Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2006
Graded paper
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UC - 21 Feb 2006 22:12 GMT How are the grades of graded paper made different in contrast?
Grain size?
Michael Gudzinowicz - 21 Feb 2006 23:16 GMT > How are the grades of graded paper made different in contrast? > > Grain size? The simplest way would be through variation of the distribution of grain sizes. If you have a broad distribution, large grains would be exposed at lower light intensities than small grains, extending the response (low contrast; long exposure scale). With a very narrow size distribution, you move toward an all-or-none effect, where a small increase in exposure will completely expose the smallest grains (high contrast grades; short exposure scale).
Additionally, the grains are chemically sensitized, and I'd imagine that there are patents related to that, blending, etc. as well as trade secrets.
If you want to change the contrast of high contrast paper or lith film, or extend the scale of pictorial film, the film or paper may be treated with a very dilute proportional reducer (ferricyanide) prior to development. That treatment lowers the "contrast" of the latent image (actually it reverses some of the exposure by removing latent silver centers). That approach is outlined in my reply at:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/505080.html
Richard may have more detailed information - I think he has a reference books on emulsion making. I haven't looked at that literature for a long time (decades).
UC - 21 Feb 2006 23:24 GMT > > How are the grades of graded paper made different in contrast? > > > > Grain size? > > The simplest way would be through variation of the distribution of grain > sizes. That's what I thought, but image color varies with grain size. There must be something more to it.
> If you have a broad distribution, large grains would be exposed > at lower light intensities than small grains, extending the response (low [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Richard may have more detailed information - I think he has a reference books on > emulsion making. I haven't looked at that literature for a long time (decades). Michael Gudzinowicz - 22 Feb 2006 01:09 GMT >>>How are the grades of graded paper made different in contrast? >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That's what I thought, but image color varies with grain size. There > must be something more to it. Image color is due to Mie scattering in the developed emulsion, which is related to grain size. However, scattering or color per se doesn't determine spectral sensitization or contrast of the emulsion.
Mie scattering and image color was reviewed in the Nov. 1991 issue of "Scientific American" by Lam and Rossiter in their article on chromoskedasic printing. Dr. William Jolly improved and extended the methodology in three articles appearing in Darkroom & Creative Camera Techniques:
Chromoskedasic Duotone Pseudosolarization By William L. Jolly (D&CCT, 13, issue 6, page 30 (1992))
Dramatic Duotone Solarization By William L. Jolly (D&CCT, 14, issue 4, page 19.(1993))
Chromoskedasic Pseudosolarization Update By William L. Jolly (D&CCT, 14, issue 5, page 28 (1993))
If you're interested in image color, they are worth reading if you haven't done so. At one time the articles were posted to the web from Dr. Jolly's U.Ca. Berkeley web site. I don't know if they still are available.
>>If you have a broad distribution, large grains would be exposed >>at lower light intensities than small grains, extending the response (low [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >>Richard may have more detailed information - I think he has a reference books on >>emulsion making. I haven't looked at that literature for a long time (decades). UC - 22 Feb 2006 01:16 GMT Higher-grade papers have always been slower, which supports the idea that they are finer-grained. But I keep thinking there is more to it than that.
> >>>How are the grades of graded paper made different in contrast? > >>> [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > >>Richard may have more detailed information - I think he has a reference books on > >>emulsion making. I haven't looked at that literature for a long time (decades). Michael Gudzinowicz - 22 Feb 2006 02:26 GMT > Higher-grade papers have always been slower, which supports the idea > that they are finer-grained. But I keep thinking there is more to it > than that. That's not what I said or intended to imply. It's the Gaussian spread or distribution of sizes that determines contrast or exposure scale for unsensitized emulsions.
A narrow size range (large or small grains) requires less of a difference in exposure to expose all grains since speeds are similar. The grain size per se to some degree will affect color. Very fine grain emulsions are warmer than large coarse grains. However, either can be high or low contrast depending on the spread of sizes. The fine grain emulsions (and coarse) are sensitized to blue and green (the later resulted in "Rapid" graded papers), or else they would only respond to UV light like salt prints. Speed can vary with grade, or a manufacturer can use different degrees of chemical sensitization to match midtone ANSI printing speeds of different grades (which usually is/was the case).
The reason the paper emulsions use a very fine grain compared to film, is to improve image density without wasting silver. Very fine grains when developed have better covering power. An analogy would be covering a light box with a millimeter of graphite powder blocking all light, vs. a single "silver rich" layer of black golf balls, that transmits light.
The other reason is that the size distribution is easier to control.
You are correct... it is more complicated and that is reflected in the dedication of books to the subject.
UC - 22 Feb 2006 14:49 GMT OK, so narrow size range, again what I was thinking. But if that's all there is to it, how do they keep the same 'look' to the papers? High-contrast papers are slower, usually, which is not a bad thing when you realize that thin negatives are likely to be the ones printed onhigh-contrast paper.
> > Higher-grade papers have always been slower, which supports the idea > > that they are finer-grained. But I keep thinking there is more to it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > distribution of sizes that determines contrast or exposure scale for > unsensitized emulsions. I understand that. Perhaps I was not clear.
> A narrow size range (large or small grains) requires less of a difference in > exposure to expose all grains since speeds are similar. The grain size per se to > some degree will affect color. Very fine grain emulsions are warmer than large > coarse grains. Yes, this I know.
> However, either can be high or low contrast depending on the > spread of sizes. OK, this is something I am familiar with.
> The fine grain emulsions (and coarse) are sensitized to blue > and green (the later resulted in "Rapid" graded papers), or else they would only > respond to UV light like salt prints. Speed can vary with grade, or a > manufacturer can use different degrees of chemical sensitization to match > midtone ANSI printing speeds of different grades (which usually is/was the case). How about bromide/chloride ratios?
> The reason the paper emulsions use a very fine grain compared to film, is > to improve image density without wasting silver. And because you don't need film-like speed.
> Very fine grains when developed > have better covering power. An analogy would be covering a light box with a > millimeter of graphite powder blocking all light, vs. a single "silver rich" > layer of black golf balls, that transmits light. Oh, so true. The ads for 'silver-rich' films and papers crack me up.
> The other reason is that the size distribution is easier to control. Good to know that.
> You are correct... it is more complicated and that is reflected in the > dedication of books to the subject. Michael Gudzinowicz - 23 Feb 2006 03:39 GMT > OK, so narrow size range, again what I was thinking. But if that's all > there is to it, how do they keep the same 'look' to the papers? > High-contrast papers are slower, usually, which is not a bad thing when > you realize that thin negatives are likely to be the ones printed > onhigh-contrast paper. Well, they're slower if you look at toe speed, but that isn't how they are rated.
You can check Ilford's curves:
http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/pdf/galerie_fb.pdf http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/pdf/ilfospeed.pdf
The first is for Galerie, and the grades have the same speed and cross-over point, though toe speed varies. The second is for Ilfospeed, where G1-4 have the same speed, however, G5 has a different composition and is much slower.
If you consider two Bell or Gaussian curves with the same average grain size (same peak), but with different size distributions (width), one can reasonably conclude that the one with the larger distribution will have greater toe sensitivity, but lower contrast. If one takes the curves, uses an X-axis where size decreases going to the right, and transforms them to a cumulative frequency distribution form 0 to 100%, you'd generate two "S" curves. They would cross-over at 50%, The one with the broad distribution would have a long toe, faster toe speed, and less contrast. If log exposure were plotted vs optical density (a log-log plot), you'd have the H&D curves that one usually sees, and are generated by experimental data. The resemblance of the two isn't due to chance.
Now there is the G5 Ilfospeed outlier, which very likely is a very fine grain slow emulsion with a narrow distribution. However it isn't the norm. Graded papers with the same ANSI speeds are/were more common.
The early multigrade papers and very likely Ilford's current crop, use the same size distribution (speed and contrast) for the high and low contrast components. A portion is sensitized only to blue, and another portion is sensitized to blue and green. With a low contrast yellow filter, the component sensitive to only blue is not exposed, and only the "1/2" sensitized to blue and green is exposed. Fewer grains exposed = less density per unit exposure = lower contrast. With a blue filter, both components are exposed, and the greatest density per exposure unit results (highest contrast). Intermediate filtration results in different ratios. (Preceding is Ilford's explanation of how their MG papers work.)
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 22 Feb 2006 23:40 GMT > The reason the paper emulsions use a very fine grain > compared to film, is to improve image density without > wasting silver. Very fine grains when developed > have better covering power. Might that read; Very fine grains when finely developed have ...? My understanding is that the processing ph affects grain size. The lower the ph the finer the grain. So I'd think maximum density in a print results from low ph processing. I did an experiment with an RC paper developed in D-23 diluted 1:3. I was impressed by the black density. The print did need more exposure than a similar carbonated Ansco 120. Dan
Michael Gudzinowicz - 23 Feb 2006 04:28 GMT >>The reason the paper emulsions use a very fine grain >>compared to film, is to improve image density without [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 1:3. I was impressed by the black density. The print did need > more exposure than a similar carbonated Ansco 120. Dan I don't recall data on paper grain size or coverage vs pH.
You might want to check my "solarization" reply and link to Yurow's page through the chemigram link page. He lists a number of properties that are related to grain size, color, etc. Metol really is not a fine grain developing agent per se (hydroquinone is, BTW), and the deep cool blacks are due to large grains. The exposure increase or a long development time doesn't hurt.
With films, "grain" is related the holes between clumps of developed grains, and non-uniformity of grain distribution due to clumping. At low pH's, the hardeners in the emulsion are more stable, and with high ionic strengths, emulsion swelling is diminished. That leads to less grain clumping, and more even distribution ("smaller" holes). High sulfite and metol causes the grains to develop as filaments (increasing size) which also "fills" the holes.
The "warm tone" paper developers (fine developed grain size) often use hydroquinone as the only agent, and activation requires a high pH. The situation is different from film. Actually the paper that may have had the best coverage or highest reflection density reading was warm tone Portriga. Unfortunately, one couldn't take advantage of that fact, since the densities were so high that the eye couldn't distinguish one black from a deeper black.
UC - 23 Feb 2006 14:03 GMT My question concerns solely how various grades of paper are maunfactured without showing significant color differences. I have not identified a mechanism in the literature, Probably trade secrets.
> >>The reason the paper emulsions use a very fine grain > >>compared to film, is to improve image density without [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > the densities were so high that the eye couldn't distinguish one black > from a deeper black. Michael Gudzinowicz - 23 Feb 2006 15:05 GMT > My question concerns solely how various grades of paper are > maunfactured without showing significant color differences. I have not > identified a mechanism in the literature, Probably trade secrets. I think it's already been covered... they use the same average grain size but vary the distribution.
The details of crystal growth and ripening are trade secrets for a particular paper, but quite a bit has been published.
UC - 23 Feb 2006 15:24 GMT > > My question concerns solely how various grades of paper are > > maunfactured without showing significant color differences. I have not > > identified a mechanism in the literature, Probably trade secrets. > > I think it's already been covered... they use the same average grain > size but vary the distribution. OK.
I looked in Mees (From Dry Plates to Ektachrome Film) again last night, and despite a wealth of information on every conceivable topic relating to the manufacture of sensitized goods, this particular was not disclosed.
I am writing a book about 35mm technique, and a short treatment of grain size distribution is part of the discussion about how to get the finest grain in 35mm work (which is not by using fine-grain developers, by the way). By increasing exposure a little and decreasing development a little, more small grains are developed and fewer large grains are developed completely, giving fewer 'holes', which produces the grain we see. Also, infectious development is reduced.
Would you care to review the manuscript?
Respond to:
uraniumcommittee ---- @ ---- yahoo.com
> The details of crystal growth and ripening are trade secrets for a > particular paper, but quite a bit has been published. dan.c.quinn@att.net - 23 Feb 2006 23:37 GMT > By increasing exposure a little and decreasing development > a little, more small grains are developed and fewer large grains ... In other words reduce the EI and development time for finer grain. I'd think it as reasonable to reduce the ph. Ph has, apart from the film itself, the single most influence on grain size. Should not that hold for print emulsions as well? Dan
UC - 24 Feb 2006 01:31 GMT > > By increasing exposure a little and decreasing development > > a little, more small grains are developed and fewer large grains ... > > In other words reduce the EI and development time for > finer grain. Correct. Increase exposure, reduce development.
<I'd think it as reasonable to reduce the ph. Ph has,
> apart from the film itself, the single most influence on grain size. > Should not that hold for print emulsions as well? Dan Although ph is a factor, most film developers are fairly low in ph compared to paper developers, so this is not as big a factor as you might think.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 22 Feb 2006 17:22 GMT > Mie scattering and image color was reviewed in the Nov. 1991 issue of > "Scientific American" by Lam and Rossiter in their article on chromoskedasic > printing. Dr. William Jolly improved and extended the methodology in three > articles appearing in Darkroom & Creative Camera Techniques [I don't know > if they are still available] A chromoskedasic photographic print:
http://www.cchem.berkeley.edu/wljeme/fig6.2.jpg
Googling for
jolly chromoskedasic
[I have heard of "The Jolly Tinker", but this is takes it to a new level]
brings up:
http://www.cchem.berkeley.edu/wljeme/Chapt6.html
lam rossiter chromoskedasic
http://www.chemigramist.com/chromoskedasic.html
etc. etc. etc...
Enough to bring on chromosdislexia.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm
Michael Gudzinowicz - 22 Feb 2006 21:44 GMT Well, you found the trove that I felt had disappeared years ago.
The link to Jolly's entire online book on solarization theory and methodology is: http://www.cchem.berkeley.edu/wljeme/
The "chemigram" site's galleries and informational links are worth a click to browse through: http://www.chemigramist.com/
The links go to some of Teske's prints, Yurow's page on solution physical development, and other useful topics. Searching on the names of some of the artists with a term like "photogram" will brings up more applications and prints.
Thanks,
Mike
>>Mie scattering and image color was reviewed in the Nov. 1991 issue of >>"Scientific American" by Lam and Rossiter in their article on chromoskedasic [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Enough to bring on chromosdislexia. Richard Knoppow - 24 Feb 2006 03:07 GMT >> How are the grades of graded paper made different in >> contrast? [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > has a reference books on emulsion making. I haven't looked > at that literature for a long time (decades). I don't have anything reliable on emulsion making. I have noticed that image color varied from grade to grade in some of the older graded papers. By old I mean those of fifty years ago. I think current papers use blended emulsions with different sensitizing. There are also dopants that affect the contrast, but I don't have details. One would have to know much more chemistry than I do and go through fairly recent journal articles and patent literature to find out what current practices really are.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
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