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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2006

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extremely frustrated with stainless steel reels

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Joseph O'Brien - 27 Feb 2006 02:49 GMT
Hello, everyone.  I used to do a lot of darkroom work and had no
trouble loading 35mm onto stainless steel reels.  Now, after a 4 year
break, I can't load a full roll for the life of me, even after
practicing in the light.

I'm using a Kalt reel that I just recently purchased.  I have read
online that Jobo/Hewes reels are the gold standard.  Some have the
opinion that it's a waste of time to use anything else.  Others seem
perfectly happy with the less expensive brands.

So, I guess I'm just trying to decide whether to drop $35-$45 on a Jobo
reel.  My biggest concern is that I won't be able to load that either.
I am considering buying an inexpensive plastic reel, but only if it
fits into my stainless steel tank.  What do you guys think?  Will the
Jobo really make a difference, or do I just need more practice with the
reel I have?

Thanks for your advice.
Joseph
Mike - 27 Feb 2006 02:52 GMT
> I'm using a Kalt reel that I just recently purchased.  I have read
> online that Jobo/Hewes reels are the gold standard.  Some have the
> opinion that it's a waste of time to use anything else.  Others seem
> perfectly happy with the less expensive brands.

The difference between a generic and a Hewes reel was *huge* for me.

I've tried plastic too.  Personally I much prefer the stainless Hewes.

Then again I struggle with my 120 stainless reel (but it may not be a
hewes)
Herbert Kanner - 27 Feb 2006 04:57 GMT
> > I'm using a Kalt reel that I just recently purchased.  I have read
> > online that Jobo/Hewes reels are the gold standard.  Some have the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Then again I struggle with my 120 stainless reel (but it may not be a
> hewes)

I'll also cast a for for the Hewes reel. It's not magic; it's just a
greater precision in the distance between the two spirals than on any
other real that I have ever used.

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Peregrine Rigging - 27 Feb 2006 10:29 GMT
>> > I'm using a Kalt reel that I just recently purchased.  I have read
>> > online that Jobo/Hewes reels are the gold standard.  Some have the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>greater precision in the distance between the two spirals than on any
>other real that I have ever used.

Yes, that appears to be the issue. When I purchased my reels I rolled
them across the counter in the store. Any mis-alignment was obvious. I
found more than half of the Kalt reels were out of square. None of the
Jobo showed this problem.

David
Rod Smith - 27 Feb 2006 03:02 GMT
> Hello, everyone.  I used to do a lot of darkroom work and had no
> trouble loading 35mm onto stainless steel reels.  Now, after a 4 year
> break, I can't load a full roll for the life of me, even after
> practicing in the light.
>
> I'm using a Kalt reel that I just recently purchased.

Did you buy it new or used? Used reels may be bent, which will cause
problems.

> I have read
> online that Jobo/Hewes reels are the gold standard.  Some have the
> opinion that it's a waste of time to use anything else.  Others seem
> perfectly happy with the less expensive brands.

I've got two generic reels that I bought used, and they give me problems.
I think they're bent. I've also got two Hewes reels that I bought new and
that load very smoothly. That's not really a fair comparison, but it's the
only one I personally can make.

> I am considering buying an inexpensive plastic reel, but only if it
> fits into my stainless steel tank.

Are there any plastic reels that fit inside stainless steel tanks? I've
got a plastic AP tank with both AP and Paterson reels. They're much wider
than my stainless steel reels and wouldn't fit inside my stainless steel
tank. There may be smaller plastic reels, but if so I don't know anything
about them.

Personally, I find the plastic reels harder to load than the Hewes
stainless steel reels, but this is very much a matter of personal
preference; lots of people prefer the plastic reels.

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Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
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Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

UC - 27 Feb 2006 14:07 GMT
I have used Paterson reels and tanks for 35 years without difficulty.

There is nothing better.

> Hello, everyone.  I used to do a lot of darkroom work and had no
> trouble loading 35mm onto stainless steel reels.  Now, after a 4 year
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Thanks for your advice.
> Joseph
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 27 Feb 2006 15:21 GMT
> I have used Paterson reels and tanks for 35 years without difficulty.
>
> There is nothing better.

For a while in the '80s Paterson made reels with a telfon coating. They
were sort of pink colored. The current production ones are good, but
not IMHO as good.

Geoff.
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UC - 27 Feb 2006 15:35 GMT
> > I have used Paterson reels and tanks for 35 years without difficulty.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> were sort of pink colored. The current production ones are good, but
> not IMHO as good.

I have not seen these.

> Geoff.
> --
> Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
> IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667  IL Fax: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
> Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Tom Gardner - 27 Feb 2006 15:44 GMT
>> I have used Paterson reels and tanks for 35 years without difficulty.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Geoff.

I thought I stained them somehow, cool!
Tom Gardner - 27 Feb 2006 15:42 GMT
>I have used Paterson reels and tanks for 35 years without difficulty.
>
> There is nothing better.

Except if they are even slightly moist.
Stewy - 06 Mar 2006 00:45 GMT
> >I have used Paterson reels and tanks for 35 years without difficulty.
> >
> > There is nothing better.
>
> Except if they are even slightly moist.

Many pros keep the spirals in the film drying cabinet
cgrady - 27 Feb 2006 15:58 GMT
I used stainless steel reels for several years in several different
darkrooms.  They have stainless steel ribs but carbon steel hubs.  If
they got dropped they bent.  Check your reel for alignment.  i.e.
CAREFULLY measure to be sure your reel isn't bent.  Good Luck
Clint H.
UC - 27 Feb 2006 16:04 GMT
That's why I don't use SS reels! they get bent and then you're hosed!

> I used stainless steel reels for several years in several different
> darkrooms.  They have stainless steel ribs but carbon steel hubs.  If
> they got dropped they bent.  Check your reel for alignment.  i.e.
> CAREFULLY measure to be sure your reel isn't bent.  Good Luck
> Clint H.
Mike King - 27 Feb 2006 19:14 GMT
Is this a Hewes reel distributed by Jobo?

My personal recommendation is to find and use what works best for you, my
own preference is Hewes reels and Kindermann tanks.  Both are made of
thicker metal than their flimsy counterparts and the Kindermann tanks use
tight fitting plastic lids that don't leak a drop.  For years I thought it
was normal to have developer and god knows what running down my arm when I
lifted and agitated my film.  That changed after I got a Kindermann tank and
lid.  For a cheap alternative Durst made (or at least marketed a Kindermann
tank and lid clone made of plastic that gets the job done, still find them
on auction sites once in a while).

Note that I don't have enough Hewes reels to fill my larger tanks (I have
lots of tanks) so I have a medley of assorted Nikor (Honeywell import not
Nikkor/Nikon) Omega and Kalt.  The lighter gauge wire in these reels will
bend at an unkind word but can usually be straightened out.  (One 120 reel I
had was very frustrating to load, I eventually concluded the problem was
that the dang thing was slightly undersized.)

I usually have extra reels standing by when using the lightweights, if I
can't load it, I stop, practice a few of my more colorful expressions and
try another reel.  My usual practice is to fill tanks with developer, stop
and fix, load all film into a dry tank, cap it and turn on the lights just
long enough to check developer temperature, adjust processing time on my
timer and then turn the lights off and transfer the film to the developer
tank (with 4 and 8 reel tanks, I'll use a lift rod to put the film in the
tank) then cap the tank and agitate by inversion in daylight, when developer
time in almost up the lights go off, the cap comes off and the film is
transferred to the next tank.  Stop and fix get lift and drop agitation and
the lights go back on after 2-3 minutes in the fixer (maybe longer if using
TMax films).  I'll usually use two fixer baths and HCA with TMax and mark
off rolls on the storage jugs just like one would with paper processing,
stop bath and developer are one shot.

I'm also fond of Unicolor and use it on the Unidrum motor base for some
applications and it's especially useful with films like TMax that require a
lot of fixation or for a low volume darkroom.  I can just set the buzzer and
do something else while the film fixes.  (Coffee break or bathroom,
usually.)  Here I am currently using Kodafix diluted as for paper-one
shot-and get good fixing in 5 minutes for TMax.  Nice when you don't have
enough film volume to justify mixing fix by the gallon.  Now that I shoot
only for me and at a pretty low volume (compared at least to what I used to
shoot) I appreciate the convenience and economy of one shot processing.
Nothing ever dies in the jug.

Paterson, etc. also good and a few of the guys I worked for loved it (they
couldn't load ss) but I don't like inverting P-tanks, the old ones leaked
and the newer ones "glug" too much and I got occasional airbells on
negatives, and don't like the swizzle stick agitation much either though
it's better than inversion for me.  Other than that, 10 ounces to process a
roll of film Vs 8 in a s.s. tank is a waste of resources.

Signature

darkroommike

> Hello, everyone.  I used to do a lot of darkroom work and had no
> trouble loading 35mm onto stainless steel reels.  Now, after a 4 year
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Thanks for your advice.
> Joseph
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 27 Feb 2006 23:55 GMT
> ... my own preference is Hewes reels and Kindermann tanks.
>  Both are made of  thicker metal than their flimsy counterparts
>  and the Kindermann tanks use  tight fitting plastic lids that
>  don't leak a drop.

   I'll second all of that. The spirals of my two Kindermann
reels are heavier than the Hewes. Each of the two have different
grips at center reel. There is at least one other configuration.
   My assortment of Kindermanns, tanks and reels, came off
eBay: much below new price. All in excellent shape. Dan
Stewy - 28 Feb 2006 02:01 GMT
> Hello, everyone.  I used to do a lot of darkroom work and had no
> trouble loading 35mm onto stainless steel reels.  Now, after a 4 year
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Jobo really make a difference, or do I just need more practice with the
> reel I have?

When I started deving my own films Patterson sprirals seemed the way to
go with their flexible 3 films in one spiral design. SS seemed just too
fragile - both edges need to be parallel otherwise they don't work.

Inversion worked very well for me and the acquisition of a 16mm spiral
(try that with SS) made it very easy to process any kind of film that
came my way.

It may be a hassle, but I'd humbly suggest selling the kit on ebay and
starting anew with the plastic reels.
David Nebenzahl - 28 Feb 2006 02:47 GMT
Stewy spake thus:

>>Hello, everyone.  I used to do a lot of darkroom work and had no
>>trouble loading 35mm onto stainless steel reels.  Now, after a 4 year
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> It may be a hassle, but I'd humbly suggest selling the kit on ebay and
> starting anew with the plastic reels.

I second that emotion; it may be true that Real Men Use Stainless Steel
Reels, but I say forget it, plastic is so much easier to deal with.

With one caveat: just make sure the reel is *absolutely BONE DRY* before
you start loading it. Plastic reels don't tolerate any moisture; film
will bind every time.

Signature

To the arrogant putzes at NBC:

Do we call the country Italia? Is its capital Roma?
Were previous Olympics held in Moskva, Muenchen or Athine?
Do we call it the "Shroud of Torino"?

No!

So learn to speak English already and call it Turin.

- from someone's blog

Mike King - 28 Feb 2006 04:54 GMT
Actually I own Minox and 16mm stainless spirals, 120, 220, 35mm and 70mm
(holds 15 feet of 70mm), I've seen 127 and 616 reels but haven't had the
need.  I've said before, everyone needs to find what works best for them and
I use both stainless and plastic (Unicolor).  I'm not too keen on Paterson
but I've used them successfully at places I've worked.

As to the wet reel problem you can shake most of the water off and then use
a hair dryer on low to get them bone dry so you can reload but here's
another case of never having enough gear.  With enough reels you can process
all day.

Signature

darkroommike

Rod Smith - 28 Feb 2006 18:50 GMT
> I second that emotion; it may be true that Real Men Use Stainless Steel
> Reels, but I say forget it, plastic is so much easier to deal with.

I say "use whatever works for you." There are probably dozens, if not
hundreds, of variables that affect what works best for any given person --
personal coordination factors (not just good/bad in an absolute sense, but
quirks of ways in which a person is or is not coordinated), type of film
being processed, the condition of the reels, details of reel design (clips
vs. tabs on SS reels, type of plastic used in plastic reels, etc.), and so
on. Absolute pronouncements about whether SS or plastic is better are,
IMHO, worthless. Personal expressions of preference are another matter,
particularly if accompanied by reasons ("Paterson plastic reels jam on me"
or "film jumps spirals and touches in generic SS reels when I load them").
Ultimately, it's a matter of personal preference, not an objective issue.

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Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org - 28 Feb 2006 02:14 GMT
> Hello, everyone.  I used to do a lot of darkroom work and had no
> trouble loading 35mm onto stainless steel reels.  Now, after a 4 year
> break, I can't load a full roll for the life of me, even after
> practicing in the light.

What happens to prevent you from successfully loading
the reel?  Does the film bind in a particular place, or does
it get off-center?  If you don't get the film entering the reel
quite straight, by the time you are getting to the end, one of
the edges tries to dive under the spiral and overlap the
previous turn.
Joseph O'Brien - 28 Feb 2006 03:11 GMT
Thanks to everyone for your replies.  At this point, I think going with
the Hewes reel would be most economical, since I already have a
stainless steel tank.  Otherwise, if I bought a plastic reel, I would
have to buy a matching tank.

bjw, to answer your question, it tends to bind up at one spot about 3/4
through the roll.  I have looked for irregularities, but I can't find a
bent wire or anything.  The whole thing actually looks kind of wonky,
now that I look at it.  The center part appears to be angled, and the
spirals certainly aren't consistently parallel.  No wonder I had
trouble.

I'm still going to get the Hewes reel, rather than try to straighten
this out.

Thanks again for your suggestions.

Joseph
Nick Zentena - 28 Feb 2006 21:16 GMT
> Hello, everyone.  I used to do a lot of darkroom work and had no
> trouble loading 35mm onto stainless steel reels.  Now, after a 4 year
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Jobo really make a difference, or do I just need more practice with the
> reel I have?

 Did anybody mention the Jobo Hewes reels are intended for Jobo 15xx type
tanks? Not for common stainless tanks. If you want a reel to fit those then
look for the plain Hewes not the Jobo Hewes reel. Now if you want a new tank
then get the Jobo Hewes reel and which ever Jobo tank tickles your fancy.
Just make sure it's a 1500 series tank and not the bigger 2500.

    Nick
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"Digital the new ice fishing"
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JON  NOXON - 28 Feb 2006 22:50 GMT
Nick and the group:

The outside diameter of the Jobo version of the Hewes reels is the same as
Nikkor reels. The Jobo version is made to fit the plastic rod in the 1500
series Jobo tanks. Nikkor reels, and most of the others I have seen have a
smaller core diameter that does not fit the Jobo rod. I believe Jobo offered
a special rod to fit the standard Hewes reels too.

Bottom line: get the Jobo version for the plastic rod (core) used in the
1500 series tanks. I purchased these reels for my Jobo system.

Loading the stainless steel reels takes a little practice with scrap film,
but is easily mastered.

Another caveat: never use PhotoFlo with the reels. Take the film off the
reel first! This is probably doubly important with plastic reels.

Hope this helps.

Jon

>> Hello, everyone.  I used to do a lot of darkroom work and had no
>> trouble loading 35mm onto stainless steel reels.  Now, after a 4 year
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>     Nick
UC - 28 Feb 2006 23:00 GMT
> Another caveat: never use PhotoFlo with the reels. Take the film off the
> reel first! This is probably doubly important with plastic reels.

Utter bullshit. I have been using photflo for decades just that way.

You're very likely to damage the film handling it trying to wet it. I
dop a little photoflo into the tank, and agitate. I then hang the films
to dry, and immediately pour the photoflo over the hanging films, to
make sure they get evenly wet.

> Hope this helps.
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> > "Digital the new ice fishing"
> > ---------------------------------------
David Nebenzahl - 28 Feb 2006 23:04 GMT
JON NOXON spake thus:

> Another caveat: never use PhotoFlo with the reels. Take the film off the
> reel first! This is probably doubly important with plastic reels.

I've never heard this before. Why not? I user Photo-Flo all the time
with film on the reel (plastic) and have never had any problems.

Signature

To the arrogant putzes at NBC:

Do we call the country Italia? Is its capital Roma?
Were previous Olympics held in Moskva, Muenchen or Athine?
Do we call it the "Shroud of Torino"?

No!

So learn to speak English already and call it Turin.

- from someone's blog

Jean-David Beyer - 28 Feb 2006 23:04 GMT
> JON NOXON spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I've never heard this before. Why not? I user Photo-Flo all the time
> with film on the reel (plastic) and have never had any problems.

I hear it from time-to-time, but I find it makes no difference provided you
rinse the reels thoroughly in hot water after processing before the reels
have a chance to dry.

While I make no attempt to convince anyone, I find Nikor Stainless Steel
reels very easy to load. I have used Jobo 1500 series and they were a pain.
I now use Jobo 2500 series reels and they are very good, but stainless is
better.

I use Jobo because I have their system and it is good enough, though once in
a while I swear a lot when loading 35 mm films in hot muggy summers when I
cannot keep my hands dry enough.

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David Nebenzahl - 28 Feb 2006 23:10 GMT
Jean-David Beyer spake thus:

>> JON NOXON spake thus:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> rinse the reels thoroughly in hot water after processing before the reels
> have a chance to dry.

I don't even see why that should be a concern: Photo-Flo is very
water-soluble and can just be rinsed off with cold water. (After all,
it's basically just detergent.)

Signature

To the arrogant putzes at NBC:

Do we call the country Italia? Is its capital Roma?
Were previous Olympics held in Moskva, Muenchen or Athine?
Do we call it the "Shroud of Torino"?

No!

So learn to speak English already and call it Turin.

- from someone's blog

dan.c.quinn@att.net - 28 Feb 2006 23:21 GMT
> Another caveat: never use PhotoFlo with the reels.
> Take the film off the reel first! This is probably doubly
> important with plastic reels. Hope this helps.  Jon

  With plastic or stainless I've for years used Photo Flo.
I think implying that some danger exists in doing so
has no grounds. Dan
Nick Zentena - 28 Feb 2006 23:52 GMT
> Nick and the group:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> smaller core diameter that does not fit the Jobo rod. I believe Jobo offered
> a special rod to fit the standard Hewes reels too.

 Yup that's right. Need the special centre column with the Hewes reels.
OTOH I don't think he has a Jobo tank so he's likely better off with just
normal Hewes reels.

      Nick

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---------------------------------------
"Digital the new ice fishing"
---------------------------------------

 
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