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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / April 2006

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Question on film

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cwertman@yahoo.com - 21 Mar 2006 05:16 GMT
I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
care if its touchy in developing or shooting, no grain is good grain ?

I have read Agfa 25 fits the bill, but also have read Agfa is Kaput....

What else is there out there ? rollei 100 made by ? I have read that
its shap, less of a "modern" film, but Im looking for something RAZOR,
slow is fine....as sharp as possible is the requirmment...

(Oh in 120)

Thanks

Chris
John - 21 Mar 2006 06:09 GMT
>I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
>and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Chris

You're asking for opinions so here's mine.

TMX-100, EI 32, D-23 1:1, 12 min. 70F.

Yes, APX25 was the best film made and yes, Agfa is kaput.

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    www.legacy-photo,com
    www.xs750.net
Jean-David Beyer - 21 Mar 2006 13:14 GMT
>> I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
>> and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> TMX-100, EI 32, D-23 1:1, 12 min. 70F.

I partly agree. If you use D-23, John is probably right, though I do not
think D-23 is sharp enough, probably due to all that sulphite. For 4x5 and
up it is probably acceptable. For 35mm, it may be too mushy for your taste.

I think TMX (100) is the sharpest film for practical use in a hand-held
camera. I prefer Xtol developer 1+1, and for that, an EI of 50 is perfectly
good (the EI is affected somewhat by the developer used). I develop for the
time Kodak recommend, using a diffusion enlarger. If you use a condenser
enlarger, you will probably want to develop for a bit less time.

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cwertman@yahoo.com - 21 Mar 2006 14:26 GMT
Last night surfing I found Efke 25 and Rollei 25 , any word on these ?
the Efke is cheap. $3.00 a roll cheap..."supposedly" it is not a
"modern" film and supposedly has a high silver content.

And while I know there is much heated debate (on the net) about silver
content old stly vs new stlye film etc etc.

What I am looking for is pictures like my grandfather shot, he isnt
around anymore to ask but his photos were absolutley amazing, the B&W
was so crisp with no grain visible

Another question on what you and another were saying about developing,
I apologize for my ABSOLUTE ignornace when you say a 1:1 dilution , I
mixed the developer with 1 gal of water as the instructions said , do I
then mix say 1 pint of that solution with 1 pint of water again ?

Do I want a slower/longer developing process or a quicker one to avoid
the graininess ?

Also is it better to do this in a Tray or Tank for clarity ?

Many Thanks

Chris

> >> I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
> >> and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>  /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey    http://counter.li.org
>  ^^-^^ 07:05:01 up 5 days, 8:16, 3 users, load average: 4.34, 4.21, 4.12
Frank Pittel - 21 Mar 2006 15:43 GMT
About six months ago I decided to give Efke-25 a try. Keeping with the
"old" film approach I got some tfx-2 from photographers formulary. I used
a semi-stand development and am at time still amazed by the results. When
printing 4x5 negatives on 11x14 paper the prints are painfully sharp.

One thing to keep in mind is that Efke-25 and Efke-50 are Ortho-Panchromatic
meaning that they have very little sensitivity to red. This means you need
to be carefull with red filters!! :-) After giving the film a try I've
decided to switch to it from Tmax-100.

: Last night surfing I found Efke 25 and Rollei 25 , any word on these ?
: the Efke is cheap. $3.00 a roll cheap..."supposedly" it is not a
: "modern" film and supposedly has a high silver content.

: And while I know there is much heated debate (on the net) about silver
: content old stly vs new stlye film etc etc.

: What I am looking for is pictures like my grandfather shot, he isnt
: around anymore to ask but his photos were absolutley amazing, the B&W
: was so crisp with no grain visible

: Another question on what you and another were saying about developing,
: I apologize for my ABSOLUTE ignornace when you say a 1:1 dilution , I
: mixed the developer with 1 gal of water as the instructions said , do I
: then mix say 1 pint of that solution with 1 pint of water again ?

: Do I want a slower/longer developing process or a quicker one to avoid
: the graininess ?

: Also is it better to do this in a Tray or Tank for clarity ?

: Many Thanks

: Chris

: > >> I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
: > >> and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
: >  /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey    http://counter.li.org
: >  ^^-^^ 07:05:01 up 5 days, 8:16, 3 users, load average: 4.34, 4.21, 4.12

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Rod Smith - 21 Mar 2006 17:10 GMT
> Last night surfing I found Efke 25 and Rollei 25 , any word on these ?
> the Efke is cheap. $3.00 a roll cheap..."supposedly" it is not a
> "modern" film and supposedly has a high silver content.

I've shot a few rolls of Efke. I liked the Efke 25 a lot, but the 100 was
too grainy for its speed, IMHO. I haven't shot more Efke simply because I
decided to standardize on Ilford Pan F+ (an ISO 50 film) as my low-speed
film.

> What I am looking for is pictures like my grandfather shot, he isnt
> around anymore to ask but his photos were absolutley amazing, the B&W
> was so crisp with no grain visible

This gets into a lot of subjective issues, or at least issues that are
hard to articulate. What you liked about your grandfather's photos might
or might not be very dependent on the film used. If it was film-dependent,
then the Efke, as an old emulsion design, is likely to help you reproduce
that look. Foma films also have an old-fashioned look, although they're
faster (ISOs 100, 200, and 400) and grainier than the Efke 25 (but the
Foma 100 is much less grainy than the Efke 100). If you can find any,
Svema films (from Ukraine) also have an old-fashioned look, but I know of
no official source for this film in the US. Among Western and Japanese
film makers (Kodak, Ilford, Fuji), I'd avoid T-grain films (Kodak T-Max,
Ilford Delta, and Fuji Acros) and go for the older emulsions (Plus-X,
Tri-X, FP4+, HP5+), but even they are likely to have a more modern look
than the Efke, Foma, or Svema films will produce. OTOH, because you
mentioned lack of grain, slow T-grain films (Kodak T-Max 100, Ilford Delta
100, and Fuji Acros 100) are worth mentioning as being very fine-grained
films, which just goes to show how much depends on what you want --
T-grain films might or might not be appropriate.

> Another question on what you and another were saying about developing,
> I apologize for my ABSOLUTE ignornace when you say a 1:1 dilution , I
> mixed the developer with 1 gal of water as the instructions said , do I
> then mix say 1 pint of that solution with 1 pint of water again ?

You mixed what's called a "stock solution." With most powdered developers
(D-76, XTOL, etc.) you mix a stock solution, which you may then optionally
further dilute. A "1:1" or "1+1" dilution means to mix one part of the
stock solution with one part of water. For instance, to get 300ml of
working solution you'd mix 150ml of stock solution with 150ml of water.
It's often possible, and sometimes necessary, to dilute far more than
this. For instance, Rodinal (which is sold as a liquid) is typically
diluted at 1+25 to 1+100 -- one part of the bottled developer in 25 or 100
parts of water.

> Do I want a slower/longer developing process or a quicker one to avoid
> the graininess ?

With most developers, grain is reduced by using a less dilute developer,
which typically requires developing for a shorter period of time. You can
also adjust graininess by selecting the most appropriate developer. For
instance, Rodinal has a reputation for producing large grain, whereas XTOL
is generally considered a (relatively) fine-grained developer. (DO NOT use
XTOL with Svema film, though; I tried a couple of times and the results
were horrific. XTOL works nicely with Foma films, but I've never tried it
with Efke films.)

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Mike King - 22 Mar 2006 03:09 GMT
One question not asked reading this far into the thread...
What size camera do you plan to use?  (And what size camera did "Grandpa"
use?)

OK, I guess that's TWO questions.

Some of the "best" grainless images I ever saw were shot on glass plates
from a "Bicycle" camera (Quarter Plate? before my time!!).

Some of the sharpest prints I ever saw were HUGE 4x6 foot enlargements from
4x5 Tech Pan negatives shot by Woody Walters in a Florida Swamp.

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darkroommike

> Last night surfing I found Efke 25 and Rollei 25 , any word on these ?
> the Efke is cheap. $3.00 a roll cheap..."supposedly" it is not a
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> >  /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey    http://counter.li.org
> >  ^^-^^ 07:05:01 up 5 days, 8:16, 3 users, load average: 4.34, 4.21, 4.12
John - 22 Mar 2006 07:04 GMT
>Last night surfing I found Efke 25 and Rollei 25 , any word on these ?
>the Efke is cheap. $3.00 a roll cheap..."supposedly" it is not a
>"modern" film and supposedly has a high silver content.
>
>And while I know there is much heated debate (on the net) about silver
>content old stly vs new stlye film etc etc.

The differences in silver content between two films are inperceptible
and do not add or detract from the quality of the image. It's
plausible that a higher film speed can be attained with both larger
grain and higher silver content.

>What I am looking for is pictures like my grandfather shot, he isnt
>around anymore to ask but his photos were absolutley amazing, the B&W
>was so crisp with no grain visible

Any negatives ? Any idea what format he was using ?

>Another question on what you and another were saying about developing,
>I apologize for my ABSOLUTE ignornace when you say a 1:1 dilution , I
>mixed the developer with 1 gal of water as the instructions said , do I
>then mix say 1 pint of that solution with 1 pint of water again ?

Exactly. Technically it's 1+1=working solution.

>Do I want a slower/longer developing process or a quicker one to avoid
>the graininess ?

Medium. 10~20 minutes is fine.

>Also is it better to do this in a Tray or Tank for clarity ?

Depends on the film format and volume.

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    www.legacy-photo,com
    www.xs750.net
tlianza - 21 Mar 2006 12:47 GMT
Hi Chris,

Two points about "sharp", first it is highly subjective. Second, it is more
a matter of processing than film type. You need to minimize agitation while
processing to build up a good edge effect.  In the post by John Douglas  ,
he gives an example of using a relatively dilute traditional developer with
a rather modern film.  Note that his recommendation is to over expose the
film and develop for a relatively long period.  As a photoscientist, I agree
that this is good advice both for tonality and sharpness.  I would only add
that you need to agitate far less.  The problem with this technique is that
it is difficult to achieve uniform development.  If I were you, I might also
look at Fuji Acros.  I've never used it myself, but I am ready to get off my
rear end and start shooting black and white again after the spring starts to
arrive.  This morning it's 24degrees F.  A little too cold for an old duffer
like me..

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603.681.0315 x232 Tel
603.681.0316 Fax

>I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
> and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Chris
Dave the Guy - 29 Mar 2006 22:42 GMT
I'm head over heals for Acros 100.

How less is far less agitation?
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 30 Mar 2006 00:02 GMT
> I'm head over heals for Acros 100.  How less is far less agitation?

 Less agitation need not mean less time agitating. A swirling
of the tank can be a very gentle method. Rotary processing, vertical
or horizontal, swirls the film.
 After start I invert two or three times each two or three
minutes; slow inversions. The 500ml in a 1000ml tank receives
quite a churning.
 If less agitation is better than none should be best. Those that
use or have used STAND development should speak up. Dan
David Nebenzahl - 30 Mar 2006 00:15 GMT
dan.c.quinn@att.net spake thus:

>> I'm head over heals for Acros 100.  How less is far less agitation?

[...]

>   If less agitation is better than none should be best. Those that
> use or have used STAND development should speak up. Dan

This statement shows *unbelievable* ignorance. Who wants to field this one?

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Dave the Guy - 03 Apr 2006 14:50 GMT
I may be showing my ignorance, but I'm guessing that "STAND"
development means letting the film and chems sit still in the tank for
x amount of minutes?

I did that once because I got distracted and 3/4 of my 120 roll was
more developed than the other 1/4.  *aaaargh.

Just to clarify, let's all take a refresher course (namely to benefit
slow learners like me) and define the purpose of agitation.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 03 Apr 2006 15:10 GMT
> I may be showing my ignorance, but I'm guessing that "STAND"
> development means letting the film and chems sit still in the tank for
> x amount of minutes?

Yes.  From x minutes to x days.  Stand development can lead to bromide
streaking so some agitation is needed.

> I did that once because I got distracted and 3/4 of my 120 roll was
> more developed than the other 1/4.  *aaaargh.

I'll lay money that the tank was only 3/4 full of developer: this is
a common error if this newsgroup is any guide.  Not that I would
do anything like that myself.  Cough.

> Just to clarify, let's all take a refresher course (namely to benefit
> slow learners like me) and define the purpose of agitation.

As the chemicals do their thing with the film they get used up.  Agitation
brings new chemical solution to the film.  Without agitation the
used chemicals stay next to the film doing nothing and not letting
fresh chemicals at the film.  Bromide inhibits development and is
produced when developer changes light-exposed crystals of silver bromide
into miniature brillo pads of silver.  With no agitation the bromide
falls through the solution inhibiting the development of the film
below it.  Low agitation developing with dilute developer is an attempt
to bring up shadow detail in under exposed negatives without blocking
the highlights: the build up of bromide and depletion of developer
next to the highlight areas stops development while the absence of
bromide and availability of fresh developer next to the shadow areas lets
development continue.  A variation is 'water bath development'.
See Adams, Ansel "The Negative".

Everybody has their own agitation style and the type of agitation
required varies with the film and developer.  See the manufacturer's
data sheets.

                    *          *           *

Quivers down my backbone
I got the shakes in my thigh bone
I got the shivers in my knee bone
Shakin' all over
You make me shake and I like it
Dave the Guy - 03 Apr 2006 15:27 GMT
Wow, how nice was that?  In any other photo forum the answer could have
seriously been:

"Why are you still interested in film?  I can get 500000mp of
information via stitching with ZERO grain and no need to worry about
agitation and development times!  Get with the times and face it man,
your precious film is no good for anything!"

Or something of that sort. (thanks for the very informative reply).
David Nebenzahl - 03 Apr 2006 20:16 GMT
Dave the Guy spake thus:

> Wow, how nice was that?  In any other photo forum the answer could have
> seriously been:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Or something of that sort. (thanks for the very informative reply).

Don't worry; that kind of thing is creeping in here more and more.

"Man the barricades!"

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cgrady - 21 Mar 2006 14:19 GMT
It has been several years since I did much darkroom work, but the best
film that I ever saw was Ilford Pan F (Now called Ilford Pan F Plus).
It is available in 120 size from helixcamera.com for $2.99 per roll.  I
did a lot of film over the years, but Ilford Pan F was the only film I
ever found that was "viritually" grainless.
Clint H.
John - 22 Mar 2006 06:58 GMT
>It has been several years since I did much darkroom work, but the best
>film that I ever saw was Ilford Pan F (Now called Ilford Pan F Plus).
>It is available in 120 size from helixcamera.com for $2.99 per roll.  I
>did a lot of film over the years, but Ilford Pan F was the only film I
>ever found that was "viritually" grainless.

PanF + is certainly one of my favorite films. Possibly better than
APX25. I just never used it much as it was only available in the
smaller formats.

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    www.legacy-photo,com
    www.xs750.net
Richard Knoppow - 21 Mar 2006 14:35 GMT
> I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
> and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Chris

       If what you want is absense of grain and high resolution use
100T-Max developed in either Microdol-X or Perceptol (they are
virtually identical) at full sttrength. Sharpness is another issue. The
eye interprets high contrast edges as sharpness.  Kodak invented the
term "acutance" for this effect. High acutance pictures will give the
illusion of sharpness even when there is not really very much detail
present. A sharp grain pattern can also give the illusion of sharpness
even when the underlying image is a bit blurry. Both of these effects
have been widely used in 35mm photography where both film and lens
performance is often limited.
   Acutance effefts are produced on the negative by using developers
which tend to exagerate the contrast as sharp transitions between dark
and light. The mechanism for this has to with the generation of
developer reaction products right at the transition. The developer must
have certain properties to exagerate acutance. Those which are suitable
are generally fairly highly diluted and have relatively sulfite in
them. The sulfite tends to prevent the reaction products which are
responsible for the acutance effect from being formed.
   The extra-fine-grain developers I recommended above do not produce
much acutance effect, nor, of cource, do they produce a sharp grain
pattern. What they offer is relatively high resolution and smoothness
of tone rendition both due to the relative absence of grain. Images
from 35mm cameras can look soft when photographed with a fine grain
film and fine grain developer because the lens itself is not too sharp.
Where excellent lenses are used the image will appear to be sharp plus
the tone rendition will begin to have the smoothness usually produced
by larger formats.
   Tabluar grain films, like Kodak T-Max, Ilford Delta, and Fuji
Acros, have inherently finer grain for a given speed than conventional
emulsions. I can't say about Delta and Fuji, but I have experimented
with 100T-Max and Perceptol and find it about as fine grained as Kodak
Technical Pan in Technidol developer. Technical Pan, now discontinued,
was a special film, a normally rather high contrast film which produced
extremely fine grain with normal contrast when developed in a special
developer. T-Max in Perceptol or Microdol-X, is virtually as fine
grain, is not fussy about contrast, and has around 3 to 4 times the
speed.

--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@ix.netcom.com
cwertman@yahoo.com - 21 Mar 2006 21:08 GMT
THANK You !

"Acutance effefts are produced on the negative by using developers
which tend to exagerate the contrast as sharp transitions between dark
and light."

Upon further thought and reflection between the charpness, a large
portion of the look is the high contrast,

On that note which of the above films has the highest contrast ?
UC - 21 Mar 2006 15:05 GMT
Neopan 100 Acros or Ilford Delta 100 in Paterson FX-39.

> I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
> and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Chris
shoppa@trailing-edge.com - 21 Mar 2006 18:02 GMT
> I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
> and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> (Oh in 120)

If you're coming into this for the first time and are so completely
obsessed with not seeing grain, you might try Ilford XP2 B&W film. It
is available in 120 rollfilm.

After you've done this a few times you will probably discover that
there's a lot more to a photograph than "no grain". But as you're new,
the XP2 is a very forgiving film in addition to not having the
traditional grain structure of a B&W negative.

"Razor sharp" and "no grain" are somewhat exclusive in my experience.
Grain is not all bad.

Tim.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 21 Mar 2006 19:45 GMT
> SHARPEST possible film ... no grain is good grain ? ... 120

TMax 100 in Xtol is probably the sharpest common combination
if resolution is the criteria.  TMax100 in Microdol is the
least grain, but I doubt that in 120 it will make any difference.
Ilford sells clones of the Kodak products.

After that there are all the combinations that 'look sharp'
to somebody: there seems to be no consensus regarding these
films and developers.

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shoppa@trailing-edge.com - 21 Mar 2006 19:57 GMT
> After that there are all the combinations that 'look sharp'
> to somebody: there seems to be no consensus regarding these
> films and developers.

I myself love big gray areas filled with nice big salt-and-pepper
grain. I like real texture (as opposed to the "fake texture" of grain)
and sharp acutance at edges as well. But the number of people who show
up in this newsgroup asking for how to get no grain seem to have me
outnumbered.

Sort of like when my kids start making wishes, and I wish for something
I already have. They tell me that I can't do that. But I tell them that
I've already got it and I'm happy!

Tim.
cwertman@yahoo.com - 21 Mar 2006 20:28 GMT
I think, the consunsus is, isnt a lack of grain I am looking for but
rather the "sharp acutance" of wich you speak.

I HATE on fast color film where it looks like its been shot through a
sandstorm, I have som 30 reels of Europe that were shot in 800 when it
first hit the makret, ugh....everyhting looks like its in a haze or
sandstorm, like monet's...
shoppa@trailing-edge.com - 21 Mar 2006 22:18 GMT
> I think, the consunsus is, isnt a lack of grain I am looking for but
> rather the "sharp acutance" of wich you speak.

Getting that requires more than just the "right brand film". The
weather, the wind, the lighting, filtering/polarizers, lens flare, lens
quality, lack of camera shake during the exposure, proper development,
and making a good print on the right contrast paper with the right
dodging and burning all can be more important than the "right film".

> I HATE on fast color film where it looks like its been shot through a
> sandstorm, I have som 30 reels of Europe that were shot in 800 when it
> first hit the makret, ugh....everyhting looks like its in a haze or
> sandstorm, like monet's...

In the late 80's/early 90's there were some high speed color slide
films that when pushed to the extreme (like 4 or 5 stops) could render
some very beautiful (but definitely not realistic) effects.

I would highly suggest that you go out and give it a try, figure out
what you like, and then work on getting that.

I really like T-MAX 400 in 120 rollfilm, developed in Xtol, if you want
a starting point. Also did a lot of work with Ilford HP5+ and Acufine.
It's fast enough that camera shake from hand-holding a camera outdoors
is not a major problem. Grain is clearly evident (but to my eyes not at
all objectionable... maybe you will feel different) in a 11x14 print.

Tim.
John - 22 Mar 2006 07:17 GMT
>I think, the consunsus is, isnt a lack of grain I am looking for but
>rather the "sharp acutance" of wich you speak.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>first hit the makret, ugh....everyhting looks like its in a haze or
>sandstorm, like monet's...

That can be good. I once took some 1600 and ran it through my Minoilta
X700 on which I had mounted a Soligor 70~210 (really bad lens) and 2 5
element 2X tele-exteneders. Ran the aperture wide open but of course
the extenders caused the light hitting the film to drop to the
equivalent of f/16. Made for some nice soft images. Lots of flare and
abberations.

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    www.legacy-photo,com
    www.xs750.net
nathantw - 29 Mar 2006 00:57 GMT
I hate to say this, but if you really hate grainy images or grainy
color photos then you really, really should consider a digital camera.
David Nebenzahl - 29 Mar 2006 02:21 GMT
nathantw spake thus:

> I hate to say this, but if you really hate grainy images or grainy
> color photos then you really, really should consider a digital camera.

Or a larger format film camera. They still make them, you know.

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cwertman@yahoo.com - 29 Mar 2006 05:58 GMT
Well, I though the 120 was sufficent to overcome this , I've just
purchased a Bronica and a Mamiya, Im going to see which I like better,
and get rid of whatever one I dont.

But for sh.ts and grins tommorow Im going to order and 8x10 camera kit,
I wanted to build this with the kids anyhow, I have some property in
southern Ohio, where many of my grandads photos were taken of the Ohio
river, its the highest point of land for about 60 mile and a
significant peak at that right on the river, so it should make for some
great landscapes (if you dont mind the haze and powerplants:) Besides
at $450 for the kit, it will make one heck of a decoration if I manage
to screw it up....

As well I ordered a whole slew of film, hey at 3 a roll and under how
can you go wrong, 5 different brands 3 different speeds.... I'm just
going to shoot the crud outta all of it and see if I can find what I'm
looking for.

I did get a roll out of the Alpa 6B (35mm) with the TMax 100, I am very
happy with, both contrast and grain, so If Im happy at 35 mm and a 5x7
at 120 and 8x10 I should be ok,

I will keep you posted, I am going to try the Dektol tommorow.......

Chris
John - 29 Mar 2006 08:03 GMT
>Well, I though the 120 was sufficent to overcome this , I've just
>purchased a Bronica and a Mamiya, Im going to see which I like better,
>and get rid of whatever one I dont.

Depends which Bronica and Which Mamiya. RB beats anything Bronica made
hands down. But the ETRSi was certainly the best 645 camera made IMO.

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    www.legacy-photo,com
    www.xs750.net
Ken Hart - 29 Mar 2006 18:14 GMT
> Well, I though the 120 was sufficent to overcome this , I've just
> purchased a Bronica and a Mamiya, Im going to see which I like better,
> and get rid of whatever one I dont.
snip>
> I did get a roll out of the Alpa 6B (35mm) with the TMax 100, I am very
> happy with, both contrast and grain, so If Im happy at 35 mm and a 5x7
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Chris

You are using that Dektol on paper and not on film, right?
While film can be processed in Dektol (I'm told it's an old newspaper trick;
dev time is about 2-3 min.), it's not the best developer for minimum grain.

If you're trying to get minimum grain in your prints, have tried diffusion
in printing-- you might like it? Get a piece of nylon (pantyhose), stretch
it in a frame (embroidery hoop from the craft shop), and hold it under the
enlarger lens, moving it around. Try diffusing for part of the exposure, and
straight printing for the balance.

Signature

Ken Hart
kwhart@aec.nu

Lloyd Erlick - 30 Mar 2006 16:52 GMT
>I will keep you posted, I am going to try the Dektol tommorow.......
>
>Chris

March 30, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

I think your saga is fascinating. Nice of you
to let us observe the pleasure of getting
into photography!

On the subject of Dektol, although I am
certain you will get good results, just
remember there are plenty of alternatives to
Dektol and lots of things to do to prints to
make them what you want. (The first thing I
did was stop using Dektol ...). (Lots of
peole will disagree with me ...).

First thing to do with a print developed in
Dektol: selenium tone it. Your taste might
run to brown toner instead, or in
combination. Toning almost always makes a
print look better.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

nathantw - 29 Mar 2006 06:21 GMT
Actually, not true. When I was in college I used a 4x5 camera thinking the
sky in my beach picture was going to be grain free. When I printed my b/w
negative the sky had noticeable grain (100 ASA film). I used Tech Pan 120
film when I first bought my Hasselblad thinking it was the sharpest film out
there and the finest grain. Guess what? Same thing. Grain. There's no
getting away from it because that's the nature of the format. The only way
to get grainless pictures is to shoot digital.

By the way, I love grain in my pictures which is why for 35mm I shoot with
200 speed film for color and T-Max 3200 for b/w. For medium format I shoot
Fuji 800 slide film. I'm not going digital, even for snapshots, for a long,
long time.

> nathantw spake thus:
>
>> I hate to say this, but if you really hate grainy images or grainy
>> color photos then you really, really should consider a digital camera.
>
> Or a larger format film camera. They still make them, you know.
Mike King - 30 Mar 2006 15:27 GMT
With digital you trade grain for noise (the electronic equivalent).  Grain
or noise it's part of the process, just like brush strokes in oil paintings
or grain in wood furniture.  Toolmarks in steel, spruemarks in plastic, etc.
There are post processes than can minimize the effect for all media but it's
the whole silk purse from sow's ear thing.

Signature

darkroommike

> Actually, not true. When I was in college I used a 4x5 camera thinking the
> sky in my beach picture was going to be grain free. When I printed my b/w
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> >
> > Or a larger format film camera. They still make them, you know.
John - 29 Mar 2006 08:01 GMT
>I hate to say this, but if you really hate grainy images or grainy
>color photos then you really, really should consider a digital camera.

LOL ! Some people are such cards !!

I think I'll stick with my Linhof 5X7.
==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    www.legacy-photo,com
    www.xs750.net
Lloyd Erlick - 30 Mar 2006 17:11 GMT
>>I hate to say this, but if you really hate grainy images or grainy
>>color photos then you really, really should consider a digital camera.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>==
>     John S. Douglas

March 30, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

I'm sure there are people who feel towards
the computer the way I feel about cameras and
enlargers. So fine, why shouldn't they get
digital cameras.

But I hate the computer. My relationship with
it is definitely love-hate, because I use it
so much. Even if I'm looking at my own work
(which means I have eliminated a dull chore,
the contact sheet ...) onscreen, or a bit of
anime for distraction, I always feel like I'm
wasting time. My life is slipping by and I'm
frittering here in front of this thing ...

I don't feel like that in the darkroom, in
fact I feel a sense of accomplishment if I
get a couple of decent prints. Prints that
come out of a machine have never really
interested me; I know silver darkroom prints
are close to machine made. But my hand is in
there on each one, and that seems to be all
my warped personality requires.

My reasons for not bothering with digital
methods as the means of producing my final
result (a black and white print) are entirely
to do with my psychology, personality,
proclivities and idiosyncrasies. I'm not
going to be changing any of these to
accommodate a device or technology.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Nicholas O. Lindan - 30 Mar 2006 19:13 GMT
> But I hate the computer. ... I always feel like I'm
> wasting time. My life is slipping by and I'm
> frittering here in front of this thing ...

On another newsgroup there is a poster who refers to
himself as "Talker to Minerals".

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics, Photonics, Informatics.
Remove blanks to reply:   n o lindan at ix . netcom . com
f-Stop enlarging timers: http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/ 

Lloyd Erlick - 01 Apr 2006 15:26 GMT
>> But I hate the computer. ... I always feel like I'm
>> wasting time. My life is slipping by and I'm
>> frittering here in front of this thing ...
>
>On another newsgroup there is a poster who refers to
>himself as "Talker to Minerals".

April 1, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

Is he a ... silicon whisperer??

But now that I say that, it seems anyone on
the darkroom ng could be satirized as a
silver whisperer...

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

cwertman@yahoo.com - 21 Mar 2006 21:10 GMT
I am beginning to agree, I was looking for a sharpness I associated
with no grain, it does appear however it may be more of a contrast
issue.

So tho that end any suggestions on the fellows post above regarding
"Acutance" ?

I should also say Ive learned more in this forum in the last 24 hrs
than I ever expected to for a washbin hack this is fun...
Richard Knoppow - 21 Mar 2006 23:57 GMT
>I am beginning to agree, I was looking for a sharpness I
>associated
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> last 24 hrs
> than I ever expected to for a washbin hack this is fun...

  The developer that probably is most often satisfactory
for exagerated acutance effects is Agfa Rodinal but its
availability is questionable now. A German company called
Calbe makes a developer which is probably virtually
identical with it. Otherwise, the two extra-fine-grain
developers, Microdol-X and Ilford Perceptol, are good
acutance developers when diluted one part stock to 3 parts
water. Both Kodak and Ilford give developing times for most
films at this dilution. The grain and speed are about the
same as with D-76 but the edge effects are quite noticable.
Rodinal, at high dilutions, was popular because it gave even
stronger acutance effects along with a very sharp grain
pattern. This is really a special effect and should be tried
before you use it for anything important.
  As far as overall contrast: This is partly a matter of
development time, the longer the development the greater the
contrast. Some films are inherently more contrasty than
others. For instance, the very slow, very fine grain,
conventional emulsion films have a tendency to become
excessively contrasty. Agfa's film is no longer made but
EFKE evidently has a similar film. Typically, these have an
ISO speed of around 25.
  You will have to experiment to find a combination that
suits you but this should give you a place to start.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Rod Smith - 22 Mar 2006 01:30 GMT
>    The developer that probably is most often satisfactory
> for exagerated acutance effects is Agfa Rodinal but its
> availability is questionable now. A German company called
> Calbe makes a developer which is probably virtually
> identical with it.

Specifically, it's Calbe R09. Fomadon R09 is reportedly the same stuff.
(I'm not sure if it's made in the same factory, but at the very least it's
the same formula.)

I've been seeing reports that A&O (the company that bought up Agfa's
chemistry devision) Rodinal should be appearing on store shelves in the US
within a few days. IIRC, Freestyle is saying they'll have it on 3/27/06.

Signature

Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

John - 22 Mar 2006 07:20 GMT
>   The developer that probably is most often satisfactory
>for exagerated acutance effects is Agfa Rodinal

How about D-19 ? Dektol works about the same as Rodinal. Try it at
1:100.

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    www.legacy-photo,com
    www.xs750.net
cwertman@yahoo.com - 27 Mar 2006 02:31 GMT
Thanks, Nice bike by the way, I  am building an XR750 (Harley) Just got
the frame back from the platers, wow I forgot how much work it was.

I am using an Omega 2 enlarger, but I have done a fair bit of small
contact prints so no lense problems there.

In 35 mm I am shooting with and Alpa, on a Leits short tripod. The
medium is a Rollei, both in tip top shape, np problems there, lighting
np, etc.

I am going to try some of the films metioned above, but I am VERY
curious about the developing process, when you said about using  Dektol
, you were talking about the film correct ? and a 1:100 dilution, once
again thats from the stock solution ?

I use the Kodak products as they are the only thing available near me
and theyre cheap....

I shot a roll with the Alpa last night paying particular attention to
EVERYTHING, the light, shadows, etc with TMax100 (TMX100)
"Professional" and followed the times on the d76 (6 1/2) minutes etc
etc, the negative are visibly better than the last set with the Rollei,
although I am wondering about the light leak someone metioned, I either
BORKED it TOTALLY last night but cant remeber when but there was an
entire 120 roll exposed, and I was REALLY carefull at every stage.

So tonight I am going to print well see how it goes, but I am really
curious about if you are talking about using the Dektol on the film,
and the 1:100 is from the 1 Gal stock solution (that seems REALLY weak)

Thanks

Chris
John - 27 Mar 2006 07:16 GMT
>Thanks, Nice bike by the way, I  am building an XR750 (Harley) Just got
>the frame back from the platers, wow I forgot how much work it was.

I believe you mean the one on the front page at xs750.net. That's
Henriks. Quite the custom job. Mines at

 http://www.xs750.net/mybike.html

For something a little quicker :

http://www.xs750.net/mefizzer.html

>I am using an Omega 2 enlarger, but I have done a fair bit of small
>contact prints so no lense problems there.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>BORKED it TOTALLY last night but cant remeber when but there was an
>entire 120 roll exposed, and I was REALLY carefull at every stage.

There are different degrees of exposure. Was the film completely black
?

>So tonight I am going to print well see how it goes, but I am really
>curious about if you are talking about using the Dektol on the film,
>and the 1:100 is from the 1 Gal stock solution (that seems REALLY weak)

Yep. Extremely weak and highly alkaline. Dektol is loaded with
carbonate. Extremely grainy. You can play with it just as many do with
Rodinal.

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    www.legacy-photo,com
    www.xs750.net
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 04 Apr 2006 11:49 GMT
> I believe you mean the one on the front page at xs750.net.
> That's Henriks. Quite the custom job. Mines at
>
>   http://www.xs750.net/mybike.html

  Superlative. I'll have to sit back a few rows. I've made it
as far as a 500 Virago. Do have have it in mind to go as far as
a newer 535.  And all along I've thought 900 Harley's minimum.
Then again for much of the time my maximum $ was less
than their minimum $$$. Like to Bike. Dan
shoppa@trailing-edge.com - 22 Mar 2006 14:06 GMT
> I am beginning to agree, I was looking for a sharpness I associated
> with no grain, it does appear however it may be more of a contrast
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I should also say Ive learned more in this forum in the last 24 hrs
> than I ever expected to for a washbin hack this is fun...

Looking at your other posts, you seem to be using a Rollei rollfilm
TLR, 120 film, and an old enlarger and enlarging lenses.

You seem to be lacking a certain sharpness/"snap" in your resulting
prints (you don't actually say so, I'm just assuming so based on your
comments and wording going from grain to acutance.)

In my experience, the weak point in your chain stopping you from
getting prints with "snap" and acutance is going to be your enlarger
lenses and light leaks. Make sure your safelight is appropriate for the
paper you're using too.

Flare in cheap-o 40-year-old enlarger lenses (that probably were
low-end to begin with) will cause the light in the negative (dark area
in the print) to spread out and hit areas on the print that are
supposed to be light in the print. The overall result is drab and not
impressive. Light leaks and/or the wrong safelight will do you in too,
as will old or poorly stored paper.

With skill in choosing paper contrast and dodging and burning, experts
can make pretty good prints with cruddy lenses. It's still not ideal in
detail sharpness but it can be a worlds better than a straight print
using the same equipment.

The lens on the Rollei camera may or may not be coated... if not coated
a lens hood can really help with flare there, especially outdoors in
the sun.

Tim.
Neal Currie - 28 Mar 2006 04:11 GMT
Plus-X doesn't have super-high resolution or super-fine grain, but I
find its grain structure very pleasing, and it has high accutance in
D76 1:1. If you're shooting 35mm it will produce quite nice 11x14s.

Rate it at 100 or 80 instead of 125 and don't change development. It
needs more exposure than 125 to capture shadow detail well, and it does
quite nicely in highlights.
John - 28 Mar 2006 15:54 GMT
>Plus-X doesn't have super-high resolution or super-fine grain, but I
>find its grain structure very pleasing, and it has high accutance in
>D76 1:1. If you're shooting 35mm it will produce quite nice 11x14s.

To qualify that above statement I would say that of course everyone
has their opinion as to what "quite nice" is. Sebastio Salgado has
many of his images enlarged to incredible sizes and for many people
the drama of the image completely overwhelms any technical
considerations. I tend to agree though I think they would look better
at 16X20. As far aas enlarging any 35mm 3.5x9.5 is about as far as
I'll go without seeing some image compromising.

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    www.legacy-photo,com (currently down (again))
    www.xs750.net
Neal Currie - 28 Mar 2006 16:54 GMT
True. I should have mentioned that I shoot 35mm only so my standards
are of course much lower than those who shoot MF & LF - but I was tired
and brain-dead so neglected to do so.
John - 29 Mar 2006 08:07 GMT
>True. I should have mentioned that I shoot 35mm only so my standards
>are of course much lower than those who shoot MF & LF - but I was tired
>and brain-dead so neglected to do so.

I wouldn't use the term "lower" but it takes one heck of an image and
quality printing to get a good 11X14 print out of a 35mm. Salgado is
incredible and his darkroom technician is certainly a master. I'd love
to see an article on them both in one of the better rags but I've
given up that hope.

==
    John S. Douglas
    Photographer & Webmaster
    www.legacy-photo,com
    www.xs750.net
Rod Smith - 22 Mar 2006 01:35 GMT
> If you're coming into this for the first time and are so completely
> obsessed with not seeing grain, you might try Ilford XP2 B&W film. It
> is available in 120 rollfilm.

Note that Ilford XP2 Super is a C-41 B&W film. You wouldn't ordinarily
develop it in D-76, XTOL, Rodinal, FX-39, or any of the other conventional
B&W chemicals that have been mentioned in this thread. (It CAN be
developed in these chemicals, but results aren't likely to be very
pleasing.) Since the OP seems interested in playing with home development,
I'd advise either staying away from XP2 Super or learning to develop it in
C-41 chemistry. This chemistry is a bit more finicky than most
conventional B&W processes, but it is do-able if you want to do it. If the
OP's interested, he could buy a roll or two to have them commercially
processed, and if he likes the results and wants to do it himself, buy a
C-41 kit and give it a whirl.

Signature

Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

Cheesehead - 29 Mar 2006 21:14 GMT
You can pick up some Agfa APX-100.  Pretty close to what 25 was.
Then there is, as stated by others, TMax 100 & Fuji Acros.
Part will depend on your development practices and experience.  (I use
HC-100(b) but sometimes lately dilution (c). )
As well as your lens and format.
Personally, I take them in this order:
1. APX-100
2. Fuji Acros
3. TMax 100

Collin
KC8TKA
Andrew Price - 30 Mar 2006 19:58 GMT
>You can pick up some Agfa APX-100.

You'd better hurry; it's no longer made, and stocks are dwindling
fast.
cgrady - 04 Apr 2006 13:57 GMT
I did eleven years running a custom B&W darkroom.  Low grain was always
a goal for me with success on many levels.  I used several rolls of
Kodak Panatomic.  I was very pleased with its grainless nature, but it
was a low contrast film.  I started using Ilford Pan F and was amazed
by its grainless nature and higher contrast.  With an ISO of 50 it is a
good working film.  It is available in 120 and I think you will be
pleased with it too.
Clint

P.S.  I also did a few rolls of Kodak Technical Pan, but it has been
discontinued and stores are running out.

> I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
> and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Chris
Jean-David Beyer - 04 Apr 2006 14:01 GMT
> I did eleven years running a custom B&W darkroom.  Low grain was always
> a goal for me with success on many levels.  I used several rolls of
> Kodak Panatomic.  I was very pleased with its grainless nature, but it
> was a low contrast film.

I had no problem with contrast with Panatomic-X film. Most of the people I
knew who tried it complained it was too contrasty. Well, just develop
longer. The main problem with that stuff (other than slow speed) was that it
did shoulder off around Zone VIII to IX so you had to be careful with the
highlights and not overexpose.

> I started using Ilford Pan F and was amazed
> by its grainless nature and higher contrast.  With an ISO of 50 it is a
> good working film.  It is available in 120 and I think you will be
> pleased with it too.
> Clint
>
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