 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| PhotoKB HomeDiscussion Groups Digital Photography Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot CamerasFilm Photography 35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther EquipmentPhoto Technique Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique GeneralGeneral Photo Topics General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK PhotographyDirectoryPhoto Clubs |
Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / September 2006chemicals for infrequent use
I'm getting back into darkroom work after many years, because my 13 year old daughter is interested. I don't think we will be using the darkroom more than 4-5 times a month (two rolls of film and/or maybe 10 8x10 prints each time). We're using Ilford film. I'm interested in what chemicals will be economical for such infrequent use. I'm not worried about subtle differences in results at this point. I have 8x10 and 11x14 trays but I didn't keep my old chemical bottles, so I have the chance to start fresh and buy bottles of any size. I don't mind mixing powdered chemicals if that will be more economical, or decanting developer into smaller bottles, but generally I want to keep it fairly simple. I'm in a small town so will be buying mail order, probably even the bottles. So I would like to figure it out in advance and buy maybe 6 months worth. So my question is, if you were starting fresh for infrequent use, which chemicals would you buy in which sizes, and which size bottles would you want to have for storage between uses. Pam In general, use liquid concentrates if your use is infrequent. I do the same thing for the same reason (I use my darkroom a couple times a month). I use Kodak HC-110 film developer directly from concentrate simply because it keeps forever. See http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110 more more info on mixing film developer directly from concentrate. HC-110 isn't the best developer in the world. I got much nicer negatives with Kodak Xtol. However Xtol goes bad. HC-110 is ok though, and like you said, if you don't care about subtle differences, it is definitely fine and is the way to go for infrequent use. Likewise, I mix small batches of paper developer directly from a liquid concentrate instead of mixing a large batch from a powder packet. I use Kodak Polymax T. This is better than mixing up a 1-gallon batch of Dektol that then goes bad. With Polymax T, I can just mix up a small 500 ml batch of paper developer (good for 8x10) and then pour it out the drain when I am done for the night (actually I'll keep it around in case I go back into the darkroom within the next week or so). I never mix more than 1L at a time. Usually 500ml of developer and fixer is good for 8x10 prints. The developers are the chemicals that tend to go bad. You won't have as much problem with Fixer. I like Sprint's fixer because it keeps, is low-odor, and works well. Hypo clear also goes bad with time, but I avoid its use. I don't use it for film or RC prints. Heck, I don't bother using stop bath either. Just developer and fix. Have fun! Even in the world of digital photography, I believe the darkroom experience is rewarding and valuable. In fact knowing the traditional darkroom methods has made my Photoshop skills better too! --Mike > I'm getting back into darkroom work after many years, because my 13 year > old daughter is interested. I don't think we will be using the darkroom [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Pam [---] >HC-110 isn't the best developer in the world. I got much nicer negatives >with Kodak Xtol. However Xtol goes bad. Ilford's DD-X is also a liquid developer, and produces results which I find much better than HC-110. It doesn't go bad. >>HC-110 isn't the best developer in the world. I got much nicer negatives >>with Kodak Xtol. However Xtol goes bad. > > Ilford's DD-X is also a liquid developer, and produces results which I > find much better than HC-110. It doesn't go bad. It does go bad. I have old DD-X...yes, it develops, but it produces golf-ball sized grain. Others besides me have noticed that this developer gets grainer with age. >>>HC-110 isn't the best developer in the world. I got much nicer negatives >>>with Kodak Xtol. However Xtol goes bad. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >golf-ball sized grain. Others besides me have noticed that this developer >gets grainer with age. I reused your terminology, when I shouldn't have. Of course DD-X goes bad, insofar as, like all developers, it oxidises over time. However, this is quite different to the "sudden death" syndrome of Xtol, which is what I assumed you were referring to when you wrote "goes bad". >>>>HC-110 isn't the best developer in the world. I got much nicer negatives >>>>with Kodak Xtol. However Xtol goes bad. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > this is quite different to the "sudden death" syndrome of Xtol, which > is what I assumed you were referring to when you wrote "goes bad". Right. But if I recall, you typically miss DD-X 1:4 or 1:2. Sure, it is probably good for a year or so. But HC-110 concentrate lasts for several years. I guess with DD-X, you will end up going through a bottle rather quickly and it is expensive. > In general, use liquid concentrates if your use is infrequent. I do the > same thing for the same reason (I use my darkroom a couple times a [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > --Mike Very helpful, thank you. Instead of hypo clear you use a longer washing time? I can see using water instead of a stop bath with paper, but with film do you rinse with water or just pour out the developer and pour in the fixer? I would think if you did that you would have to then discard the fixer because it would lose its acidity too much. You say you save diluted paper developer if you are going to use it again within a week. I gather you save diluted fixer for longer? It sounds like I might only need to buy 3 bottles to store diluted chemicals--paper developer, film fixer and paper fixer. And maybe another for stop bath if I want to use it with film--Adorama has an own-brand liquid concentrate that is very cheap. Pam > Very helpful, thank you. Instead of hypo clear you use a longer washing > time? I can see using water instead of a stop bath with paper, but with > film do you rinse with water or just pour out the developer and pour in > the fixer? I would think if you did that you would have to then discard > the fixer because it would lose its acidity too much. I use a water stop both for both film and paper. However I don't recommend using water as a stop for prints unless you use the "single tray method". In this method, instead of having a seperate tray for developer, stop, and fix, I use a single tray and pour the chemicals in and out. Thus after I pour the developer out of the tray, I quickly rinse the print in running water before pouring in the fixer. I really like the "single tray" method because for many of my darkroom sessions I just make a few prints. Less cleanup. If I plan on making lots of prints, then I will set up the row of trays and move prints between trays. > You say you save diluted paper developer if you are going to use it > again within a week. I gather you save diluted fixer for longer? Definitely. For film, I keep reusing the fixer until it takes to long to clear. Every few rolls I use the cut-off snippet of film leader and put it in the fixer. If it takes more than 5 minutes to clear, I throw away the fix. For paper fixer, I use a "fixer test". You put a drop in the bottle...if it turns white, the fixer is saturated. An alternative way is just to keep track of the # of 8x10 prints fixed. Doesn't have to be exact. Sometimes I use a magic marker to tally this on the side of the bottle. > It > sounds like I might only need to buy 3 bottles to store diluted > chemicals--paper developer, film fixer and paper fixer. And maybe > another for stop bath if I want to use it with film--Adorama has an > own-brand liquid concentrate that is very cheap. Yup! Also I use old gatorade bottles and other beverate bottles. But to be safe, you might just want to order a few bottles from Adorama. Regarding film developer-- if you use HC-110, rate ISO 400 film at 320. If you can't override the ISO setting on your camera, then maybe you should take Andrew's suggestion and use DD-X instead. With DD-X, you typically get full film speed such that an ISO 400 film is really 400. It is a nice developer...just a little pricey for me. > I use a water stop both for both film and paper. However I don't > recommend using water as a stop for prints unless you use the "single tray [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > prints. Less cleanup. If I plan on making lots of prints, then I will > set up the row of trays and move prints between trays. To me the pouring sounds like more trouble that cleaning two more trays, and our running water will be in the next room anyway. But I like the thought that you have found a way of setting up to make just a few prints at a time without it seeming like too much trouble. The teacher of the B&W course my daughter and I are taking at the local community college is using a water stop bath for paper--his trick is that when he takes a piece of paper out of the fixer he rinses it briefly in the water stop tray before putting it in the washer. That way the water stop becomes somewhat acid and has more stopping effect. Pam >RE: pam in sc wrote: > > To me the pouring sounds like more trouble that cleaning two more trays, I have for a few years used the single tray method. I use the method in conjunction with one-shot chemistry. Minimal solution volumes at more than the usual dilutions are used. After one use the chemistry goes down the drain. There are several advantages to single tray one-shot processing. One is there being no need for a stop. A second, and very much a Big advantage, A single very dilute fix delivers archival results. For holding and for use when employing the two tray wash method a second tray will be needed. Dan > I have for a few years used the single tray method. I use the method > in conjunction with one-shot chemistry. Minimal solution volumes at > more than the usual dilutions are used. After one use the chemistry [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > For holding and for use when employing the two tray wash method > a second tray will be needed. Dan How dilute? Does the time increase with the dilution in a simple arithmetic manner (double the dilution double the time)? Pam > > I have for a few years used the single tray method. I use the method > > in conjunction with one-shot chemistry. Minimal solution volumes at [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Pam The way I use chemistry is very similar to rotary processing. Are you familiar with that method? Save the chemistry for the next film or print or use it one-shot are the options, rotary or single tray. I prefer one-shot so the chemistry must be more dilute than usual if good milage might be expected. My usual minimal volumes are 4oz and 8oz of solution, 5x7 and 8x10. I pre-wet when FB paper is processed. Were I to use Dektol I'd likely start with a 1:7 dilution and process 5 minutes. Greater dilutions do require more time in the developer. Dektol times run about 1 minute at a 1:1 dilution. At 1:3 and 1:7 the times, with doubling, would be 2 and 4 minutes. Although the developer, and fixer for that matter, are quite dilute, they are fresh. So, the dilutions are in effect not so great as they might seem at first glance. BTW, I compound all my own chemistry and store concentrates and stock solutions in various size amber glass Boston Rounds equiped with Polyseal or Polycone caps. Dan > My usual minimal volumes are 4oz and 8oz of solution, 5x7 and >8x10. Contact printing ? == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net > > My usual minimal volumes are 4oz and 8oz of solution, 5x7 and > >8x10. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Photographer & Webmaster > Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net Enlargements from 120. Dan > How dilute? Does the time increase with the dilution in a simple > arithmetic manner (double the dilution double the time)? > > Pam I should expand on my previous post. For ease in working with minimal solution volumes I use flat bottom Cesco trays, bare hands, and a some what special constant agitation technique. A plus for minimal solution volumes; hardly ever more than a few drops are spilt. Dan >To me the pouring sounds like more trouble that cleaning two more trays, This has always been my contention as well. Might be OK for 1~5 small prints but I use 14X17 trays and print 20~60 prints per session. >The teacher of the B&W course my daughter and I are taking at the local >community college is using a water stop bath for paper--his trick is >that when he takes a piece of paper out of the fixer he rinses it >briefly in the water stop tray before putting it in the washer. That >way the water stop becomes somewhat acid and has more stopping effect. Only if he's using an acidic fixer. Not all fixers are acidic. An example of an alkaline fixer would be Photographers Formulary TF-4 Archival Rapid Fixer. == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net > Very helpful, thank you. Instead of hypo clear you use a longer washing > time? I use hypo clear when making Fiber-based prints. In my opinion, hypo clear isn't all that necessary for film and RC prints. I wash film and RC prints for about 10 minutes. If you are worried about negatives not lasting 30+ years or if you really want to save water, then you can give yourself some piece of mind and use hypo clear. >> Very helpful, thank you. Instead of hypo clear you use a >> longer washing [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > of mind and use > hypo clear. A sulfite wash aid like Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent reduces film wash time from 30 minutes to 5 minutes and allows the use of colder water. For fiber based prints the wash time is reduced from 2 hours for double weight paper to about 20 minutes. Its not expensive and conserves water. Because RC paper washes so rapidly (4 minutes typical) no wash aid is necessary. Also, wash aid adjusts the pH of the emulsion to the point where washing is most rapid despite the use of acid fixing baths. The most economical method of fixing is to use two successive baths and fix for half the total time in each. The capacity for archival fixing of a two bath system is about 10 times that of a single bath. The best method of testing for fixing is to use a Sodium Sulfide test solution. If the film or print is well washed before testing a 1:9 dilution of Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner will also work. The solution will tone any remaining unfixed halide leaving a yellow or brown stain if fixing is not complete. The solution can be used on a clear area of the film outside of the image area but for paper its suggested that a scrap of the paper be processed along with the prints and tested. The Potassium Iodide test for fixer will give an indication of excessive dissolved silver but the commercially available test solutions may not give an indication until there is too much silver for complete fixing. This is the stuff that leaves a cream colored cloud in the fixer sample. As far as long lasting chemicals, its difficult to suggest anything because there is always some compromise and no chemicals last forever. Both Kodak HC-110 and Rodinal (which is again available) have very long shelf life but are not optimum developers. Most mixed developers have a shelf life of about 6 months although I've had good results from D-76 which was a year old (I don't recommend this). Print developers tend to be shorter lived than film developers, perhaps due to the higher pH and lower sulfite content. Concentrates generally have much longer lives than working solutions. One way to get longer life from developer where only small quantities are to be used is to store the stock solution in several small containers each of which is filled right to the top and sealed. Glass is better than any of the plastics for this, all of the plastics are somewhat permeable to air. The containers do not have to be brown if they are kept away from intense light. Ammonium thiosulfate fixer (Rapid fixer) has a greater capacity for archival fixing than Sodium thiosulfate fixer, particularly for modern film and paper which tends to have a large Silver Iodide content, however, its shelf life is no longer. The use of non-hardening fixers is recommended for modern materials which generally have much harder emulsions than those of 50 years ago. If you have problems with frilling or other signs of emulsion softening then use the hardener. I recommend the use of a wetting agent like Kodak Photo-Flo as a last rinse before drying. I use it at half strength with the addition of about 30ml of Isopropyl rubbing alcohol per liter of rinse. This improves the wetting action. Film treated in this does not need to be squeegeed with the attendant risk of scratching. Wetting agent is not necessary for paper.  Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com pam in sc spake thus: > Very helpful, thank you. Instead of hypo clear you use a longer washing > time? I can see using water instead of a stop bath with paper, but with > film do you rinse with water or just pour out the developer and pour in > the fixer? Just one small detail: you can use vinegar (white) for stop bath as I do; dilute 1:3 or 1:4. Not necessarily cheaper than photographic stop bath, but you can get it at any grocery store. SignatureNapoleon won the battle of Waterloo. The German Wehrmacht won World War II. The United States won in Vietnam, and the Soviets in Afghanistan. The Zealots won against the Romans, and Ehud Olmert won the Second Lebanon War. - Uri Avnery, Israeli peace activist (http://counterpunch.org/avnery09022006.html) >> Very helpful, thank you. Instead of hypo clear you use a longer washing >> time? I can see using water instead of a stop bath with paper, but with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > do; dilute 1:3 or 1:4. Not necessarily cheaper than photographic stop > bath, but you can get it at any grocery store. Vinegar stains some FB paper. >>>Very helpful, thank you. Instead of hypo clear you use a longer washing >>>time? I can see using water instead of a stop bath with paper, but with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Vinegar stains some FB paper. But is safe for film? Pam pam in sc spake thus: >>>> Very helpful, thank you. Instead of hypo clear you use a longer >>>> washing time? I can see using water instead of a stop bath with [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > But is safe for film? Safe for film *and* paper. White vinegar will not stain anything, from my experience. Where has someone had problems with staining? First I've ever heard of this. SignatureNapoleon won the battle of Waterloo. The German Wehrmacht won World War II. The United States won in Vietnam, and the Soviets in Afghanistan. The Zealots won against the Romans, and Ehud Olmert won the Second Lebanon War. - Uri Avnery, Israeli peace activist (http://counterpunch.org/avnery09022006.html) >> But is safe for film? > > Safe for film *and* paper. White vinegar will not stain anything, from > my experience. Where has someone had problems with staining? First I've > ever heard of this. White vinegar stained Kodak Polymax FB paper. I reproduced it. Made 2 prints-- stopped one with vinegar and one with water. The one with vinegar had some weird mottling. Maybe the white vinegar I bought wasn't as pure. I read the same thing somewhere else-- maybe apug.org. I don't recall. >>>>Very helpful, thank you. Instead of hypo clear you use >>>>a longer washing time? I can see using water instead of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Pam Works fine. Acetic acid. See my previous post for the kind to get. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com >>> Very helpful, thank you. Instead of hypo clear you use >>> a longer washing [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Vinegar stains some FB paper. Depends on the type of vinegar. Brown vinegar will certainly stain but distilled vinegar (water white) will not. Generally, vinegar is around 5% Acetic acid. For a stop bath it should be diluted about half and half with water. The use of vinegar in place of Acetic acid was widely practiced during WW-2 because Acetic acid was a stratigic material and in short supply so there are many formulas for its use in stop baths, fixing baths, etc. Depending on where one is the cheapest way of obtaining stop bath is probably to buy Glacial Acetic Acid. This is a concentrated form called "glacial" becase it will freeze at low room temperatures. Glacial is diluted 3 parts acid to 8 parts water to make 28%, the strength most often specified for making up photographic solutions. Because of haz-mat shipping charges Glacial may be quite expensive in some places but the chemical itself is cheap. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com > Depends on the type of vinegar. Brown vinegar will >certainly stain.... Hmmm, I'm wondering if wine vinegar would add a nice boket to the image ? ;>) == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net September 26, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, I'd just like to point out that it's quite possible to do entirely without acid (acetic or otherwise) in a normal darkroom with no specialized processes. If getting acetic acid is a problem, it can be eliminated. And, if storing chemicals between uses is the issue, whether it's short or long term, there is no need to store acetic acid, especially not concentrated acetic acid. regards, --le ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. website: www.heylloyd.com telephone: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com ________________________________ -- >September 26, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >acetic acid, especially not concentrated >acetic acid. Especially when you can use plain white vinegar from the kitchen if you like ;>) I've essentially concluded that the need for a stop bath during film processing is probably limited to short processing times around the 5~7 minutes. As I'm using D-23 1:1, I don't really need to worry about that ;>) == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net John spake thus: >> Depends on the type of vinegar. Brown vinegar will >>certainly stain.... > > Hmmm, I'm wondering if wine vinegar would add a nice boket to the > image ? ;>) What is that--a combination of "bouquet" and "bokeh"? SignatureSave the Planet Kill Yourself - motto of the Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/) >> Hmmm, I'm wondering if wine vinegar would add a nice boket to the >> image ? ;>) > >What is that--a combination of "bouquet" and "bokeh"? Exactly !!! ;>) == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net Hi, I am rather surprised to hear that white vinegar is available in grocery stores in the US. In Canada, we put white vinegar and salt on our french fries. I swear, it is impossible to get white vinegar for your fries in a restaurant in the USA. We go to New every couple of years, SanDiego every year, eaten in Chicago, Boston, the Bay area, Seattle and eaten in various airport terminals when transferring planes between Montreal and San Diego. Try it, ask for white vineger next time you have fries.... There is no vinegar to be had. But you can get it in a grocery store. What is it used for? Can't be just photographers :) Now when we go to the States, we always bring a small bottle of vinegar. Cheers, Bogdan >> Depends on the type of vinegar. Brown vinegar will >>certainly stain.... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Photographer & Webmaster > Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net Signature__________________________________________________________________ Bogdan Karasek Montréal, Québec e-mail: bkarasek@videotron.ca Canada "Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen" "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence" Ludwig Wittgenstein ________________________________________________________________ >Try it, ask for white vineger next time you have fries.... > >There is no vinegar to be had. But you can get it in a grocery store. >What is it used for? Can't be just photographers :) I don't often eat fries anymore however there are a few restaurants here in the south that keep malt vinegar on the table for sprinkling on seafood. == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net Bogdan Karasek spake thus: > There is no vinegar to be had. But you can get it in a grocery store. > What is it used for? Can't be just photographers :) Salads, mainly. SignatureSave the Planet Kill Yourself - motto of the Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/) >Vinegar stains some FB paper. But it tastes good on chips ! Actually I've never had this problem. Any idea what might be the cause ? == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net >Adorama has an >own-brand liquid concentrate that is very cheap. You might also look at Freestyle at : http://www.freestylephoto.biz/e_main.php == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net > we will be using the darkroom [~] 4-5 times a month (two rolls of film > and/or maybe 10 8x10 prints each time). > I'm interested in what chemicals will be economical for such infrequent > use. I'm not worried about subtle differences in results at this point. That isn't really infrequent use, at least not in my book. I don't take any special steps to use long-life chemicals and I find they don't go off before I have used them up. I use Dektol, D-76 and Microdol-X from powder and rapid fixer from Arista/ Freestyle. I have bought some Freestyle journeyman paper and film developers to try after the Dektol and D-76 are used up. I find Freestyle's chemicals to be very good and very cheap. They sell a 1:9 concentrates of Dektol/Polymax[?] and D-76[?] at reasonable prices. Their rapid fixer is the cheapest I have found and ammonium thiosulfate == ammonium thiosulfate == ammonium thiosulfate. http://www.freestylephoto.biz/ In general the liquid concentrates last longer than self-mixed stock solution from powder. But unused powder chemicals have the longest life. I keep packs of powder chemicals on hand as emergency reserves - like having canned food in the kitchen cupboard. For storage I use Nalgene bottles, purchase them on ebay. TTH, 1 liter plastic pop bottles are as good as anything for storing liquid -- quite gas-tight -- can be squeezed slightly so there is no gas in the stock/ storage bottles -- only problem is the narrow mouth. Plastic (PET) jug-style vodka bottles are excellent and don't need but a light rinse after the vodka is gone and 1.75 liters is a good size for an 11x14 tray's worth of working chemical. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com pam in sc a écrit : > I'm getting back into darkroom work after many years, because my 13 year > old daughter is interested. I don't think we will be using the darkroom [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Pam The developers are the most sensible to aging but the way you store them has a big influence on their shelf life. For films, I use mostly Xtol with following storage mode (cut/paste from a previous post): ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Regarding Xtol shelf life, I use the second method described on this page: http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/e6.htm#Chemicals_conservation Nothing exceptional, I just try to minimize the contact between the solution and air/oxygen and light. The choice of the small bottles depends on the volume you need per film, in my case as I develop by rotation with a 1+1 dilution, I can use the minimal 100ml stock quantity per film (135-36, 120 or 8x10") so I opted for these 100ml small bottles, each one being a dose for one film. The method I use for Xtol is slightly different than the one described as I do not add demineralized water to complete the bottles but just use stock xtol instead. As I use it mainly in 1+1 dilution, I just fill the bottle again with water to make the final dilution. I do it this way because Xtol cost is pretty low and I do not need a very precise final quantity nor dilution, which is required in color work. My Xtol shelf life tests are not yet finished as it passed successfully the 4 years test last end of March and I've still some old bottles for further tests. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So, although Xtol is not reputed as having the best shelf-life, you can go very easily over one year of storage which is enough to use the 5-liters pack completely. And you have one of the best all-around developers. As paper developer, I use Agfa Neutol NE (there are various variations) in liquid form. The concentrate keeps well, but I usually discard the diluted developer at the end of the session. I'm not sure such developer is available easily as Agfa disappeared but their chemicals line have been maintained by the buyer. Anyway, there are many good paper developers around ... I use an acetic acid stop bath simply made of 15milliliters/liter of glacial acetic acid, a small bottle will last nearly forever ... Be cautious with the "glacial" form as it is concentrated and can cause burns, smell is severe too. You can find acetic acid at 28% which is less nasty, you need around 50ml for the same final dilution. If you prefer an odorless stop bath, then you can use citric acid at around 20grams/liter. These raw chemicals cost a lot less than the commercial products. For the fixer, there are mainly two families. I prefer the rapid form (using ammonium thiosulfate) for fiber paper instead of the classic one (sodium hyposulfite) as the rapid fixing prevents to much fixer going inside the paper which will result in long washing times. Said that, all commercial products are all very similar ... As Richard indicated, the two-baths method is preferred for fiber paper but, at the beginning, you may go resin-coated as it is simpler to work with, so a single bath, if you don't overuse it, is enough. I strongly suggest you use wash-aid as it reduces the washing time a lot, by half easily. I use a simple bath of sodium sulfite at 20grams/liter I dump at the end of the session. Sodium sulfite is cheap and quantities needed are low. I do not use the same stop bath/fixer/washaid for films and papers. Concentrations are different and films release chemicals I don't want in my paper, especially fiber. You probably need also a wetting agent for films. I use one containing a biocide (Tetenal Mirasol 2000) diluted in demineralized water as final rinse before letting it dry. Claudio Bonavolta http://www.bonavolta.ch >So, although Xtol is not reputed as having the best shelf-life, you can >go very easily over one year of storage Ahem ! == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net I have had success using recycled large wine bottles and the air removal system for wine preservation. The shelf life of most all of the chemicals improves significantly with little to no air during storage. While my wine preserver is a power driven appliance, I would think the hand pump one would be of benefit. It also looks rather turn of the century with all of the big glass bottles about. Nakita > I'm getting back into darkroom work after many years, because my 13 year > old daughter is interested. I don't think we will be using the darkroom [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Pam Hello, On the subject of wine bottles, there is another wine related storage method. Here in Quebec, you can buy wine in 4 litre boxes that have a bladder inside and a spigot that exits the box. The idea is that the wine keeps longer because there is no air. The Bag/Bladder collapses on itself as there is no Air. Once the wine is gone, open the box, take out the bladder, open the plastic spigot, rinse out thoroughly in hot water several times, and now you can pour you chemicals into the bladders and put them into the box. Stack nicely on a shelf also. Again, same principle. No air to cause oxidation. I make up three bladders of D-76 stock at a time, 3x4L= 12L and I'm good for the month. I just added a 2 gal photo lab container. It is white in colour, black Spigot. There is the lid on top but there is another one inside that floats on top of the developer. Reduced contact with air. For my Dektol, I have a similar container but 5 gallons. but then I use my darkroom 3-4 days a week. Cheers, Bogdan > I have had success using recycled large wine bottles and the air removal > system for wine preservation. The shelf life of most all of the chemicals [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> >>Pam Signature__________________________________________________________________ Bogdan Karasek Montréal, Québec e-mail: bkarasek@videotron.ca Canada "Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen" "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence" Ludwig Wittgenstein ________________________________________________________________ >So my question is, if you were starting fresh for infrequent use, which >chemicals would you buy in which sizes, and which size bottles would you >want to have for storage between uses. I'd order the following : 1 lb Metol 2lbs Hydroquinone 13lbs Sodium Sulfite 10lbs Sod. Carbonate 1lb Pot.Bromide 50lbs Sod. Thiosulfate (penta) Use and storing of dry chemicals takes significantly less space and is far more stable than use of liquid concentrates. Here are the formulas I use almost exclusively. Kodak's D-23 - Film Developer Water @ 125F 750.0ml Metol 7.5g Sod. Sulfite 100.0g Water to make 1.0L Kodak's D-72 - Print Developer Water @ 125F 750ml Metol 3.0g Sod. Sulfite 45.0g Hydroquinone 12.0g Sod. Carbonate 80.0g Pot. Bromide 2.0g Water to make 1.0L Dilute 1:1 ~ 1:2 prior to use. I personally prefer the 1:1 but the norm is to use the 1:2 dilution. Fixer Water @ 125F 750m Sod.Thiosulfate (penta) 250g Sod. Sulfite 50g Sod. Carbonate 5g Water to make 1.0L Wash Aid Water @ 125F 750m Sod. Sulfite 50g Water to make 1.0L Dilute 1:1 immediately prior to use. http://www.chemistrystore.com Sod. Sulfite, Sod. Carbonate, Sod.Thiosulfate http://www.artcraftchemicals.com Metol, Hydroquinone, Pot. Bromide I have taken to mixing most of my chemicals immediately prior to use. If I know that I'm going to be needing more soon, I can simply double the amount and store half for later. Note that you might also be able to purchase Arm & Hammer's Washing Soda at a supermarket near you. Unfortunately simple wash aids such as Borax and carbonate have fallen by the way as they aren't "new and improved". Along the same lines you might pick up a gallon of plain white vinegar for use as a stop bath. I think I paid $1.80/gallon at Sam's Club. If you find the odor objectionable then I suggest substituting Boric acid. Always use two-bath fixing and a final rinse in wash aid. -- Regards, John S. Douglas Legacy-photo.com Hi Pam, Our Silvergrain chemistry is designed for extended life, both in the tray and when stored in concentrated form. Concentrates will normally last two years or more, and working solutions can be stored for several weeks at a time in closed containers. Additionally, the products are ultra low in toxicity, and are unrivalled in terms of ECO-friendliness. Unlike other print developers, Tektol Standard and Tektol Neutral are completely free of hydroquinone and metol, the latter of which is a known allergen. Clearfix Alkaline Fixer is an acid-free fixer which allows for the fastest possible washing times. http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/silvergrain.html If you work out the volumes you will require, then you can purchase suitable plastic or amber glass storage containers. As these chemicals are supplied as liquid concentrates, it is easy to use them for one-shot use and you don't have to mix up a gallon of stock solution. I'd recommend buying some plastic HDPE white bottles which you can easily label with a Sharpie. These cost less than a dollar each and are available in a variety of sizes, probably the most useful for you would be a couple of quarts and a couple half gallons. --Jon Mided Digitaltruth Photo http://www.digitaltruth.com > ... are completely free of hydroquinone and metol, Hopefully you're not implying that they are toxic in the levels used in processing of photographic films. == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net >the latter of which is a known allergen. So is peanut butter. == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net > Our Silvergrain chemistry is designed for extended life, both in the > tray and when stored in concentrated form. Concentrates will normally [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/silvergrain.html Are they still considered hazardous material for air shipping? Thanks, Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 Fax ONLY: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ We can ship Silvergrain chemistry anywhere in the world by air; this is also true of most other photographic products, except those containing materials specifically restricted to ground shipment. The main difficulty of air shipping is the weight of liquid chemistry which often makes shipping costs prohibitive. People who suffer from skin allergies and react to metol are able to use the chemistry without risk of irritation, a benefit lacking from most other print developers. Additionally, our print developers allow for extended storage and tray life and can be used separately or in combination to produce a wide variety of image tone on most papers. The use of Clearfix Alkaline Fixer promotes faster washing and eliminates the use of acid in the darkroom. This is not a special system, it is simply an acid-free processing sequence which can be followed by anyone. Its been around since the beginning of photography, and was used by Ansel Adams and many other practitioners throughout history. Most people use an acid fixer (just because that is what is sold in the store), and are used to washing their prints for considerable amounts of time. By following our recommended archival sequence, prints have a total wet time of 5 minutes (RC paper), or 19 minutes (FB paper). Film is fixed and washed in 6-9 minutes. Speaking from personal experience, once you switch to alkaline processing, you will never switch back. --Jon Mided Digitaltruth Photo http://www.digitaltruth.com > We can ship Silvergrain chemistry anywhere in the world by air; this is > also true of most other photographic products, except those containing > materials specifically restricted to ground shipment. The main > difficulty of air shipping is the weight of liquid chemistry which > often makes shipping costs prohibitive. The usual way of shipping these things by air is using a tourist. You find a friend or relative who is coming here and ship it to them. They stuff it in their baggage. Almost all developers are considered hazardous for air shipment. Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 Fax ONLY: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ Air shipment restrictions are applied on a country-to-country basis. It is not correct to say that shoving chemicals in your suitcase is the primary method for export. The main developing agents found in most print and film developers are metol, phenidone and hydroquinone. None of these agents are normally restricted for air transport. Strong acid solutions (eg. acetic acid stop baths) or products containing explosive compounds (such as sodium sulfide) are the main photographic chemicals which are restricted to ground transport only. --Jon Mided Digitaltruth Photo http://www.digitaltruth.com > Air shipment restrictions are applied on a country-to-country basis. It > is not correct to say that shoving chemicals in your suitcase is the > primary method for export. I was refering to U.S. restrictions. After all, that is where you are selling the chemicals, isn't it? As for suitcases being the primary export method, it has nothing to do with what I said. Having a tourist bring things in TO Israel is a time honored tradition, due to the high cost of shipping, the low probability of it arriving, draconian customs officers, etc. This is compounded by the customs and tax excemptions are for MAIL only, things brought in by courier services, e.g. UPS, FEDEX, DHL, are charged the highest possible taxes plus clearing fees. So it may be down on the bottom of your list for EXPORT methods, but it is top of the list here for IMPORT. Many U.S. companies will NOT sell to people outside of the U.S., for example Aamazon's USED book store, or require the most expensive shipping method possible, for example Freestyle's requirment for FEDEX. Who wants to buy $50 worth of film and then pay $50 in shipping and 17% in VAT on the total, only to find out that if you bought more than two of any one item it must be for commercial use and have to fill out a customs declaration and pay a clearing fee. Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 Fax ONLY: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ I agree Geoffrey. Our products are shipped from the US to destinations worldwide, but we only ever use USPS mail, unless the volumes are very large. We do this for the exact reason you suggest - inbound duties associated with other carrier services (UPS, FedEx, DHL etc...) are astronomical. The reason I am clarifying this, off topic, is that many other businesses give mail order export a bad name because of their simple unwillingness to help customers who are far away and don't offer a lot of business. I don't know how many times I have been told that something cannot be shipped abroad because of such and such a restriction, which turns out not to be a legal restriction at all but just a corporate policy designed to eliminate all possibility of risk or complication. Sometimes there are reasons for this, but too often it is just laziness and lack of effort by the supplier. --Jon Mided Digitaltruth Photo http://www.digitaltruth.com > I agree Geoffrey. Our products are shipped from the US to destinations > worldwide, but we only ever use USPS mail, unless the volumes are very > large. We do this for the exact reason you suggest - inbound duties > associated with other carrier services (UPS, FedEx, DHL etc...) are > astronomical. The reason I am clarifying this, off topic, ..... Thanks, I appriciate it. Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 Fax ONLY: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ HDPE ??? like in white bottles below Bogdan > Hi Pam, > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Digitaltruth Photo > http://www.digitaltruth.com Signature__________________________________________________________________ Bogdan Karasek Montréal, Québec e-mail: bkarasek@videotron.ca Canada "Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen" "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence" Ludwig Wittgenstein ________________________________________________________________ >HDPE ??? like in white bottles below > >Bogdan HDPE works well however PET bottles are best and also extremely inexpensive. Nearly all soda is sold in PET bottles. == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.