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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2006Warm tone papers and developers
The instruction sheets for the two papers I'll be trying (Arista & Forte) recommend Dektol, why not a warm tone developer (like Agfa 120)? Also, I goofed and mixed the120 with sodium, not potassium carbonate. Will this make a big difference? -LS >The instruction sheets for the two papers I'll be trying (Arista & Forte) >recommend Dektol, why not a warm tone developer (like Agfa 120)? Also, I >goofed and mixed the120 with sodium, not potassium carbonate. Will this >make a big difference? >-LS March 25, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, It won't make a big difference. If you tried both ways and compared final prints, you would see a slight, subtle difference. The developer has a powerful effect on the result of selenium toning. You're right about 120 developer (Adams publishes the formula as Ansco 120, in "The Print"). It's very good for prints meant to be toned. Replacing the sulfite with the potassium salt will further increase the warmth of tone. regards, --le  Signature________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________ >The instruction sheets for the two papers I'll be trying (Arista & Forte) >recommend Dektol, why not a warm tone developer (like Agfa 120)? Dektol will give a warm tone tending towards green, with the Forte paper at least and probably with some others. A "warm tone" developer will give a warm tone tending towards yellow-brown. Either can be quite nice, depending on what you're aiming for. Some photographers consider the greenish tone resulting from using a "cold tone" developer with a "warm tone" paper to be ugly, particularly for certain subjects; personally, I like it a lot for night shots of architecture, and for certain other things, but I usually find it unwelcome for portraits. Ektaflo Type 2 is a nice developer to keep handy for use with warm tone papers. It is a convenient liquid formula which gives results that are not so far towards brown as some other developers, but not green as Dektol can be. It is basically the same as Kodak Selectol, which is no longer available, so you can really fine-tune image color and contrast by either substituting it with Selectol-Soft (which gives less contrast, and a _very very_ slightly warmer image) or mixing it with Dektol working solution (which gives both higher contrast and a shift in image color depending how much of each is used in the mix). SignatureThor Lancelot Simon tls@rek.tjls.com "We cannot usually in social life pursue a single value or a single moral aim, untroubled by the need to compromise with others." - H.L.A. Hart > In article > <I5GdnVfzqo0mArjZnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@speakeasy.net>, [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > shift in image color depending how much of each is used in > the mix). Ektaflo Type-2 is a liquid similar to the discontinued Ektonol. Ektonol was advertised as not containing carbonate. Ektonol had a mixtuure of Borax and hydroxide, which become Kodalk in solution. Kodak claimed this reduced the chances of staining when toning but I've never seen an explanation of this claim or ever had a problem with staining which could be traced to the developer. The main difference between cold, normal, and warm tone developers is their activity. In general, warm tone developers have less carbonate. Agfa/Ansco 120 is different because it has only Metol as the developing agent. This is similar to Kodak Selectol Soft. Some developing agents, notably Glycin, and Hydroquinone when used alone, tend toward warmer tones. Increasing the amount of Bromide will also shift tones toward yellow. Potassium salts are supposed to be somewhat different than Sodium in photographic activity but I've never seen any sort of scientific measurment of this. For the most part they are interchangible. While Agfa liked to use Potassium salts in its packaged formulas the published ones have mostly sodium salts. Agfa evidently obtained potassium salts cheaply as a by-product of some manufacturing process. Here are some formulae for comparison: Agfa 120 Soft Working Paper Developer Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml Metol 12.5 grams Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 36.0 grams Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 36.0 grams Potassium Bromide 1.8 grams Water to make 1.0 liter For use dilute 1 part stock with 2 parts water. Agfa 125 Standard Paper Developer Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml Metol 3.0 grams Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 44.0 grams Hydroquinone 12.0 grams Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 65.0 grams Potassium Bromide 2.0 grams Water to make 1.0 liter For use dilute 1 part stock to 2 parts water. Agfa 106 Warm Tone Paper Developer Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml Metol 0.7 grams Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 11.5 grams Hydroquinone 3.5 grams Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 10.5 grams Potassium Bromide 2.4 grams Water to make 1.0 liter Do not dilute for use. Agfa 103 Blue-Black Paper Developer Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml Metol 3.5 grams Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 45.0 grams Hydroquinone 11.5 grams Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 78.0 grams Potassium Bromide 1.2 grams Water to make 1.0 liter For use dilute one part stock with two parts water. Agfa 120 is equivalent to Kodak Selectol Soft (no published formula) Agfa 125 is equivalent to Kodak D-72/Dektol Agfa 106 is equivalent to Kodak D-52/Selectol but at half strength i.e., equivalent to the developer diluted one part stock to one part water. Agfa 103 is equivalent to Kodak D-73. An example of a Glycin warm tone developer is Agfa 115 Agfa 115 Glycin-Hydroquinone Developer for Warm Tones Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 90.0 grams Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 150.0 ml Glycin 30.0 grams Hydroquinone 9.5 grams Potassium Bromide 4.0 grams Water to make 1.0 liter For use dilute 1 part stock with 3 parts water. This developer yields warm tones with normal paper exposure times. Note that the amount of Potassium Bromide in many print developers, notabl the Dektol types, is minimal, typically around 2 grams/liter of stock. This can be increased very considerably, up to around 12 grams per liter, with consequent warming of the image tone. There will be some loss of paper speed as the amount is increased. For convenience I've copied these formulas from the 1944 edition of the _Photo Lab Index_, however, I have the original Agfa and Ansco formula booklets and have checked the formulas with them. All of the publications for the U.S. market specify sodium salts for the carbonate and sulfite. However, in my German edition Potassium salts are indicated in some formulas. I think this is more a matter of what was available than the photographic effect. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com Richard: Your PLI formula for Agfa 120 is _very_ different from the one in Anchell's Darkroom Cookbook (p.195) where it's tagged "Brown Tone Paper Developer." I don't need to soften contrast since I use a diffuser head to begin with, but I do want to experiment with warm tones. Anchell's Agfa 120 Water 750gms Sodium Sulfite 60gms Hydroquinone 24gms Potassium carbonate 80gms Water to 1l Recommended dilutions are 1:5 and 1:4 -Lew > Agfa 120 Soft Working Paper Developer > Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > For use dilute 1 part stock with 2 parts water. > Richard: > Your PLI formula for Agfa 120 is _very_ different from the one in [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > > > For use dilute 1 part stock with 2 parts water. See my other post in this thread. Agfa evidently used the same numbers for quite different formulas. No.120 as given by Anchell is from booklet published in Berlin and apparently aimed at the British market. The other 120 formula is from American formula books. There are a couple of other duplicated formula numbers. -- Richard Knoppow dickburk@ix.netcom.com I like the tones I get on warmtone and neutral tone papers with Ryuji's DS-14. There's additional info that's good reading at: http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/print-dev-recommend.html I gives a nice warm touch to neutral papers and I like the tones it brings out on warmtone Ilford, too. >The instruction sheets for the two papers I'll be trying (Arista & Forte) >recommend Dektol, why not a warm tone developer (like Agfa 120)? Also, I >goofed and mixed the120 with sodium, not potassium carbonate. Will this >make a big difference? >-LS Craig Schroeder craig nospam craigschroeder com >I like the tones I get on warmtone and neutral tone papers >with [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Craig Schroeder > craig nospam craigschroeder com A couple of notes: The Agfa 120 formula shown on Ryuji's site is an old one found in European Agfa literature, it is not the same as Agfa/Ansco 120 as found in most books. The old formula is: Brown Tone Formula No.120 Stock Solution: Water 1.0 liter Hydroquinone 24.0 grams Sodium Sulphite, anydrous 60.0 grams Potassium Carbonate 80.0 grams Potassium Bromide 2.0 grams The instructions show dilutions from 1 part stock to 2 parts water to 1 part stock to 8 parts water with recommended exposure increases and development times for various Agfa papers of the time. It is curious that the formula shows the hydroquinone being dissolved before the Sulfite. This makes sense for Metol because Metol will not dissolve in a strong solution of sulfite but here, I think one would do better to dissolve the sulfite first. I have no idea how practical this formula is for current materials. Another Agfa developer which is similar to the above but is found in American literature is: Agfa 110 Direct Brown Black Paper Developer Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml Hydroquinone 22.5 grams Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 57.0 grams Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 57.0 grams Potassium Bromide 2.75 grams Water to make 1.0 liter For use dilute one part stock with 5 parts water. Give prints 3 to 4 times normal exposure and develop for 5 to 7 minutes at 68F Ryuji is a very knowledgible chemist so I his formulas are certainly worth trying out. A further note: I gave the formula for Agfa 106 and stated it was similar to Kodak D-52/Selectol but at about half strength. I overlooked Agfa formula 135 which is essentially identical to D-52, it is shown below: Agfa 135 Warm Tone Developer Water (125F or 52C) 750.0 ml Metol 1.6 grams Sodium Sulfite 24.0 grams Hydroquinone 6.6 grams Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 24.0 grams Potassium Bromide 2.8 grams Water to make 1.0 liter For use dilute 1 part stock with 1 part water. To increase warmth increase bromide up to double the amount shown in the formula. I can not find Agfa 123 in my collection. Another European Agfa formula that may be of some interest is NO.122. This, like Agfa 115, which I posted before, is a Glycin and Hydroquinone developer but the proportions are different. Agfa No.122 Brown Tone Developer Water 1.0 liter Sodium Sulphite, anhydrous 27.5 grams Glycin 5.0 grams Hydroquinone 10.0 grams Potassium Carbonate 50.0 grams Potassium Bromide 5.0 grams Less Bromide makes tones browner, more Bromide makes tones redder. Dilution instructions state that the developer should be used undiluted with normal print exposure and about 1.5 minutes development time for warm black tones on warm tone paper. Dilution can be increased up to 1 to 8 for reddish tones. At this dilution papers require 10 times normal exposure and development time is about 12 minutes. Again, I have no idea of how practical this formula is for modern materials. If anyone tries it please let me know. The source booklet was printed in Berlin c.1936. Internal evidence, such as the use of the term "dish" for a tray, my guess is that it was intended for England. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com Hi, What should I know about this Agfa 120? It can't be available anymore since Agfa gave up on us, unless you have a stash. The warm tone developer I use is AGFA Neutal WA. I'm down to my two 500ml bottles Neutal WA. For me Neutal WA and Agfa Classic and 1:9 Selelium is the wand for making magic. Now Agfa is kaput. Have to get a new wand :( Cheers, Bogdan > The instruction sheets for the two papers I'll be trying (Arista & Forte) > recommend Dektol, why not a warm tone developer (like Agfa 120)? Also, I > goofed and mixed the120 with sodium, not potassium carbonate. Will this > make a big difference? > -LS Signature__________________________________________________________________ Bogdan Karasek Montréal, Québec e-mail: bkarasek@videotron.ca Canada "Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen" "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence" Ludwig Wittgenstein ________________________________________________________________ > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Cheers, > Bogdan Formulate. SignatureThe things we hate most in life often turn out to be a mirror image of ourselves. But if your going to hate someone Matt Clara says its ok to hate him. Findmedirectly - "infoatgregblankphoto.com" >In article <dqKVf.27043$SX5.484803@weber.videotron.net>, >> Now Agfa is kaput. Have to get a new wand :( >> >> Cheers, >> Bogdan > >Formulate. These companies should be made to publish their older information to the web so that it would be accessible but instead their taking their technologies to their graves. == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster www.legacy-photo,com www.xs750.net > These companies should be made to publish their older information to > the web so that it would be accessible but instead their taking their > technologies to their graves. Ah ha! Exactly! To keep manufacturing secrets from going to the grave the Lord created patents. The inventor has to tell all to get protection. The inventor would get no protection if the government [that's us] could get away with it and patents don't exist in communist countries. It is a myth that the patent system is there to protect the noble inventor from the cruel world. There would be no secret syrup for making Coke if it had been patented. >> These companies should be made to publish their older >> information to [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > syrup for making Coke > if it had been patented. Patents were intended to make technical developments public after a time by allowing the inventor to have a monopoly for a relatively short time. In the US its 17 years from the date of issuance although there is some protection as soon as a patent is applied for. Under some circumstances current patents can run for 20 years. One can also protect a process or mechanism as a trade secret. There is a considerable body of law about trade secrets so they are actually afforded considerable protection. The decision as to whether to patent or not depends on the expected life of an idea. For instance, in the past, film manufacturers kept the exact details of emulsion making extremely secret. About 40 years ago the rapidity of the development of new techniques and methods led them to patent such information because it was not expected to be useful much beyond the patent life. It _is_ possible to get around a trade secret but not a patent. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com > It _is_ possible to get around a trade secret but not a patent. Oh, you can get around a patent. I've "invented" around a competitor's patent claims for my clients often enough. A patent is only worth something if the owner is willing to spend enough money on lawyers to defend it. Never get greedy when licensing a patent ... the buyer soon calculates how much he will have to spend on lawyers and engineers to invalidate the patent against how much is asked in royalties. > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> make a big difference? >> -LS Agfa/Ansco 120 is not so much a warm tone developer as a "soft" developer, meant to produce somewhat lower contrast than standard developers. I employs Metol as the sole developing agent. Kodak Selectol Soft is probably nearly identical. Most warm tone developers, like Kodak D-52, are simply less active than neutral/cold tone ones like Dektol/D-72. However, there are some special developers, like the Agfa Hydroquinone and Hydroquinone and Glycin developers I posted a day or so ago, that produce noticably warmer tones than the low activity ones. I am pretty sure Neutol WA is one of these but can't be sure because Agfa MSDS often leave out some ingredients. If you can mix your own, and can obtain Glycin, I suggest trying Agfa/Ansco 115, which I posted earlier. If you can't find it I will post again or send it to you via e-mail. As far as commercially packaged developers, Ilford now has a warm tone and a cold tone developer sold under the Harmon name. I have no idea of what is in these but they are certainly worth a try. Check the Ilfordphoto web site for details. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com When the hydroquinone only formula I posted earlier in this thread made no discernable difference in my neutral toned paper, I added more carbonate to shorten the developing times & now I can't tell the difference between it and Dektol. (Begging the question: what does metol do?) -LS > Agfa/Ansco 120 is not so much a warm tone developer as a "soft" > developer, meant to produce somewhat lower contrast than standard [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > what is in these but they are certainly worth a try. Check the Ilfordphoto > web site for details. > (Begging the question: what does metol do?) It help initiate the development (reduction) cascade. It also enables processing at lower temperature than possible with most other chemicals. Lastly, it help develop film speed by raising the to of the film. == John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster www.legacy-photo,com www.xs750.net > When the hydroquinone only formula I posted earlier in > this thread made no discernable difference in my neutral > toned paper, I added more carbonate to shorten the > developing times & now I can't tell the difference between > it and Dektol. (Begging the question: what does metol do?) > -LS Snipping... Metol is a very efficient electron transfer agent. Hydroquinone by itself is a very low activity developer. When used at quite high pH it is suitable for very high contrast developers but cab be a fine grain (and brown tone) developer at lower pH provide one is willing to deal with the great emulsion speed loss caused by its inefficiency. In most Metol-Hydroquinone formulas the Metol is the primary developing agent. The two agents in combination are super-additive over a range of pH, meaning the resulting densities are greater than either agent would produce by itself. The combination also has a mutual regenerating effect. At low pH, as in D-76, the regenerating effect exists but the super additive effect does not. D-76 is nearly as effective with the Hydroquinone left out. Metol, OTOH, works well by itself and is an effective developer even at neutral pH (as in D-25). Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com |
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