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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2006

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Tri-x 400 exp. 1600

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D&M - 23 Feb 2006 09:10 GMT
Hello,
i photographed a concert and i exposed my film to1600Iso,
hour like i can develop it?
Which the better one compromised and how i should agitate my tank?
Sorry but i don't know the english and this is a internet traslate.:-)

Thanks for all

From Italia Mario Caroni

http://www.mariocaroni.it
Mike King - 23 Feb 2006 13:49 GMT
Since the film has already been exposed at EI 1600 your best chance would be
to process in Diafine if you can find it in Italy (I believe that Tetenal
makes a similar two-part developer but Tetenal is hard to find in the US and
I have not personally tested their product).

Signature

darkroommike

> Hello,
> i photographed a concert and i exposed my film to1600Iso,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> http://www.mariocaroni.it
UC - 23 Feb 2006 13:59 GMT
> Hello,
> i photographed a concert and i exposed my film to1600Iso,
> hour like i can develop it?

You underexposed it, preumably. There is really no cure for
underexposure. Next time, use a faster film.

> Which the better one compromised and how i should agitate my tank?
> Sorry but i don't know the english and this is a internet traslate.:-)
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> http://www.mariocaroni.it
Michael Gudzinowicz - 23 Feb 2006 14:15 GMT
> Hello,
> i photographed a concert and i exposed my film to1600Iso,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> http://www.mariocaroni.it

The link for Kodak's technical data for Tri-X 400 is:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4017/f4017.pdf

The agitation instructions are:

"Small-Tank Processing (8- or 16-ounce tank)"

"With small single- or double-reel tanks, drop the loaded film reel into the
developer and attach the top to the tank. Firmly tap the tank on the top of the
work surface to dislodge any air bubbles. Provide initial agitation of 5 to 7
inversion cycles in 5 seconds; i.e., extend your arm and vigorously twist your
wrist 180 degrees."

"Then repeat this agitation procedure at 30-second intervals for the rest of the
development time."

There is a section on "Push Processing" Tri-X at 1600 that has detailed time
and temperature suggestions for the following developers: TMax, TMax RS, HC110B,
D76, D76 (1+1), XTOL, and XTOL (1+1).

Technical data for Ilford with development tables is on the web. Their
publications include data for Tri-X.

The link to their film developers is:

http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/bw.html

The links from the European Product catalog
(http://www.ilford.com/EuroPAL/default.asp)
don't appear to be working.

For powdered developers (ID-11, Microphen, Perceptol):

http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/pdf/powder_dev.pdf

Ilford's agitation method is different:

"The following agitation is recommended for spiral
tank processing with ILFORD chemicals. Invert the
tank four times during the first 10 seconds. Repeat
these four inversions during the first 10 seconds of
each subsequent minute of development. At the
end of each agitation sequence tap the tank firmly
on the work bench to dislodge any air bubbles
which may be trapped in the processing spiral.
This method of agitation should also be used with
the fixer."

"Drain off the developer 10 seconds before the end
of the development time immediately fill the tank
with the next process solution."

My first choice would be undiluted Microphen, followed
by undiluted XTOL, D76 and ID11.

All times are for a diffusion enlarger head. For a condenser
head, decrease the times by 20% (use 4/5 the diffusion time).

Also, I'd suggest shooting a few frames of Tri-X on an unexposed
roll under similar conditions that your film was exposed (same
lighting & metering method), cut the exposed frames out of the
camera in the dark, and process it for testing.
and
Gianni Rondinini - 23 Feb 2006 16:20 GMT
>i photographed a concert and i exposed my film to1600Iso,
>hour like i can develop it?

<italian>
dai un'occhiata a www.digitaltruth.com poi segui il link per la
"massive development chart". li' trovi tempi per tantissime
combinazioni pellicola/sviluppo.

for english folks, i just suggested to follow the link to the massive
dev chart on digitaltruth.com, which is better than the recommended
development times.

regards,
Signature

Gianni Rondinini (30, tanti, RA)
Nikon user - Bmw driver
http://bugbarbeq.deviantart.com

Lew - 23 Feb 2006 17:53 GMT
Should we bother to point out that stage lighting is often enough for normal
exposure/development without the push? The reason behind pushing is often
based on erroneous light meter readings.
-Lew
UC - 23 Feb 2006 18:04 GMT
Yes, we should.

I have photographed a number of concerts in the distant past (Yes,
Simon & Garfunkel, Sly & Family Stone, Joan Baez, etc,) and I did push
initially. But that was long ago. Eventually, though, I realized that
no matter what you do, you're not usually going to get strong shadow
detail from a spotlight. Basing the exposure on the bright side
required no pushing after all. Just meter the face and open up about
one stop or a little more (light caucasian skin like Joan Baez), if you
have a selective light meter (as in the Leicaflex) or a spot meter. A
meter reading that includes dead black background will of course call
for far more exposure than is necessary.

> Should we bother to point out that stage lighting is often enough for normal
> exposure/development without the push? The reason behind pushing is often
> based on erroneous light meter readings.
> -Lew
paul.mead@usenet.bigfoot.com - 08 Mar 2006 20:45 GMT
>Yes, we should.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>> based on erroneous light meter readings.
>> -Lew

Lew & UC - I have seen this asserted a number of times but wonder
whether the sorts of gigs I'm photographing are darker than yours! I
suspect that the lighting at a Simon & Garfunkel concert is brighter
than a local rock band playing at the town hall. Or is that just my
metering technique?

I don't have a spot meter, but even centre weighted metering focussed
pretty close up on a lit face gives extremely slow speeds wide open
even when rating at EI1600.

What do you think?
Paul
UC - 08 Mar 2006 21:21 GMT
The shows I shot used high-intensity spots on performers. Local bars
may not be nearly as bright.

Sometimes, there is simply not enough ambient light to take good
photographs. There is no solution but flash. Pushing is not going to do
what you need. The contrast is already too high.

> >Yes, we should.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> What do you think?
> Paul
Paul Mead - 09 Mar 2006 19:25 GMT
>The shows I shot used high-intensity spots on performers. Local bars
>may not be nearly as bright.
>
>Sometimes, there is simply not enough ambient light to take good
>photographs. There is no solution but flash. Pushing is not going to do
>what you need. The contrast is already too high.
When you say that, what exactly do you mean? Sorry for my ignorance,
but this has always been something I've struggled with.
Claudio Bonavolta - 09 Mar 2006 20:31 GMT
Paul Mead a écrit :

>>The shows I shot used high-intensity spots on performers. Local bars
>>may not be nearly as bright.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> When you say that, what exactly do you mean? Sorry for my ignorance,
> but this has always been something I've struggled with.

Pushing a film, i.e. increasing the development time, does increase its
contrast. By increasing the contrast the mid grey and, specially,
highlights zones will be more dense giving the impression of a film
speed increase but the low neg density areas, the shadows, don't see
their density increase that much.
More than this, it's pretty common to have highly contrasty scenes under
available light, pushing a film will increase this effect and the negs
may be very difficult to print.

So, pushing is not that magical tool many beginners believe ...

Claudio Bonavolta
http://www.bonavolta.ch
Nicholas O. Lindan - 09 Mar 2006 23:02 GMT
> So, pushing is not that magical tool many beginners believe ...

In summary, pushing works very well if you are taking pictures in the fog.

Speaking of which, 'flashing', or slightly fogging the film before or
after exposure, can increase shadow density/decrease contrast.

Has anyone tried pushing flashed film?

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

UC - 09 Mar 2006 21:38 GMT
> >The shows I shot used high-intensity spots on performers. Local bars
> >may not be nearly as bright.
> >
> >Sometimes, there is simply not enough ambient light to take good
> >photographs. There is no solution but flash. Pushing is not going to do
> >what you need. The contrast is already too high.

> When you say that, what exactly do you mean? Sorry for my ignorance,
> but this has always been something I've struggled with.

Back in the late 1960s and early 70s, I was doing photography for my
college yearbook, The Makio (Ohio State). Many big acts (Yes, Joan
Baez, Simon/Garfunkel, Sly/Stone, etc.) came to St. John Arena. I got
to shoot many of these acts. High-intensity spot-lights were installed
or brought in. These lights are almost point sources, and give very
high contrast. This means, that the lighted side was bathed in intense
light, but the shadow side was very dark. You could NOT get shadow
detail on the dark side unless there were multiple sources. As a
result, you had to expose for the bright side and forget about the dark
side. The illumination level was adequate for that.

I imagine that bars have much less intense light than commercial
spot-lights, but unless the lighting is even or uses a lot of sources,
the light will still be harsh. Pushing is nothing more than a way of
increasing the contrast of underexposed negatives by extending
development. It can be effective if the scene is low in contrast, but
high-contrast scenes are hopeless. Pushing will simply make the
situation worse. If there's not enough light to stop the thrashing
guitar players, there's nothing you can do. Forget about taking photos.
Sit and listen.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 08 Mar 2006 21:48 GMT
> lighting at ... a local rock band playing at the town hall.
>
> I don't have a spot meter, but even centre weighted metering focussed
> pretty close up on a lit face gives extremely slow speeds wide open
> even when rating at EI1600.

For spot lights you need a spot meter.  All stage lighting is
directional and very unnatural: see how different everything
looks when the house lights & work lights go on.

Go to a gig and waste a dozen rolls of film taking pictures
at various exposures and developing the rolls for various times.
You don't need good film for this experiment, something cheap
like Academy/Edu/Eastern Surprise will show what is happening and
the results will be translatable to real films like Tri-X.  Or
you may find Mockbaбром to be the best stuff for concerts...

Take 5 rolls: each roll take pics at -2, -1, 0, +1, +2 of your meter
reading and with WA/Normal/Tele lenses of subjects center and side
stage.

Develop the rolls for -30, -15, 0, +15, +30% of the normal time.

You will now be the newsgroup's expert on the best exposure and
developing techniques for stage photography.

My experience has been that the results are too contrasty unless
the exposure is pulled: expose the film at a _lower_ ASA setting
on the meter and develop for _less_ time.

Expect to be shooting in the neighborhood of 1/15th at f2.0.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm
Paul Mead - 09 Mar 2006 01:24 GMT
>My experience has been that the results are too contrasty unless
>the exposure is pulled: expose the film at a _lower_ ASA setting
>on the meter and develop for _less_ time.

Thanks for your suggestions, Nicholas. I think I'm going to have to
think about this particular comment, since at immediate reading it
seems counter intuitive - if you 'expose for shadows and develop for
highlights', then a lower ASA would give a boost to the shadow values.
Less development would reduce highlight detail. Together this would
seem to me to be the opposite of what I'm trying to achieve.

Of course, I am always willing to be wrong - it wouldn't be the first
time!

Anyway, 'tis late. Going to bed.

Cheers all
Nicholas O. Lindan - 09 Mar 2006 14:26 GMT
> [stage lighting] if you 'expose for shadows and develop for
> highlights', then a lower ASA would give a boost to the shadow values.
> Less development would reduce highlight detail. Together this would
> seem to me to be the opposite of what I'm trying to achieve.

Hmmm, what effect are you trying to achieve?

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

Paul Mead - 09 Mar 2006 18:27 GMT
>> [stage lighting] if you 'expose for shadows and develop for
>> highlights', then a lower ASA would give a boost to the shadow values.
>> Less development would reduce highlight detail. Together this would
>> seem to me to be the opposite of what I'm trying to achieve.
>
>Hmmm, what effect are you trying to achieve?

Weeell, I'm most interested in the people in the band and getting as
much detail / definition in faces with clothing less important
(although useful) and background as lowest priority I suppose.
Expanses of black are fine if they are background since that's not of
much interest to someone viewing a band picture.

Am I right in saying that your suggestion would reduce the range of
luminances in an inherently contrasty situation (I've never been
comfortable with which way round 'high' and 'low' contrast go!)? I can
see that this would make a technically better picture (and make it
easier to print) but if that means i can't get a fast enough shutter
speed to handhold, then I get no picture at all.

Last night's gig was terrible, BTW! More light in my front room.
Resorted to flash in the end.
bjw@mambo.ucolick.org - 10 Mar 2006 00:29 GMT
> On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:26:11 GMT, "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com>

> >Hmmm, what effect are you trying to achieve?
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> easier to print) but if that means i can't get a fast enough shutter
> speed to handhold, then I get no picture at all.

It all depends what you want.  The technically correct way to
deal with a high contrast situation is to underdevelop (pull)
rather than overdevelop (push).  But this may not be the visually
correct way.  As you suggest, letting the background go to black
is allowable.  In fact it may be an asset to focus attention on the
subject.

If you look at the photographs of musicians by William Claxton
or Francis Wolff (Wolff did many of the Blue Note record covers)
there are huge expanses of black, and not only in the background.
This was probably necessary for the record covers, but it works
in the photographs without the album printing as well.  For example

<http://www.mosaicrecords.com/francis_wolff.asp>

Not only is the background pure black, but the large shadow areas
under Coltrane's chin and the back of his arm have gone to black.
Technically, this is a no-no.  Aesthetically it's solid gold.
Photographs like this convey the romantic impression of seeing the
performer under a spotlight in a dark nightclub - in actuality, even
in a dark nightclub your eyes are usually good enough to see the
background where the camera can't.  Here, the photograph improves
on the image you would really see, in order to more strongly give
the impression of being there.  Representation of reality is a
funny business.
Mike King - 09 Mar 2006 16:40 GMT
Your meter is calibrated for something like medium gray, meter a face close
up and then overexpose or prolong development to raise that midtone one step
and you're bang on.

Signature

darkroommike

>
> >My experience has been that the results are too contrasty unless
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Cheers all
Keith Tapscott - 09 Mar 2006 13:11 GMT
> I don't have a spot meter, but even centre weighted metering focussed
> pretty close up on a lit face gives extremely slow speeds wide open
> even when rating at EI1600.
>
> What do you think?
> Paul

You may be better off using a film which is faster than ISO 400 such as Fuji
Neopan 1600, Kodak T-MAX P-3200 TMZ or Ilford 3200 Delta, rather than push
processing an ISO 400 film.
cgrady - 23 Feb 2006 18:13 GMT
Hi,
I ran a custom B&W darkroom for 11 years and did a lot of push
processing.  I tried several methods to reduce "grain" in negatives.  I
had to push a roll of Tri-X to 3200 and was really worried about grain.
I realized that agitation was the key to holding grain down.  The
emulsion is like grease when wet and silver halide salts will clump up
creating grain.

I poured in the developer and rapped the tank once to remove air
bubbles.  Then every minutes I would rotate the tank once 180 degrees.
Because I am only worried about developing the surface of one side of
the film all I had to do was change the developer within one or two
molecules of the emulsion that would be sufficient agitation.  I am not
claiming this as the ultimate cure.  But it worked for me.
Mike King - 25 Feb 2006 15:11 GMT
Not trying to start anything (how many wars have been started with those
same words he wondered) but in my opinion grain is caused mostly by the
design of the film, in other words if Tri-X is a grainy film by design it
will be grainy no matter what developer or agitation scheme is used.  Tri-X
is moderately grainy but I like the tonality and can live with that, if you
need more speed, used Delta 3200 or TMax 3200, if you need more grain use a
grainier film if you want ISO 400 and less grain use TMax or Delta 400.

Having said that, the developer you use and the amount of development
(gamma, C.I., whatever) will affect to a smaller degree the perception of
grain in the film.  It also can boost midtone values and give you a more
printable image under certain low light situations.  It may not truly be
pushing as defined somewhere but it works for me.

Clumping, at least as you defined it, may be an urban darkroom legend.  I
cannot conceive of silver grains moving through an emulsion yet the emulsion
be solid enough to keep from sliding off the film base.  There is a
phenomena called reticulation, where emulsion slides, cracks, etc. but it is
different and separate from clumping.  Less agitation equals less
development and will again affect your perception of graininess (see number
two).  Actual clumps of silver grains are present but are put there during
manufacturer.  Larger silver "targets" equals faster film speed.

Signature

darkroommike

> Hi,
> I ran a custom B&W darkroom for 11 years and did a lot of push
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> molecules of the emulsion that would be sufficient agitation.  I am not
> claiming this as the ultimate cure.  But it worked for me.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 25 Feb 2006 15:51 GMT
> Clumping, at least as you defined it [who, what, when, where, why?, ed.],
> may be an urban darkroom legend.

'Clumping' as I understand it:

o Grains develop from a 'site': a small area on the crystal of
  silver halide where a few molecules of silver halide have had
  their electrons knocked around by the action of photons.

o The developer acts on the site and a filament of silver grows
  out from the crystal.  The filament either clumps up like a ball
  of steel wool and/or grows out into the gelatin.  The filament/
  ball is called a 'grain'.

o If halide crystals are close then the filament can touch a
  neighboring crystal and start a new site for the developer to act.

o A group of close-by crystals can thereby develop a 'clump' of  grain.
  Most grains are small balls of fuzz, a clump is a large ball of fuzz.

The relationship between variations in processing temperature (developer
at 68F, stop at 75F, fix at 65...) and increased grain due to increased
clumping is mostly anecdotal.  I believe I have experienced it in Tri-X
but I haven't seen it in a while, probably because I shoot TMax100 and
TechPan and keep chemical temperatures within 1F of each other.

If the effect is due to micro-motion of silver in gelatin causing
silver filaments to scrape nearby crystals and start new developing
sites then a rapid change in developing temperature in the middle of
developing should show the most effect.  If clumping is due to macro-motion
then changes in temperature of re-wetted developed film should show clumping.

Anybody have research grant money available?

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 23 Feb 2006 18:42 GMT
> i photographed a concert and i exposed [Tri-X] to1600Iso,

When taking a picture of an indoor concert or play you
want to pull the film, not push it.

Remember: "Expose for the shadows and develop for
the highlights."  The shadows in a performance are very dim and
require a lot of exposure: either meter them with a spot meter
or take an average metering and open up 1-2 stops by using Tri-X
at ASA 100-200.  Decrease development by 25-35% to compensate for
brightly lit highlights such as the performer's heads.

Unfortunately, you have already underexposed the film by ~4 stops
and holding any shadow detail is going to be hard to do.

Try using a heavily compensating developer such as D-23 [you have
to make this yourself from Metol and Sulfite] and/or use a water-bath
technique.  Other approaches are to use a very dilute developer with
very little agitation or to use a divided developer.  Google for
'compensating developer' and 'water bath development'.

A good set of articles on dealing with high lighting ratios is available
at:

http://www.codemastersworkshop.com/frontdoor/cont_pt1.htm

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

Richard Knoppow - 23 Feb 2006 21:01 GMT
> Hello,
> i photographed a concert and i exposed my film to1600Iso,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> http://www.mariocaroni.it

  This is two stops which is about the limit for pushing.
First, use a developer which delivers the maximum film
speed. Kodak T-Max, T-Max RS, or Xtol, Ilford Microphen or
DDX are all Phenidone based developers which give you nearly
a stop more speed than D-76.
  Secondly, increase development time by about 33%, that
will gain another stop. Agitation should be normal. If the
pictures are important I would shoot a test roll and process
it. For 2 stop push a 50% increase in development time is
usualy prescribed but the conrast goes up with development
time so you may get difficult to print images.
  Film has lower contrast in the lower exposure areas. The
idea of push processing is to increase the contrast of these
areas to make the image easier to print. However, the
contrast of the normally exposed part of the image will also
be increased resulting in high contrast for bright objects
in the image. In practical terms it means you will probably
have to do some burning in in printing.
  Of course you will also have increased grain but Tri-X
seems to push pretty well and a lot of people like the
slightly "gritty" look it has when pushed.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

PATRICK GAINER - 01 Mar 2006 21:12 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
>  

When I was playing for the Norfolk Symphony Orchestra, I took many
photographs during rehearsals and my wife took pictures at concerts.
Needless to say, no flash allowed. An average reading of such scenes
often causes overexposure. I set my meter at 1600 for Tri-X and read the
shadows. If you think of the zone system, zone 3 would be 2 stops down
from the desired middle scene brightness. No overdevelopment was
required. Guest artists and fellow orchestra members as well as the
conductor complemented me on my photos.

If the average scene brightness is fairly dark, you will not have to
push at all.
D&M - 24 Feb 2006 19:53 GMT
Hello,
thanks to all for the answers.  I believe that it is not the better thing,
to make a push processing for the quality of the image and it is also true
that I did not have informs to you to you on the light of the concert:
Jazz club to 5 meters of distance;  lighting system spot;  measurement of
the light on the face of the musicians;  f 2,8-4 1/45-1/20s.
I have made two rolls and the first one I have developed it with hc110B 20°C
17min.  Agitation standard.
Hour we see turns out to you.
Mario.

http://www.mariocaroni.it

> Hello,
> i photographed a concert and i exposed my film to1600Iso,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> http://www.mariocaroni.it
 
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