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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / June 2006Kodak Elon (Metol) discontinued??
June 10, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, I'm running low on my stock of Metol (I use the Kodak version called Elon, which could be ordered from the photo store in one pound containers.) Kodak CAT 146 3025. According to the knowledgeable folks at 1-800-GO-KODAK, all that black and white stuff has been discontinued. So, until I'm discontinued, does anyone know where to get Metol?? An easy source in Canada would be nice... Thank you very much and regards, --le ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. website: www.heylloyd.com telephone: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com ________________________________ Try here: http://www.jdphotochem.com/ . I have ordered it from them before. They would be glad to help you out. Rob. > June 10, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > email: portrait@heylloyd.com > ________________________________ >Try here: http://www.jdphotochem.com/ . I have ordered it from them before. >They would be glad to help you out. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Elon is metol. It has also been called Pictol and Photol. You can get it from Photographer's Formulary and severasl other places. You won't know the difference in use. http://www.jdphotochem.com/ seems to have a very good price for metol I europe I buy it from a german site http://www.omikron-online.de/cgi-bin/cosmoshop/lshop.cgi > June 10, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > ________________________________ > -- >So, until I'm discontinued, does anyone know >where to get Metol?? An easy source in Canada >would be nice... http://www.jdphotochem.com/ == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster www.legacy-photo,com www.xs750.net >So, until I'm discontinued, does anyone know >where to get Metol?? An easy source in Canada >would be nice... http://www.jdphotochem.com/ 5lbs for $125. I don't know if that's Canadian or American though. == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster www.legacy-photo,com www.xs750.net >>So, until I'm discontinued, does anyone know >>where to get Metol?? An easy source in Canada [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > www.legacy-photo,com > www.xs750.net June 10, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, Thanks for reminding me about this source! I had quite forgotten, even though I have a file about it on my computer. He prices in US$. The C$ just passed 0.90 USD, so the prices are relatively attractive. Shipping is a significant part of the price, though. There is also my favorite chemical supplier and goat-milk soap maker to the darkroom: Nymoc, 24 McGee St., Toronto M4M 2K9 Canada, (416) 465-1929. regards, --le ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. website: www.heylloyd.com telephone: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com ________________________________ >He prices in US$. The C$ just passed 0.90 >USD, so the prices are relatively attractive. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Toronto M4M 2K9 Canada, >(416) 465-1929. Price list ? BTW, my company has now opened up two operations in Canada. My manager left and is heading your way. We got him a snow shovel as a going away present. I offered to take his short sleeve shirts off his hands but he has hopes of returning to the corporate HQ someday ;>) == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster www.legacy-photo,com www.xs750.net ... I offered to take his short sleeve shirts off his hands but >he has hopes of returning to the corporate HQ someday ;>) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > www.legacy-photo,com > www.xs750.net June 12, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, He'll need those shirts here. Winter may be too cold, but summer is too hot. For a few days twice a year you don't need a furnace or an air conditiner. Global warming seems to be making Toronto much more tropical in summer. So far, the winters are getting milder. regards, --le ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. website: www.heylloyd.com telephone: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com ________________________________ > I'm running low on my stock of Metol (I use > the Kodak version called Elon, which could be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 1-800-GO-KODAK, all that black and white > stuff has been discontinued. Others have addressed alternate supply sources, but I'm a bit skeptical that Kodak has discontinued Elon. My suspicion is that the drone to whom you talked was confused because Kodak has discontinued B&W *PAPERS*. To the best of my knowledge, Kodak is still manufacturing B&W packaged chemistry (D-76, Dektol, XTOL, HC-110, etc.). Many of these packaged chemicals use Elon/Metol, so I'd be a bit surprised if Kodak stopped selling Elon by itself. Of course, I could be wrong and have just missed the "sky is falling" brouhaha that would inevitably erupt if Kodak WERE to discontinue selling Elon.  SignatureRod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 04:42:42 -0000, rodsmith@nessus.rodsbooks.com (Rod Smith) wrote: >My suspicion is that the drone to whom >you talked was confused June 11, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, That was my first thought. Poor fellow working for a photography company and what did he have to do? Talk to a dopey photographer about stupid photographic materials. I doubt that any of his training involved anything I asked him. Still, it's doubtful Kodak makes any Elon in Canada. If the operators of the branch plant here decided to suspend importation of anything from the mother corp, it's pretty much the same thing as discontinuation around here. And why am I in any lather to give nickels or even pennies to Kodak, anyway?? And what do the shareholders think about the way a paying customer such as myself has been told to take his business elsewhere? regards, --le ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. website: www.heylloyd.com telephone: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick wrote (in part): > Still, it's doubtful Kodak makes any Elon in > Canada. If the operators of the branch plant [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > customer such as myself has been told to take > his business elsewhere? What do the shareholders think? I imagine they are so concerned about the falling profits that they want the company to lay off as many employees as possible, giving first choice to those in less profitable parts of the company. They also want the company to lay off as much manufacturing as possible to reduce exposure to product liability and environmental lawsuits. How does selling piddling amounts of chemistry matter much to a corporation like that? They are not in the business of making life better for some hobbyists. They are in business to make profits for the shareholders. Signature.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 14:55:01 up 62 days, 4:25, 4 users, load average: 4.19, 4.08, 4.02 >I imagine they are so concerned about the falling profits that they want the >company to lay off as many employees as possible, giving first choice to >those in less profitable parts of the company. No doubt. Cost containment is the most significant reaction of people who don't know anything about business. As evidenced by recent developments in companies that have outsourced a significant amount of their workforce to third world countries, cost-containment is very secondary to have a customer in the first place. == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster www.legacy-photo,com www.xs750.net >> I imagine they are so concerned about the falling profits that they want the >> company to lay off as many employees as possible, giving first choice to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > their workforce to third world countries, cost-containment is very > secondary to have a customer in the first place. Trouble is, as the US exports jobs, it exports customers as well. And if it pays those customers less than the former US employees, they will not be able to purchase the company's products. Henry Ford, hardly noted for being a humanitarian, paid his employees more than he could have noting, if they cannot afford to buy my cars, who will? The US seems to have overlooked this point. Signature.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 07:35:01 up 62 days, 21:05, 5 users, load average: 4.14, 4.23, 4.18 >They are in business to make profits for the shareholders. June 12, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, This is unquestionable. On this subject, Steven Brierley of the newly restructured Ilford has some interesting remarks. http://photoformulary.com/images/Silver_Conference_movies/Steven_Brierley.mov regards, --le ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. website: www.heylloyd.com telephone: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com ________________________________ Hi Lloyd, We sell Metol (Elon) in units of 100g or 1lb and regularly ship to Canada. You can view all of the raw chemicals we stock on this page: http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/rawchemicals.html Regards, --Jon Mided Digitaltruth Photo http://www.digitaltruth.com Maybe its a good time to switch to Vitamin C developers. http://www.jackspcs.com/e76.htm I order Phenidone and Sodium Sulfite. The Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) comes from my local health food store, and Borax from the grocery store. > June 10, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > email: portrait@heylloyd.com > ________________________________ > Maybe its a good time to switch to Vitamin C developers. > > http://www.jackspcs.com/e76.htm > > I order Phenidone and Sodium Sulfite. The Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) comes > from my local health food store, and Borax from the grocery store. The most common developers use one ingredient from each of columns A and B, or minor variants of these items (best viewed with a monospaced font): A B --------- ------------- metol hydroquinone phenidone ascorbic acid In other words, ascorbic acid is a substitute for hydroquinone, not for metol. That said, phenidone seems to be more common in published ascorbate formulas, whereas metol seems to be more common in published hydroquinone formulas. Switching to a PC developer instead of an MQ developer will get you away from the metol, but not because it's an ascorbate developer per se. You could as easily switch to a PQ developer or to something else entirely (Rodinal, for instance, which is based on p-aminophenol). There are also published MC developers, such as Suzuki's DS-12, so some ascorbate developers still require metol. Furthermore, any photographic supply outlet that sells phenidone is almost certain to carry SOMEBODY'S brand of metol, too. Thus, although there are good reasons to switch from MQ to PC developers (and other reasons not to switch), difficulty finding Kodak-branded Elon/Metol isn't one of them. As a side note, there ARE formulas for developers that can be made using nothing but ingredients found in supermarkets, drug stores, hardware stores, and the like. Caffeinol and Rodinal-like developers built around Tylenol (acetaminophen) are examples. If ordering from photographic chemistry suppliers is impossible, these may do the trick. A couple of references (Google for more): http://www.apug.org/forums/article.php?a=22 http://silent1.home.netcom.com/Photography/Dilutions%20and%20Times.html SignatureRod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking > As a side note, there ARE formulas for developers that can be made using > nothing but ingredients found in supermarkets, drug stores, hardware > stores, and the like. Caffeinol and Rodinal-like developers built around > Tylenol (acetaminophen) are examples. If ordering from photographic > chemistry suppliers is impossible, these may do the trick. A couple of > references (Google for more): I've researched the Tylenol developer. Where pray tell can one get Sodium Sulfite in a drug or hardware store? I can get generic Tylenol, I can get Sodium Hydroxide from a soap maker, but I can't get Sodium Sulfite except from a photographic supply company, and there are none. The best I can do from a supermarket or drugstore is Tylenol and sodium bicarbonate. :-( Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 IL Fax: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ >> As a side note, there ARE formulas for developers that can be made using >> nothing but ingredients found in supermarkets, drug stores, hardware [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I've researched the Tylenol developer. Where pray tell can one get > Sodium Sulfite in a drug or hardware store? I did say "and the like." I've heard of sodium sulfite being purchased in pool supply stores, as it's used in some pool-maintenance products. If this is true (I've never verified it), it might be available in some hardware stores. SignatureRod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking Sodium sulfite is sold to lower chlorine levels in swimming pools. Mike > > As a side note, there ARE formulas for developers that can be made using > > nothing but ingredients found in supermarkets, drug stores, hardware [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Geoff. >Sodium sulfite is sold to lower chlorine levels in swimming pools. > >Mike As is sodium thiosulfate. == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster www.legacy-photo,com www.xs750.net >> Sodium sulfite is sold to lower chlorine levels in swimming pools. >> >> Mike > > As is sodium thiosulfate. Oh! Good! Then we will not need to be mixing Potassium Cyanide fixers. ;-) Signature.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 08:35:01 up 63 days, 22:05, 4 users, load average: 4.36, 4.63, 4.61 >Oh! Good! Then we will not need to be mixing Potassium Cyanide fixers. ;-) Save it for the fish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide_fishing == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster www.legacy-photo,com www.xs750.net Dynamite is much faster for fishin' :) > >Oh! Good! Then we will not need to be mixing Potassium Cyanide fixers. ;-) > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > www.legacy-photo,com > www.xs750.net >Dynamite is much faster for fishin' :) Yep. And it eliminates the need for cleaning as well ! == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster www.legacy-photo,com www.xs750.net >Maybe its a good time to switch to Vitamin C developers. An AQ mix can't be as simple and as effective of a developer as simple D23. D23 is more stable D23 is easier to mix D23 is less expensive Unfortunately environmentalist whackos seem to think that they know enough about chemistry to state that Elon or hydroquinone are bad when they don't know how "bas" Phenidone derivatives might be. == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster www.legacy-photo,com www.xs750.net I believe I read somewhere that Metol is supposed to yield better contour sharpness than Phenidone and it`s derivatives but Phenidone developers are cheaper to formulate. >>Maybe its a good time to switch to Vitamin C developers. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > www.legacy-photo,com > www.xs750.net > June 10, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > email: portrait@heylloyd.com > ________________________________ I'm getting into this thread late. Kodak sold its organic chemical division many years ago. I suspect it buys all its chemicals from outside suppliers but continues to package some. The chemical name for Elon is para methylamino sulfate, CAS No.55-55-0 It has been sold under perhaps a dozen trade names at various times, the most common being Metol, originally an Agfa trademark. It is currently made by Mallinkrodt-Baker under their name Pictol and as Metol-Elon by Shape Chemicals, and Sigma-Aldrich. Perhaps others. For Canada try: http://www.jdphotochem.com/ they have it listed on their on-line catalogue. There are a number of US dealers in photographic chemicals who ship to Canada. Try: http://www.photoformulary.com and http://www.artcraftchemicals.com/ See Ryuji Suzuki's site: http://www.silvergrain.org for good information on the differences between Metol and Phenidone, and between Ascorbic Acid and Hydroquinone. They are NOT interchangeable. Some of Ryuji's formulas are available from Digital Truth/Photographer's Formulary, see: http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/silvergrain.html Environmental and safety risks of Hydroquinone are discussed at: http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/sds/PhotoHealth/photohe4.html A rather thorough report on biological effects may be found at: http://inchem.org/documents/hsg/hsg/hsg101.htm The main hazard to the environment from Hydroquinone is depletion of oxygen in water supplies. This may affect many kinds of aquatic life and the balance of the kinds of organisms that can survive. Environmental hazards are often not very obvious and often several steps removed from the immediate effect of the pollutant. Its probable that in a big city sewer sytem both Metol and Hydroquinone are decomposed before they can do any damage. Metol is a sensitizer causing contact dermatitis. Some old literature states that the skin rash is from p-phenelyne diamine existing as an impurity, however, more recent research shows that Metol itself is a strong sensitizer. Contact with the skin of either Metol or Hydroquinone should be avoided. A last note: I can not agree with those who think environmentalists are wackos. There is very good science behind much of their concern. This is a very complex subject involving the economics of business. Good decisions about it are not going to be forthcoming from ignorance or denial. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com >Contact with the skin of either Metol or Hydroquinone should >be avoided. Then perhaps all hydroquinone creams used commonly for age spots and hair dyes should be banned ? Hydroquinone in the modest quantities used in a darkroom is relatively low on the toxicity scale. The use of chlorinated bleach in laundry is probably far higher and far reaching. > A last note: I can not agree with those who think >environmentalists are wackos. Not all are whackos. Just the majority of the over-active busy bodies who want to preserve every blade of grass at the cost of technology and the progress of humanity. > There is very good science behind much of their concern. And there is a far greater amount of ignorance combined with biased rhetoric. Believe me I'm all for saving the snails, whales and dales but not without an effective and practical plan for doing so. Most environmentalists are just as short-sighted, and perhaps moreso, than many industrialists. >This is a very complex subject >involving the economics of business. Good decisions about it >are not going to be forthcoming from ignorance or denial. I prefer responsible management to paranoid reactionism. I know about some of the games businesses play and the Hell that has been created in some locations such as Mexico and Taiwan. To address those issues one would be better off addressing the influences of greed on the human soul rather than simply cleaning up messes like the Exxon Valdez, Love Canal, Three Mile Island and Chernobyl. Unfortunately the human soul is far more complicated than a good photograph. Perhaps that is why many seek simplicity ? == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster www.legacy-photo,com www.xs750.net >Hydroquinone in the modest quantities >used in a darkroom is relatively low on the toxicity scale. The use of >chlorinated bleach in laundry is probably far higher and far >reaching. June 14, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, Over the years I've damaged clothing several times with ordinary laundry bleach. For every case of itchy skin caused by Hydroquinone or Metol, I wonder how many eyes have been injured by chlorine bleach? How many facial injuries? How many toddlers doused? I've never seen any admonition to wear safety glasses when handling laundry bleach. Or oven cleaner either, for that matter. Or Drano. But sodium thiowhatchamacallit, oh boy, look out, eek, it's a ... white powder! Do they put those little colored bits in laundry detergent so it's not a white powder any more? regards, --le ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. website: www.heylloyd.com telephone: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com ________________________________ >> A last note: I can not agree with those who think >>environmentalists are wackos. > > Not all are whackos. Just the majority of the over-active busy bodies > who want to preserve every blade of grass at the cost of technology > and the progress of humanity. Hyperbole won't help in a discussion of such matters, unless by "help" you mean "enflame the discussion." I'm skeptical that you could find a single environmentalist who literally wants to "preserve every blade of grass," except perhaps one who is literally living in a mental hospital. By using this sort of exaggeration, you both blur your own position (we don't know just how far you think is too far in terms of environmental protections) and annoy those who identify themselves as environmentalists, perhaps even those whose activities you would not find objectionable. The result could easily become a pointless flame war rather than a rational discussion of an important topic. SignatureRod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking > According to the knowledgeable folks at > 1-800-GO-KODAK, all that black and white > stuff [Metol/Elon] has been discontinued. The Kodak rep at the View Camera Magazine conference this weekend (June 11): "Kodak is committed to making photographic chemistry for black and white and is not discontinuing any of our products. Of course, that may change tomorrow...." SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics, Photonics, Informatics. Remove blanks to reply: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com f-Stop enlarging timers: http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/ >> According to the knowledgeable folks at >> 1-800-GO-KODAK, all that black and white [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > for black and white and is not discontinuing any of > our products. Of course, that may change tomorrow...." I suspect they mean packaged solutions, not individual chemicals. Kodak used to be a major manufacturer of organic chemicals (Eastman Organic Chemicals) and plastics but sold these divisions more than a decade ago. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com >The Kodak rep at the View Camera Magazine conference >this weekend (June 11): > > "Kodak is committed to making photographic chemistry > for black and white and is not discontinuing any of > our products. Of course, that may change tomorrow...." Yeah they really give a care about the photographic industry. Methinks they haven't for quite some time. When was T-Max introduced ? == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster www.legacy-photo,com www.xs750.net >The Kodak rep at the View Camera Magazine conference >this weekend (June 11): > > "Kodak is committed to making photographic chemistry > for black and white and is not discontinuing any of > our products. Of course, that may change tomorrow...." June 14, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, That's committment! --le |
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