 too (but not available in 35mm, just 120/220).

Verchrome PAN was a PANCHROMATIC film, Verichrome was an ORTHOCROMATIC film.
Verchrome PAN replaced Verichrome around 1956. AFAIK in the 1960's it was
available in 126, 127, 828, 116, 616, 120 and 620 but don't count on it.

It was intended to replace Verichrome, but was significantly faster. It
did not matter much as the exposure latitude was wide enough that you
could expose it in cameras with fixed exposures for Verichrome.

Geoff.

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David Nebenzahl - 19 Mar 2007 09:26 GMT
Geoffrey S. Mendelson spake thus:

>>These things all change; those are really old figures. The films I
>>remember from the Good Old Days (the 1970s) were Pan(atomic)-X at ASA 25
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Verchrome PAN replaced Verichrome around 1956. AFAIK in the 1960's it was
> available in 126, 127, 828, 116, 616, 120 and 620 but don't count on it.

Oh, yeah, now I remember using it (VP) in my trusty Instamatic, so it
was definitely available in 126 cartridges. All I ever shot in those
days was 126 and, later, 35mm (and then 4x5).

All this is quite academic at this point, of course.

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Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 19 Mar 2007 21:19 GMT
> All this is quite academic at this point, of course.

Sort of. The original question was "how do I use modern materials to produce
a print that people will think was made in the 1940s. (to paraphrase it).

Since the original poster had no idea of what made a photograph look
that way, or even how "that way" looked, the discussion has been about
the look, the techniques and the materials used at the time.

The more product names, the more information about exposure, processing, etc,
the more he can research further.

One question I had that was never answered (and maybe no one knows) is can
you still buy a general purpose orthochromatic film? I know there are still
orthochromatic lithograph films out there (albeit harder to get than a
few years ago), but is there a general purpose one?

I think the closest modern equivalent to a 1940's film is (whatever it's
called this week) KB25, which was sold as Adox KB14. It's panchromatic,
so it's not the same as Verichrome and similar films, but it's not
as red sensitve as other modern films.

However I don't know if it matters. one may be able to get a similar
result with panchromatic film and a green or blue filter.

Geoff.

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David Nebenzahl - 19 Mar 2007 11:57 GMT
Geoffrey S. Mendelson spake thus:

> I think the closest modern equivalent to a 1940's film is (whatever it's
> called this week) KB25, which was sold as Adox KB14. It's panchromatic,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> However I don't know if it matters. one may be able to get a similar
> result with panchromatic film and a green or blue filter.

Yes, I think that can be pretty easily "faked" with filters. (Real ones,
not digital ones.)

Anyone know for sure? Hello, Richard?

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Adam - 22 Mar 2007 03:07 GMT
> Sort of. The original question was "how do I use modern materials to produce
> a print that people will think was made in the 1940s. (to paraphrase it).
>
> Since the original poster had no idea of what made a photograph look
> that way, or even how "that way" looked, the discussion has been about
> the look, the techniques and the materials used at the time.

That's an accurate summary.  I may try playing around with prints from
that one negative, but what I really ought to be concentrating on is how
to make the best possible prints using modern materials.

Adam
Richard Knoppow - 22 Jul 2007 06:07 GMT
>>> What does "professional" mean on B/W film?  I know what it means on
>>> color film, regarding the color shift.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Geoff.

     Tri-X 400 and Tri-X Professional 320 are completely
different emulsions with different tone rendition. The
ISO-400 film is a general purpose, medium toe, film. The
ISO-320 version is a very long toe film intended for
obtaining brilliant highlights in commercial work. It is
useful for some types of portraits. The difference is not
large but quite noticeable if a direct comparison is done.
    At one time Kodak made a number of films with the long
toe type characteristic, for instance, many of its portrait
films had this sort of curve.
Lloyd Erlick - 14 Mar 2007 14:44 GMT
>I know nothing about toners yet... I assume those are after the fixer.
>I don't even know if the college photo lab has facilities and
>ingredients for mixing one's own.  Remember, my darkroom experience is
>only a matter of weeks and we are still doing things "by the book."

March 14, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

You're in a temporarily awkward position many
here in rec.photo.darkroom would envy!

I'd suggest you keep a notebook of all your
photo activities, so mistakes can be made to
pay for themselves. Also keep many of your
'failed' prints, because they can become
useful for experiments and first tries later.
Prints you might discard because they are too
dark are very good for playing around with
bleaching and redeveloping.

The potassium ferricyanide bleach being
discussed here is very easy to prepare. You
could easily get a small amount of
ferricyanide even if the school lab does not
have any. I suppose schools might be
squeamish about anything that even might be
imagined dangerous, so a substance with the
word 'cyanide' in it might be non grata.

However, the facts about potassium
ferricyanide are well known; it is not a
particularly dangerous substance, and will
not release cyanide in any form under any
conditions likely to exist in a normal
workplace or home. (It requires exposure to
strong acid or high heat, much higher than a
usual home oven, to release cyanide.)

It's easy to learn the pertinent facts about
any and all substances used in the darkroom.
Fundamental lab safety procedures are simple
and easy to learn. A normal, non-specialized
personal darkroom can be much safer than a
usual kitchen. In fact, in the darkroom it is
possible to work with close to absolute
non-contact with any chemicals. I work with
the single-tray method for making prints, and
I find I can come very close to not even
getting my hands wet with tap water.

Chemical safety issues are easy to solve by
knowing the substances and avoiding dangerous
ones unless a specific (knowledgeable!)
decision to use one is made, and by
eliminating or limiting bodily contact with
even those safe substances.

When I was in school I failed to form any
long-term relationships with instructors or
institutions. If you're in a photo school or
university situation, you might have a very
long term source of hard to find chemicals,
valuable knowledge connections, mentors, and
job search assistance in the future.

My one big piece of unsolicited advice: keep
a detailed log of everything. Chemicals,
camera exposures, film experiences, print
experiences, people you meet and what they
might have to offer you. If that seems too
selfish, do it anyway and just make sure you
help out some new photog down the road.

Having too much stuff in your log will not
bother you in thirty years; too little and
you'll chuck it.

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
________________________________
--
Adam - 15 Mar 2007 02:54 GMT
>> I don't even know if the college photo lab has facilities and
>> ingredients for mixing one's own.  Remember, my darkroom experience is
>> only a matter of weeks and we are still doing things "by the book."
>
> You're in a temporarily awkward position many
> here in rec.photo.darkroom would envy!

Thanks, Lloyd!  I guess that right now, for the most part, I ought to
learn how to do things well the "standard" way, rather than
experimenting with techniques for special purposes.  It took me a while
to realize that I'd been "spoiled" by those machines that automatically
adjust the exposure for each print, as my first few rolls had negative
densities all over the place.

> I'd suggest you keep a notebook of all your
> photo activities, so mistakes can be made to
> pay for themselves.

I just recently learned the "trick" of writing exposure info in pencil
on the back of each enlargement.  (Somehow our instructor forgot to tell
us about that!)  I have a small notebook in my camera bag, to keep track
of where and when photos were taken.

> Also keep many of your
> 'failed' prints, because they can become
> useful for experiments and first tries later.

I've been keeping the ones that are too dark.  Several times I've
developed the "scrap" sheet of paper used for focusing, and gotten a
solid black print, which I didn't keep.

> It's easy to learn the pertinent facts about
> any and all substances used in the darkroom.
> Fundamental lab safety procedures are simple
> and easy to learn.

Our instructor hasn't said much about that.  I think he keeps forgetting
that we are beginners and don't know things he'd consider "obvious."

> When I was in school I failed to form any
> long-term relationships with instructors or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> valuable knowledge connections, mentors, and
> job search assistance in the future.

This is just a community college (state-supported, two year) and the
number of photography classes is relatively small.  And I'm not going
for a career or a degree in photography, just taking one course a
semester in whatever interests me.

> My one big piece of unsolicited advice: keep
> a detailed log of everything. Chemicals,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> selfish, do it anyway and just make sure you
> help out some new photog down the road.

So far I've just been keeping a record of where and when photos were
taken, and putting exposure info on contact sheets and enlargements.  I
haven't yet figured out how so many people keep such detailed info on
each shot they make and still have time to take pictures!

Adam
Lloyd Erlick - 15 Mar 2007 16:59 GMT
>I just recently learned the "trick" of writing exposure info in pencil
>on the back of each enlargement.  (Somehow our instructor forgot to tell
>us about that!)  I have a small notebook in my camera bag, to keep track
>of where and when photos were taken.

March 15, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

That method necessitates flipping the print
over on a surface, which just invites crud.

I prefer to work with a numbering system so
each exposure on film has a serial number,
and each print has a number derived from
that. Each print gets a tiny number written
at the outermost edge when it's under the
enlrger, so I can make lengthy notes to my
heart's content in a notebook (with pages
numbered ... you get the idea ...).

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
________________________________
--
Nicholas O. Lindan - 15 Mar 2007 19:33 GMT
> I prefer to work with a numbering system so
> each exposure on film has a serial number,
> and each print has a number derived from
> that. Each print gets a tiny number ...

Sounds like a job for a PalmPilot and a darkroom
computer.

> I can make lengthy notes to my
> heart's content in a notebook (with pages
> numbered ... you get the idea ...).

I take the most notes when taking pictures
that need not and should not be taken: boring,
pedestrian, uninteresting, so what, hum ho...
usually bracketed to a fair-thee-well.

If it is the perfect shot there are no notes.

I suppose I can only do one thing at a time:
take pictures or take notes.

The most useless notes are ones noting the
shutter speed and aperture unless there was
something special about the ones picked.

Now what sort of dance I did with the spot meter
that led me to the (invariably very wrong) exposure I
used is useful information.

My notes are a compendium of what _not_ to do.

Signature

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Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

Lloyd Erlick - 16 Mar 2007 20:28 GMT
>> I prefer to work with a numbering system so
>> each exposure on film has a serial number,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Sounds like a job for a PalmPilot and a darkroom
>computer.
...

>My notes are a compendium of what _not_ to do.

March 16, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

Yeah, lots of button pushing. I employ a
device with but a single button on the end of
a short cylinder, out of which protrudes a
tiny pointed tip suitable for writing with
the digits whenever the little button is
pushed.

But lately I've caught myself in the act of
scanning the papyrus on which I've scribed my
notes. I now have a burgeoning computer file
of printing notes. I put an image file of how
I've cropped the neg for the print, too,
numbered appropriately so it stays with the
note page.

The Google product called Picasa2 is a
wonderful image filing and cataloguing and
viewing program. I literally use it to read
my notes (which are all stored as jpg files).
So who sez I haven't come into the modern
age, even though I use film?

My notes really have been no more than the
compendium you mentioned. But also, I've
never been interested in much out of my notes
except for what I did wrong, and very
occasionally what I chanced to do right when
I thought I was doing something else.

Sometimes I make prints that I know will look
very much like each other, but have slight
differences. My notes make it easier to
eventually get around to comparing them when
they've been finished.

Also, over the long term the notebook turns
into a special form of personal diary. Once
in a while during a darkroom session I have
insightful thoughts, and they get into that
notebook.

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
________________________________
--
pico - 17 Mar 2007 01:17 GMT
> Yeah, lots of button pushing. I employ a
> device with but a single button on the end of
> a short cylinder, out of which protrudes a
> tiny pointed tip suitable for writing with
> the digits whenever the little button is
> pushed.

Most excellent. Thanks for that!
Ken Hart - 17 Mar 2007 21:27 GMT
>> Yeah, lots of button pushing. I employ a
>> device with but a single button on the end of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Most excellent. Thanks for that!

Mr Erlick (whose knowledge of photography, IMHO, ranks right up with Mr
Richard K.!) forgot to mention that his high tech record keeping device
requires no battery or AC adapter. Also, the "Mark I" version of his device,
which has no button and the point is always exposed will work upside down or
in zero gravity. The "Mark I" version does require an accessory honing
device, which may require a power source; manual honing devices are
available.
Lloyd Erlick - 21 Mar 2007 07:14 GMT
>>> Yeah, lots of button pushing. I employ a
>>> device with but a single button on the end of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>device, which may require a power source; manual honing devices are
>available.

March 21, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

Thanks for the kind words! But I can assure
you the breadth of my knowledge is but a
pencil smudge next to Richard's...

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
________________________________
--
Jean-David Beyer - 21 Mar 2007 20:54 GMT
>>> Yeah, lots of button pushing. I employ a
>>> device with but a single button on the end of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> device, which may require a power source; manual honing devices are
> available.

Some even come with an integrated error-correcting device.

Signature

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Lloyd Erlick - 15 Mar 2007 17:05 GMT
>haven't yet figured out how so many people keep such detailed info on
>each shot they make and still have time to take pictures!

March 15, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

Well, it's mostly because many rolls are used
for a given session. So the details are very
similar for many exposures.

Street photographing under random light over
long periods on a single roll of film --
well, I have years of that from the seventies
with no notes and there are things I'd love
to know ... it's a good thing the film comes
with edge markings.

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
________________________________
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 09 Mar 2007 10:24 GMT
> Hi everybody!  Would someone be able to help me with a darkroom
> question?

I'd save yourself a lot of trouble. Print it on normaly and then matt it
with a slightly off white matt and put it in a beat up frame with
lightly scratched glass you get at a yard sale or thrift store.

While people associtate sepia tone with age, it's the turn of the 20th
century they are thinking about. The yellowing of paper which also is
associated with age came with high acid paper which was not produced
until after the second world war. The off white matt will suggest
it anyway.

IMHO people will see the scratched frame and glass and assume it's old.

You will get comments like, "nice picture, why don't you reframe it". :-)

Geoff.
Signature

Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667  Fax ONLY: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

Adam - 10 Mar 2007 02:29 GMT
> I'd save yourself a lot of trouble. Print it on normaly and then matt it
> with a slightly off white matt and put it in a beat up frame with
> lightly scratched glass you get at a yard sale or thrift store.

Thanks, Geoff!  I might do just that once the course is over.  Right now
the instructor just wants 8x10 enlargements.  That's a great idea, though!

Adam
laura halliday - 10 Mar 2007 19:47 GMT
> Hi everybody!  Would someone be able to help me with a darkroom
> question?  I've been "shooting pictures" for several decades but this
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> my paper on hand is Ilford Multigrade IV RC De Luxe Pearl.  Thanks in
> advance for any suggestions!

While it's a little late for this particular shot (and others
have given excellent sggestions), my favourite way to
take period-looking shots is with a period camera and
old-tech film.

There are lots of 1940s folders and such on EBay,
and several companies still make what is essentially
fossilized 1950s film. Anything that doesn't say
"TMax" or "Delta" on it is worth a try.

I can take perfect 1950s newspaper photographer
pictures with my Crown Graphic and happy family
vacation pictures with any of my old Kodak folders.
Kodak were inordinately fond of 620 film, but it's easy
to respool modern 120 film on to 620 spools.

Laura Halliday VE7LDH     "Que les nuages soient notre
Grid: CN89lg                    pied a terre..."
ICBM: 49 16.57 N 123 0.24 W        - Hospital/Shafte
Adam - 12 Mar 2007 01:56 GMT
> While it's a little late for this particular shot (and others
> have given excellent suggestions), my favourite way to
> take period-looking shots is with a period camera and
> old-tech film.

Thanks, Laura!  In this case, I used a Canon TX (1976; it was the bottom
of the line of which the F-1 was the top) and good old Tri-X.  I'm
planning on shooting one roll of Tri-X with my uncle's Argus C3
("brick"), which seems appropriate for 1950s-type snapshots.

Adam
John - 12 Mar 2007 13:29 GMT
>While it's a little late for this particular shot (and others
>have given excellent sggestions), my favourite way to
>take period-looking shots is with a period camera and
>old-tech film.

That's a very good point. Nothing looks quite like an image created
with an old 127 Ektar lens !

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net
David Nebenzahl - 11 Mar 2007 02:15 GMT
Adam spake thus:

> Hi everybody!  Would someone be able to help me with a darkroom
> question?  I've been "shooting pictures" for several decades but this
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> somehow looks as if it was shot (and even printed?) in the 1930s or
> 1940s... at least something that would fool a casual viewer at first.

While the replies so far have concentrated on such aspects of the print
as color (suggesting sepia or similar toning, which may be a good idea)
and things like "antiquing" the print to make it look old, I think
there's more to it than that.

Specifically, it's the *tonality* of a print that, to me, says it was
made back in the 30s or 40s. I'm not sure exactly *what* that tonality
is, but I can recognize it, and I think we all can recognize it when we
see it.

My guess would be a little lighter overall, with no murky shadows, and a
lot of clear tones in the midrange. Think the opposite of, say, a 60s
print, with its heavy blackness.

And of course it would be tack-sharp.

I wonder if Richard K. has any ideas on this, having seen and worked
with a lot of these images.

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Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
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Adam - 12 Mar 2007 01:57 GMT
>> What I'd like to do is make an enlargement
>> that somehow looks as if it was shot (and even printed?) in the 1930s
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> And of course it would be tack-sharp.

Thanks, David!  I spent a while this afternoon looking through a binder
of new prints made from 1930s-40s negatives (for sale at the FDR Visitor
Center), trying to figure out what they had in common.  Most were low
contrast, a few were high contrast.  In general the whites were a very
light grey and the blacks were a dark grey.  There wasn't much shadow
detail.  Most were sharp, but a few weren't.  I think one difference is
the range of greys -- modern images have all shades, but these had maybe
only five or six distinct shades of grey between the lightest and
darkest.  Does this sound plausible?  If so, is there an easy way to
simulate this?

Adam
pico - 12 Mar 2007 03:14 GMT
Does this have the look?
http://www.digoliardi.net/broken.htm
Adam - 12 Mar 2007 04:22 GMT
> Does this have the look?
> http://www.digoliardi.net/broken.htm

Thanks!  I'd say it does -- only maybe six or ten gradations between the
lightest and darkest greys, and not much shadow detail.  Is that an
actual photo from the 1940s or 1950s?  If it isn't, how'd you get it to
look like one?

Adam
pico - 12 Mar 2007 14:39 GMT
>> Does this have the look?
>> http://www.digoliardi.net/broken.htm
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> actual photo from the 1940s or 1950s?  If it isn't, how'd you get it to
> look like one?

Nikkor 105mm lens at F4, Tri-X at 320, FG-7 with 15% sodium sulphite
underdeveloped (I forgot how much).

1972. :)
Adam - 13 Mar 2007 03:12 GMT
>>> Does this have the look?
>>> http://www.digoliardi.net/broken.htm
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> 1972. :)

> Here's another. Maybe.
>
> http://www.digoliardi.net/warm.jpg

I think your first example was closer to what I'm looking for.  Your
second example seems to have a complete range of greys between its
extremes, which are admittedly low contrast.  OTOH I am admittedly new
to all this darkroom stuff, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about!

I tried something different today.  See my reply to John for the details
(to save bandwidth).  Thanks for your help with this!

Adam
pico - 12 Mar 2007 14:42 GMT
OH, it has a bit more shadow detail in the original print. It is printed
down a bit but works well when viewing IRL.

Someone else help me here - it was printed on Agfa Brovira #111. I think
that paper had a brightener in it to enhance reflectivity. I wonder if
that's one reason I have trouble scanning such prints.

'course, I'm not very good at scanning anyway...
John - 12 Mar 2007 13:33 GMT
>Does this have the look?
>http://www.digoliardi.net/broken.htm

Is that you John ?
pico - 12 Mar 2007 14:43 GMT
>> Does this have the look?
>> http://www.digoliardi.net/broken.htm
>
> Is that you John ?

Yes.
John - 12 Mar 2007 13:32 GMT
>Thanks, David!  I spent a while this afternoon looking through a binder
>of new prints made from 1930s-40s negatives (for sale at the FDR Visitor
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>darkest.  Does this sound plausible?  If so, is there an easy way to
>simulate this?

It's called "soot and chalk". No good clean whites but also no good
highlight details. Same for the shadows. You can get a similar look by
shooting that TX400 at EI64 and shortening development by about 50%.

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net
John - 12 Mar 2007 13:34 GMT
>Thanks, David!  I spent a while this afternoon looking through a binder
>of new prints made from 1930s-40s negatives (for sale at the FDR Visitor
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Adam

Also condensor enlargers were the norm then and they caused a lot of
this type of look.

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net
pico - 12 Mar 2007 17:08 GMT
Here's another. Maybe.

http://www.digoliardi.net/warm.jpg
David Nebenzahl - 13 Mar 2007 10:13 GMT
Adam spake thus:

> Hi everybody!  Would someone be able to help me with a darkroom
> question?  I've been "shooting pictures" for several decades but this
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> that '30s/'40s "look"?  As I said, I'm a beginner in the darkroom, and
> my paper on hand is Ilford Multigrade IV RC De Luxe Pearl.

Adam, let me make a suggestion here. Rather than try any of the fancy,
esoteric solutions that people here have proposed (toning, etc.), why
don't you just do the following, which you can do with what you already
have: make a series of prints from your shot, using your RC paper, at
various contrasts and of varying density. (You do have access to a set
of contrast filters, don't you? If not, they're inexpensive.) For each
contrast grade, make a set of prints ranging from light to dark.

Be sure to mark each print with the contrast grade and exposure data.
When they're dry, you can spread them out and see if any of them have
that "30s-40s" look you're after.

It won't cost you very much, and you'll probably learn more about
darkroom technique than you bargained for.

Signature

Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

Adam - 15 Mar 2007 02:54 GMT
>> What I'd like to do is make an enlargement that somehow looks
>> as if it was shot (and even printed?) in the 1930s or 1940s
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of contrast filters, don't you? If not, they're inexpensive.) For each
> contrast grade, make a set of prints ranging from light to dark.

Thanks, David!  That's certainly within my capabilities at this point.
We already learned about contrast filters.  In fact, on the negative in
question, I tried a #2 filter and the instructor thought it was great,
then I tried a #1 filter and I thought it looked more "40s-ish" that way
but the instructor didn't like it.

> Be sure to mark each print with the contrast grade and exposure data.
> When they're dry, you can spread them out and see if any of them have
> that "30s-40s" look you're after.

By the time Spring Break is over, I'll have enough paper to do that.
The instructor told us to buy one box of 100 sheets, but so far the
class has only met six times (out of 14 or 15) and I only have about 15
sheets left.  An order from B&H is en route as I write this.

> It won't cost you very much, and you'll probably learn more about
> darkroom technique than you bargained for.

Thanks!  It sounds like a very workable and educational idea!

Adam