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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / September 2006Dektol for film
I gave a 4x5 Graphic to a chap who's a bit poor. What's the recommended dilution of Dektol and Efke 25 film? Any clue? Would it even work half-bad? > What's the recommended dilution of Dektol and Efke 25 film? Any clue? With Super-XX [?] and print strength Dektol 1:2 I remember 1 1/2 minutes in a constantly rocking tray. Really thick negative. The grain could be seen in a contact print. The effect was rather nice, though, sort of soft-focusy-arty-farty. For Efke 25 I really don't know. Much less than a minute and I think getting even development may be a problem. If it were me I would try a water bath before the developer. Take a sheet, expose it, cut it into 1" strips and pull strips out of the developer at 30 second intervals and drop them in the stop.  SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com > I gave a 4x5 Graphic to a chap who's a bit poor. > > What's the recommended dilution of Dektol and Efke 25 film? Any clue? Would > it even work half-bad? Efke 25 and Dektol? The worst possible combination in history...another f.cking idiot. > Efke 25 and Dektol? The worst possible combination in > history...another f.cking idiot. Ech! I can smell your breath from here! I've got old what's his name filtered out of my computer do I have to do the same with everyone that wants to reply to his rants? If we ALL ignore him he'll go away. darkroommike > Ech! I can smell your breath from here! >>He who shall remain nameless opened his potty mouth and spoiled my evening. > > Efke 25 and Dektol? The worst possible combination in > > history...another f.cking idiot. > > Ech! I can smell your breath from here! That's because your in his lap. SignatureReality-Is finding that perfect picture and never looking back. www.gregblankphoto.com > > Efke 25 and Dektol? The worst possible combination in > > history...another f.cking idiot. > > Ech! I can smell your breath from here! No, I don't drink Dektol. You do. Idiot.... >>> Efke 25 and Dektol? The worst possible combination in >>> history...another f.cking idiot. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Idiot.... Must you two bring those hissy fits out into the open? SignatureReality-Is finding that perfect picture and never looking back. www.gregblankphoto.com > > I gave a 4x5 Graphic to a chap who's a bit poor. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Efke 25 and Dektol? The worst possible combination in history...another > f.cking idiot. I wouldn't go *that* far, but it's a common thread around here. You can, in theory, develop any silver halide emulsion in any developer. But would you want to? Some combinations work well and are considered standard, some unusual combinations have their uses, and some combinations are likely to work so poorly that there is little point in even trying them. This is one of them. Dektol is a print developer. Developing film in it will give rapid development, high contrast, and boulder-size grain. This is probably not what you want. Since nobody else wants it, nobody does it, and there are no published development times. Laura Halliday VE7LDH "Que les nuages soient notre Grid: CN89mg pied a terre..." ICBM: 49 16.05 N 122 56.92 W - Hospital/Shafte > Dektol is a print developer. Developing film in it will give > rapid development, high contrast, and boulder-size grain. > This is probably not what you want. Since nobody else > wants it, nobody does it, and there are no published > development times. At any dilution? > > Dektol is a print developer. Developing film in it will give > > rapid development, high contrast, and boulder-size grain. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > At any dilution? If you're that obsessed with Dektol, perhaps you should try it yourself? Then you would know. Laura Halliday VE7LDH "That's a totally illegal, Grid: CN89mg madcap scheme. I like it!" ICBM: 49 16.05 N 122 56.92 W - H. Pearce >>> Dektol is a print developer. Developing film in it will give >>> rapid development, high contrast, and boulder-size grain. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If you're that obsessed with Dektol, perhaps you > should try it yourself? Then you would know. You can simply write "I don't know". Try it. to quote: >>> Dektol is a print developer. Developing film in it will give >>> rapid development, high contrast, and boulder-size grain. >>> This is probably not what you want. Since nobody else >>> wants it, nobody does it, and there are no published >>> development times. There are a couple of good reasons other that the ones Laura already gave you: Film is cheap, finding the time to use it is not, why go down a path that we already know from past experience will not yield the results we are looking for to save a few cents per image. Especially do the research for something we know will not give the type of results WE seek. Developer is cheap, why not just buy a package of developer that will yield the results the results we seek, and for which time and temperatures are already published rather that mess about, press photographers used Dektol (probably D-72 actually) because it was fast, grain didn't matter, the images were reproduced using coarse half tone screens. If one is too poor to buy a gallon of D-76, too poor to make D-23 from scratch, one should not be burning film in a 4x5 camera. The one thing photographers never have enough of (other than new toys, er, equipment) is time. If you want answers to off the wall questions take the time to GOOGLE is yourself, ask intelligent questions and REMAIN POLITE. found this reference in 20 seconds: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=3539 darkroommike >>>> Dektol is a print developer. Developing film in it will give >>>> rapid development, high contrast, and boulder-size grain. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You can simply write "I don't know". Try it. > You can simply write "I don't know". Try it. You're right: I don't know. Why would I? I don't generally use Efke films, and prefer Ilford developer for my prints. Knowing how the materials work, I see no significant probability of your combination doing anything useful, or even anything interesting. I'm not even tempted to try it: I have my own stuff to play with, and am not interested in doing your darkroom research for you. I reiterate: if you're that curious, try it yourself. You may be on to something. Then again, you may not be. Laura Halliday VE7LDH "That's a totally illegal, Grid: CN89mg madcap scheme. I like it!" ICBM: 49 16.05 N 122 56.92 W - H. Pearce >> You can simply write "I don't know". Try it. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > You may be on to something. Then again, you may > not be. My second week in my homemade darkroom I reached for HC-110 and grabbed the Dektol by accident. A few minutes into the development process, I realized it. I continued 8 of the 9 minutes (FP-4+ in HC-110 B) and conceded I didn't know what I was doing. I stopped, fixed, et. al., and was surprised to find high-contrast, but useable, images. Grain wasn't too bad, though definitely exaggerated. Didn't Adams use Dektol (not necessarily Kodak branded) for film at one point? > >> You can simply write "I don't know". Try it. > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Didn't Adams use Dektol (not necessarily Kodak branded) for film at one > point? An application of Godwin's Photo Law: We know a photo discussion thread has reached its absolute nadir when Ansel Adams is mentioned. "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Ansel Adams approaches one." I did the Polymax-for-Tmax developer swap, basically similar, when given a roll of film by my sister's boss to develop. I no longer try to talk on the phone when doing anything that requires more than 10% concentration. I realized the error a minute or so into development, thought deeply for another minute, and pulled the film after one more. The negatives were a little "bullet proof" but actually printed just fine. David >>>You can simply write "I don't know". Try it. >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Didn't Adams use Dektol (not necessarily Kodak branded) for film at one > point? >> My second week in my homemade darkroom I reached for HC-110 and >> grabbed the Dektol by accident. A few minutes into the development [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> Didn't Adams use Dektol (not necessarily Kodak branded) for film at >> one point? If you look at the ingredients of what makes up most film developers and Dektol, there really isn't that much difference. D76 is actually quite close, but like most things the difference is in the details. Getting something usable isn't surprising at all. You might find you like what you see for some subjects. You also may be able to correct the contrast by using a lower grade paper ect and be just fine. > >> My second week in my homemade darkroom I reached for HC-110 and > >> grabbed the Dektol by accident. A few minutes into the development [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > you see for some subjects. You also may be able to correct the contrast > by using a lower grade paper ect and be just fine. What a f.cking moron. Dektol (D-72) has tons of alkali in it: 67.5 g of sodium carbonate! D-76 has 6 g of borax. This is an ENORMOUS difference. KODAK D-72 Neutral tone print developer, High contrast film developer Water, 125F/52C 500 ml Metol 3.1 g Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 45 g Hydroquinone 12 g Sodium Carbonate (anhydrous) 67.5 g Potassium Bromide 1.9 g Cold water to make 1L KODAK D-76 Film developer Water, 125F/52C 750 ml Metol 2 g Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 100 g Hydroquinone 5 g Borax (granular) 2 g Cold water to make 1L > What a f.cking moron. Dektol (D-72) has tons of alkali in it: 67.5 g > of sodium carbonate! D-76 has 6 g of borax. This is an ENORMOUS > difference. We used it for cold weather development with good success. It does have it's applications. Moron. > > What a f.cking moron. Dektol (D-72) has tons of alkali in it: 67.5 g > > of sodium carbonate! D-76 has 6 g of borax. This is an ENORMOUS > > difference. > > We used it for cold weather development with good success. It does have it's > applications. Moron. It's "its", not "it's", moron. "It's" is the contraction for IT IS."Its" is the possessive of IT. UC spake thus: >>>What a f.cking moron. Dektol (D-72) has tons of alkali in it: 67.5 g >>>of sodium carbonate! D-76 has 6 g of borax. This is an ENORMOUS [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > "It's" is the contraction for IT IS."Its" is the possessive of IT. And I'm drinking to your contraction of syphillis. SignatureNapoleon won the battle of Waterloo. The German Wehrmacht won World War II. The United States won in Vietnam, and the Soviets in Afghanistan. The Zealots won against the Romans, and Ehud Olmert won the Second Lebanon War. - Uri Avnery, Israeli peace activist (http://counterpunch.org/avnery09022006.html) >> If you look at the ingredients in most film developers and >> Dektol, there really isn't that much difference. D76 is actually quite [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Borax (granular) 2 g > Cold water to make 1L You may use Dektol = D72 for high contrast work (with lith film for example). I would use it diluted 1:3 and process some 25 ISO film. There are other similar developers. In Camera, Vol.35, Oct/Nov 1968 Patrick Dignan shows a table with 12 film developers and 12 paper developers. The last paper developer is Gevaert G251 - Universal developer for film and paper: Water at 125F 500 ml Sodium sulphite (anh.) 25 g Hydroquinone 6 g Borax (gran.) none Sodium carbonate (mono.)45 g Potassium bromide 1 g Cold water to 1 litre Development times 1 to 2.5 minutes. On page 421 of "the Compact Photo-Lab-index", 1977 there is Kodak's D-19 high contrast developer for films and plates: Water at 125F 500 ml Metol 2 g Sodium sulphite (anh.) 90 g Hydroquinone 8 g Sodium carbonate (mono.)52.5 g Potassium bromide 5 g Cold water to 1 litre Development times are not stated, but i seem to recall 3 to 5 minutes. One just has to experiment in an objective manner using standardised techniques, record the processing steps, take density measurements, observe the final grain, etc. SignatureRegards / JCH > Gevaert G251 - Universal developer for film and paper: Didn't Kodak have a "Universal MQ Developer" supplied in their "Tri-Chem" packs. There was also a tablet form of MQ developer, came in a tube like cough lozenges. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com > I gave a 4x5 Graphic to a chap who's a bit poor. > > What's the recommended dilution of Dektol and Efke 25 film? Any clue? Would > it even work half-bad? Read: http://jerryo.com/filmDevTest.htm My advice to you is if you can, buy him a bottle of HC-110. IMHO the best developer is FG-7, but may be difficult to get. Look at: http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/ Dilution H, listed by Covington, but not an offical dilution, would be "just right" for his work. Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 Fax ONLY: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ > My advice to you is if you can, buy him a bottle of HC-110. IMHO the > best developer is FG-7, but may be difficult to get. I have two unopened gallon bottles of FG-7! Been a Rodinal and D76 person. I will definitely look into the FG-7. Thanks for that, Geoffrey. : I gave a 4x5 Graphic to a chap who's a bit poor. : What's the recommended dilution of Dektol and Efke 25 film? Any clue? Would : it even work half-bad? Can't recommend using Dektol to develop film. I've been developing Efke-25 with TFX-2 that I get from photographers formulary. Signature------------------- Keep working millions on welfare depend on you j spake thus: > I gave a 4x5 Graphic to a chap who's a bit poor. > > What's the recommended dilution of Dektol and Efke 25 film? Any clue? Would > it even work half-bad? Sorry this isn't a post with the actual answer to your question (like all the other damn replies so far here, except maybe one), but I'm curious: what has being a "bit poor" got to do with it? Is he so poor he can only use the Dektol he already has mixed up, or something? Developer doesn't cost that much, last I checked. But apropos another reply here, probably the best way to find out is to just try it. (Too lazy, meself.) If it develops as fast as folks here say it does, then it would probably work better diluted in half again. SignatureNapoleon won the battle of Waterloo. The German Wehrmacht won World War II. The United States won in Vietnam, and the Soviets in Afghanistan. The Zealots won against the Romans, and Ehud Olmert won the Second Lebanon War. - Uri Avnery, Israeli peace activist (http://counterpunch.org/avnery09022006.html) > Sorry this isn't a post with the actual answer to your question (like > all the other damn replies so far here, except maybe one), but I'm > curious: what has being a "bit poor" got to do with it? Is he so poor he > can only use the Dektol he already has mixed up, or something? Developer > doesn't cost that much, last I checked. It simply may be no longer available. About two months ago my wife went to Tel Aviv to the largest camera store and bought the last 100 foot roll of T-Max 400 (three months out of date), the last 10 reloadable casettes and the last bottle of HC-110 they had. I asked her a few weeks ago to see if she could get me more cassettes and more HC-110, and she said that they told her it was unlikely they would get any more. Since developer is now considered a hazardous material for air shipping, if you don't have any to buy, you can't pay high prices for air freight/mail, or ask a relative or tourist to bring you a bottle. Your only choice is to send it via surface (boat) shipping, and they may not accept it either. If they do, it's a three months wait, costs as much to ship it as the orginal product and if it has a hazmat sticker on it, be a hassle in customs. Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 Fax ONLY: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ I don't see the problem with cassettes and film, maybe the store is just getting out of the business with the lemming-like migration to digital (and using another reason for an excuse to abandon their long time customers--sorry it's the government, ya know), processing chemicals may be another issue but powder mixes like D-76 and Dektol pose a much lower hazard than liquid concentrates so you may just have to switch. Or compound your own. darkroommike >> Sorry this isn't a post with the actual answer to your question (like >> all the other damn replies so far here, except maybe one), but I'm [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Geoff. > I don't see the problem with cassettes and film, maybe the store is just > getting out of the business with the lemming-like migration to digital > (and using another reason for an excuse to abandon their long time > customers--sorry it's the government, ya know), I don't think they have any long term customers anyway. 10 years ago when I moved here cameras and film only were taxed 140%, so there never was a big amateur photographic community here. A Nikon F/F2/F3 cost the average person more than a month's net income. Most of the used film cameras I see for sale are from people who moved here from the U.S. and brought one in tax free. They sit forever on the consignment shelves of camera stores that take them in trade for digital cameras. Film and cameras (both digital and film) are taxed at 17% now and people who have not "gone digital" use color film. Even so, the one hour labs have become one hour film and digital print labs. Professionals go the way the market demands. The market demand is for color prints, now mostly digital, even for black and white newspaper ads. > processing chemicals may > be another issue but powder mixes like D-76 and Dektol pose a much lower > hazard than liquid concentrates so you may just have to switch. Or > compound your own. Powder or liquid they are still considered hazardous materials for air shipment, so they have to take a boat. About the only developer I can get the supplies for are one made from generic tylenol. Most generic tylenol is made here anyway, so it's easy to find, but not cheap. Sodium hydroxide I found from an amateur soap maker, but getting sodium sulfite was impossible. Getting supplies to make my own from component chemicals come down to shipping it by boat. Unless I'm willing to invest the money and space in bringing in a big shipment and fighting the customs people (one or two is personal, three or more MUST be for business), if I still use a film camera in 5 years, it will be with C-41 process film. If I'm lucky someone will get a shipment of HC-110 and I'll have enough money to buy a handful of bottles. I hope you are in a better situation than I am, but from what I see, the U.S. is not that far behind. Large camera stores like B&H, etc will stop selling film and paper as they stop being made (such as Kodak, Agfa, Konica), and demand for the remaining products drops. Specialty retailers like Freestyle, J&C, etc will hang on longer, but eventualy Freestyle will be almost all digital with a page or two of silver based products. I just received a shipment of film from Freestyle that someone was kind enough to bring in from the U.S., the shipping would have been more than the film. In it was a catalog marked "spring 2006". About 1/4 the products listed no longer are made. Such as Kodak paper, some of the Kodak films, Agfa film, paper and chemicals (though some chemicals are coming back), Konica film, Konica-Minolta cameras, and so on. A sad and sobering thought. From the looks of things here, largest manufacturer in terms of units sold of reloadable film cameras will be Holga. :-( Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 Fax ONLY: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ Ouch, tough situation, but sodium sulfite is sold both in the food industry (yuck) and swimming pool supplies (sulfite treatment is used to lower chlorine concentration in pools so look for dechlorinators). Hang in there. darkroommike >> I don't see the problem with cassettes and film, maybe the store is just >> getting out of the business with the lemming-like migration to digital [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > Geoff. > I gave a 4x5 Graphic to a chap who's a bit poor. > > What's the recommended dilution of Dektol and Efke 25 film? Any clue? Would > it even work half-bad? Dektol is a really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really strong developer. Efke 25 requires a really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really softt-working developer. Get it now, fuckface? > Get it now, fuckface? You are in dire need of an ass-kicking, UC. What's going on? Lose your job? > > Get it now, fuckface? > > You are in dire need of an ass-kicking, UC. What's going on? Lose your job? Nope. Just sick of idiots/photographers. (There is no difference.) >> You are in dire need of an ass-kicking, UC. What's going on? Lose your >> job? > > Nope. Just sick of idiots/photographers. (There is no difference.) I truly understand, UC. Youhave not made a decent picture for what, thirty years? So that makes you a nonphotographer. I can understand how a nonpractitioner in the throes of denial and possibly addiction can complain. Pity. j spake thus: >>>You are in dire need of an ass-kicking, UC. What's going on? Lose your >>>job? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > nonpractitioner in the throes of denial and possibly addiction can complain. > Pity. But wait, how can you say that? Don't forget Pancake Boy--sh.t, what was that picture called? Flapjack Head? Short Stack Kid? Aunt Jemima Homie? You know the one. SignatureNapoleon won the battle of Waterloo. The German Wehrmacht won World War II. The United States won in Vietnam, and the Soviets in Afghanistan. The Zealots won against the Romans, and Ehud Olmert won the Second Lebanon War. - Uri Avnery, Israeli peace activist (http://counterpunch.org/avnery09022006.html) > j spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > that picture called? Flapjack Head? Short Stack Kid? Aunt Jemima Homie? > You know the one. Yes, I do. Made at age 18. > -- > Napoleon won the battle of Waterloo. The German Wehrmacht won World War [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > - Uri Avnery, Israeli peace activist > (http://counterpunch.org/avnery09022006.html) UC spake thus: >>j spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Yes, I do. Made at age 18. We rest our case. Case closed. Next! SignatureNapoleon won the battle of Waterloo. The German Wehrmacht won World War II. The United States won in Vietnam, and the Soviets in Afghanistan. The Zealots won against the Romans, and Ehud Olmert won the Second Lebanon War. - Uri Avnery, Israeli peace activist (http://counterpunch.org/avnery09022006.html) > Would it even work half-bad? Problem with Dektol is it's a CARBONATED hydroquinone plus metol developer. As such it's formulated to build contrast and do it quickly. To use it as a D76 type the ph must be lowered. I suggest bicarbonate of soda or even sodium bisulfite be added to the working strength. Amount per roll, try a table spoon and see what happens. If possible try to ball park the ph. Dan |
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