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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2006Software
I'm curious to know if list members think that it's desirable to manage their profession/avocation with software and, if so, what features they need. -Lew > I'm curious to know if list members think that it's desirable to manage > their profession/avocation with software and, if so, what features they > need. I try not to let software manage me. I prefer it the other way around. rafe b www.terrapinphoto.com ... so do you use a software package or not? >> I'm curious to know if list members think that it's desirable to manage >> their profession/avocation with software and, if so, what features they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > rafe b > www.terrapinphoto.com Lew spake thus: > ... so do you use a software package or not? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> I try not to let software manage me. I prefer it the other way around. What kind of software are you referring to: accounting software? tax software? time management? what?  SignatureA: Top posting. Q: What's the most annoying thing about Usenet? I'm curious to know if list members think that it's desirable to manage their photographic profession/avocation with software and, if so, what features they need. -Lew > Lew spake thus: > What kind of software are you referring to: accounting software? tax > software? time management? what? > ... so do you use a software package or not? Probably not the sort of "packages" you're thinking of. Ie., there's no single package that deals with all aspects of my "profession" or any single "avocation." What sorts of packages did you have in mind? Can you give examples? rafe b www.terrapinphoto.com I don't have any package in mind. I can't give any examples because that's what I'm asking for. If you do use any "package," in any way you care to construe that term, what is it? Otherwise, what aspects, if any, of your interest in photography do you manage with your computer and what software do you use? -Lew >> ... so do you use a software package or not? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > rafe b > www.terrapinphoto.com > I don't have any package in mind. I can't give any examples because that's > what I'm asking for. If you do use any "package," in any way you care to > construe that term, what is it? Otherwise, what aspects, if any, of your > interest in photography do you manage with your computer and what software > do you use? I use various image editors and viewers, RAW conversion programs, scanner drivers, profile-generation tools, image- cleaning tools (eg. NeatImage.) I use FTP to deal with my website, and all the usual internet clients. I've thought a bit about "digital asset management" but am still getting by with a low-tech approach to all that. At this point, the I'm sure the natives are wondering what any of this has to do with darkrooms. rafe b www.terrapinphoto.com I see that you are reluctant to name names, perhaps wisely so. I have many years of accumulated trips, projects, negatives, positives, prints, developer time/temp combos, notes about same and storage solutions that I'd like to relate to each other in an efficient way. It's a case of "analog asset management" that stems from using a darkroom. -Lew > I use various image editors and viewers, RAW conversion > programs, scanner drivers, profile-generation tools, image- [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > rafe b > www.terrapinphoto.com > I see that you are reluctant to name names, perhaps wisely so. I have many > years of accumulated trips, projects, negatives, positives, prints, > developer time/temp combos, notes about same and storage solutions that I'd > like to relate to each other in an efficient way. It's a case of "analog > asset management" that stems from using a darkroom. > -Lew Since you are talking mainly of non digital items I would imagine a good database, such as Access, would do the job. That is what I am starting to use to track my negatives, prints, etc. I still use PFS File, but am slowly adding things to an Access file because it allows me to put an image in the datbase and PFS does not. If you don't need a relational database or a picture there are some old programs that really do the job well. Of course you have to have a system already in place. Be prepared to do a LOT of cataloging if you don't have a system already. If you do then write your own database with a DB program and be ready to do a lot of wotk putting it all into your database. It helps to have help in data entry - a friend, wife, girlfriend, hired temp. Frank Well, I'm wondering if there are any commercial products out there that do this. You've created the Access/PFS solution yourself. -Lew > Since you are talking mainly of non digital items I would imagine a good > database, such as Access, would do the job. That is what I am starting to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Frank software photographer business management and in 0.30 seconds Google spake thusly: http://www.hindsightltd.com/ I don't know if this stuff is any good at all. Practice management software, outside of the dental/medical and legal fields, is pretty grim. You may want to expand your search to software for managing a print shop. One software package that does everything doesn't exist. Look for several packages that you put together to make up a suite. If you are not into IT then a simple solution may be: o Finances - Quick Books/Turbo Tax o Time management - Palm o Office - Corel or Microsoft o Work - PhotoShop o Data - Whatever database program comes with the office software A spreadsheet makes a nice start for keeping track of data. When you figure out what you want to track then you can move it to a database program. This selection of software to run a practice is generic - nothing whiz-bang - reason being it has been shown to work well. Start by looking at what you keep track of now and limit your software to managing just that. Don't look to the future until the present is well looked after. The trap is a tendency to automate -everything- and track -everything- and the job never finishes and the software never works. Successful programs throw requirements out the window as they progress, disasters have new requirements thrown in continuously. If you are shooting stock then I am sure there are some good packages for keeping track of images. -- Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. > o Office - Corel or Microsoft Its worth checking out open office. I use Open Office and love it for correspondence, spreadsheets, etc. My wife is back in school and cursed me daily for refusing to buy Microsoft Office since that was what the school used and what she wanted to use and needed for MLA stylesheets and whatever, since she had taken courses in Office and wasn't flexible enough to adapt to Open Office I finally relented and got her a copy of Word. Same thing, school uses XP so I have to buy XP, XP won't run on her perfectly good PIII (that I built) so I have to buy her a P4 (I hate bloated cow software). Most of what I really need could be done in DOS using pfs:Write, Multiplan and pfs:File. My invoice program is really just a template I designed in pfs:Write in 1985, I print a copy of each invoice (that's my "backup" for the computer), manually transfer totals to a spreadsheet and use Turbo Tax to do my taxes each year. Negative file is in another spreadsheet and that's it. Signaturedarkroommike > > > o Office - Corel or Microsoft > > Its worth checking out open office. > Well, I'm wondering if there are any commercial products out there that do > [something, so you don't have to mess with db design]. As Frank stated, the issue isn't the database software: it is the data. If you want to catalog a life-time accumulation of photographs prepare to hire a clerk-typist to do the data entry. First, though, write down what it is that you can't do now but that you would be able to do if all the data was on a computer. Then estimate how much time you spend doing these tasks manually. You may come to the conclusion that it is just not worth the effort to automate. If the computer won't save you time in doing a task then don't let the computer do it -- else you end up slave to the machine. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm Actually, among my other hats, I'm a database application designer and programmer, so I'm aware of the process and overhead. > Actually, among my other hats, I'm a database application designer and > programmer, so I'm aware of the process and overhead. So _you_ should be telling _us_ how to do it... SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm Well, I'm not asking _how_ to do it, rather what people find useful to do and how compelling a case they make for doing it. If there were any existing programs that assisted with darkroom work my guess is that members of this list would be using them and have strong opinions about which ones were best along with which features worked well for them & which didn't. Of course I think about writing my own software, but I won't if a strong product is already out there. Here's my list of stuff so far: 1. Shooting: date/time location film type ie subjects notes 2. Processing: cross reference #1 process date developer time/temp notes 3. Proofing cross ref #1 (will infer #2) proof date frame selection notes 4. Printing Cross ref all of the above plus frame id print date Paper & grade Developer Title Notes The most problamatic so far is #4. How to keep the computer dark and chemical free in the darkroom. Entering notes for individual prints after a session for 20 - 40 prints has got to be an enormous pia. >> Actually, among my other hats, I'm a database application designer and >> programmer, so I'm aware of the process and overhead. > > So _you_ should be telling _us_ how to do it... > The most problamatic so far is #4. How to keep the computer dark and > chemical free in the darkroom. Entering notes for individual prints after > a session for 20 - 40 prints has got to be an enormous pia. Why not forget about a keyboard (in the darkroom) and just enter recorded audio. You could transcribe that later. rafe b www.terrapinphoto.com "Lew" <lew@speakeasy.net> wrote > Well, I'm not asking _how_ to do it, rather what Dawn breaks... > Here's my list [of image related stuff to > keep track of in the computer] so far: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > film type > ie i.e. what? > subjects > notes I would index by roll: Film type and development only exist once for the whole roll. The roll points to a series of entries for frames by subject and the subject is itself a key to a subject database. I would guess normally only two or three frames per roll would have detailed data. Some would have "ditto" : most of mine in my paper notebook are: "" + 1/2 So I would make that sort of thing easy. If you are a zoney there should be a way of attaching a zone system worksheet to an exposure. Again a sparse tree. I imagine this would all be logged with a Palm or a Pocket-PC, or would a notebook PC be available at the shoot? For the non database [db] folks that means there is only one copy of the word 'dog' in the data base and all pictures of a dog have a pointer to this one copy. This gets around problems of some labeled Dog, some dog some Dogg: the computer can have trouble picking up all the misspellings and variations in nomenclature and realizing they are all the same thing. It is like having categories for saving mail or keeping track of favorite sites: the name of the 'box' is the subject index - all websites with lamp jokes would go under jokes/lamp. With a database it is possible to have the same data organized in different ways: all pictures taken of dogs, all pictures of anything taken in March 1984, all pictures taken with Tri-X. One can spend forever on database > 2. Processing: > cross reference #1 > process date > developer > time/temp > notes Processing data would be part of roll data: indexes to chemicals with space for notes on variations - 1:1, stand, .... > 3. Proofing > cross ref #1 (will infer #2) > proof date > frame selection > notes Again this is part of roll data. It is 1:1 correspondence with rolls. > 4. Printing > Cross ref all of the above plus frame id [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Title > Notes Roll/subject/frame Again a sparse tree, 1:1 correspondence to exposure so it should be part of the exposure data. I would start by looking at what you track now with paper and put that, and only that, on the computer. That way you quickly get a working kernel that you add to when you see additional needs and you know when the design is done. > The most problematic so far is #4. How to keep the computer dark and > chemical free in the darkroom. Rubylith over the screen. Set the color scheme to all red, easy if you run under DOS with DOS apps. Keyboards are cheap. Just keep a spare one or two on hand. Most are pretty spill proof and can be rinsed under the tap. Computer? I'd use an old high-quality DOS machine, something you would get for free. Compaqs or H/P Vectras with 286's are rugged. They are far more reliable [with modern disks] than any Wintel/Mac box. And if it gets chems in it, pull the disks, put the machine out by the curb, and grab a spare DOS box from the basement. > Entering notes for individual prints after a > session for 20 - 40 prints has got to be an enormous pia. I only do 1 or 2 prints [each may have clone copies] per session. If I am cranking out production with a negatrans and six uncut rolls then there are no contact sheets. I read the negatives projected on the easel to pick ones to print & I don't know that I would keep data. I only do production in special situations; if it is regular production I have a lab do it - they have the equipment for that sort of work and I don't. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm We're on the same page now. I'd handle things under the hood somewhat differently though. -Lew "The most problamatic so far is #4. How to keep the computer dark and chemical free in the darkroom." I'm not entirely sure this is required, I see that it might be attractive. Note that the the military has made remote keyboards that have a degree of protection against contamination. It is possible that some might appear in surplus markets. Putting the rest of the computer in a box will help avoid any spills falling on the computer. Still, there can be mild corrosives in a darkroom atmosphere so this doesn't completely address contamination. Avoiding light in the darkroom might be pretty hard, depending on the material in use. If you are only printing with Azo, a red filter should be enough. If you are developing sheets of fast panchromatic film in a tray there really isn't a practical solution. But then is it really required to work with the computer within the wet area of a darkroom? "Peter" <p2macgahan@compuserve.com> wrote in message > But then is it really required to work with the computer > within the wet area of a darkroom? Bingo: I think Peter has the answer in a nutshell. I have not heard of concerns about spilling chemicals all over the enlarger or paper cutter or noxious fumes etching away the timer electronics. The concern is in putting a computer somewhere where it hasn't been and the aura that a computer is something special and delicate. A computer is in the same delicacy category as a table radio. Same function, too: AC power and ether go in, babble comes out. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm >noxious >fumes etching away the timer electronics. ... this explains everything ... --le My main in the dark requirement would be to keep notes about how I'm printing certain negatives. > But then is it really required to work with the computer > within the wet area of a darkroom? >My main in the dark requirement would be to keep notes about how I'm >printing certain negatives. Like I say... a tiny handheld voice recorder. You can get them at Staples for $30-$50. Hands-free. Won't fog your prints or use up precious counter space. Why do folks consistently overlook the simple, cheap, and obvious solutions? rafe b www.terrapinphoto.com I thought you were kidding when you made your original suggestion. I'm not ignoring it; I just don't want to create another chore, ie transcription. >>My main in the dark requirement would be to keep notes about how I'm >>printing certain negatives. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > rafe b > www.terrapinphoto.com >I thought you were kidding when you made your original suggestion. I'm not >ignoring it; I just don't want to create another chore, ie transcription. Sooner or later there will be some keyboarding. Talking into a mic as you work takes zero effort. So there's no "extra chore," unless talking into a mic is a chore. And it solves most of those other gnarly problems folks have been talking about. But hey, it's only an idea and you can do with it as you wish. If I had a wet darkroom, I'm not sure I'd want a computer in it <grin.> rafe b www.terrapinphoto.com ie right next to the enlarger Well, the bit I snipped looked idealy suited to being stored in a database. > The most problamatic so far is #4. How to keep the computer dark and > chemical free in the darkroom. Entering notes for individual prints after > a session for 20 - 40 prints has got to be an enormous pia. I've got a roll up rubber keyboard, intended for laptops. I bought it as a gimmick. According to the instructions you can use it underwater. That might be an option, else one of those keyboard protectors you sometimes see on shop tills. I am sure you can get them for computer keyboards. Can't really help for the monitor. Red filter over the screen? Signaturehttp://www.petezilla.co.uk > Actually, among my other hats, I'm a database > application designer and programmer, so I'm aware > of the process and overhead. I've worn that hat working in Cobal, C, Basic, and Assembly. That was quite a few years ago but think I could wade quickly back in. I'll likely buy an Apple system within the next few months. What is your opinion of Mac's included programing facilities? Specificaly AppleScript and X Code. I understand that X Code is an Apple OS X included compiler. Java as well as other languages are available. Dan Hey Dan: I'm strictly a DOS/Windows kind of guy. I've worked in this industry for quite a while and I've *never* seen or heard about an Apple OS based enterprise. I have seen banks of Apples in small shops and graphics departments, however. End users who need the graphics stuff love them, but I've never met a happy Apple OS programmer. Of course, maybe things are better now. -Lew Lew spake thus: > I'm strictly a DOS/Windows kind of guy. I've worked in this industry for > quite a while and I've *never* seen or heard about an Apple OS based > enterprise. I have seen banks of Apples in small shops and graphics > departments, however. End users who need the graphics stuff love them, but > I've never met a happy Apple OS programmer. Of course, maybe things are > better now. Well, since OS/X is Unix (sorta), there will probably be a good number of the Linux crowd writing stuff for the Mac. You're right, though; statistically speaking, *nobody* uses Macs to run their business. SignatureTo the arrogant putzes at NBC: Do we call the country Italia? Is its capital Roma? Were previous Olympics held in Moskva, Muenchen or Athine? Do we call it the "Shroud of Torino"? No! So learn to speak English already and call it Turin. - from someone's blog > Well, since OS/X is Unix (sorta), there will probably be a > good number of the Linux crowd writing stuff for the Mac. There are a few Linux distributions which can be installed on Apple computers. Dual booting is possible. Java 2 Standard Edition, J2SE, is included with any Mac. That and the included X Code IDE can make a programmer of any one at no additional cost. Gota know JAVA though. AppleScripts is a macro facility; a feature of OS-X. It makes possible automated computer function. Very helpfull with reduntant operations. AppleWorks is off the shelf word processing, spread sheet, data base, etc, software. Costs extra. Dan > Hey Dan: > I'm strictly a DOS/Windows kind of guy. I've worked in > this industry for quite a while and I've *never* seen or heard > about an Apple OS based enterprise. Lew X Code is Apple's IDE. It comes in the box. Compile, Undo, etc, etc. Like I said, it's been a while. Looks like a real winner for anyone who would like to wade right in. Dan dan.c.quinn@att.net spake thus: >> I'm strictly a DOS/Windows kind of guy. I've worked in this >> industry for quite a while and I've *never* seen or heard about an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > etc, etc. Like I said, it's been a while. Looks like a real winner > for anyone who would like to wade right in. Dan Right, Dan. "Hey, I think I'll sit down tonight and write my database application using X-Code. Let's see, I've got a pound of coffee, a bag of bagels, another bag of doughnuts; that oughta do it." People *buy* that kind of software. They don't sit in their basement cranking out code. SignatureTo the arrogant putzes at NBC: Do we call the country Italia? Is its capital Roma? Were previous Olympics held in Moskva, Muenchen or Athine? Do we call it the "Shroud of Torino"? No! So learn to speak English already and call it Turin. - from someone's blog >else you >end up slave to the machine. March 3, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, For years I kept notes next to my enlarger and then put them in a three-ring binder. All serialized according to roll- and frame-number. Very convenient. Then I started cataloging my pictures by computer. Suddenly I was going to the darkroom knowing in advance which frame I was going to work on. Then I started printing a thumbnail of the prospective image on a darkroom log form I 'designed'. It's top right on the page, just below the serial number. It turned out to be a major convenience to me! Think of it, a photographer whose memory is attuned to pictures. Makes hunting through my file much easier. Too bad only recent pages have thumbnails ... Now the computer shakes me out of bed in the morning and makes me set out chemistry, put a negative in the enlarger, do all the scrubbing and schlepping while it churns out pretty prints. What's really troubling is it's signing its own name on them ... regards, --le Signature________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________ >> I see that you are reluctant to name names, perhaps wisely so. I have many >> years of accumulated trips, projects, negatives, positives, prints, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Frank March 3, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, Frank is describing the method that more or less worked for me. In the early nineties I was using a Mac computer, and my database program was FileMaker. I bought the PC version when I switched, and it imported everything conveniently. But the real work, as Frank pointed out, was the organizing of all the material that then had to be keyboarded. I worked out a numbering system for all my negatives and prints. I've never computerized my darkroom print log. Recently I've begun to scan the pages containing my handwritten notes for each print I make. In the computer file containing the images of these pages, I include an image file on which I have drawn my cropping lines and scribbled notes to myself. I don't think I will turn these into a database. I just store them filed according to their respective serial numbers, so everything alphabetizes nicely. Frankly, one of my most useful "innovations" for myself is my file of pictures I plan to print. I call it 'Print These'. It is nothing more than a directory in which I copy any frame I find interesting. There are programs that conveniently play the contents as a slide show. I leave the slide show running frequently and can examine my work quite a lot while doing other stuff in the room. I have found the computer extremely useful in helping me 'live' with my pictures. This is a very important part of the editing process, and it was missing for me prior to the computer. For me, far more important than any software, is the ability to have my work on view where I can absorb it. regards, --le Signature________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________ >For me, far more important than any software, >is the ability to have my work on view where >I can absorb it. Always enjoy your screeds, Lloyd. You should write a book. Anyway, on the general subject... One of the major side benefits of having a own photo website is just as a simple online catalog of my best or favorite images. This also forces me to come up with a name/title for each image, which can be surprisingly difficult, but exceedingly useful. There are tons of inexpensive or free programs these days that will make contact sheets from your directories or arbitrary collections of image files. For each CD or DVD I burn, I make as many contact sheets as are needed. If they're snapshots, I might put 25 or 30 on a page. If they're images I care about, 12 is a good number. The contact sheets themselves are saved in a specific folder, and the printed contact sheets are saved in a 3-ring binder. So I can peruse them either on-line or off-line. Still and all... as the years wear by, I find myself spending altogether too much time organizing/cataloging, and less time actually taking new photos. That's sad. rafe b www.terrapinphoto.com > At this point, the I'm sure the natives are wondering what any > of this has to do with darkrooms. > > rafe b > www.terrapinphoto.com Common knowledge. Searching for a Clue one might be had amoungst a whole herd of Clues. Signature"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 greg_____photo(dot)com > > I'm curious to know if list members think that it's desirable to manage > > their profession/avocation with software and, if so, what features they > > need. > > I try not to let software manage me. I prefer it the other way around. And this has what to do with darkroom? It's all about finding stuff in the dark. Signaturedarkroommike > > > > I'm curious to know if list members think that it's desirable to manage [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > And this has what to do with darkroom? > It's all about finding stuff in the dark. The dull rumble you hear is the approach of a herd of clues. Or maybe just the darkroom fan. SignatureThe things we hate most in life often turn out to be a mirror image of ourselves. Better not to hate. Findmedirectly - "infoatgregblankphoto.com" Lew a écrit : > I'm curious to know if list members think that it's desirable to manage > their profession/avocation with software and, if so, what features they > need. > -Lew Well, I don't know if it is desirable or not but I use a computer (well, in fact two) for my darkroom work for several years now. My office is in my darkroom so my main computer is close to the enlargers. When printing B/W, I use a red filter (RubyLith film) on the screen. I have a second PC on the wet side with a flat LCD panel (and the same Rubylith film on) right over the sink. Their functions ? I developed a pair of applications to manage the dry and wet sides. So they are directly related to the darkroom work and help me work faster and better. The wet side is mainly a process timer with various extras: - films/papers process monitoring. Monitoring includes voice countdowns. - dilutions calculations - units conversion - time versus temperature conversion - chemical formulas maintenance The dry side is somewhat more sophisticated as it includes an electronic hardware driving the enlargers and a RGBW probe measuring the light: - stop timer for up to 4 enlargers (and/or respective fans). Voice countdown included. - metronome. Voice countdown included. - stop test strips. Voice countdown included. - exposure calculation when parameters vary (enlargment ratio, filters factor, diaphragm, ...) - multigrade filter exposure factors (mostly useful with a color head and single filtering) - color filters exposure factors calculation - contrast evaluation - exposure meter using various reference points related to reference prints. These reference points are stored in files so you can have as many as you want. - (soon) color analyzer - basic transmission densitometer using the enlarger as light source. More sophisticated transmission and reflection densitometers planned. - prints databank with their exposure parameters including a visual (print scan) dodging/burning map driving directly the timer. The project is here: http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/fotolab.htm It's been a long time I haven't updated this page so, if it does interest you, please wait a month or so as I have an upgrade to publish. But, as days are limited to a mere 24 hours and projects are so numerous, I need some time to finalize it ... I'm sure that many will find this completely overkill (please, no flames on this), but, in my case, my efficiency has increased a lot. Anyway, it's not the method or tools you use that counts, it's the way you understand and master them that is important. Best regards, Claudio Bonavolta http://www.bonavolta.ch |
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