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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2006

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Advice sought on scanning b/w negatives

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kenneth.kaiser@gmail.com - 25 Feb 2006 22:21 GMT
I have a black and white darkroom. I use 4x5, 6x12, 35mm negatives and
have two enlargers.
I would like to scan the negatives and invert the image for a contact
sheet proof before printing the negatives. This is the only use that I
have for the scanner and software.
I have a PC and a printer, what would you recommend for a scanner and
software to do this?
If there are a more appropriate groups to post this to, that would also
be appreciated.
Thanks, Ken Kaiser
rafe b - 26 Feb 2006 00:15 GMT
>I have a black and white darkroom. I use 4x5, 6x12, 35mm negatives and
>have two enlargers.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>be appreciated.
>Thanks, Ken Kaiser

Epson 4990 is probably your best bet right now,
though it's overkill if all you want is contact
sheets.

If the $400 is too high, look for one of the
older Epson photo/flatbeds on eBay.  Eg., even
the old Epson 1640 will scan 4x5.

One advantage of the 4990 is that the entire
surface of the scan bed is available for
transparencies -- that's not true for the
older Epson photo/flatbeds or for the less
expensive current models (3490, 4490.)

Any image editor will do.  Try Photoshop
Elements or Photoshop LE, for example.

rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 26 Feb 2006 22:31 GMT
> >I have a black and white darkroom. I use 4x5, 6x12, 35mm negatives
> >I would like to scan the negatives and invert the image for a contact
> >sheet proof before printing the negatives.
>
> Epson 4990 is probably your best bet right now,
> though it's overkill if all you want is contact sheets.

  I think the 4990 is overkill in the mind of the OP
and myself. I've a scanner to buy as well. A  B&W negative
and print scanning unit is needed. What of those integrated
units; scanner-copier-printer? Any of those that do a good
job of all three? The prices on those units seems
ridiculously low. Dan
David Nebenzahl - 26 Feb 2006 23:22 GMT
dan.c.quinn@att.net spake thus:

>>> I have a black and white darkroom. I use 4x5, 6x12, 35mm
>>> negatives I would like to scan the negatives and invert the image
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> job of all three? The prices on those units seems
> ridiculously low. Dan

I'll give you 3 guesses why they're so cheap, and the first 2 don't count.

I think the other respondent's suggestion of using a cheap HP scanner
equipped to scan film would be just the thing. (Probably others out
there in the same price range, no?)

Signature

To the arrogant putzes at NBC:

Do we call the country Italia? Is its capital Roma?
Were previous Olympics held in Moskva, Muenchen or Athine?
Do we call it the "Shroud of Torino"?

No!

So learn to speak English already and call it Turin.

- from someone's blog

rafe b - 27 Feb 2006 01:12 GMT
>I think the 4990 is overkill in the mind of the OP
>and myself. I've a scanner to buy as well. A  B&W negative
>and print scanning unit is needed. What of those integrated
>units; scanner-copier-printer? Any of those that do a good
>job of all three? The prices on those units seems
>ridiculously low. Dan

The problem is that most scanners are built to
scan reflective targets.  The OP is trying to
scan transmissive targets, aka transparencies.

The cheap film-scanning HPs generally only
handle 35mm filmstrips and slides.  The OP
needs a transparency scanner for large media.

MFPs won't buy you anything.  They're just a
cheap flatbed scanner in the same box as a
cheap inkjet printer.  Very handy as occasional
copiers (even standalone) but not useful for
the OP's purposes.

That's the problem in a nutshell.

rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
Lloyd Erlick - 28 Feb 2006 12:47 GMT
>> >I have a black and white darkroom. I use 4x5, 6x12, 35mm negatives
>> >I would like to scan the negatives and invert the image for a contact
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>job of all three? The prices on those units seems
>ridiculously low. Dan

February 28, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

Is there a combination unit that has the
ability to scan transparencies as well? What
about 8x10 transparency (to permit scanning a
roll of negs in protective filing sleeve)?

I'm suspicious of combo machines. Jack of all
trades, master of none. If my telephone was
also an electric toothbrush, my problems
would be over. Really, the health of our
nation would cease to be an issue if only we
combined stationary bicycles with electrical
generators and computers ... and TVs.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Lloyd Erlick - 28 Feb 2006 12:27 GMT
>One advantage of the 4990 is that the entire
>surface of the scan bed is available for
>transparencies -- that's not true for the
>older Epson photo/flatbeds or for the less
>expensive current models (3490, 4490.)

February 28, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

This is a huge consideration.

I agree the 4990 is overkill for
surrogate-contact sheets and general negative
catalog work, but that is my use for it.

However, 'contacting' goes much faster if a
whole roll of negs can be done at once while
still in the filing sleeve. There should be
no necessity of separating negatives and
handling them in bare naked unprotected
strips. The length of time per 'contact
sheet' would go through the roof that way.

I use the 4990 to only a small fraction of
its capabilities, I'm sure. But the ability
to scan a full sheet of negs in their sleeve,
and then to view my work on-screen
immediately, is just terrific. In a few cases
I can select a negative for more careful
scanning, out of its sleeve, if desired.

My darkroom work has been completely changed
by the scanner; I'm far more productive now.
When I go into the darkroom I know which
frame I'm going to concentrate on, and I've
been able to do all sorts of cropping
experiments. The monitor image is far more
versatile than contact sheets on paper. I can
enlarge a face and examine the expression
much more effectively than on a paper contact
with a magnifying glass.

When I started looking for a scanner (needed
to replace my old HP 4C, which I loved...) I
immediately realized a flatbed that could
accept a full sheet of negs in transparency
mode was rare. The 4990 seemed to be almost
the only option. A very nice side benefit has
been the ability to select a tiny detail in a
negative and scan it at very high resolution
like 4800 ppi so it can be enlarged onscreen
for a clear view. For my purposes this has
been only for examination purposes, not
print-making, but it helps understand my negs
in certain cases.

I'm far from an expert in the computer world,
but I've had no trouble getting used to
working the 4990. In short order I was able
to start getting good enough scans for my
purposes. I've started filling my hard drive
up with all sorts of weird and wonderful
material from my past. The document turning
down my father when he tried to enlist in the
Canadian military in 1942 is a real peach.
There is a space for the authorities to write
the 'reason for medical unfitness'. The
reason entered is 'medically unfit'. I love
the form fillers of our world. This
particular one probably kept my father alive
— and me, too.

I rarely make contract sheets on paper any
more. I copy specific frames from my
whole-roll scans, and assemble directories of
the selected images. Then I can live with the
better frames for a while, until I have
edited them down to the  ones I will work on
in the darkroom. Sometimes I used to make a
computer print of a frame I like, which helps
visualize it, but lately I've had no printer
and really haven't missed it.

After editing a portrait session onscreen, I
usually make a CD of the selected frames and
send it to the client. A printer is very nice
to have because I can choose a nice frame
from a portrait session and make up a cover
image for the CD. It's easy to do and makes a
very good impression.

Although the 4990 is fairly expensive, it is
justified because a slower or less competent
scanner would not be suitable. The 4990 is
slow enough! Scanning ten to twenty rolls
from a session takes long enough even though
the thing cost plenty!

Going slower is out of the question. A 4990
that goes even faster would be nice!

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

cgrady - 26 Feb 2006 08:24 GMT
Ken,
I just spent about a month shopping for a scanner for some old family
negatives.  I am getting an HP 4890 flat bed scanner.  It comes with
frames for 16 slides and negative strips.  It is only about $200.  Good
luck with your project.
Clint Herndon
Craig Schroeder - 27 Feb 2006 00:45 GMT
I had similar intentions and bought a Canon 9950F when they first came
out.  After I learned to run the thing, I was getting very decent B&W
prints when I needed something quick, especially from 120 and 4X5. I'm
now quite pleased that I made the purchase as it has become usable for
more than I first had guessed.  I'm still 95% wet darkroom but these
scans and a simple HP Photosmart 8450 (3 black/gray colors) can
deliver surprising results with a bit of tweaking....  It might be a
reflection of my darkroom skills, but I've actually gotten some
hard-to-print negatives to deliver better via the scans and deliver
good tonality on the printer that I wasn't quite getting in the
darkroom...  It takes a bit of courage to admit that publicly!

>I have a black and white darkroom. I use 4x5, 6x12, 35mm negatives and
>have two enlargers.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I have a PC and a printer, what would you recommend for a scanner and
>software to do this?

Craig Schroeder
craig nospam craigschroeder com
rafe b - 27 Feb 2006 01:12 GMT
>It might be a
>reflection of my darkroom skills, but I've actually gotten some
>hard-to-print negatives to deliver better via the scans and deliver
>good tonality on the printer that I wasn't quite getting in the
>darkroom...  It takes a bit of courage to admit that publicly!

I won't hold it against you, Craig.   But others might.

<grin>

rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
Rod Smith - 27 Feb 2006 01:29 GMT
> It might be a
> reflection of my darkroom skills, but I've actually gotten some
> hard-to-print negatives to deliver better via the scans and deliver
> good tonality on the printer that I wasn't quite getting in the
> darkroom...  It takes a bit of courage to admit that publicly!

What I've found is that a scanner (or my Minolta DiMAGE Scan Elite 5400 as
driven by VueScan, anyhow) is very good at extracting the full scale of
densities from a negative, compared to printing. This is most commonly
noticeable in scenes with cloudy skies; a scan produces noticeable, and
even dramatic, detail in the clouds along with a good range of tones
outside of the sky. A print of the same negative produces little or no
detail in the clouds and/or lost detail in the shadows. The only way I've
found to recover detail in both areas in the darkroom is to burn the sky
in. (I've less than a year's experience in the wet darkroom, though;
perhaps there's a technique I don't know about that'd do the job.)

That said, scans of B&W negatives just don't cut it when it comes to
recording subtle tonal changes, particularly in dark areas (of the final
images; light areas of the negative); they tend to break up into harsh
pixel patterns, and printing on an injet printer just makes it worse.
Thus, with a little burning, I find it's usually possible to get superior
results in a conventional darkroom. I've a couple of negatives I have yet
to print satisfactorily in the darkroom but for which I have good scans,
though. Still, I do expect to eventually learn enough to get them done.

Signature

Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

rafe b - 27 Feb 2006 03:07 GMT
>That said, scans of B&W negatives just don't cut it when it comes to
>recording subtle tonal changes, particularly in dark areas (of the final
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>to print satisfactorily in the darkroom but for which I have good scans,
>though. Still, I do expect to eventually learn enough to get them done.

It takes some practice and experimentation, is all.

Lots of scanner drivers (including NikonScan)
misbehave badly on BW negatives.

So one simple workaround is to scan them as
positives.  Try RGB (positive) and grayscale
(positive) and see which works best.  Scan in
16-bit mode.  Then invert in Photoshop and
apply the standard manipulations for tonal
range (black point, white point, etc.)

Here's a crappy old Tri-X shot scanned that
way on the LS-8000.  Scanned as 16-bit positive,
grayscale, and inverted in Photoshop.

Small overview of full frame:
<http://www.terrapinphoto.com/bw/bw_overview.jpg>

Full-res, 2000x2000 pixel (0.5" x 0.5") detail:
<http://www.terrapinphoto.com/bw/bw_detail.jpg>

Printing BW on inkjets is another whole issue.
Again, not trivial but it can be done.  The
Epson 2400 has three "shades" of black and does
an excellent job of it.

rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
LR Kalajainen - 27 Feb 2006 14:01 GMT
While burning and dodging will always be necessary tools in a wet
darkroom, a couple of tips from a 35-year vet may be helpful:

Make sure your film speed and development times are accurate for your
equipment to give you both shadow and highlight detail on your neg.

When you print, the use of VC paper combined with a split-filter
technique will often save you a lot of burning and dodging.  If you're
using multicontrast filters, give one exposure with the highest contrast
filter and one with the lowest.  Arrive at the times through running
test strips of each.  If using a colorhead, give one at full magenta and
one at full yellow.  When doing your test strips, you'll want the yellow
(lowest contrast) exposure that will give you the desired amount of
detail in the brightest highlights (excluding specular highlights, of
course) and with the magenta (high contrast) exposure, the desired
amount of detail in the most important shadow areas.  Example, 12
seconds magenta and 6 seconds yellow at f/11 or whatever f stop you
prefer.  You'll be amazed at how quickly you'll arrive at a really good
work print, and how little final manipulation of burning and dodging
you'll have to do.  You can burn or dodge to increase or decrease
density increasing or decreasing both exposures.  You can burn or dodge
to increase or decrease contrast by increasing or decreasing only one of
the exposures.  Takes a little practice to get your head into it at
first, but will save you a lot of pain and time and paper when you do.  
And, it will give you visible improvement in the local contrast, i.e.
the contrast within a given tone in the print.  This will give your
prints that luminous glow--- make them "sing."

>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
>  
UC - 28 Feb 2006 01:50 GMT
> While burning and dodging will always be necessary tools in a wet
> darkroom, a couple of tips from a 35-year vet may be helpful:

Very rarely is it necessary to burn and dodge. Usually this is caused
by overdeveloping the film, resulting in excessivly contrasty
negatives.

> Make sure your film speed and development times are accurate for your
> equipment to give you both shadow and highlight detail on your neg.

It would be nice if you told him HOW.

> When you print, the use of VC paper combined with a split-filter
> technique will often save you a lot of burning and dodging.

Completely false. It makes no difference whatsoever. The silver grains
don't care in which order they are exposed. Most prints look just
gorgeous when printed at the normal grade (grade 3 for 35mm).

> If you're
> using multicontrast filters, give one exposure with the highest contrast
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> the contrast within a given tone in the print.  This will give your
> prints that luminous glow--- make them "sing."

Complete bullshit.

> >>It might be a
> >>reflection of my darkroom skills, but I've actually gotten some
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> >
> >  
Lloyd Erlick - 28 Feb 2006 12:47 GMT
On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 01:29:57 -0000,
rodsmith@nessus.rodsbooks.com (Rod Smith)
wrote:

>The only way I've
>found to recover detail in both areas in the darkroom is to burn the sky
>in. (I've less than a year's experience in the wet darkroom, though;
>perhaps there's a technique I don't know about that'd do the job.)

February 28, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

There is a lot contained in the short phrase
'burn the sky in'. I put my hands into the
light path under the enlarger, and right away
we're into an old-tech hands-on, hands-in,
analog, manual, seat-of-the-pants hold your
tongue the right way activity. At least it's
still dry at that point.

I don't think there is a technique you don't
know about. Just do it often enough to get
used to it. I find it pleasurable; rewarding,
in Ansel Adams' terminology. The computer
doesn't reward me that way. Personal
conditioning, I suppose ...

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Dick - 27 Feb 2006 15:43 GMT
> I would like to scan the negatives and invert the image for a contact
> sheet proof before printing the negatives. This is the only use that I
> have for the scanner and software.

I spent a long time trying to find a way to scan negs on a regular flat
bed scanner and it is so easy I didn't believe it when I read that you
can just place the negs on the glass and if the backing cover is black
place a sheet of white paper over them to reflect the light. Of course
it is not needed if the cover is white already.
Then most image software can invert the image from negative to
positive. I recommend Irfanview which has the advantage of being free.
http://www.irfanview.com/
David Nebenzahl - 27 Feb 2006 20:13 GMT
Dick spake thus:

>> I would like to scan the negatives and invert the image for a
>> contact sheet proof before printing the negatives. This is the only
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> cover is black place a sheet of white paper over them to reflect the
> light. Of course it is not needed if the cover is white already.

The problem with this method is that you end up "seeing" twice the
density in the negative. Think about it: the light has to travel through
the film twice, once towards the cover, the next time reflected towards
the scanner. So you effectively double (quadruple?) the contrast.

Signature

To the arrogant putzes at NBC:

Do we call the country Italia? Is its capital Roma?
Were previous Olympics held in Moskva, Muenchen or Athine?
Do we call it the "Shroud of Torino"?

No!

So learn to speak English already and call it Turin.

- from someone's blog

ponchosanza - 27 Feb 2006 23:08 GMT
Get a used 4870 on Ebay. It will do all you want and more. Furthermore
it will be reliable, simple to operate, and you will be happy. I use
one at home and a 4990 at work, in terms of product there's not a
dime's worth of difference between them.
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 27 Feb 2006 23:29 GMT
> Dick spake thus:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The problem with this method is that you end up "seeing" twice the
> density in the negative.

  I've a few where twice the density would be a big improvement.
  Any scanner with a D-Max capability of 3 or better should handle
just about any negative. I think Dick may have some experience
with the method. Dan
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 27 Feb 2006 23:07 GMT
> > I would like to scan the negatives and invert the image for a contact
> > sheet proof before printing the negatives. This is the only use that I
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> positive. I recommend Irfanview which has the advantage of being free.
> http://www.irfanview.com/

  I wondered about that. That idea popped into my mind; a white
back-up sheet might do the job. I'm going to do some shopping
for a better quality 3 in 1 machine. Any suggestions?  Dan
rafe b - 28 Feb 2006 01:44 GMT
>I spent a long time trying to find a way to scan negs on a regular flat
>bed scanner and it is so easy I didn't believe it when I read that you
>can just place the negs on the glass and if the backing cover is black
>place a sheet of white paper over them to reflect the light. Of course
>it is not needed if the cover is white already.

Tried this on a 4990 and results were awful.

Here are two strips of BW 35 mm scanned as reflective material:
<http://www.terrapinphoto.com/bw/trix_flatb.jpg>

Here are the same two strips scanned as transparencies:
<http://www.terrapinphoto.com/bw/trix_transp.jpg>

These are both straight off the scanner with
no manipulations in Photoshop other than
scaling and conversion to JPG.

Bottom line: not enough light reflecting off
the white background.

rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 28 Feb 2006 22:59 GMT
> Tried this on a 4990 and results were awful.
>
> Bottom line: not enough light reflecting off
> the white background.

 And I wouldn't screw a higher watt bulb into a $400 scanner.
The 4990 must not be designed for use as a reflecting scanner.
How could a printed sheet for copy differ so much as a negative
against a snow white reflective back-up. And I don't buy that "the
light must pass twice through" argument. Absorbed twice I'd
think more likely correct. After all what is a B&W print? It
is a silvered emulsion against a white background.
 A quick shop last night leads me to believe that a white
backer mat is likely standard; at least on the inexpensive AIO
units. Some of them score well in PC Mag. reviews.  Dan
David Nebenzahl - 28 Feb 2006 23:15 GMT
dan.c.quinn@att.net spake thus:

>> Tried this on a 4990 and results were awful.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> against a snow white reflective back-up. And I don't buy that "the
> light must pass twice through" argument.

How can you not "buy" that? That's exactly what happens. It's obvious
and needs no explanation.

So far as prints go, they work exactly the same way. If you could
somehow strip the emulsion off a print and view it by transmission, it
would be a hell of a lot thinner and less contrasty than attached to the
substrate.

Signature

To the arrogant putzes at NBC:

Do we call the country Italia? Is its capital Roma?
Were previous Olympics held in Moskva, Muenchen or Athine?
Do we call it the "Shroud of Torino"?

No!

So learn to speak English already and call it Turin.

- from someone's blog

rafe b - 01 Mar 2006 01:32 GMT
>How can you not "buy" that? That's exactly what happens. It's obvious
>and needs no explanation.

And what hadn't occured to me -- till I thought
about it -- is that the illumination from the
scanner is *attenuated* twice.  As opposed to the
light from a proper TPA, which passes through
the film once.

So... two reasons for the poor result.  First,
the two passes through the film, and second,
a large loss in having to reflect off the white
backing on scanner lid.

FWIW: I repeated the experiment on a Lexmark
X6170 MFP, and results were much the same.

rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 01 Mar 2006 11:23 GMT
> dan.c.quinn@att.net spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> would be a hell of a lot thinner and less contrasty than attached to the
> substrate.

  "So far as prints go, they work exactly the same way". That's
what I thought. See my above previous post. I do make some
allowance for fb + f and I'd think Max D.
  Perhaps the 4990 is not a reflection scanner. I don't recall
a word of it's capability as one. I'd give it more of a study if I were
interested at this time in such a high end product. Did you take
a look at the scans rafe posted?
   As for "the light must pass ..." I think it just as correct to
say "the light must not pass ..." Of course we expect near none
to near all the light incident upon the subject be reflected. Dan
Scott W - 01 Mar 2006 18:47 GMT
>    "So far as prints go, they work exactly the same way". That's
> what I thought. See my above previous post. I do make some
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> say "the light must not pass ..." Of course we expect near none
> to near all the light incident upon the subject be reflected. Dan

So I tried it both ways on my scanner, an Epson 1650.  The results from
using reflective light were even worst then I thought they would be.
Not only are the highlights blown but also the dust on the negative
shows up way more in reflective light then transmitted.
http://www.pbase.com/image/56688137

When scanning if refective mode the DMax of the scanner does not enter
into it as there is so much scattering off the front of the negative as
to swamp the effects of the dynamic range of the scanner.

IN short you need to back light negatives when scanner or you are going
to get crap.

Scott
rafe b - 28 Feb 2006 23:46 GMT
> And I wouldn't screw a higher watt bulb into a $400 scanner.
> The 4990 must not be designed for use as a reflecting scanner.

You have no idea what you're talking about,
but I really don't care.  I bought it to scan LF
(4x5) film, and that's really all I care about.

I'm not going to waste my time "proving" you
wrong, because you're obviously smarter than
me or Epson's engineering staff.

> How could a printed sheet for copy differ so much as a negative
> against a snow white reflective back-up.

Because the intensity of the reflected light is
nowhere near strong enough to penetrate a
normal (much less a dense) BW negative -
not just once, but twice.  What other conclusion
can you draw from the results I posted?

> A quick shop last night leads me to believe that a white
> backer mat is likely standard; at least on the inexpensive AIO
> units.

Umm, Dan, I've done what I can to give you some
hints.  If it were so easy and simple to scan film with
a simple flatbed scanner, why would folks spend big
bucks on film scanners?

You're free to ignore my hints and do what you like,
of course.  If you think a cheap MFP will work
better, have at it.  Let us know how it works out.

rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 01 Mar 2006 00:48 GMT
> If it were so easy and simple to scan film with
> a simple flatbed scanner, why would folks spend big
> bucks on film scanners?

  4800 x 9600 resolution and 48 bit depth.  That's
enough right there to start the saliva flowing.
  Not to overlook the obvious: some need the quality
and multitude of features. Dan
Scott W - 01 Mar 2006 08:12 GMT
> > If it were so easy and simple to scan film with
> > a simple flatbed scanner, why would folks spend big
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>    Not to overlook the obvious: some need the quality
> and multitude of features. Dan
I hope you like blown out highlights, you're are going to see a lot
of them.

Scott
Two - 01 Mar 2006 00:45 GMT
>  And I wouldn't screw a higher watt bulb into a $400 scanner.

I just cannot imagine what the hell you are talking about. You can't change
the bulb in a scanner like that, and you cannot scan a negative on a flatbed
scanner with any good results  without a toplight. I'm  afraid I have to put
you into the bitbucket of crazies unless you can SHOW us what you are
talking about!  Incredible claims require incredible proof.

Nutz stuff.
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 01 Mar 2006 12:13 GMT
> Tried this on a 4990 and results were awful.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Bottom line: not enough light reflecting off
> the white background.  rafe b

  Are you sure they are "awful" ? That is a Max D 4
machine. Even at double density a good Max D 3 should
do for many negatives. BTW, those white backers I looked
at were every bit as white and bright as any
baryta I've seen. Dan
rafe b - 01 Mar 2006 12:53 GMT
>Are you sure they are "awful" ? That is a Max D 4
>machine. Even at double density a good Max D 3 should
>do for many negatives. BTW, those white backers I looked
>at were every bit as white and bright as any
>baryta I've seen. Dan

Dan, there's a place for conjecture and
speculation, and a place for actually
trying stuff out.  I do both, of course,
but so far from you all I've seen is the
former.

The Epson 4990 is a flatbed/film scanner,
but only a fool with money to burn would
buy it to scan office documents.

It's not that the 4990 can't do the job
(it most certainly can) but that it would
be overkill.  What you pay for in the 4990
is the ability to scan large-format
*transparencies,* up to 8x10".  It has a
clever and unique lighting system (a moving
CCFL in the cover) for doing just that.

When scanning reflectives, that "moving
lamp in the cover" is left off, and a
white backing is inserted over the TPA
unit.  IOW, it reverts to a completely
standard and typical flatbed scanner
configuration.

If one's goal was to scan reflectives
only, a $45 Canon Lide 24 would do the
job nicely.

I don't even pay that much mind to the
resolution or Dmax specs on the Epson.  
They're hugely inflated, but for $400,
there's nothing remotely comparable from
any "serious" scanner manufacturer (say,
Scitex or Imacon or Nikon.)

With regard to "backers" and "baryta," I
haven't a clue as to what you're talking
about.

rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
bjw@mambo.ucolick.org - 01 Mar 2006 16:45 GMT
> >Are you sure they are "awful" ? That is a Max D 4
> >machine. Even at double density a good Max D 3 should
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> haven't a clue as to what you're talking
> about.

I think Dan is saying that the white backing thing on a
flatbed is as white as photographic paper, and so
scanning a negative pressed up against the backing
should be like scanning a print.  It isn't, of course.
Just putting a negative on a piece of paper and
shining a light on it will show this - it looks crap.
The same is true for slides, that's why handheld
slide viewers that you hold up to the light exist.

Images meant to be viewed by transillumination
(negatives) are different from images meant to be
viewed by reflected light.  Similarly, if you take a nice
print and view it by transillumination against a
light source, it looks different, and not only because
of the base density of the paper.
David Nebenzahl - 01 Mar 2006 20:06 GMT
bjw@mambo.ucolick.org spake thus:

> Images meant to be viewed by transillumination
> (negatives) are different from images meant to be
> viewed by reflected light.  Similarly, if you take a nice
> print and view it by transillumination against a
> light source, it looks different, and not only because
> of the base density of the paper.

So now we have come full circle, folks, and put the question to rest:
yes, it does hurt when you hit yourself in the head with a hammer. So we
can stop, right? and get on to other questions.

Signature

To the arrogant putzes at NBC:

Do we call the country Italia? Is its capital Roma?
Were previous Olympics held in Moskva, Muenchen or Athine?
Do we call it the "Shroud of Torino"?

No!

So learn to speak English already and call it Turin.

- from someone's blog

dan.c.quinn@att.net - 02 Mar 2006 00:19 GMT
> So now we have come full circle, folks, and put the
> question to rest:  So we can stop, right? and get on
> to other questions.

 Dick's post this thread 2/27; "...place a sheet of white
paper over..." Read that post. He certainly implies that the
method works and works well. He even mentions the or a
software to use.
 My take off on this thread is from that post. I still wonder
at the questionable results had by some. So lingers still in my
mind questions of equipment and Exact technique. Dan
Two - 02 Mar 2006 00:50 GMT
>  Dick's post this thread 2/27; "...place a sheet of white
> paper over..." Read that post. He certainly implies that the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> at the questionable results had by some. So lingers still in my
> mind questions of equipment and Exact technique. Dan

Try it yourself? Never worked for me. Not one bit.
rafe b - 02 Mar 2006 15:50 GMT
> Try it yourself?

Nah, that would be too sensible and simple.

Much more fun to speculate and question the
results of those who've actually done so.

rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
David Nebenzahl - 03 Mar 2006 02:06 GMT
rafe b spake thus:

>> Try it yourself?
>
> Nah, that would be too sensible and simple.
>
> Much more fun to speculate and question the
> results of those who've actually done so.

That, and to constantly try to convert the world to the One True
Religion (single-tray processing).

Signature

To the arrogant putzes at NBC:

Do we call the country Italia? Is its capital Roma?
Were previous Olympics held in Moskva, Muenchen or Athine?
Do we call it the "Shroud of Torino"?

No!

So learn to speak English already and call it Turin.

- from someone's blog

reboot - 27 Feb 2006 17:17 GMT
>I have a black and white darkroom. I use 4x5, 6x12, 35mm negatives and
> have two enlargers.
> I would like to scan the negatives and invert the image for a contact
> sheet proof before printing the negatives.

On the Day Job I do exactly that with an Epson 1640XL with the transparency
option. You can gang-scan up to eight 4x5 transparencies/negatives at a
time. Doing so many at once means that you make the same compromises you
might with ordinary contact printing of so many at once, but it works for
proofing quite well. If you choose this approach, and want to use the whole
scanning bed, then you will have to buy two sets of negative holders. No big
deal, really.
 
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