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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2006

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DiXactol Tests

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Lew - 22 Feb 2006 00:02 GMT
   I'm testing a number of film/developer combinations.  It seems that
DiXactol does not produce the densities promised at recommended ie's and
dilutions. Can anyone else confirm or comment on this?
-Lew
UC - 22 Feb 2006 00:55 GMT
Yeah, let's use Joe's developer.

> I'm testing a number of film/developer combinations.  It seems that
> DiXactol does not produce the densities promised at recommended ie's and
> dilutions. Can anyone else confirm or comment on this?
> -Lew
Craig Schroeder - 22 Feb 2006 03:55 GMT
There's more there than it initially appears.  Have you printed the
negatives yet?  I don't use it currently but recall needing 1/2 to 2/3
stop more than box speed to get easy printing stuff.  It does work
well when you get it tuned in.  Are you using distilled water?

>    I'm testing a number of film/developer combinations.  It seems that
>DiXactol does not produce the densities promised at recommended ie's and
>dilutions. Can anyone else confirm or comment on this?
>-Lew


Craig Schroeder
craig nospam craigschroeder com
Lew - 22 Feb 2006 04:13 GMT
   I'm judging densities from contact sheets made on the same vc paper I
use for printing. I use a diffusing head on my enlarger so the contacts
densities should be dead on for what I'll get from prints. I'd rather not
live with the speed loss since I do a lot of available light work. Forgot to
mention that I accidently used delta 400 for the DiXactol whereas my other
tests were with HP5+. Brooklyn water is fine for a bunch of other
developers, so it'll have to do here.
   Did you ever experiment with increased concentrations?
-Lew
> There's more there than it initially appears.  Have you printed the
> negatives yet?  I don't use it currently but recall needing 1/2 to 2/3
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Craig Schroeder
> craig nospam craigschroeder com
UC - 22 Feb 2006 14:55 GMT
Is that a staining developer?

If so, stain density will not be seen by VC papers.

Staining developers do not work with VC papers the same way that
standard developers do. The stain is opaque to blue but transparent to
green light. I think you're going to find that combo unsatisfactory.

> I'm testing a number of film/developer combinations.  It seems that
> DiXactol does not produce the densities promised at recommended ie's and
> dilutions. Can anyone else confirm or comment on this?
> -Lew
ujazz32@hotmail.com - 22 Feb 2006 20:10 GMT
> Is that a staining developer?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> standard developers do. The stain is opaque to blue but transparent to
> green light. I think you're going to find that combo unsatisfactory.

The above is mostly misinformed and oversimplified, but partly just
dead wrong. Stain density most certainly is seen by VC papers. One can
prove it by bleaching all of the silver from a stained negative with a
ferricyanide bleach, and then printing the remaining stain image on VC
paper. Staining developers do not work the same way with any papers as
non-staining developers do. The vast majority of the stain produced by
any staining developer is seen as neutral density by VC printing
papers, and acts exactly like silver density, except for the lack of
grain in the stain density. Please keep in mind that UC has never used
or tested a staining developer, and has no practical experience
whatsoever in this area.

Dixactol is a catechol/glycin developer, and as such, I would expect it
to be rather slow working, and produce an upswept curve, and a speed
loss with most films. Dixactol Ultra partially addresses these issues
by adding phenidone, which should increase toe speed and general
activity, but probably won't alter the upswept curve shape that is a
signature of glycin developers. If you're interested in making up a
home-brewed version of Dixactol Ultra, I suggest the following:

A

distilled water @ 125F  75ml

Sodium sulfite 3g

glycin 2g

catechol 10g

phenidone .2g

sodium metabisulfite 5g

distilled water to 100ml

B

cold, distilled water 75ml

sodium hydroxide 10g

cold, distilled water to 100ml

Dilute 1A:1B:100 water, and develop for 6min/70F

Jay
UC - 22 Feb 2006 20:46 GMT
> > Is that a staining developer?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The above is mostly misinformed and oversimplified, but partly just
> dead wrong. Stain density most certainly is seen by VC papers.

No, it isn't. One can refer to Thorton's book Edge of Darkness, on
pages 96-97, where he shows the difference in highlight density seen by
VC papers. The flat print produced on the VC paper (page 97) is
produced because the stain is not 'seen' by the green-sensitive
component of the paper. That's exactly what Thornton says... I know
what I am talking about, dumbass.

> prove it by bleaching all of the silver from a stained negative with a
> ferricyanide bleach, and then printing the remaining stain image on VC
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> Jay
ujazz32@hotmail.com - 22 Feb 2006 23:19 GMT
UC,

if you'd ever used a staining developer, you'd know how very wrong you
are when you say that VC paper don't see stain density. I now exactly
how staining developers print on VC papers, and why, but I don't care
to waste my time educating you. If you want to discuss staining
developers with me, you'll have to do a lot more reading, and maybe
even a few actual experiments, like the one I suggested in my last
post. Your juvenile insults are wasted on me.

Lew,

call it what you like, but before you make some up, I should point out
some typos in the formula. The sodium sulfite should read .3g, and the
sodium metabisulfite .5g. I don't know if it's close to any published
formula, but if it is, I don't know the formula. If you decide to make
it up, keep in mind that it will take a lot of stirring to get the
glycin into solution, and it helps to keep the solution hot until all
of the glycin is dissolved. The phenidone is a little stubborn, too,
but not like the glycin. Good luck.

Jay
UC - 23 Feb 2006 00:20 GMT
VC paper has three components.

Part is sensitive to UV and blue, part is sensitive to UV, blue, and
slightly to green, and part is sensitive to UV, blue, and strongly to
green.

Since all three compomnents are sensitive to blue, exposure to blue
light gives the greatest contrast, as the density adds logarithmically.
Exposure to green light gives the least contrast, because only one
component is reacting. This is extremely simple, and I have no idea why
you don't get it.

Since the stain passes green but stops blue, only one part of the
emulsion reacts, and rather weakly, to the stained area. In essence, it
does not 'see' the stain as significant density. The paper therefore
gives a darker. stronger reaction than it would if the stain were
silver, or if the paper were insensitive to green.

Thornton, who formulated DiXactol, explains it on pages 96-99 of his
book.

> UC,
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Jay
UC - 23 Feb 2006 01:00 GMT
I found an error in what I wrote. Corrected text:

VC paper has three components.

Part is sensitive to UV and blue, part is sensitive to UV, blue, and
slightly to green, and part is sensitive to UV, blue, and strongly to
green.

Since all three compomnents are sensitive to blue, exposure to blue
light gives the greatest contrast, as the density adds logarithmically.
Exposure to green light gives the least contrast, because only one
component is reacting. This is extremely simple, and I have no idea why
you don't get it.

In essence, VC paper does not 'see' the stain as significant density.
The paper therefore
gives a darker, stronger reaction than it would if the stain were
silver, or if the paper were insensitive to green.

"...(remember, the yellow part of the stain's spectrum doesn't provide
any printing density with VC papers)." Barry Thornton, page 98.

So, you're contradicting the man who formulated DiXactol!

Dumbass!

Thornton, who formulated DiXactol, explains it on pages 96-99 of his
book.

> UC,
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Jay
ujazz32@hotmail.com - 23 Feb 2006 01:49 GMT
UC,

I'm glad I inspired you to do some homework, but you still don't get
it, but since you've never had any experience with staining developers,
I can understand how this is all academic to you, and easily confused.
At least you've backpeddled from your original statement:

"stain density will not be seen by VC papers"

which is patently false, and gone back to your books to find Thornton
specifically refers to a spectrum of stain color, most of which is seen
as neutral density by VC papers. You're in way over your head her, UC.
Thornton is not the only person who has formulated a staining
developer, and all your childish insults will not close the gap in our
respective understandings of this issue, regardless of the number of
exclamation points you include. You're really embarrasing yourself
here, but what's new?

Jay
UC - 23 Feb 2006 01:56 GMT
The problem is you don't understand how VC paper works.

Read and LEARN!

http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/pdf/Cont.pdf

In particular:

"MULTIGRADE papers are coated with an emulsion
which is a mixture of three separate emulsions.
Each emulsion is a basic blue sensitive emulsion to
which is added different amounts of green
sensitising dye. Thus, part of the mixed emulsion is
sensitive mainly to blue light, part to blue light
with some sensitivity to green light and part to
both blue and green light.

All parts of the emulsion have the same contrast.
They also all have the same speed to blue light,
but naturally, the part of the emulsion with only a
small amount of green sensitising dye has a low
speed (that is, is less sensitive) to green light.

When the paper is exposed to blue light, all parts
of the emulsion react and contribute equally to the
final image. This image is of high contrast because
of the additive effect produced by three emulsions
with the same speed and contrast. The resultant
curve has a narrow exposure range and is thus of
high contrast."

ujaz...@hotmail.com wrote:
> UC,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Jay
ujazz32@hotmail.com - 23 Feb 2006 06:44 GMT
> The problem is you don't understand how VC paper works.
>
> Read and LEARN!

UC,

I know exactly how VC papers work, the problem is that between the two
of us, I'm the only one who knows how staining developers work. Keep
reading, and maybe it will start to make sense.

Jay
UC - 23 Feb 2006 13:58 GMT
> > The problem is you don't understand how VC paper works.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Jay

"stain density will not be seen by VC papers"

Thornton
ujazz32@hotmail.com - 23 Feb 2006 20:05 GMT
Taken out of context, Thornton's quote is very misleading. Stain
density most definitely will be "seen" by VC papers, and it can be
proven irrefuteably by the test I suggested in my first post.  How
stain is "seen" by VC papers is another question, and one far too
complex for you to consider at this point in your education. Keep
reading.

Jay
UC - 23 Feb 2006 20:18 GMT
No, it's NOT misleading. Read the BOOK!

You're a damned liar!

> Taken out of context, Thornton's quote is very misleading. Stain
> density most definitely will be "seen" by VC papers, and it can be
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Jay
UC - 23 Feb 2006 20:46 GMT
> Taken out of context, Thornton's quote is very misleading. Stain
> density most definitely will be "seen" by VC papers, and it can be
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Jay

remember, the yellow part of the stain's spectrum doesn't provide
any printing density with VC papers)." Barry Thornton, page 98.
ujazz32@hotmail.com - 23 Feb 2006 21:57 GMT
UC,

maybe you don't understand the definition of the term "spectrum". Most
of the stain acts exactly like neutral density with VC papers. Try it,
you'll see. I have read the book, by the way, but better still, I
actually formulate and use staining developers, and print on VC papers,
among others. You're wasting your time trying to convince me of
something I know for a fact, through actual experience, to be false. I
suggest you supplement your reading with some color theory. It's all in
there if you know how to apply it. If you read enough, you might also
begin to understand why tanning/staining developers offer benefits
unobtainable from non-staining developers. Let me know if you have any
questions.

Jay
UC - 23 Feb 2006 22:05 GMT
Sure, such as "grain like Rodinal on steroids...."

Spare me your patronizing.

> UC,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Jay
Michael Gudzinowicz - 23 Feb 2006 23:22 GMT
Homework problems:

1) Expose sheets or frames to zones 0, 2, 5 and 8.  Develop, stop and fix in a
staining developer.
Remove the silver image with ferricyanide/hypo bleach, rinse, soak in 1% Kodalk
or carbonate to
restore color, wash and dry. Expose a step wedge to VC paper using the
frames/sheets as VC filters
and compare to an unfiltered print.

What is the effect of different stain levels on the print contrast of the step
tablet?

2) Photograph a transilluminated step tablet, process and bleach as above to
obtain a stain image.
Print the stain image using a.) blue or 5+ VC filtration b.) yellow or -1
filtration c.) no filtration.

What happened and why?
UC - 24 Feb 2006 01:33 GMT
I don't use the zoan cistern and don't care to discuss it.

> Homework problems:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> What happened and why?
PATRICK GAINER - 24 Feb 2006 20:34 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>  

Not only are you wrong, but Thornton was wrong as well. I tested this
very thing some time ago in an article for Darkroom and Creative Camera
Techniques. I bleached the silver out of a PMK developed negative and
printed it with VC paper, which one can limit to blue sensitivity quite
easily with filtration. Furthermore, the magenta filtration makes a
greater difference on a PMK negative than it would on an unstained
negative that gives the same print without filtration. Also, it is a
theoretical as well as experimental fact that the yellowish stain of a
PMK negative does not reduce the printing contrast on VC paper as common
myth has it. Certainly, the same stained negative gives higher contrast
on graded paper, but try the following experiment: develop a negative in
a non-staining developer. Print it on both VC and graded paper to get as
nearly as possible the same contrast. Now bleach the silver image with a
rehalogenating bleach such as is used for sepia toning and redevelop it
to completion in a pyro developer. The pyro stain is added to the
original silver image and INCREASES contrast on the VC paper, though not
as much as on the graded paper. Quit arguing from theory over something
you can demonstrate by experiment. Also, the argument from authority is
not as strong as the proof from experiment. I learned that a long time
ago by comparison of aerodynamic theory with experimental fact.
UC - 24 Feb 2006 20:51 GMT
> Not only are you wrong, but Thornton was wrong as well.

Wrong? The photos are on pages 96 and 97. See for yourself!

> I tested this
> very thing some time ago in an article for Darkroom and Creative Camera
> Techniques. I bleached the silver out of a PMK developed negative and
> printed it with VC paper, which one can limit to blue sensitivity quite
> easily with filtration.

That makes it like a graded paper, grade 4 or 5! At NORMAL grades
(2-3), there is considerable green passed!

> Furthermore, the magenta filtration makes a
> greater difference on a PMK negative than it would on an unstained
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> not as strong as the proof from experiment. I learned that a long time
> ago by comparison of aerodynamic theory with experimental fact.

The prints are in the book. It's as plain as day.

> --------------090200010106090904020505
> Content-Type: text/html
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>
> --------------090200010106090904020505--
Michael Gudzinowicz - 24 Feb 2006 21:39 GMT
Barry Thornton once wrote:

"The colour produced by DiXactol is much more consistent across
film types, and gives predictable tonal distribution on graded
and variable contrast papers. The effect of the stain differs,
however, when printing on these different types of paper. On
graded paper the stain acts purely as extra printing density thus
making the negative more contrasty than visual inspection might
suggest. On VC papers the stain also acts to soften contrast
slightly. The colour produced by DiXactol is much more consistent across
film types, and gives predictable tonal distribution on graded
and variable contrast papers. The effect of the stain differs,
however, when printing on these different types of paper. On
graded paper the stain acts purely as extra printing density thus
making the negative more contrasty than visual inspection might
suggest. On VC papers the stain also acts to soften contrast
slightly."

Note that Barry explicitly stated that stain prints on both graded
and VC papers, however on VC papers, there seemed to be a slight
contrast decrease compared to graded paper. Also note, that he
was comparing apples to oranges - two different papers - so
"slight" may be next to nothing.

At times Barry exhibited a bit of bias towards his way of doing
things, but he wasn't a fool or charlatan. It's unfortunate that
his work has been misrepresented to his detriment by a troll.
UC - 24 Feb 2006 21:48 GMT
The stain is INVISIBLE in a large portion of the green wavelengths,
because it PASSES GREEN. Since only a SMALL portion of the components
of the paper react to green light, the effect is MINIMAL, almost
non-existent. That means it's as though it wasn't there!

This SIMPLE, ELEMENTARY PHYSICS! Why you pyro worshipers don;t get it
is because you are f.cking retarded!

> Barry Thornton once wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> things, but he wasn't a fool or charlatan. It's unfortunate that
> his work has been misrepresented to his detriment by a troll.
Michael Gudzinowicz - 24 Feb 2006 23:14 GMT
> The stain is INVISIBLE in a large portion of the green wavelengths,
> because it PASSES GREEN. Since only a SMALL portion of the components
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> This SIMPLE, ELEMENTARY PHYSICS! Why you pyro worshipers don;t get it
> is because you are f.cking retarded!

What you just said was that a small portion of VC paper components react to
green, which implies that the majority of the components react to blue.
Blue (high contrast) is blocked by yellow stain density and therefore the stain
prints, even with no filtration.

That is exactly what was said in my posts that you dismissed because they
mentioned the zone system. Your rejection of the stain density printing on VC
has been uncategorical throughout this thread, it is still flawed, so learn how
to read with comprehension and how to write. Also twenty or thirty graduate
chemistry and physics courses might help.

Good luck with the publisher's peer review on your virtual book. I know it's a
chore. I had written eleven books on chemistry - all published by Marcel Dekker
- while I was in grad school as a diversion from my research.

I decline your recent suggestion that I review your virtual book. After all, you
wouldn't want anyone you considered to be your inferior to offer suggestions.

Try to get it right the first time rather than jumping around changing your
position to conform to reality.

>>Barry Thornton once wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>>things, but he wasn't a fool or charlatan. It's unfortunate that
>>his work has been misrepresented to his detriment by a troll.
UC - 24 Feb 2006 23:48 GMT
> > The stain is INVISIBLE in a large portion of the green wavelengths,
> > because it PASSES GREEN. Since only a SMALL portion of the components
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> What you just said was that a small portion of VC paper components react to
> green, which implies that the majority of the components react to blue.

Read Ilford's description of how VC papers work. I posted it earlier.

> Blue (high contrast) is blocked by yellow stain density and therefore the stain
> prints, even with no filtration.

It passes green light. VC paper reacts to green light, graded does not.
That's why there's a difference in the way stained negatives print on
graded vs VC paper. You STILL don't understand, dammit! The light bulb
emits UV, and blue, green, yellow, and red light. The silver blocks
virtually ALL of this radiation, without favoring any part of the
spectrum. both VC paper and graded paper will provide similar prints
from all-silver negatives, provided the color of the light is adjusted
so that they can match.

In a yellowish-stained negative, the highlight areas have additional
density in blue light only. That is, the stain effectively blocks blue
light. Materials sensitive to bue light only will see this stain as
density. For such materials, the stain + silver density represents the
printing density, which is greater than the silver printing denisty
alone. But this means that to get the same contrast on graded papers
(blue-sensitive only) as you would with a non-staining developer, you
in effect have to 'underdevelop' the silver-only part. The printing
density of the silver alone would be insufficient without the stain.

When we use VC paper, however, we can get the use of only the silver
density. The contrast of the print on VC paper is lower, then, because
the VC paper is sensitive to green light, which the stain does not
block to any significant extent, and the silver-density part of the
negative is underdeveloped compared to a negative deevloped in a
non-staining developer. Instead of ADDING to the density of the
highlights, the stain might as well not even be there. This has nothing
to do, really, with the contrast-control function of the color filters.
It has ONLY to do with EFFECTIVE PRINTING DENSITY.

All this assumes we are using grades around 2 or 3 on graded paper, or
filters around 2 or 3 on the VC paper. If we place a high-contrast
(green-absorbing magenta) filter (filter 5 or so) in the light path,
the density of the stain will come somewhat into play, and will reveal
some printing density. The trrouble is that the gradient in the lower
tones and the highlights may not match, leading to problems in
printing. It will NEVER match the contrast of a grade 2 or 3 overall.

NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND??????????????????????

> That is exactly what was said in my posts that you dismissed because they
> mentioned the zone system. Your rejection of the stain density printing on VC
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> >>things, but he wasn't a fool or charlatan. It's unfortunate that
> >>his work has been misrepresented to his detriment by a troll.
UC - 24 Feb 2006 21:59 GMT
Barry was wrong about one point:

The print is not softer because of the stain. It's softer because the
stain is subtracted from the printig density on VC paper, and what's
left is shorter-scaled than the paper needs to make a full-scale print.
In other words, the silver alone is what prints on the VC paper, and
that is too soft to make the same contrast of print that it would make
on a graded paper.

> Barry Thornton once wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> things, but he wasn't a fool or charlatan. It's unfortunate that
> his work has been misrepresented to his detriment by a troll.
Lew - 24 Feb 2006 22:24 GMT
I hope you used a surrogate of some sort for those experiments, Patrick.
-Lew
> I learned that a long time ago by comparison of aerodynamic theory with
> experimental fact.
Richard Knoppow - 28 Feb 2006 04:01 GMT
>>>>The problem is you don't understand how VC paper works.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> ago by comparison of aerodynamic theory with experimental
> fact.

I think the experiment described by Micheal Gudzinowicz
earlier in this thread would give the answer. He suggests
making a negative from a step wedge and bleaching out the
silver image. That would leave a stepwise stain image. This
wedge is used as a filter in the folowing step. Which is to
make a series of test prints using a standard step wedge as
the negative with one print being made for each step of the
filter wedge. That would be a lot of steps and I think only
three or four would suffice to show if the stain causes any
effect on the print contrast. The reason for making separate
exposures rather than using the entire filter wedge is to
that exposures can be matched, if necessary.
  The issue here is whether the stain image affects the
emulsion components of variable contrast paper in a way that
changes the overall shape of the curve. While the effective
contrast of a negative with stain iamge may vary with the
spectral sensitivity of the graded paper it will not change
the effective curve shape because there in only one
component. It might for VC paper. The effect, if it exists,
would be to create the effect of a shoulder on the negative,
or a long ton on the printing paper. The visible effect
would be to lower highlight contrast, i.e., it would have
the effect of a highlight contrast mask.
  I do not use staining developers and have not conducted
this experiment.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 28 Feb 2006 04:39 GMT
> A whole bunch of folks wrote:
> > A whole bunch of stuff
> I think the experiment described by Michael Gudzinowicz
> earlier in this thread would give the answer.

I second Richard's suggestion.  

I would volunteer, but unfortunately I poured my pyro down
the plug-hole, never got around to trying the stuff [it's not
schadenfreude but it's close: "Gee, I'd so much like to help
sell raffle tickets but I promised NASA I would help them
plan the Mars expedition next Thursday..."

Really nice highlights are hard to get.  The best I have
made are with Plus-X sheet film [no longer available, but
guess who has a freezer full] in D-76.  It sounds like the
same claim is made for Pyro, which is why I had a few bottles
of A and B hanging around till a few months ago.

A simpler experiment would be to use a uniformly stained
bleached pyro negative as a VC filter and see how much
affect it has.

This is one of those things that can be put to rest.  But
it may hang around like vacuum tube audio and giant rats
in the sewers.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

UC - 28 Feb 2006 14:15 GMT
The simple fact is that pyro negatives will print with lower contrast
on VC paper.

The possible remedies are using different VC filters, but there is no
guarantee that the prints will resemble graded-paper prints.

> > A whole bunch of folks wrote:
> > > A whole bunch of stuff
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
> Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm
Lew - 28 Feb 2006 14:19 GMT
I can undertake Michael's first homework assignment as soon as I can get my
hands on some bleach. I'd like to understand the mechanisms whereby the
bleach will remove the stain and Kodalk or carbonate will restore it without
changing the color of the stain first. For the second question, I don't see
how I'd be able to photograph the wedge close enough to fill a frame, but it
seems to me that contact printing the strip of negatives created for the
first question would test the same thing. A third experiment would be to
print a negative containing a good range of highlights produced with a
non-staining developer (D76) in register with each of the bleached/restored
negatives.
-Lew
>> A whole bunch of folks wrote:
>> > A whole bunch of stuff
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> it may hang around like vacuum tube audio and giant rats
> in the sewers.
PATRICK GAINER - 01 Mar 2006 01:17 GMT
>I can undertake Michael's first homework assignment as soon as I can get my
>hands on some bleach. I'd like to understand the mechanisms whereby the
>bleach will remove the stain and Kodalk or carbonate will restore it without
>changing the color of the stain first.

The bleach Michael referred to does not remove the stain, only the
silver. I have done this part of the experiment without using an alkali
bath. That bleach is Farmer's reducer. You can use it either mixed
together, or sequentially to remove the silver.

>For the second question, I don't see
>how I'd be able to photograph the wedge close enough to fill a frame, but it
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>-Lew
>  

I have an old 35 mm camera body  that I use with lens removed as a
contact frame for step wedge tests. I use the 21 step 35 mm size wedge
from Stauffer, trim it to fit between the rails, tape it in place, and
shoot as many frames as I want, usually a whole roll, which I cut into
short strips for developer testa etc. I use the enlarger as light
source. I take an incident light reading right at the enlarger's lens
board with the lens removed. I use the exposure time calculated by the
exposure meter's dial by considering the focal length of the enlarger
lens to be the lensboard-to-easel distance and the diameter to be the
lens indicated focal length divided by the lensboard to easel distance.
You can play with these numbers to get a usable combination. Be sure
there's nothing in the negative carrier.

With this setup, you can make identical negatives from the step wedge.
You can remove the silver from one developed in pyro, develop another
strip in a non-staining developer, and superimpose any combination you
can think of  to your heart's content. You can use the bleach and
redevelop method to make a stained negative from one that was developed
in a non-staining developer. Be sure that  the bleach you use for this
process has brimide in it and do not use hypo until after you have
redeveloped the bleached negative in pyro.
Frank Pittel - 24 Feb 2006 04:05 GMT
You're wasting your time with the troll. It's best to just ignore him.

Signature

-------------------
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you

ujazz32@hotmail.com - 24 Feb 2006 06:09 GMT
Frank, it is kind of entertaining to watch him squirm, but I'm sure
you're right.

Jay
Lew - 23 Feb 2006 01:07 GMT
I dub thee Jactol, Superadditive Staining Developer. Arise!
-Lew
Lew - 22 Feb 2006 21:13 GMT
Jay:
   I guess it'll be easy enough to add phenidone to my store bought DiX
since my tests show that I'm losing film speed as well as density. Would you
care to give your diy brew a name for future reference? Is it close to any
published formulas?
-Lew

>> Is that a staining developer?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> Jay
Richard Knoppow - 24 Feb 2006 06:12 GMT
>> Is that a staining developer?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
> Jay

  Have you a published source for sensitometric data on
Glycin developers?  If these are your own tests I won't
argue with them but would like to see something. AFAIK
developers other than special purpose ones don't have much
effect on curve shape.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Michael Gudzinowicz - 24 Feb 2006 14:35 GMT
[edited]

> <ujazz32@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>The above is mostly misinformed and oversimplified, but partly just
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>or tested a staining developer, and has no practical experience
>>whatsoever in this area.

Stain images (minus silver) have been printed for decades on VC papers. Most
pyro stains are "yellow", so photographing them with blue filtration with
ortho/pan film or VC paper enhances their apparent contrast; using yellow
filtration masks or hides the effect. Fortuitously the weak stain image requires
high contrast paper grades and "blue" exposure.

Likewise the variable stain density acts as a filter on VC papers, but the
contrast effect is weak except in areas of high density, and there the reduction
is no more that 1 grade. When the PMK formula was first published, I did the
"homework" problem before using the developer for negatives that would be
printed on VC papers.

In an email, Barry had indicated that the developer he was working on had a
neutral colored stain compared to pyro, however brown is nothing more than
desaturated yellow. His comments that the stain reduces contrast confirms that
fact. My PMK stains aren't "green"-yellow nor is there any staining of unexposed
film base after borax treatment. "Problems" seem to be related to the emulsion
or individual techniques.

The reseller advertising hype claiming that catechol is less toxic than
pyrogallol is absolutely false, and that should be evident to anyone who has
read the toxicology literature on phenolic compounds. You don't eat them or
cover your skin with them, though dilute solutions have been used as topical
antimicrobial agents.

I don't care for this type of misrepresentation to sell a product by giving
people a false sense of security. Both pyrogallol and catechol exhibit the same
range of toxic effects from dermatitis to death. The lethal dose of either
compound for human beings is two grams - the same as hydroquinone.

>>Dixactol is a catechol/glycin developer, and as such, I would expect it
>>to be rather slow working, and produce an upswept curve, and a speed
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>signature of glycin developers. If you're interested in making up a
>>home-brewed version of Dixactol Ultra, I suggest the following:

>    Have you a published source for sensitometric data on
> Glycin developers?  If these are your own tests I won't
> argue with them but would like to see something. AFAIK
> developers other than special purpose ones don't have much
> effect on curve shape.

I haven't seen that curve shape property ascribed to glycin. Very active
developers like hydroquinone in a relatively low sulfite solution (HC110A or B
compared to D76) and the staining developers may have that property depending
upon the emulsion characteristics. One expects to see it with the old long toe
emulsions formulated for that purpose: PCF, Ektapan, and Tri-X Pro sheet films,
and to a lesser degree with TMY. Phenidone may enhance the toe.

My suspicion has been that in areas of high image density there's a relatively
high concentration of semiquinone intermediates that can induce some infectious
silver development leading to increasing density. Since the reaction kinetics
aren't first order, the effect would increase disproportionately compared to
density. The speculation is supported by the fact that the polymers contributing
the stain density are formed through the same free radical intermediates, so the
semiquinones certainly are there at sufficient levels.
PATRICK GAINER - 01 Mar 2006 18:23 GMT
> [edited]
>
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
> intermediates, so the semiquinones certainly are there at sufficient
> levels.

I don't like to kick a dead horse (much), but there seems to be some
opinion that a yellow stain image added to a neutral silver image will
give lower contrast on VC paper than the silver image alone. If that
were possible, the yellow stain image printed alone would have to print  
negative, with more density in the highlights than in the shadows. It
does not. It prints a positive image, weaker than the pure silver image,
but positive nonetheless. In order to reduce the contrast by adding
yellow, it must be a uniform yellow stain or a reversed stain image with
stronger stain in the shadows.
UC - 01 Mar 2006 19:11 GMT
Patrick, that's what I have been saying!

The reaon the stained negative prints softer on VC paper has to do with
the fact that the green-sensitive portion of the paper is 'blind' to
the yellow density. Thus, the stain might as well not even be there,
and what's left (the silver image) is all that is available to check
the light. Since the silver image is of lower contrast and density than
it would otherwise be (if developed for graded paper) the negative
prints flatter on VC paper.

In other words:
A negative developed in pyro to print correctly on graded paper will
necessarily print softer on VC paper, not because of the color of the
stain affects the contrast of the paper, but because the silver portion
of the negative is thinner and flatter than if it had been developed in
a non-staining developer to print at the same contrast on graded paper.

> > [edited]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
> yellow, it must be a uniform yellow stain or a reversed stain image with
> stronger stain in the shadows.
PATRICK GAINER - 01 Mar 2006 21:01 GMT
>Patrick, that's what I have been saying!
>
[quoted text clipped - 121 lines]
>
>  

Maybe we're on the same page now. However, the VC paper does respond
differently to different yellow densities. I agree, it is not a matter
of color changing the contrast of the paper's emulsion. Each part of the
emulsion has its own contrast characteristics. The filtration determines
which part or parts get exposed and the negative determines to what
degree. The analysis gets complicated when the filtration is
proportional in some way to the silver density of the negative. If we
were to put the blue color separation filter in the projection path of a
yellow image, it  would print as a gray negative of some contrast.
UC - 01 Mar 2006 21:30 GMT
> Maybe we're on the same page now. However, the VC paper does respond
> differently to different yellow densities. I agree, it is not a matter
> of color changing the contrast of the paper's emulsion. Each part of
> the emulsion has its own contrast characteristics.

No, not true!

According to Ilford:

"MULTIGRADE papers are coated with an emulsion
which is a mixture of three separate emulsions.
Each emulsion is a basic blue sensitive emulsion to
which is added different amounts of green
sensitising dye. Thus, part of the mixed emulsion is
sensitive mainly to blue light, part to blue light
with some sensitivity to green light and part to
both blue and green light.

All parts of the emulsion have the same contrast.
They also all have the same speed to blue light,
but naturally, the part of the emulsion with only a
small amount of green sensitising dye has a low
speed (that is, is less sensitive) to green light.

When the paper is exposed to blue light, all parts
of the emulsion react and contribute equally to the
final image. This image is of high contrast because
of the additive effect produced by three emulsions
with the same speed and contrast. The resultant
curve has a narrow exposure range and is thus of
high contrast."

What this means is that the bluer the light, the more parts of the
emulsion react. Adding two or three images of the same density and
contrast in effect gives more contrast, as you can tell from working in
Photoshop layers.

> The filtration
> determines which part or parts get exposed and the negative determines
> to what degree. The analysis gets complicated when the filtration is
> proportional in some way to the silver density of the negative.

That's what I said before. If you restrict the light to the blue
wavelengths by using the stronger (more magenta) filters, the contrast
of the print may go up, but not necessarily in the same way over the
entire tonal range: the highlight areas may look 'odd'.

> If we
> were to put the blue color separation filter in the projection path of
> a yellow image, it&nbsp; would print as a gray negative of some contrast.<br>
> </body>

"
PATRICK GAINER - 03 Mar 2006 15:36 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>
>  

Nevertheless, since the yellow filter is also called minus blue, a
yellow density in the negative causes less blue light to hit the paper,
thus acting as if it were some value of gray for any blue sensitive part
of the emulsion. Therefore, a stain image that is yellow does in fact
act as a negative of  some degree of contrast and will print as a flat
negative on VC paper. Thus, the yellow stained image of a proper pyro
negative, where the stain is proportional to the silver image, will have
higher contrast on VC paper than would the same silver image without the
stain. The contrast of such a negative will thus be higher on graded
paper or any blue-only sensitive paper than on VC paper of current
construction. The stain part of this same negative can be separated from
the total by bleaching in Farmer's reducer to remove the silver. It will
print, albeit with lower contrast, on both graded and VC paper. Maximum
blue-pass filtration will sometimes make a satisfactory print from the
stain portion of a pyro negative, as will grade 5 paper. What is all the
argument about? We cannot by exposing a piece of VC paper in our
darkrooms determine if the paper has separate layers of different
contrast or a more simple mixture of emulsions, all of the same
contrast. We really should not have to decide. We simply follow the
manufacturer's instructions.
UC - 03 Mar 2006 16:08 GMT
> Nevertheless, since the yellow filter is also called minus blue, a
> yellow density in the negative causes less blue light to hit the paper,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> higher contrast on VC paper than would the same silver image without the
> stain.

True, depending on the color and density of the stain, etc.

> The contrast of such a negative will thus be higher on graded
> paper or any blue-only sensitive paper than on VC paper of current
> construction.

True. It can neverprint exactly the same on VC paper as on graded
paper. Raising the contrast by using magenta filtration will cause
non-lineraities, due to the fact that the silver image and the satin
image differ in color transmittance.

> The stain part of this same negative can be separated from
> the total by bleaching in Farmer's reducer to remove the silver. It will
> print, albeit with lower contrast, on both graded and VC paper.

Very faintly on VC paper with normal filtration (2-3 grade filter).

> Maximum
> blue-pass filtration will sometimes make a satisfactory print from the
> stain portion of a pyro negative, as will grade 5 paper. What is all the
> argument about?

The original poster wondered why his pyro did not give him the density
he expected. I explained it was because he was using VC paper, where
the stain contributes little or nothing to the printing density.

> We cannot by exposing a piece of VC paper in our
> darkrooms determine if the paper has separate layers of different
> contrast or a more simple mixture of emulsions, all of the same
> contrast. We really should not have to decide. We simply follow the
> manufacturer's instructions.
 
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