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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2006

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Ilford Rapid fix Q

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MJL Photo - 01 Mar 2006 02:08 GMT
Is Ilford Rapid Fix at 1+4 with Fuji Acros for 6 mins not enough?
Fresh mix came out pink and film appears to be re-fixed...

Any help?
ML
Gareth - 01 Mar 2006 10:45 GMT
Using a water stop?

> Is Ilford Rapid Fix at 1+4 with Fuji Acros for 6 mins not enough?
> Fresh mix came out pink and film appears to be re-fixed...
>
> Any help?
> ML
Dave the Guy - 01 Mar 2006 15:13 GMT
I use 1+4 for 5 mins on acros 100 and agitate thoroughly for almost the
entire time.  Don't seem to have a problem after rinsing 4 times (first
rinse comes out relatively clear, second rinse comes out purple, third
rinse almost clear, fourth is crystal).

I'm using 1+19 ilford stop.

(I'm still new to developing so take this FWIW)
Rob Novak - 01 Mar 2006 18:51 GMT
>I use 1+4 for 5 mins on acros 100 and agitate thoroughly for almost the
>entire time.  Don't seem to have a problem after rinsing 4 times (first
>rinse comes out relatively clear, second rinse comes out purple, third
>rinse almost clear, fourth is crystal).

35mm or 120?  The 120's very heavily dyed, and will chew up fixing
capacity like crazy.  Are you reusing your fixer, or is this fresh?

I've not had any problems fixing 135/36 Acros in Ilford Rapidfix with
normal time/agitation.
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MJL Photo - 02 Mar 2006 01:19 GMT
Yes, it was 120. I reuse fixer but this batch was a fresh one.
The fixer changed back from pink to original colout a short while after.
Should I only use the fixer in this situation once - even though it's back
to the original colour? How many cycles should I reuse fixer in this
situation?

ML

>>I use 1+4 for 5 mins on acros 100 and agitate thoroughly for almost the
>>entire time.  Don't seem to have a problem after rinsing 4 times (first
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I've not had any problems fixing 135/36 Acros in Ilford Rapidfix with
> normal time/agitation.
Rob Novak - 02 Mar 2006 16:21 GMT
>Yes, it was 120. I reuse fixer but this batch was a fresh one.
>The fixer changed back from pink to original colout a short while after.
>Should I only use the fixer in this situation once - even though it's back
>to the original colour? How many cycles should I reuse fixer in this
>situation?

By way of setting the parameters here, I develop in Jobo rotary tanks
with 300ml of chemicals per load.  Two 120 rolls or one 220 roll of
Acros will exhaust 300ml of RapidFix 4+1 to the point where I wouldn't
want to fix any futher 120-format Acros in it.  The first time I tried
this, the reused fixer wouldn't completely remove the dye from a
subsequent set of 2 rolls of 135/36 PanF+.  Normally, I'll use 300ml
of RapidFix on up to 8 rolls of 135/36 PanF+ or HP5+, and 6 rolls of
Delta.

I'd recommend using it single-shot only.  Fixer's cheap.
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Dave the Guy - 02 Mar 2006 14:01 GMT
120.  Everything is nice and fresh right off the tree.  I only develop
a roll once or twice a week at most so I'm not looking to save much
money by reusing chemicals.

How is 135 acros compared to 120?
Rob Novak - 02 Mar 2006 16:29 GMT
>How is 135 acros compared to 120?

In what aspect?

They're both excellent performers.  Acros in 35mm is vastly superior
to Delta100 or TMX in resolution, grain, and tonality, at least how I
process them (Acros in Perceptol, Delta and TMX in DD-X).  I love the
stuff.  It and PanF+ in Ilfosol-S 1+14 are becoming my go-to
combinations for tight grain and tonal response.
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Dave the Guy - 02 Mar 2006 18:50 GMT
Have you tried acros in dd-x and compared it to working with perceptol?
I'm using dd-x for convenience (it seems to work pretty well at around
9:30-45 @ 68deg), but open to trying out some new combinations.

I started out using hp5+ for MF and and sacrificed the extra 2 stops
because acros was just so so good.  Anything slower and I wouldn't be
able to do handheld street shots though.
Richard Knoppow - 03 Mar 2006 18:38 GMT
>>How is 135 acros compared to 120?
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> go-to
> combinations for tight grain and tonal response.

  You are comparing apples with oranges. It is the
difference in the developer you are seeing, not differences
in the film. Perceptol or Kodak Microdol-X (virtually
identical) are extra-fine-grain developers. When used on a
film like those above the grain will be nearly as fine as
the late, lamented, Technical Pan in Technidol but with
considerably greater speed (EI 25 to 50) and much less
trouble with getting proper contrast.
  Both T-Max and DDX are excellent for obtaining the
highest speed from a film but are grainier than D-76.
Perceptol and Microdol-X lose a little speed (less than a
stop) but deliver much finer grain.
  In general, developers have little effect on film
resolution. Of course fine grain tends to allow higher
resolution, but the main factor is image spread caused by
"irradiation" or the diffusion of light in the emulsion.
Thin emulsion films, such as the Tabular grain ones, tend to
diffuse the image forming light less than older thick
emulsion or multiple coated films, so their resolution is
higher. Because the covering power of tabular grains is
greater than cubic grains the range of density of such film
is greater than the old thin emulsion films using
conventional grain types. So, one can have good tonal
rendition along with high resolution without short exposure
latitude or fussy development.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Rob Novak - 03 Mar 2006 19:49 GMT
>   You are comparing apples with oranges. It is the
>difference in the developer you are seeing, not differences
>in the film. Perceptol or Kodak Microdol-X (virtually
>identical) are extra-fine-grain developers. When used on a

I realize that.  However, I've also done rolls of Acros and Delta 100
in the same chemistry (Kodak TMax in that case - it wasn't my setup) -
the Acros grain was still tighter, with greater detail.

I prefer DD-X to D-76/ID-11 for HP5+ - I've got consistently better
results.  I don't normally shoot much Delta 100, but I push Delta 400
in DD-X to 800 and 1600 because I actually like the resultant grain,
and because DD-X is more convenient for me to deal with.

For Acros, I process in Perceptol because I feel that Acros' already
fine grain benefits from an extra-fine grain developer.  And, I like
the results.  PanF+ in DD-X tends to get hard to control the density,
and I've found that Ilfosol at 1+14 still gives good grain and
tonality while avoiding the tendency to block in the highlights.
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Richard Knoppow - 04 Mar 2006 00:36 GMT
>>   You are comparing apples with oranges. It is the
>>difference in the developer you are seeing, not
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> tonality while avoiding the tendency to block in the
> highlights.

 If you are pushing DDX, T-Max or Microphen will definitely
be better than D-76.
 I haven't tried Acros yet but its specs look very good and
it seems to have a good reputation.

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Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org - 01 Mar 2006 21:20 GMT
> I use 1+4 for 5 mins on acros 100 and agitate thoroughly for almost the
> entire time.  Don't seem to have a problem after rinsing 4 times (first
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> (I'm still new to developing so take this FWIW)

I haven't used that film, but the pink coloring in T-max film
comes out a lot easier if you use a wash aid, like Perma Wash.
It mostly comes out in the perma wash, before the final
water wash.
Dave the Guy - 02 Mar 2006 14:08 GMT
I don't mind water rinsing a couple of times and keeping the chemical
mixing to a minimum.  It's different film, but I've been following
Ilford's hp5+ recommendations by agitating a tank of water 5
times/dumping, agitating second tank 10 times/dumping, agitating last
tank 20 times/dumping, and if needed (my own rules) agitating one last
tank 10 times.
Andrew Price - 01 Mar 2006 19:03 GMT
>Is Ilford Rapid Fix at 1+4 with Fuji Acros for 6 mins not enough?
>Fresh mix came out pink and film appears to be re-fixed...

6 minutes should be more than enough:

<http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/pdf/rapid_fixer.pdf>

Ilford recommends from 2 to 5 minutes.
Richard Knoppow - 03 Mar 2006 18:38 GMT
> Is Ilford Rapid Fix at 1+4 with Fuji Acros for 6 mins not
> enough?
> Fresh mix came out pink and film appears to be re-fixed...
>
> Any help?
> ML
   It should be enough. Test the film for residual silver
using the sulfide test.
Kodak Residual Silver Test ST-1
Water                        100.0 ml
Sodium Sulfide, anhydrous      2.0 grams

Place a drop or two of this solution on a clear area of the
film and allow to remain for 2 minutes. Rinse off and blot.
There should be no visible stain. The film should be wet but
blotted when making the test.
 The solution lasts about 6 months in a filled, closed
bottle.
 You can make this test on a clip of unexposed film. Soak
the film in water for about 2 minutes and fix it as usual,
then wash and test. Wetted film fixes at a different rate
than dry film so the wetting step is important.

 To establish fixing time test as above using a clip of
undeveloped but wetted film. Fix in dim light and see how
long it takes to clear. Fix for twice this time. Make a test
with fresh fixer and test it this way periodically, it is a
pretty direct test of the amount of dissolved silver in the
fixer. The old rule for single fixing baths is to discard
them when the clearing time doubles. This is probably too
long for paper but not for film.
 Fuji Acros is a tabular grain film similar to T-Max and
Delta films. These films have an unusual amount of Silver
Iodide in them. Sodium fixer is retarded by the accumulation
of Iodide but Ammonium fixers are much less so. When using
Sodium fixer a two bath system is really necessary. While
the capacity of rapid fixer will be greater using a two bath
system its ability to complete the fixing process despite
the accumulation of silver ions is greater and two baths are
not always necessary. I would not be concerned with a
temporary stain in the used fixing bath.

  The stain on these films is caused by the sensitizing
dyes used in the emulsions. It tends to be persistent. While
it may bind to residual silver halide in the emulsion there
appear to be other factors beside this. The use of a sulfite
wash aid, or even a simple alkaline bath (2% Sodium
carbonate, Sodium Metaborate, or even Borax) will remove it.
If Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent is used follow the wash time
instructions.
  I use 100T-Max and 400T-Max routinely. If treated with
wash aid it comes out perfectly clear.
  BTW, tabular grain films fix out more easily than is
sometimes stated. I tested with the use of a two bath Sodium
Thiosulfate (conventional) fixing system and found that the
Sulfide test shows no indication of residual silver after a
total of around 12 minutes in the fixer (6 min in each
bath). However, I did us wash aid which can make some
residual silver complexes soluble which would otherwise
remain in the emulsion.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

 
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