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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2006Jobo ATL-2300 chemical pumping error
I have recently acquired and plumbed in the ATL-2300 and am getting an intermittent error, occasionally a this doesn't occur, but more often than not at least one of the 3 baths of E6 chemicals are not pumped across into the drum. I am using the front bank of tanks and tanks 1-3. The machine makes a bleeping sound, by pressing "Start" it then pumps the chemicals across with no difficulty whatsoever. This problem is causing streaking on some sheets of film (mostly doing 5x4 E6) and clearly isn't operating as an Auto machine as I have to be on standby to go and press the button! I have checked seals on lids of chemical bottles, smeared thick Silicone grease around the top of the o-rings on the bottle, replaced the red seal on each of the tank lids, but still the problem recurs. FWIW I have tried Autofill options and where I set the chemical volume manually. This seems to have no effect on the problem. Those that have experience of these machines please could you advise on what I should be checking to rectify the problem? Prior to this I have been using an ATL-1000 which has been fine with the tanks I am using now. > I have checked seals on lids of chemical bottles, smeared thick > Silicone grease around the top of the o-rings on the bottle, replaced > the red seal on each of the tank lids, but still the problem recurs. This could be a problem with the electronics, the air pump, or the air distributor that switches the air supply over to the next bottle. If the problem occurs, do you still hear the pump running? If there is silence at the moment when you should be hearing the usual purring of the pump, I'd check the relay that controls it. Ralf  SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses Thankyou Ralf I haven't used the machine for 10 days since I have been so cross and frustrated! I seem to remember that a very small bit of fluid is pumped (hence streaking where this has splashed onto film and given more development), it gives up the ghost and so pressing the start button to override relay then gets the rest across. The frustrating thing is that it hardly ever seems to happen when using water in the chemical bottles to fault-find and with no film in the tank. Lulling me into a false sense of security, it then recurs once I am using E6 chemicals and film...... The fact that it is intermittent would indicate electrical fault of some sort wouldn't it? If so and being unfamiliar with these Jobo machines, where is the relay situated? I have found, but not yet checked the other items. Will endeavour to do this later tonight. > Thankyou Ralf > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > machines, where is the relay situated? I have found, but not yet > checked the other items. Will endeavour to do this later tonight. Do you have the Atl manual? The reason I ask its probably available online as a PDF. SignatureThe things we hate most in life often turn out to be a mirror image of ourselves. But if your going to hate someone Matt Clara says its ok to hate him. Findmedirectly - "infoatgregblankphoto.com" > Do you have the Atl manual? Yes I do. Plus a disk directory with the complete service documentation downloaded from JOBO USA. Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses > > Do you have the Atl manual? > > Yes I do. Plus a disk directory with the complete service documentation > downloaded from JOBO USA. > > Ralf I thought I was asking Baxter..... SignatureThe things we hate most in life often turn out to be a mirror image of ourselves. But if your going to hate someone Matt Clara says its ok to hate him. Findmedirectly - "infoatgregblankphoto.com" > I thought I was asking Baxter..... Reminds me of my grandmother: "You better let the horses do the thinking. They have bigger heads!" :-) Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses Thanks Greg and Ralf Been night time here in the UK, it is now 0515... Yes I do have the original ATL-2300 manual and also the more up-to-date pdf from the JOBO website. However no mention is made of techinical faults such as this, only about the effect of processing on the different film types. Once I have the machine in pieces, I shall now centre my investigation upon the IC sockets and the sensor wire. Although if it is the latter, I haven't any idea what i might find or how to rectify. Shall cross this bridge when I get to it! Baxter > least one of the 3 baths of E6 chemicals are not pumped > across into the drum Is it always the same one? > The machine makes a bleeping sound, by pressing "Start" it then pumps > the chemicals across with no difficulty whatsoever. I take it the sequence is: o Start processing o Processes normally until - o Time for chemical #n and then the Jobo beeps o Press "Start" and the Jobo completes the processing Is this correct? Does the Jobo have level sensors to detect if it is out of a chemical? I confess I do not have an ATL, but I have designed quite a few automatic blood chemistry analyzers. There is a lot of overlap between clinical chemistry and photography. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm Thanks Nicholas The bottle number on which the fault occurs varies, sometimes just a single one (1, 2 or 3) and sometimes any two, or occasionally all 3 - or even none! It only beeps having correctly moved to the next stage and when trying to pump that particular bottle. Pressing the 'Start" button then activates the pumping process correctly. There aren't level sensors in the bottles. You program the amount of fluid and it performs a simple subtraction process to determine if future runs are possible. I fill with the correct amount of fluid for each run. I have tried altering fluid volume from 1000ml and 700ml. Also by trying using Autofill and "Chemical volume to pump" I have established that it ought not to be a logic fault in this part of the processor. Baxter > The bottle number on which the fault occurs varies, sometimes just a > single one (1, 2 or 3) and sometimes any two, or occasionally all 3 - [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I seem to remember that a very small bit of fluid is pumped Whatever is malfunctioning should be something that is common to all three chemicals. It sounds to me like the Jobo starts the action, detects something has gone wrong, and beeps for help. Pushing the start button tells it to try again and this time things go OK. Before the Jobo malfunctions can you hear the pump running for second or two to pump 'the very small bit of fluid'? Or is this a spurt of the previous chemical that may be dispensed by the valves actuating. Is the fluid selection valve a rotary valve or are there valves for each fluid? Is there a sensor to detect fluid going through the pump/tubing? Do you get air bubbles in the tubing? SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm > Whatever is malfunctioning should be something that is common to all > three chemicals. I suspect the pump or the electronics/relay controlling it. I've had trouble with control signals in my ATL's caused by the IC sockets. They've used the cheap spring type sockets instead of the better ones with the round holes. These buggers cause the same kind of problems that haunted my Amiga computers from the same era. Speaking of Commodore, early JOBO ATL's use the 6502 of Commodore PET fame. > It sounds to me like the Jobo starts the action, detects something > has gone wrong, and beeps for help. Pushing the start button tells > it to try again and this time things go OK. Exactly. > Is the fluid selection valve a rotary valve or are there valves > for each fluid? It is a rotary device. > Is there a sensor to detect fluid going through the pump/tubing? See my other message. Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses Siilly old me <fotoralf@gmx.de> wrote: > I suspect the pump or the electronics/relay controlling it. I've had > trouble with control signals in my ATL's caused by the IC sockets. > They've used the cheap spring type sockets instead of the better ones > with the round holes. I should have mentioned that pushing all IC's firmly down in their sockets sometimes helps, albeit only as a temporary measure. For a permanent fix, I used to solder decent sockets right on to the old ones. Unsoldering the old sockets requires a lot of skill and the right tools or you'll do unrepairable damage to the PC board. Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses Thanks Nicholas and Ralf That will keep me busy - until Christmas! Will get cracking once I have the children in bed. I am very glad I found this forum, I have had no luck when posting tales of these woes elsewhere. Baxter > I am very glad I found this forum, I have had no luck when posting > tales of these woes elsewhere. Oh, thanks. We old buggers are always happy if someone tells us that we can still be of some use. ;-) Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses Well I have been a bit daunted by the complexity of the machine, so have decided to print out the helpful procedures at the Jobo USA website so that I might minimise self-inflicted damage through dissembly. All ICs seemed to be seated correctly and not any obvious damage to pipes/connections. Haven't found the wire sensor yet. The other fact that I forgot to post, but on reflection would seem to be relevant is that when performing a cleaning routine, the fault has never occurred i.e. the bottles are emptied completely irrespective of the volume of water I have put in. Baxter > The other fact that I forgot to post, but on reflection would seem to > be relevant is that when performing a cleaning routine, the fault has > never occurred i.e. the bottles are emptied completely irrespective of > the volume of water I have put in. Ha! Here we are! During the cleaning routine, the flow detection is disabled. Here's what happens: the pump begins to work, a little liquid is pumped while the detection time window lasts, then the program is interrupted because the machine thinks there's no liquid. No while you run to push the start button again, the little soup that there is plays havoc with your film. So, its either the sensor wire or, just as likely, an IC contact on the control board. Things should be a lot easier now. Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses > > The other fact that I forgot to post, but on reflection would seem to > > be relevant is that when performing a cleaning routine, the fault has [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Ralf Some interesting images Ralf where are these taken? http://www.fotoralf.de/Bilder/Mallorca/htm/0130812.htm SignatureThe things we hate most in life often turn out to be a mirror image of ourselves. Better not to hate. Findmedirectly - "infoatgregblankphoto.com" > Some interesting images Ralf where are these taken? > > http://www.fotoralf.de/Bilder/Mallorca/htm/0130812.htm All over the island. The one linked above on the way from Arta to Betlem. Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses > I should have mentioned that pushing all IC's firmly down in their > sockets sometimes helps, albeit only as a temporary measure. > > For a permanent fix, I used to solder decent sockets right on to the old > ones. Unsoldering the old sockets requires a lot of skill and the right > tools or you'll do unrepairable damage to the PC board. Couple things to help un-solder IC sockets: 1. make sure you have sufficient heat. When I do an electronics project, I usually have two or three solder sticks heating, and I alternate between them. 2. Get the major amount of solder out with a solder sucker-- not the squeeze-bulb type, but the spring-loaded plunger type ("Solder-pult"?) 3. Get the rest of the solder out with solder wick. 4. Use a small screwdriver (Xcelite brand "greenie"!) to pry the socket from one end while you heat the pins at that end. But still, "Unsoldering the old sockets requires a lot of skill and the right tools or you'll do unrepairable damage to the PC board." Good luck! SignatureKen Hart kwhart@aec.nu Today I have been working on the processor. I stripped it down so that I could access the ICs and check that they were all correctly seated. All seemed to be firmly in their holders and no signs of damage to the circuit boards. I also removed the top cover so that the flow sensor could be checked. There were no obvious errors here. I tightened up the top snesor with the white wire and by shining a torch from below was able to see that the wire was free of corrosion/debris. The 3 pronged lower sensor with the 2 blue wires proved more problematic. I couldn't see a way to get in to check if the wire was corroded. There was a small amount of scaling on the outside, but I have no idea what the situation is within the black plastic moulding. After reassembly I ran with water in front tanks 1,2 and 3. Once at correct temp, the problem recurred with bottle 1. The air pump activated for 1-2s, it sounded like some fluid was transferred, then the error alarm activated. I pressed "start" to clear the error, the pump activated once more and the bottle was emptied. The rinses were fine, then repeat of error on bottles 2 and 3. Again cleared by pressing "start". I didn't cry "Full House", ............ but did nearly cry........ so frustrating. Clearly the processor is not usable in this state and I would be extremely grateful if anyone can offer help as to how to rectify the issue. Presumably I need to be able to strip down the arm assembly so that I can try to get inside the manifold to look at the lower sensor with the blue wires. I assume that replacement parts are at a premium price and thus are a deterrent. Failing that, I shall have to revert to using my ATL-1000 which can only be construed as progress in that the streaking will be absent. Many thanks and sorry if it looks as if I have wittered on. It has been a long and fruitless day. Someone in this thread mentioned that a dipswitch can be thrown to bypass the liquid sensor error detection. Does this work? SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics, Photonics, Informatics. Remove blanks to reply: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Thanks Nicholas, The dip switches were on a different, earlier model. On mine, I think this is all software controlled, I didn't see a bank of dip switches when I had the machine in pieces; but am happy to be advised where to find them and what to do. Being out of my depth here, I hesitate to suppose another option might be to try to link the two white and blue wired sensors. Baxter > Being out of my depth here, I hesitate to suppose another option might > be to try to link the two white and blue wired sensors. Might work as long as there's no routine checking for a short-circuit between the two on power-on. In this case, you'd need a switch and close it after the processor has gone through the power-on routine. Just to be on the safe side, I wouldn't connect the two wires directly but rather through a resistor. Something between 1 and 10 kiloohms should do nicely. Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses Thanks Ralf It will not be necessary as I have now fixed the fault having spoken to a very helpful lady on the JOBO Analogue Support desk in Germany. The fix is as follows Connect machine to power, but leave switched off. Press Enter, Start and Power on buttons simultaneously. This brings up the Service Menu on which there are a great many things - 14 items I think. Scroll down to No 11- Fill sensor. Press Enter, then toggle using up or down arrow to change from With to W/O. Press Enter. Press Power Off button. Repair Complete!!!! I have just run a test with same conditions as last night and the machine pumped all chemicals in all bottles through with no errors. It does mean that I have to fill with correct volume of chemicals for each run. However this was part of my routine anyway in order to conserve E6 chemicals. For those with ATL2X00 machines, this Service menu could be the place to start when things go wrong. I shall look there first in preference to experiencing similar hassle to yesterdays palaver. I only hope that I haven't written this in haste! Baxter > It will not be necessary as I have now fixed the fault having spoken to > a very helpful lady on the JOBO Analogue Support desk in Germany. I know her. If only there were someone like her in every company. Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses > Press Enter, Start and Power on buttons simultaneously. This brings up > the Service Menu on which there are a great many things - 14 items I > think. > > Scroll down to No 11- Fill sensor. Press Enter, then toggle using up or > down arrow to change from With to W/O. Press Enter. Great ... that is the way it is done on more modern equipment with non-volatile memory. See if there is a diagnostics section in the service menu ... if Jobo did the software correctly it should be possible to display the status of the liquid fill sensor on the display, this lets you fiddle with it and find what it is that is causing the signal to drop. > > The bottle number on which the fault occurs varies, sometimes just a > > single one (1, 2 or 3) and sometimes any two, or occasionally all 3 - [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Do you get air bubbles in the tubing? The Atl 3 is set by the user to with draw a given preset amount of chemistry it assumes you have at least that amount in the tank. It also has a default that if left unset will pump from the tank the amount for a given drum selection SignatureThe things we hate most in life often turn out to be a mirror image of ourselves. But if your going to hate someone Matt Clara says its ok to hate him. Findmedirectly - "infoatgregblankphoto.com" > There aren't level sensors in the bottles. I don't have a 2300 but I've had a number of ATL's in operation. My current one is an ATL 2+. Their innards are all basically identical, give or take a row of bottles etc. There is a wire pieced through the hose leading to the lift. This wire is used for a resistance measurement in order to determine if liquid is flowing through the hose. Now, if during the pumping step, no liquid is detected at this position within a certain time span (e.g. empty bottle, lid no closed...) or if liquid detection ends too early indicating that either there hasn't been enough soup in the bottle or pumping doesn't work as it should, an alarm is triggered and processing is interrupted. This alarm can then be acknowledged by pressing the start button after which the machine makes a renewed attempt at pumping. Apparently, this second attempt in your case delivers enough liquid for processing to continue, but the damage (streaks) has already been done by having the tank rotate with too little liquid for a time. Get the idea? Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses > There is a wire pieced through the hose leading to the lift. This wire > is used for a resistance measurement in order to determine if liquid is > flowing through the hose. Bingo -- that is where I would say the problem lies. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm > Bingo -- that is where I would say the problem lies. I'd look at the IC sockets first. Just as likely and easier to fix. Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses >> There is a wire pieced through the hose leading to the lift. This wire >> is used for a resistance measurement in order to determine if liquid is >> flowing through the hose. > Bingo -- that is where I would say the problem lies. Yep. And (at least at the ATL3) you can deactivate this !&%$§&$% feature. It is dip switch #3, visible when you remove the three knobs (On-Off, Speed and 25xx-volume) and the cover under it. IIRC it has to in the lower position to deactivate the feature. Additionally, this allows that you can use different volumes for different steps. I regularly use B&W-developer 1+1 or 1+3, so the volume of the developer is much larger than that of the fixer. For one 135/36 in a 2513 (170ml) I use 250 or 500ml developer, so I set the volume to 330 or 470ml, but fill the fixer-bottles only with 170ml. This will pump some excess air into the fixer bottles, but who cares... Martin > Yep. And (at least at the ATL3) you can deactivate this !&%$§&$% > feature. It is dip switch #3, visible when you remove the three knobs > (On-Off, Speed and 25xx-volume) and the cover under it. IIRC it has to > in the lower position to deactivate the feature. But then, as I understand this, the bottles will be emptied completely in the first run, won't they? So, no way of filling them with enough soup for two runs anymore, right? Well, nothing keeps us from putting a little SPST switch into the front plate. Most ATL's should be well out of warranty, by now. :-) Do you know anything about the functions of the remaining DIP switches? Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses >> Yep. And (at least at the ATL3) you can deactivate this !&%$§&$% >> feature. It is dip switch #3, visible when you remove the three knobs >> (On-Off, Speed and 25xx-volume) and the cover under it. IIRC it has to >> in the lower position to deactivate the feature. > But then, as I understand this, the bottles will be emptied completely > in the first run, won't they? So, no way of filling them with enough > soup for two runs anymore, right? Right. My workflow is like that: fill the bottles with the correct volumes for the drum on the machine and start the run. As soon as the developer bottle is empty, I fill it again for the next drum. The fresh developer should have +/- 1 Celcius tolerance, this will level in the time it takes to finish the running batch (about 25 min). I use everything one-shot except the second fixer (I regularly use twobath-fixer), this one will be put into the first fixer bottle. > Well, nothing keeps us from putting a little SPST switch into the front > plate. Most ATL's should be well out of warranty, by now. :-) > Do you know anything about the functions of the remaining DIP switches? Only the information found in the ATL2/ATL3 "service-manual". This one looks like a collection of unsorted scrap with global information about the ATLs. The most interesting parts are missing... but I remember something about dip-switches, you can put the machine into a test mode and recall counters and perform a relay test. Martin |
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