Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / April 2006
Enlarging lens question
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Colyn - 02 Apr 2006 02:44 GMT I picked up a couple of enlarging lens today at a yard sale and was wondering about the quality. One is a Beslar 50mm f/3.5 and the other is a El-Omegar 50mm f/3.5 Are these lens worth using or should I dump them??
-- Colyn Goodson
http://www.colyngoodson.com
Floyd L. Davidson - 02 Apr 2006 04:00 GMT >I picked up a couple of enlarging lens today at a yard sale and was >wondering about the quality. >One is a Beslar 50mm f/3.5 and the other is a El-Omegar 50mm f/3.5 >Are these lens worth using or should I dump them?? The Belsar 50mm was the standard lense that came with Besler 35mm enlargers. It must be worth at least 35 cents these days?? ;-)
The Rodenstock El-Omegar 50mm was the standard lense that came with Omega enlargers for 35mm film. It must be worth at least half again as much as the Belsar lense...
Generally the problem you'll have with these lenses is needing to stop down to f/16 to get the edges of an 8x10 print in focus. They don't have a flat enough field to use them anywhere near wide open, which is very inconvenient to say the least.
What you want is an El Nikkor, a Componon-S or a Rodagon 50mm lens for 35mm enlarging. I used to use El Nikkor enlarging lenses, but the others also have good reputations.
Note that none of the good lenses are particularly expensive on eBay these days (usually well under $50 used) so there really isn't much reason for keeping the lesser quality lenses.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Colyn - 02 Apr 2006 04:21 GMT >Generally the problem you'll have with these lenses is needing >to stop down to f/16 to get the edges of an 8x10 print in focus. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >lens for 35mm enlarging. I used to use El Nikkor enlarging >lenses, but the others also have good reputations. I use a Leica 50mm f/2 Summitar lens on my D2 but needed another lens for an Omega C700 I found which will go to a friends son who is learning to process and print his own photos.
I also have a Schneider lens on my Durst.
-- Colyn Goodson
http://www.colyngoodson.com
Floyd L. Davidson - 02 Apr 2006 05:20 GMT >>Generally the problem you'll have with these lenses is needing >>to stop down to f/16 to get the edges of an 8x10 print in focus. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >I use a Leica 50mm f/2 Summitar lens on my D2 but needed another lens That is probably not optimum, but would certainly be much better than the Belsar or El Omegar you mentioned.
Given the low price of a good enlarging lense, I'd get one.
>for an Omega C700 I found which will go to a friends son who is >learning to process and print his own photos. > >I also have a Schneider lens on my Durst. The default lense supplied with a Durst enlarger is going to be just about the same quality as the stock lenses for Omega and Belser enlargers: the cheapest thing that appears to work, more or less. Schneider of course has made some very good enlarging lenses, but like all of the other lense manufacturers they made some very low cost low performance lenses too.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Nicholas O. Lindan - 02 Apr 2006 14:25 GMT > needed another lens > for an Omega C700 I found which will go to a friends son who is > learning to process and print his own photos. [Found an > el-Omegaron and el-Beselar...] I had a Nikon 50/3.5 Tessar formula lens which I replaced with a 50/2.8 6-Element. The difference in prints was startling: I couldn't tell the difference. Several hundred dollars down the drain. I have very good acuity, I spot my prints with a 30x stereo microscope, I have 'blads, Leicas and Sinars all with SOTA lenses and my requirements for 'sharp' are higher than any other anal retentive I know. Bottom line: IMO there is more hype about lenses than there is about developers - that doesn't mean there aren't some really awful lenses out there but Apo-Costalotagons don't improve anyone's photographs.
Put the lenses on your enlarger and make a few test prints. Only you can say what is acceptable you.
I wouldn't spend money on lenses for the kid when he may not get hooked by darkroom work. As a first lens either of these is great. Play 'Princess and the Pea': if the kid complains about sharpness then you know he is on the hook.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics, Photonics, Informatics. Remove blanks to reply: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com f-Stop enlarging timers: http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/
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Colyn - 02 Apr 2006 15:37 GMT >I wouldn't spend money on lenses for the kid when he may >not get hooked by darkroom work. As a first lens either of >these is great. Play 'Princess and the Pea': if the kid >complains about sharpness then you know he is on the hook. I picked up the enlarger a few weeks back without lens for $5 at a yard sale and got both lens yesterday for $1. The boy seems interested so I don't have much invested if he doesn't stay with it.
-- Colyn Goodson
http://www.colyngoodson.com
Floyd L. Davidson - 03 Apr 2006 02:37 GMT >>I wouldn't spend money on lenses for the kid when he may >>not get hooked by darkroom work. As a first lens either of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The boy seems interested so I don't have much invested if he doesn't >stay with it. Sounds to me like an opportunity for a wonderful learning experience, that you can easily "arrange" for!
Let this young fellow get started using the two lenses you have. Certainly if the idea of making prints in a darkroom happens to light his fires, to begin with he won't come even close to noticing the deficiencies those lenses have. Or, at least it won't for quite some time. (As a teenager 45 years ago it took me 3-4 weeks to discover that a 50mm Vivitar enlarging lens was a real limitation.)
Hence, if he only goes to all the trouble of making prints 3 or 4 times and then moves on to something that does interest him, you don't need to invest in a better lense. But if he's got the enlarger cranked up at every opportunity... set up a scenario to /cause/ him to discover the limitations of those lenses.
First, get a couple more lenses! One should be 75mm, and can be another $1 special, because edge sharpness will not be important. But do spend $25-50 on a used example of one of the better 50mm enlarging lenses.
Then propose a project to photograph something that will demonstrate sharpness at the edges. Try copying something that is rectangular with important detail in the corner, such as a page of text, a painting, or maybe best of all a line drawing of some sort. Then try to make an 8x10, or larger, print.
The lessons that follow from this will demonstrate the effects on sharpness as the cheap lens is stopped down (not only is the center a little sharper at f/8 or f/11, but due to a greater depth of field the edges will be *greatly* improved)... but it will not be possible to get a print with sharp detail in the corners (you can expect a thin line to be 1/4" wide!).
That's time to haul out a cheap 75mm lense!
The print won't use the edges of the 75mm lense... but to get an 8x10 requires a lot more distance between the lense and the paper too. Hmmm... it can be done, but is sure isn't convenient! (Might be time for a magnifier focusing aid, too.)
And that's the time to haul out the $30 example of a *good* 50mm lense!
A few experiments will show that when stopped down to the sharpest f/stop, the edges are just as sharp on the print as is the center, and a full sized 8x10 doesn't require wall mounting the enlarger either!
For a very small investment, there's an awful lot of "eye opener" that can be directly transfered to how the lense on a camera works too.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
David Nebenzahl - 03 Apr 2006 03:01 GMT Floyd L. Davidson spake thus:
> That's time to haul out a cheap 75mm lense! Just one small question: why do you insiste on spellinge it "lense"?
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Floyd L. Davidson - 03 Apr 2006 04:44 GMT >Floyd L. Davidson spake thus: > >> That's time to haul out a cheap 75mm lense! > >Just one small question: why do you insiste on spellinge it "lense"? Correct spelling that has effect is a good policy.
And I'm not religious.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Colyn - 03 Apr 2006 03:22 GMT >Sounds to me like an opportunity for a wonderful learning >experience, that you can easily "arrange" for! I wanted to compare these lens to my Schneider and Summitar so I made 8x10 B&W prints from the same negative using each lens.
The Beslar lens is now in the trash. Image enlargement at 8x10 was poor with no sharpness whatsoever. It wouldn't even make a good soft focus portrait.
The El-Omegar compared well with the Schneider with just a trace of edge softness but the best of the bunch was my trusty Leica Summitar. The image was razor sharp from center to edge with no trace of edge softness and contrast was outstanding.
BTW: This lens has worked well when enlarging 35mm slides.
I've used this lens for years having gotten the idea from my granddad. He used a Summar 50mm f/2.
I may have to try my screwmount Summicron next.
-- Colyn Goodson
http://www.colyngoodson.com
John - 03 Apr 2006 01:15 GMT > Bottom line: IMO there is >more hype about lenses than there is about developers Perhaps however there are a lot more individual developer formulas than there are lens models ;>)
>- that >doesn't mean there aren't some really awful lenses out there >but Apo-Costalotagons don't improve anyone's photographs. Sharp images of fuzzy concepts ? Don't worry, Photoshop can fix anything and someone will call it art anyway.
== John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster www.legacy-photo,com www.xs750.net
Bob Salomon - 03 Apr 2006 02:33 GMT In article <p3q0325oarujo32nbf26tmb0gotrs8h8la@4ax.com>,
> >but Apo-Costalotagons don't improve anyone's photographs. No, they just make sharper prints over a wider range of magnifications and over a larger range of optimal apertures. They also deliver better color saturation in color and sharper lines in B&W.
But to get optimal results from any enlarging lens, regardless of the quality of the lens you MUST print with a glass negative carrier and a properly aligned enlarger.
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news.verizon.net - 19 Apr 2006 23:26 GMT That's the best advice I've rad on this thread so far!
>> needed another lens >> for an Omega C700 I found which will go to a friends son who is [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > these is great. Play 'Princess and the Pea': if the kid > complains about sharpness then you know he is on the hook. Ken Hart - 02 Apr 2006 04:42 GMT > I picked up a couple of enlarging lens today at a yard sale and was > wondering about the quality. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://www.colyngoodson.com My Omega B-22 came with an El-Omegar... The difference was amazing when I replaced it with a Schneider (don't remember the exact "vintage"). In my case, the sharpness improved a noticeable amount, but the Omegar was giving me flare around highlights-- that dissappearred with the better lens.
IIRC, the Omeger was a smaller diameter mount and I had to do some fancy cutting to mount the Schneider. Not impossible, just painstaking.
 Signature Ken Hart kwhart@aec.nu
Colyn - 02 Apr 2006 05:10 GMT >My Omega B-22 came with an El-Omegar... The difference was amazing when I >replaced it with a Schneider (don't remember the exact "vintage"). In my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >IIRC, the Omeger was a smaller diameter mount and I had to do some fancy >cutting to mount the Schneider. Not impossible, just painstaking. My Schneider uses the same 39mm mount as the 2 lens I picked up today so I had no problems mounting it on my Durst.
-- Colyn Goodson
http://www.colyngoodson.com
Richard Knoppow - 02 Apr 2006 06:18 GMT >>My Omega B-22 came with an El-Omegar... The difference was >>amazing when I [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > http://www.colyngoodson.com Schneider mounts vary with age. Earlier, chrome barrel versions of the Componon are not Leica thread mount (39mm mount), later ones are, at least up to 105mm. While the later versions of this lens are better than the older ones even the chrome barrel Componon is nothing to snear at. These were the best enlarging lenses available at the time they were made and are still very respectable. Similar Rodenstock lenses are also very good to excellent but are not very common on the used market.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Colyn - 02 Apr 2006 15:34 GMT >Schneider mounts vary with age. Earlier, chrome barrel >versions of the Componon are not Leica thread mount (39mm [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Rodenstock lenses are also very good to excellent but are >not very common on the used market. I started off with a Schneider with a small mount (don't recall the size) then went to the newer versions with 39mm. I currently have a 50mm and 75mm. Both are as sharp as any I have seen.
One lens I wish I had kept though was a 50mm Rokkor-X Minolta enlarging lens.
-- Colyn Goodson
http://www.colyngoodson.com
Richard Knoppow - 03 Apr 2006 01:39 GMT >>Schneider mounts vary with age. Earlier, chrome barrel >>versions of the Componon are not Leica thread mount (39mm [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > http://www.colyngoodson.com I also have a 50mm El-Rokkor, its an excellent lens. I don't use it because I have a Componon-S in that focal length. I am not certain what type of lens the Rokkor is, I think a Heliar. Kodak Enlarging Ektars are also excellent and often cheap used because they are so old.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
David Nebenzahl - 03 Apr 2006 03:04 GMT Richard Knoppow spake thus:
> ... Kodak Enlarging Ektars are also excellent > and often cheap used because they are so old. We may have been over this before, but what do you think of the predecessors to those lenses, the Projection Anastigmats? (Apart from their not being coated.) I've got a bunch of these (cheap from eBay) that I've gotten excellent results from.
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- motto of the Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/)
Richard Knoppow - 04 Apr 2006 22:48 GMT > Richard Knoppow spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > a bunch of these (cheap from eBay) that I've gotten > excellent results from. I've not had one to test. They are probably good performers. The Enlarging Ektar series was intended for color work, they are well corrected for lateral color. The 50mm and 75mm are Heliar types (5 elements in 3 groups), the 152mm is a dialyte (four air spaced elements). I have a 75mm Enlarging Ektar, which holds it own compared to an older Componon. I also have a 152mm Ektar but its scratched up. The lenses I use for enlarging are all Componon-S except for the 80mm one which is an earlier chrome barrel one.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
John - 05 Apr 2006 05:00 GMT >> We may have been over this before, but what do you think >> of the predecessors to those lenses, the Projection [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > I've not had one to test. I have one that I would be glad to send out to you if you want to take a look at it. It's a 161/4.5. Very heavy for such a compact lens. The outer dimater of the threaded area is 50.8mm and the front is 49.1mm. In looking at the specular reflections of my rooms overhead ligt in the lens, there are 5 reflections that are easily observable. I picked mine up on Ebay for the princely sum of $7.50 +S&H but I don't feel cheated as the lens came in the original box with the original packing paper and lens cap. I'd say it's in mint condition and never been used.
== John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster www.legacy-photo,com www.xs750.net
David Nebenzahl - 05 Apr 2006 07:04 GMT John spake thus:
>>>We may have been over this before, but what do you think >>>of the predecessors to those lenses, the Projection [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > paper and lens cap. I'd say it's in mint condition and never been > used. I have that exact same lens here; came with my $9 5x7 Elwood. Not unused, but in excellent condition. And it makes very good prints from 4x5, that I can vouch for.
 Signature Save the Planet Kill Yourself
- motto of the Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/)
Peter - 02 Apr 2006 04:49 GMT > I picked up a couple of enlarging lens today at a yard sale and was > wondering about the quality. > One is a Beslar 50mm f/3.5 and the other is a El-Omegar 50mm f/3.5 > Are these lens worth using or should I dump them?? Even 3rd rate enlarging lenses make pretty fair loupes for looking at negatives and contact sheets, so they still may be useful to someone even if not for their intended purpose.
Peter.
 Signature pirwin@ktb.net
John - 03 Apr 2006 01:18 GMT >I picked up a couple of enlarging lens today at a yard sale and was >wondering about the quality. >One is a Beslar 50mm f/3.5 and the other is a El-Omegar 50mm f/3.5 >Are these lens worth using or should I dump them?? They're fFine for small enlargements and B-&-W. I'd be concerned about color quality a little if printing RA-4 but haven't bothered with that in years.
== John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster www.legacy-photo,com www.xs750.net
gr - 03 Apr 2006 01:38 GMT > I picked up a couple of enlarging lens today at a yard sale and was > wondering about the quality. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://www.colyngoodson.com These are both basic 3 element lenses. Not quite as bad as some of the replies make out. Running at f/8 or f/11 will give pretty good results. The next step up is the 4 element tessar design which yields vg quality, then the 6 element lens which is slightly better, then the apo version, with extra color correction (and a whopping price) gr
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