Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2006
"Print So Fine" paper developer
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mariaandphil@madasafish.com - 08 Feb 2006 10:28 GMT I was under the impression that paper developers affect all tones equally, but here is one which enhances the midtones:
http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/photochemicals.html
Can anybody explain how this might work, please?
TIA - Phil Lamerton
Nicholas O. Lindan - 08 Feb 2006 14:43 GMT > http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/photochemicals.html > Can anybody explain how this might work, please? It sounds like a warm-tone 'Selectol Soft'. Warm tone is often accomplished with lots of P. Bromide. Lowered contrast may accomplished by lowering the amount of Hydroquinone.
I was taught to add a dash of P. Bromide to the paper developer if there was difficulty in keeping highlights clear, it is a trick that works well.
Patrick Gainer and Richard Knoppow I am sure know more.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm
UC - 08 Feb 2006 16:40 GMT mariaandp...@madasafish.com wrote:
> I was under the impression that paper developers affect all tones > equally, but here is one which enhances the midtones: > > http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/photochemicals.html > > Can anybody explain how this might work, please? Simple: Omit hydroquinone, add KBr.
> TIA - Phil Lamerton mariaandphil@madasafish.com - 08 Feb 2006 20:27 GMT Omit hydroquinone, add KBr. Lowered contrast may accomplished by lowering the amount of Hydroquinone. Warm tone is often accomplished with lots of P. Bromide.
Won't this lower overall contrast and warm all tones equally? The distributor of this new developer says there is an improvement in mid-tone separation compared to a standard print developer: http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Eymn&tag= Thanks again - Phil Lamerton
Nicholas O. Lindan - 08 Feb 2006 21:21 GMT > Won't this lower overall contrast and warm all tones equally?
> The distributor of this new developer says there is an improvement in > mid-tone separation compared to a standard print developer: 'Greater midtone separation is the _definition_ of lower contrast, it is just a windier way of saying it.
Warming all tones equally is a _benefit_, many toners 'split tone' where not all tones change color equally - it is not a pretty sight.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm
Jean-David Beyer - 09 Feb 2006 12:53 GMT >> Won't this lower overall contrast and warm all tones equally? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 'Greater midtone separation is the _definition_ of lower contrast, it is > just a windier way of saying it. If I wanted greater mid-tone separation, I would want _higher_ contrast, either in the negative or the paper to separate small differences and make them appear greater. _Lowering_ the contrast _reduces_ the separation.
With any given paper and viewing conditions, this would probably cause the shadow and highlight detail to be lost. The only way around that, other than heroic printing technique, would be to increase the illumination on the prints but not increase the illumination on the surrounding mat board or wall. This can be achieved under expensive conditions, but would not normally be obtained in the average residence. You need precise masked spotlights.
 Signature .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 07:45:00 up 19 days, 23:13, 4 users, load average: 4.44, 4.33, 4.22
UC - 09 Feb 2006 14:09 GMT No paper developer is capable of giving 'greater mid-tone separation'. Films's curves can be manipulated to do that, to a certain extent. Films like Tri-X and Plus-X have that property, achieved at the expense of somewhat lowered highlight contrast.
There is so much bullshit in photography it makes me sick....
> >> Won't this lower overall contrast and warm all tones equally? > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org > ^^-^^ 07:45:00 up 19 days, 23:13, 4 users, load average: 4.44, 4.33, 4.22 Digitaltruth - 10 Feb 2006 15:03 GMT Nicholas Lindan has written to me and will be posting the response I sent him, but the claim we make is supported by subjective analysis of the print. We strive to post accurate information on our web site and all product descriptions are designed to help people find what they are looking for. Unlike a lot of other companies in the market, Digitaltruth Photo is run by photographers.
Personally, I have used a lot of print developers and based on my own experience if I was looking for a warm-tone image with excellent gradation, then Print-So-Fine would be my choice. Its not a fast developer - typically taking a minute more than a standard developer - so its not for everyone, but I would recommend it to anyone who wants better contrast control. The image appears slowly so it is easier to pull the paper out of the developer before the highlights lose their sparkle.
I agree with Richard Knoppow's post, and given that sensitometry is complex I prefer to judge things with my own eye. A print is usually judged by people who look at it and not by scientific analysis; however, we do have people making sensitometric tests and will publish the data as soon as it can be properly assessed. I can assure you that there is no apparent visible loss of density reported by the various people who have made subjective analyses of the prints, so even if the sensitometry shows a technical reduction in density this does not invalidate the experience of actual users. I'd love to publish jpegs on our web site, but there is no way to show the subtlety of the effect on a monitor.
--Jon Mided
Digitaltruth Photo http://www.digitaltruth.com
UC - 10 Feb 2006 15:30 GMT A paper developer formulated without hydroquinine (which is what I suspect this product is) could still give a good D-Max, but would perhaps act slower. If KBr is added, that could also change things, including adding some warmth. It cannot, however, give hugher contrast in the mid-tones if measured objectively, but if the D-Max is ever so slighly less, the mid-tones could APPEAR to be more vigorous in comparison.
> Nicholas Lindan has written to me and will be posting the response I > sent him, but the claim we make is supported by subjective analysis of [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Digitaltruth Photo > http://www.digitaltruth.com Lloyd Erlick - 10 Feb 2006 15:32 GMT >there is no way to show the subtlety of the effect on >a monitor. > >--Jon Mided February 10, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,
... this must be why we talk about it so much! ...
regards, --le
Nicholas O. Lindan - 10 Feb 2006 16:22 GMT I received this from Jon Mided at digitaltruth.com:
> ... my own test results show a pronounced improvement in tonal > separation which appears equivalent to between half and one full > grade reduction in contrast; however, the highlights and shadows > appear as if no loss of contrast has occurred. To settle the original question: "What does 'Improved Midtone Separation mean'?" -- it seems it does indeed mean _lower_ contrast. Even though I agree with J-D that greater tone separation should mean greater contrast.
> I'm a photographer first and foremost, and not a scientist, but I ran > multiple side-by-side print tests and the results are clear. There are some of us who will only believe a sensitometeric test stand and densitometer results and those who rely on subjective impressions. Myself, if I can't measure it then it isn't there -- an engineering attitude, but do you want to drive over a bridge that is only supported by belief?
From Jon's description it would appear a claim is made for an H&D curve that tends to be 'chair shaped': a lowering of mid-tone contrast while high and low tones are left at normal contrast.
It would seem that two contact prints through a step tablet and a few minutes at the densitometer would show what is happening.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm
UC - 10 Feb 2006 16:36 GMT > I received this from Jon Mided at digitaltruth.com: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > mean'?" -- it seems it does indeed mean _lower_ contrast. Even though > I agree with J-D that greater tone separation should mean greater contrast. Of course. The word 'greater separation' means 'farther apart'. Two points on a steep slope are farther apart than the same points on a shallow slope. The only way this stuff could offer 'Improved Midtone Separation' would be if it modifies the H&D curve by some chemical means, such as adding bromide and omitting hydroquinone.
> > I'm a photographer first and foremost, and not a scientist, but I ran > > multiple side-by-side print tests and the results are clear. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > attitude, but do you want to drive over a bridge that is only supported > by belief? Nope.
> From Jon's description it would appear a claim is made for an H&D > curve that tends to be 'chair shaped': a lowering of mid-tone contrast > while high and low tones are left at normal contrast. That would not give Improved Midtone Separation at all, but Worsened Midtone Separation.
> It would seem that two contact prints through a step tablet and a > few minutes at the densitometer would show what is happening. Yup.
> -- > Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio > Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. > To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com > Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm Digitaltruth - 10 Feb 2006 22:31 GMT I think most of the analysis here is correct. Sensitometry will show some loss of density, but not to a point where it appears less than a full black on visual inspection. The developer is based on traditional ingredients and cannot perform miracles, but everyone who has used it is impressed by the final image quality and remarks on what appears as improved tonal separation.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 11 Feb 2006 00:26 GMT > I think most of the analysis here is correct. Well that's the nicest thing anyone has said about us in a long time...
> Sensitometry will show some loss of density, but not to a point > where it appears less than a full black on visual inspection. If there is detail in the shadows you have to stay well away from DMax. A DMax of 2.6+ isn't hard to get, but anything from 1.9 to 2.6 is invisible in the print unless you view it by transmitted light or with an arc lamp.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm
Lloyd Erlick - 11 Feb 2006 16:33 GMT >unless you view it by transmitted light or with an arc lamp. February 11, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,
Or direct sunlight. Just look at a print in direct sun if you want to see it without sympathy.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
nailer - 11 Feb 2006 05:45 GMT maybe it accentuates more important parts at the expense of less important. Human vision can take care of many faults. That's why measuring is less ambiguous. I support NOL's comments on the subject.
#I think most of the analysis here is correct. Sensitometry will show #some loss of density, but not to a point where it appears less than a #full black on visual inspection. The developer is based on traditional #ingredients and cannot perform miracles, but everyone who has used it #is impressed by the final image quality and remarks on what appears as #improved tonal separation.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 10 Feb 2006 16:26 GMT > On 10 Feb 2006 07:03:18 -0800, "Digitaltruth" wrote: > >there is no way to show the subtlety of the effect on > >a monitor. > ... this must be why we talk about it so much! ... "Oh! let us never, never doubt what nobody is sure about!" Hilaire Belloc
"Only issues that can't be settled are worth talking about." Me
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm
nailer - 11 Feb 2006 05:40 GMT print gradation is determined by an emulsion. You cannot selectivelly twist a characteristic curve to get chairl-like shape. It is well done in Photoshop though. Some developers have more balanced action of showing high and middle densities without affecting Dmin. If it takes one minute more, so what? Who said you need to develop in 1.5 min? It comes from machine processing for high output machines.
Sensitometry or densitometry are not difficult. It is not comples either. It is mathematical expression, a function of density vs illumination. It describes in unambiguous terms without resorting to very subjective words. You can spend time to tell about your impressions, but a char curve will do it in an instant. Problem, different curves suit different images, there is no one universal super char curve. For portraint one, for a landscape another etc. However, they complement each other very well (image, char curve and personal feelings/impressions.
#Nicholas Lindan has written to me and will be posting the response I #sent him, but the claim we make is supported by subjective analysis of #the print. We strive to post accurate information on our web site and #all product descriptions are designed to help people find what they are #looking for. Unlike a lot of other companies in the market, #Digitaltruth Photo is run by photographers. # #Personally, I have used a lot of print developers and based on my own #experience if I was looking for a warm-tone image with excellent #gradation, then Print-So-Fine would be my choice. Its not a fast #developer - typically taking a minute more than a standard developer - #so its not for everyone, but I would recommend it to anyone who wants #better contrast control. The image appears slowly so it is easier to #pull the paper out of the developer before the highlights lose their #sparkle. # #I agree with Richard Knoppow's post, and given that sensitometry is #complex I prefer to judge things with my own eye. A print is usually #judged by people who look at it and not by scientific analysis; #however, we do have people making sensitometric tests and will publish #the data as soon as it can be properly assessed. I can assure you that #there is no apparent visible loss of density reported by the various #people who have made subjective analyses of the prints, so even if the #sensitometry shows a technical reduction in density this does not #invalidate the experience of actual users. I'd love to publish jpegs on #our web site, but there is no way to show the subtlety of the effect on #a monitor. # #--Jon Mided # #Digitaltruth Photo #http://www.digitaltruth.com
Richard Knoppow - 13 Feb 2006 01:31 GMT > Nicholas Lindan has written to me and will be posting the > response I [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Digitaltruth Photo > http://www.digitaltruth.com I did not mean to give the impression that sensitometry is complex. The principles are fairly simple. Controlling the variables so that the measurement is valid requires some care but not beyond what a careful darkroom worker can do. For serious work it is necessary to have a real densitometer. They are rather expensive new but used ones are available at rather low prices because they have been displaced by the shift to digital imaging. The densitometer, as its name implies, measures the density of the image after development. There are two types of densitometer, one for transmission, another type for reflection. Some densitometers are equipped to make both kinds of measurement. To make the test exposures one needs some method of controlling the relative exposures accurately. Simply photogaphing a flat surface with a camera is usually not good enough because neither shutters or f/stops are sufficiently accurate. However, step wedges and reflection step tablets are readily available. These are offered in both calibrated and un-calibrated versions. The only difference is that the calibrated ones are individually measured with a NIST certified densitometer and correction factors are supplied. These are necessary for very accurate work but ane not required for simple experimental measurements to find the curves of film or paper or measuring approximate exposure index or the effect of different developers or development time. Such wedges are avaialable from Stouffer at http://www.stouffer.net/Stoufferhome1.htm where they are fully described. The wedges can be used by contact printing or enlarging. A reflection step wedge is useful for calibrating a reflection densitometer but it can also be used for direct visual comparison. The eye is very good at matching relative brightness of adjacent areas. So, one can get a pretty good measurement of print density by laying the step tablet on the print and matching the visual density of the area of interest. In serious scientific sensitometery its necessary to controll a lot of factors that are not so significant where one simply wants to compare printing papers or developers or films. "Real" sensitometery must take into account: The color temperature of the exposing source The diffusion of the source compared to the method of illumination to be used for the actual results, that is, it must take into account the Callier factor. It must take into account the effect of reciprocity failure. That is, there is a difference between step exposures made by holding the time of exposure constant and varying the intensity, and those made by constant intensity and variable time of exposure. Development methods must be such as to be highly reproducible. For instance, in making film speed measurements a special insulated tank (like a Thermos bottle) is used and special methods of agitation are used. Again, this degree of control in not necessary for the kind of determination most of us want but one should be aware of all the variables and try to contoll them the best one can. Now, as a minimum for experimentation I would suggest a reflection step tablet. One can photograph this and print the negative and then compare the tablet visually to the print. This simple procedure can tell you a lot about the tone rendition of the system. Beware that in prints the paper surface or texture makes a lot of difference. The highest contrast and widest range of brightness is gotten from glossy paper. Surface textures reduce Dmax and contrast because they scatter light. A highly textured surface will also suppress image detail (sometimes desirable) so textured papers should not be used for overall testing. However, the method described above will also tell you what the losses from the texturing are.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Nicholas O. Lindan - 09 Feb 2006 14:40 GMT > Nicholas O. Lindan wrote: > > > Won't this lower overall contrast and warm all tones equally?
> > 'Greater midtone separation is the _definition_ of lower contrast > If I wanted greater mid-tone separation I would use higher contrast Hmmmm, as Slick Willy would say: "It depends on what you mean by 'increased tonal separation". Is increased tonal separation expanding or compressing the mid tones of the print: are a small band of the scene's midtones expanded and well separated with higher print contrast; or are a greater range of the scene's tones brought into the print's tonal range and more of the scene is well separated in the print with lower print contrast?
I had taken "more midtones" = "more midtone separation".
I think I will change my definition to match J-D's: Increased contrast == Increased separation.
Any other thoughts on the matter out there?
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm
Nicholas O. Lindan - 09 Feb 2006 16:00 GMT > "Jean-David Beyer" <jeandavid8@verizon.net> wrote > > > Someone wrote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I think I will change my definition to match J-D's: Increased contrast == > Increased separation. Humph, I think I will disagree with my agreement with J-D's disagreement with my original disagreement. (What's Kerry up to these days?)
I don't use the term 'Greater Midtone Separation(GMS), so my understanding of the term and it's usage comes from prints and what is claimed about the print.
Prints said to have GMS are low contrast with a long tonal scale taking in all elements of the scene.
Prints that are 'soot and chalk' [to use the extreme of high contrast] are not said to have GMS.
I wonder what DigitalTruth, the manufacturer of the developer under discussion - "Print So Fine" - mean by the term? Forwarded this post, see what happens.
ref: http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/photochemicals.html
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm
UC - 09 Feb 2006 16:25 GMT All films have slopes that vary over the scale of the negative. 'Separation' is just another term for 'steep gradation'.
The slope at any point of a fil'm's curve is an indication of the contrast in that part of the scale. If the slope in the mid-tones is low (e.g., TMY) mid-tone separation will suffer. The slope of TMY is higher in the upper end of the density scale than in the mid-tones. Theerfore, highlight separation with TMY is greater than mid-tone separation. With Tri-X, it is just the reverse.
TMY: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4016/f002_0507ac.gif
Tri-X: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4017/f009_0490ac.gif
> > "Jean-David Beyer" <jeandavid8@verizon.net> wrote > > > > Someone wrote: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com > Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm Richard Knoppow - 09 Feb 2006 22:18 GMT > All films have slopes that vary over the scale of the > negative. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Tri-X: > http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4017/f009_0490ac.gif In general I have to agree with this. The relation between the tones of the original scene and the tone reproduction on the print are controlled by the response of both emulsions. The response is what is shown in the characteristic curve, sometimes called the H&D curve. These curves vary from paper to paper and from film to film. Note that overall contrast is shown by the slope of the curve. High contrast materials range from their minimum to maximum densities with small changes in exposing light, low contrast materials require a large change of exposure for the same density variation. However, the _relative_ values depend on the distribution of sensitivity of the halide particles, which is what the _shape_ of the curve reveals. A demonstration can be found by comparing two Kodak films: 400T-Max and ISO 320 Tri-X. T-Max is a relatively "straight line" film with a short toe (definition of toe is below). The ISO-320 version of Tri-X has a very long toe, in fact the curve is upward deflected all along its usable length. The difference in tone rendition will evident by thinking about the effect of this in relation to the original scene brightnesses. If you match the two curves for equal contrast index and for the same shadow and highlight densities, you will find that the Tri-X has less density for the mid-grays, so it will reproduce them darker than T-Max. This is sometimes desirable. One can find similar differences in paper curves except that a long toe on paper will result in brighter mid tones. In general, developers have little effect on the shape of the curve. However, additives like Potassium bromide does affect them. Bromide tends to suppress the very lowest exposures, so it has the effect of reducing the usable toe area. Another way of stating this is that it increases the relative contrast of the toe of either film or paper. The effect on film is to suppress fog and, if much is used, to lower speed. On paper the effect is also to reduce fog and to brighten the highlights. Specific developing agents do not have much effect but overall contrast of the paper can be varied a little (for some papers). The variation possible is not nearly so great as for film because film for pictorial use (as opposed to graphic arts use) is developed far short of its maximum possible contrast. Prints, OTOH, are usually developed to their maximum contrast, or at least, to reach their maximum densities. Some so called low contrast developers are merely slow and do not reach this density in normal development times (or sometimes ever). Some developers are selective in a way that does affect overall contrast but the range is limited, certainly less than one paper grade. Again, except for adding bromide or Benzotriazole, there is little effect on curve _shape_. BTW, neither variable contrast or graded papers have consistent curve shape throughout their contrast ranges. In most cases one grade different negatives can be printed to have identical tone rendition by changing the paper grade one step. The same with printing the same negative on a condenser and a diffusion enlarger, but larger variations may show some differences in mid-tone reproduction. Contrast and image color. Image color of prints (and negatives too) depends largely on the scattering of light in the emulsion. This is in turn controlled by the particle size of the silver making up the image. Extremely finely devided silver looks bright yellow (its used as the filter layer in Kodachrome). As it become coarser it shift toward blue. Since the grain size of the image is somewhat due to the developer very active developers that tend to produce coarse grains also tend to produce bluer colored images. Less active developers, for instance Kodak Selectol Soft and Ansco 120 (nearly identical) tend to produce finer grains and warmer images. They also tend toward lower contrast and slower development. Tone Seperation. I am never quite sure what is meant by this. presumably the ability to detect small variations in brightness. This is partly affected by the resolution of the image. Blurry images do not have good separation of anything including tone values since they tend to blend into one another. Partly, it is due to so called local contrast. At the highlight and shadow ends of a print the contrast is lower than in the mid gray area regardless of the paper, film, and developers used. This is because the toe of the film is affecting the shadow area contrast and the toe of the paper is affecting the highlight area. Often, when photographers complain of lack of tone separation in highlights (blocked highlights) its because they are trying to print a greater range of brightness than the paper is capable of reproducing. The only solution to this is burning in, either by hand or by means of a contrast mask of some sort. If variable contrast paper is used the blocked areas can be printed in using a lower contrast filter (with masking). The eye wants to see contrast similar to the original scene so simply lowering the contrast of the reproduction won't look right. As far as any developer claiming to modify the paper curve shape (or film for that matter) the proof is in properly done sensitometric testing. If there _is_ an effect it will show up plainly on an H&D curve. There is a lot of room for errors to creep in this sort of testing so one must be wary tests which are not very carefully designed and controlled.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
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