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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / May 2006

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Film camera question

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Luis Ortega - 22 May 2006 19:25 GMT
I see a lot of developed film and contact sheets at my school and every once
in a while I see a roll of negatives or a contact sheet that has a thin band
of lighter tone (darker on the negatives) at the bottom of most negative
frames, as if all the frames got a little overexposure only along one edge.
Usually it's the bottom of the negative frame, and the lighter band is soft
edged and only about1 or 2 mm thick. The surrounding negative is normal and
doesn't look fogged.
Could this be caused by the shutter curtains slowing down a little at the
end of the travel distance thus giving that part of the film a tiny bit more
light? I can't determine if these defects correspong to the direction of
travel of the camera's shutter curtain, but if it was caused by an
inconsistent shutter curtain speed it should show up along the edge where
the shutter curtain ends at.
Can anyone advise on what couyld be causing this negative defect?
Thanks for any advice.
David Nebenzahl - 22 May 2006 20:19 GMT
Luis Ortega spake thus:

> I see a lot of developed film and contact sheets at my school and every once
> in a while I see a roll of negatives or a contact sheet that has a thin band
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> end of the travel distance thus giving that part of the film a tiny bit more
> light?

Probably not, since most focal-plane shutters travel horizontally across
the frame. A few use vertical-travel curtains.

> I can't determine if these defects correspong to the direction of
> travel of the camera's shutter curtain, but if it was caused by an
> inconsistent shutter curtain speed it should show up along the edge where
> the shutter curtain ends at.

Questions: does the dark band on the negatives extend over the frames?
In other words, is it continuous across the strip of film, or is it only
inside the frames? If continuous, it might be a light leak.

If the bottoms of the frames are all evenly darker (on the negatives)
but the darkness is confined to the frames, then it may be a localized
overdevelopment issue, where the very bottom (or top) of the film is
getting more development. (Assuming normal rollfilm tank development.)

More information, please.

Signature

I hope that in a few years it [Wikipedia] will be so bloated that it
will simply disintegrate, because I can't stand the thought that this
thing might someday actually be used as a serious reference source.
Because in its current form, it's not to be taken seriously at all.

- Horst Prillinger (see
http://homepage.univie.ac.at/horst.prillinger/blog/archives/2004/06/000623.html)

dj_nme - 23 May 2006 02:18 GMT
> Luis Ortega spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Probably not, since most focal-plane shutters travel horizontally across
> the frame.

Most modern camera manufacturers use a verticaly traveling metal focal
plane shutter in their SLR and DSLR cameras.
It is definitely a symptom of a sticking shutter.
Don't forget that the image is _inverted_ at the film plane and the
bottom of the scene is captured at the top of the film frame.
A dark stripe on along the top of the negative (which is the bottom of
the scene) is a symptom of a sticking shutter, it starts a bit slow
(over-exposing the top edge of the film) and then runs at the correct
speed across the rest of the frame.

> A few use vertical-travel curtains.

Have a good look at any AF Nikon SLR, a Canon EOS SLR, or any of the AF
Pentax SLR camera bodies, they all have a verticaly traveling metal
focal plane shutter.
Even the Voigtlander rangefinder series have a verticaly traveling metal
shutter.
The only "modern" manufacturer to use a cloth focal plane shutter is
Leica and that is only in their rangefinder cameras; Leica SLR cameras
use a verticaly traveling metal shutter.

>> I can't determine if these defects correspong to the direction of
>> travel of the camera's shutter curtain, but if it was caused by an
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> In other words, is it continuous across the strip of film, or is it only
> inside the frames? If continuous, it might be a light leak.

It could also indicate that the shutter is sticking slightly partway
across the film gate, and over-exposing that area of the film.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 22 May 2006 22:02 GMT
> [edge of film] the bottom of most negative frames ... ~1mm lighter band
> ... looks fogged. [why?]

One cause is the edge of the film not getting developed
because it is up tight against the spiral in the processing
tank.  The stripe is unfixed film, showing up light on the
contact sheet.

If the stripe is black on the negative then:

With 120/220 it is normal for some light to get to
the edge of the film.  The fit of the film in the spool
is an ooch loose, leaving a gap between the spool ends and
the roll of the film - light gets in and gets to the
edge of the film.

If the film is really loose on the spool, Holga & Co.,
then the fogging can extend in quite a ways.

If this is a 35mm roll then it may be because of: a leak
in the cassette; film was bulk loaded and some light got
at the pancake of film in the loader; mechanical stress
of loading the film on the developing reel caused fogging.

And sometimes 'just because'.
Richard Knoppow - 22 May 2006 22:06 GMT
>I see a lot of developed film and contact sheets at my
>school and every once in a while I see a roll of negatives
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> defect?
> Thanks for any advice.

  Please define the part of the negative a little better.
Do you mean a part of the negative adjacent to the sprocket
holes or at the ends next to the adjacent frame?
  Briefly, if there is a dark streak along one row of
sprocket holes it is probably from uneven development . At
the ends of the negatives adjacent to the next negative it
could well be a shutter problem. Knowing the type of camera
being used (is it only one camera?) and more about how the
film is processed would be helpful.
  Please do not cross-post. I am confining this answer to
rec.photo.darkroom

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

David - 22 May 2006 22:40 GMT
> I see a lot of developed film and contact sheets at my school and every once
> in a while I see a roll of negatives or a contact sheet that has a thin band
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Can anyone advise on what couyld be causing this negative defect?
> Thanks for any advice.

This could perhaps  be as a result of the film wound onto the film
reels for development. Are the reels plastic or stainless? The light
band MAY be the result of the developer not reaching that part of the
film which is resting between the external band of concentric rings on
the spool. As to why this is not the case on the upper band, I don't
have a clue. I have not noted this on any of my  B&W film processed by
me on stainless reels.

David N.
Luis Ortega - 23 May 2006 19:53 GMT
Thanks to all. I need to check out the various suggestion offered. To
clarify, the defect is not an undevelopment effect caused by the rails of
the reels impeding the developer  along the sprocket hole areas but
something that is happening only inside the negative frame itself. It is
very evident on a contact sheet when you can see all of the frames side by
side. Each contact frame appears a little whiter and more washed out along
one edge, usually the bottom edge but sometimes the side edge.
I work in a school and see dozens of cameras in the darkroom so I can't do a
lot more than try to follow it up as it happens, but I am curious as to why
this is happening.
Thanks to all.

>I see a lot of developed film and contact sheets at my school and every
>once in a while I see a roll of negatives or a contact sheet that has a
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Can anyone advise on what couyld be causing this negative defect?
> Thanks for any advice.
David Nebenzahl - 23 May 2006 20:27 GMT
Luis Ortega spake thus:

> Thanks to all. I need to check out the various suggestion offered. To
> clarify, the defect is not an undevelopment effect caused by the rails of
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>>Can anyone advise on what couyld be causing this negative defect?
>>Thanks for any advice.

So it's gotta be an exposure issue, and not light leaks. Most likely
uneven exposure due to dragging shutter curtains, as others have
suggested. A trip to the repair shop for those cameras may be in order.

By the way, if the uneven exposure is along the bottom (long) edge of
the frame, the offending camera has vertically-traveling curtains; along
the short edge, horizontally-traveling ones. Might help to sort out
which camera took which pictures.

Signature

I hope that in a few years it [Wikipedia] will be so bloated that it
will simply disintegrate, because I can't stand the thought that this
thing might someday actually be used as a serious reference source.
Because in its current form, it's not to be taken seriously at all.

- Horst Prillinger (see
http://homepage.univie.ac.at/horst.prillinger/blog/archives/2004/06/000623.html)

Nicholas O. Lindan - 23 May 2006 22:13 GMT
> something that is happening only inside the negative frame itself.

If this is 35mm, something everyone seems to be assuming,
I'll toss my hat in with the sticky-vertical-shutter crowd.
Vertical shutters were used on Exa's and Exakta 500s -- if there is
one of these hanging around I'd bet money it's the one with the problem.

A light leak is the usual culprit but 35mm cameras as a rule don't
leak light into the mirror box.  Is the film fogged or overexposed?

You should only see this in contact sheets from one camera and
one photographer unless the class shares common camera(s).

Probably a good idea to report the problem to the camera owner/
class instructor.  The problem will only get worse with time and
the shutter may stop completely in cold weather.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics, Photonics, Informatics.
Remove blanks to reply:   n o lindan at ix . netcom . com
f-Stop enlarging timers: http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/ 

David Nebenzahl - 23 May 2006 22:43 GMT
Nicholas O. Lindan spake thus:

>>something that is happening only inside the negative frame itself.
>
> If this is 35mm, something everyone seems to be assuming,
> I'll toss my hat in with the sticky-vertical-shutter crowd.
> Vertical shutters were used on Exa's and Exakta 500s -- if there is
> one of these hanging around I'd bet money it's the one with the problem.

Oh, come on, Nicholas: how likely do you think it is that students would
be using these antiquated cameras?

Besides, I have an Exa, and it does indeed have a vertical shutter, but
it's definitely not a focal plane shutter. It's one of the weirdest
shutters I've ever seen, and even if it malfunctioned would not leave
that kind of an artifact within the exposed frame.

> A light leak is the usual culprit but 35mm cameras as a rule don't
> leak light into the mirror box.  Is the film fogged or overexposed?

Read his post; he said the effect was within the frame only, implying no
fogging outside the frame, therefore not a light leak problem.

Signature

I hope that in a few years it [Wikipedia] will be so bloated that it
will simply disintegrate, because I can't stand the thought that this
thing might someday actually be used as a serious reference source.
Because in its current form, it's not to be taken seriously at all.

- Horst Prillinger (see
http://homepage.univie.ac.at/horst.prillinger/blog/archives/2004/06/000623.html)

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org - 24 May 2006 21:38 GMT
> Nicholas O. Lindan spake thus:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Oh, come on, Nicholas: how likely do you think it is that students would
> be using these antiquated cameras?

FWIW, a vast number (maybe a majority) of 35mm SLRs from the 80s
and 90s use vertical travel focal plane shutters.  Not just AF,
but many MF as well.  The Nikon FM and FE are two common ones.
Most of the SLRs with 1/125 or faster flash sync have vertical travel
shutters.
Richard Knoppow - 23 May 2006 23:59 GMT
> Thanks to all. I need to check out the various suggestion
> offered. To clarify, the defect is not an undevelopment
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> happening.
> Thanks to all.

 If the effect is inside the frame its obviously happening
in the camera. Since it seems to happen on different edges
in various pictures its not likely the shutter. It _might_
be an internal reflection of some sort. The way to find out
is to put a small piece of ground glass in the film gate,
open the shutter (T exposure) and shine a flashlight intot
the lens from different angles. Actually you may be able to
see a reflection just by eye. The cure is to paint whatever
is causing the reflection with flat black paint or some
other light absorptive material.
  It is possible for a focal plane shutter to cause a band
of under or overexposure at one end of its travel but it
will consistently at the same place on each frame. It is
also possible for a focal plane shutter to cause spots or
steaks on frames if it has holes in it, but this sounds like
something that is not shutter related.
  If the camera is an SLR check for light leaks from the
finder when the mirror is in the up position. Sometimes the
light seals in SLR's get old and don't work. Unless you eye
is pressed right against the finder some light can get in
and cause some form of fogging. I am suggesting this only
because your problem seems to be a little unusual and the
cause may be a bit unusual.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

John - 25 May 2006 01:47 GMT
>  If the effect is inside the frame its obviously happening
>in the camera. Since it seems to happen on different edges
>in various pictures its not likely the shutter. It _might_
>be an internal reflection of some sort.

Interesting thought. Perhaps a shiny edge on the mirror holder ?

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    www.legacy-photo,com
    www.xs750.net
John - 25 May 2006 01:43 GMT
>I work in a school and see dozens of cameras in the darkroom so I can't do a
>lot more than try to follow it up as it happens, but I am curious as to why
>this is happening.
>Thanks to all.

Sounds to me like shutter bounce in a camera with a vertically
traveling shutter such as an FE, FM2, F3 and many others.
Manufacturers such as Nikon switched to vertical travel in an effort
to increase the flash sync speed, top shutter speed and for other
reasons I'm sure.

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    www.legacy-photo,com
    www.xs750.net
wilt - 24 May 2006 04:06 GMT
If the stripe is uneven and outside the frame, Nick Lindan's
explanation is dead on target!  Unfixed (not cleared by the fixer)
Cheesehead - 24 May 2006 20:41 GMT
Since we're talking in school
I wonder about just the simple problem of
a bad fix job.

Collin
KC8TKA
 
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