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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2006

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"Print So Fine" paper developer

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mariaandphil@madasafish.com - 08 Feb 2006 10:28 GMT
I was under the impression that paper developers affect all tones
equally, but here is one which enhances the midtones:

http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/photochemicals.html

Can anybody explain how this might work, please?

TIA - Phil Lamerton
Nicholas O. Lindan - 08 Feb 2006 14:43 GMT
> http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/photochemicals.html
> Can anybody explain how this might work, please?

It sounds like a warm-tone 'Selectol Soft'.  Warm tone is
often accomplished with lots of P. Bromide.  Lowered
contrast may accomplished by lowering the amount
of Hydroquinone.

I was taught to add a dash of P. Bromide to the paper
developer if there was difficulty in keeping highlights
clear, it is a trick that works well.

Patrick Gainer and Richard Knoppow I am sure know more.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

UC - 08 Feb 2006 16:40 GMT
mariaandp...@madasafish.com wrote:
> I was under the impression that paper developers affect all tones
> equally, but here is one which enhances the midtones:
>
> http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/photochemicals.html
>
> Can anybody explain how this might work, please?

Simple: Omit hydroquinone, add KBr.

> TIA - Phil Lamerton
mariaandphil@madasafish.com - 08 Feb 2006 20:27 GMT
Omit hydroquinone, add KBr.
Lowered contrast may accomplished by lowering the amount
of Hydroquinone. Warm tone is often accomplished with lots of P.
Bromide.

Won't this lower overall contrast and warm all tones equally? The
distributor of this new developer says there is an improvement in
mid-tone separation compared to a standard print developer:
http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Eymn&tag=
Thanks again - Phil Lamerton
Nicholas O. Lindan - 08 Feb 2006 21:21 GMT
> Won't this lower overall contrast and warm all tones equally?

> The distributor of this new developer says there is an improvement in
> mid-tone separation compared to a standard print developer:

'Greater midtone separation is the _definition_ of lower contrast,
it is just a windier way of saying it.

Warming all tones equally is a _benefit_, many toners 'split tone'
where not all tones change color equally - it is not a pretty sight.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

Jean-David Beyer - 09 Feb 2006 12:53 GMT
>> Won't this lower overall contrast and warm all tones equally?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 'Greater midtone separation is the _definition_ of lower contrast, it is
> just a windier way of saying it.

If I wanted greater  mid-tone separation, I would want _higher_ contrast,
either in the negative or the paper to separate small differences and make
them appear greater. _Lowering_ the contrast _reduces_ the separation.

With any given paper and viewing conditions, this would probably cause the
shadow and highlight detail to be lost. The only way around that, other than
heroic printing technique, would be to increase the illumination on the
prints but not increase the illumination on the surrounding mat board or
wall. This can be achieved under expensive conditions, but would not
normally be obtained in the average residence. You need precise masked
spotlights.

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UC - 09 Feb 2006 14:09 GMT
No paper developer is capable of giving 'greater mid-tone separation'.
Films's curves can be manipulated to do that, to a certain extent.
Films like Tri-X and Plus-X have that property, achieved at the expense
of somewhat lowered highlight contrast.

There is so much bullshit in photography it makes me sick....

> >> Won't this lower overall contrast and warm all tones equally?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>  /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey    http://counter.li.org
>  ^^-^^ 07:45:00 up 19 days, 23:13, 4 users, load average: 4.44, 4.33, 4.22
Digitaltruth - 10 Feb 2006 15:03 GMT
Nicholas Lindan has written to me and will be posting the response I
sent him, but the claim we make is supported by subjective analysis of
the print. We strive to post accurate information on our web site and
all product descriptions are designed to help people find what they are
looking for. Unlike a lot of other companies in the market,
Digitaltruth Photo is run by photographers.

Personally, I have used a lot of print developers and based on my own
experience if I was looking for a warm-tone image with excellent
gradation, then Print-So-Fine would be my choice. Its not a fast
developer - typically taking a minute more than a standard developer -
so its not for everyone, but I would recommend it to anyone who wants
better contrast control. The image appears slowly so it is easier to
pull the paper out of the developer before the highlights lose their
sparkle.

I agree with Richard Knoppow's post, and given that sensitometry is
complex I prefer to judge things with my own eye. A print is usually
judged by people who look at it and not by scientific analysis;
however, we do have people making sensitometric tests and will publish
the data as soon as it can be properly assessed. I can assure you that
there is no apparent visible loss of density reported by the various
people who have made subjective analyses of the prints, so even if the
sensitometry shows a technical reduction in density this does not
invalidate the experience of actual users. I'd love to publish jpegs on
our web site, but there is no way to show the subtlety of the effect on
a monitor.

--Jon Mided

Digitaltruth Photo
http://www.digitaltruth.com
UC - 10 Feb 2006 15:30 GMT
A paper developer formulated without hydroquinine (which is what I
suspect this product is) could still give a good D-Max, but would
perhaps act slower. If KBr is added, that could also change things,
including adding some warmth. It cannot, however, give hugher contrast
in the mid-tones if measured objectively, but if the D-Max is ever so
slighly less, the mid-tones could APPEAR to be more vigorous in
comparison.

> Nicholas Lindan has written to me and will be posting the response I
> sent him, but the claim we make is supported by subjective analysis of
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Digitaltruth Photo
> http://www.digitaltruth.com
Lloyd Erlick - 10 Feb 2006 15:32 GMT
>there is no way to show the subtlety of the effect on
>a monitor.
>
>--Jon Mided

February 10, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

... this must be why we talk about it so
much! ...

regards,
--le
Nicholas O. Lindan - 10 Feb 2006 16:22 GMT
I received this from Jon Mided at digitaltruth.com:

> ... my own test results show a pronounced improvement in tonal
> separation which appears equivalent to between half and one full
> grade reduction in contrast; however, the highlights and shadows
> appear as if no loss of contrast has occurred.

To settle the original question: "What does 'Improved Midtone Separation
mean'?" -- it seems it does indeed mean _lower_ contrast.  Even though
I agree with J-D that greater tone separation should mean greater contrast.

> I'm a photographer first and foremost, and not a scientist, but I ran
> multiple side-by-side print tests and the results are clear.

There are some of us who will only believe a sensitometeric test stand
and densitometer results and those who rely on subjective impressions.
Myself, if I can't measure it then it isn't there -- an engineering
attitude, but do you want to drive over a bridge that is only supported
by belief?

From Jon's description it would appear a claim is made for an H&D
curve that tends to be 'chair shaped': a lowering of mid-tone contrast
while high and low tones are left at normal contrast.

It would seem that two contact prints through a step tablet and a
few minutes at the densitometer would show what is happening.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

UC - 10 Feb 2006 16:36 GMT
> I received this from Jon Mided at digitaltruth.com:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> mean'?" -- it seems it does indeed mean _lower_ contrast.  Even though
> I agree with J-D that greater tone separation should mean greater contrast.

Of course. The word 'greater separation' means 'farther apart'. Two
points on a steep slope are farther apart than the same points on a
shallow slope. The only way this stuff could offer 'Improved Midtone
Separation' would be if it modifies the H&D curve by some chemical
means, such as adding bromide and omitting hydroquinone.

> > I'm a photographer first and foremost, and not a scientist, but I ran
> > multiple side-by-side print tests and the results are clear.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> attitude, but do you want to drive over a bridge that is only supported
> by belief?

Nope.

> From Jon's description it would appear a claim is made for an H&D
> curve that tends to be 'chair shaped': a lowering of mid-tone contrast
> while high and low tones are left at normal contrast.

That would not give Improved Midtone Separation at all, but Worsened
Midtone Separation.

> It would seem that two contact prints through a step tablet and a
> few minutes at the densitometer would show what is happening.

Yup.

> --
> Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
> Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
> To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
> Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm
Digitaltruth - 10 Feb 2006 22:31 GMT
I think most of the analysis here is correct. Sensitometry will show
some loss of density, but not to a point where it appears less than a
full black on visual inspection. The developer is based on traditional
ingredients and cannot perform miracles, but everyone who has used it
is impressed by the final image quality and remarks on what appears as
improved tonal separation.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 11 Feb 2006 00:26 GMT
> I think most of the analysis here is correct.

Well that's the nicest thing anyone has said about us in a long time...

> Sensitometry will show some loss of density, but not to a point
> where it appears less than a full black on visual inspection.

If there is detail in the shadows you have to stay well away from DMax.
A DMax of 2.6+ isn't hard to get, but anything from 1.9 to 2.6 is invisible
in the print unless you view it by transmitted light or with an arc lamp.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

Lloyd Erlick - 11 Feb 2006 16:33 GMT
>unless you view it by transmitted light or with an arc lamp.

February 11, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

Or direct sunlight. Just look at a print in
direct sun if you want to see it without
sympathy.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

nailer - 11 Feb 2006 05:45 GMT
maybe it accentuates more important parts at the expense of less
important. Human vision can take care of many faults. That's why
measuring is less ambiguous. I support NOL's comments on the subject.

#I think most of the analysis here is correct. Sensitometry will show
#some loss of density, but not to a point where it appears less than a
#full black on visual inspection. The developer is based on
traditional
#ingredients and cannot perform miracles, but everyone who has used it
#is impressed by the final image quality and remarks on what appears
as
#improved tonal separation.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 10 Feb 2006 16:26 GMT
> On 10 Feb 2006 07:03:18 -0800, "Digitaltruth" wrote:
> >there is no way to show the subtlety of the effect on
> >a monitor.
> ... this must be why we talk about it so much! ...

"Oh! let us never, never doubt what nobody is sure about!"
                                           Hilaire Belloc

"Only issues that can't be settled are worth talking about."
                                                         Me

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

nailer - 11 Feb 2006 05:40 GMT
print gradation is determined by an emulsion. You cannot selectivelly
twist a characteristic curve to get chairl-like shape. It is well done
in Photoshop though.
Some developers have more balanced action of showing high and middle
densities without affecting Dmin. If it takes one minute more, so
what? Who said you need to develop in 1.5 min? It comes from machine
processing for high output machines.

Sensitometry or densitometry are not difficult.
It is not comples either. It is mathematical expression, a function of
density vs illumination. It describes in unambiguous terms without
resorting to very subjective words. You can spend time to tell about
your impressions, but a char curve will do it in an instant. Problem,
different curves suit different images, there is no one universal
super char curve. For portraint one, for a landscape another etc.
However, they complement each other very well (image, char curve and
personal feelings/impressions.

#Nicholas Lindan has written to me and will be posting the response I
#sent him, but the claim we make is supported by subjective analysis
of
#the print. We strive to post accurate information on our web site and
#all product descriptions are designed to help people find what they
are
#looking for. Unlike a lot of other companies in the market,
#Digitaltruth Photo is run by photographers.
#
#Personally, I have used a lot of print developers and based on my own
#experience if I was looking for a warm-tone image with excellent
#gradation, then Print-So-Fine would be my choice. Its not a fast
#developer - typically taking a minute more than a standard developer
-
#so its not for everyone, but I would recommend it to anyone who wants
#better contrast control. The image appears slowly so it is easier to
#pull the paper out of the developer before the highlights lose their
#sparkle.
#
#I agree with Richard Knoppow's post, and given that sensitometry is
#complex I prefer to judge things with my own eye. A print is usually
#judged by people who look at it and not by scientific analysis;
#however, we do have people making sensitometric tests and will
publish
#the data as soon as it can be properly assessed. I can assure you
that
#there is no apparent visible loss of density reported by the various
#people who have made subjective analyses of the prints, so even if
the
#sensitometry shows a technical reduction in density this does not
#invalidate the experience of actual users. I'd love to publish jpegs
on
#our web site, but there is no way to show the subtlety of the effect
on
#a monitor.
#
#--Jon Mided
#
#Digitaltruth Photo
#http://www.digitaltruth.com
Richard Knoppow - 13 Feb 2006 01:31 GMT
> Nicholas Lindan has written to me and will be posting the
> response I
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> Digitaltruth Photo
> http://www.digitaltruth.com

  I did not mean to give the impression that sensitometry
is complex. The principles are fairly simple. Controlling
the variables so that the measurement is valid requires some
care but not beyond what a careful darkroom worker can do.
For serious work it is necessary to have a real
densitometer. They are rather expensive new but used ones
are available at rather low prices because they have been
displaced by the shift to digital imaging. The densitometer,
as its name implies, measures the density of the image after
development. There are two types of densitometer, one for
transmission, another type for reflection. Some
densitometers are equipped to make both kinds of
measurement.
  To make the test exposures one needs some method of
controlling the relative exposures accurately. Simply
photogaphing a flat surface with a camera is usually not
good enough because neither shutters or f/stops are
sufficiently accurate. However, step wedges and reflection
step tablets are readily available. These are offered in
both calibrated and un-calibrated versions. The only
difference is that the calibrated ones are individually
measured with a NIST certified densitometer and correction
factors are supplied. These are necessary for very accurate
work but ane not required for simple experimental
measurements to find the curves of film or paper or
measuring approximate exposure index or the effect of
different developers or development time. Such wedges are
avaialable from Stouffer at
http://www.stouffer.net/Stoufferhome1.htm   where they are
fully described. The wedges can be used by contact printing
or enlarging.
  A reflection step wedge is useful for calibrating a
reflection densitometer but it can also be used for direct
visual comparison. The eye is very good at matching relative
brightness of adjacent areas. So, one can get a pretty good
measurement of print density by laying the step tablet on
the print and matching the visual density of the area of
interest.
  In serious scientific sensitometery its necessary to
controll a lot of factors that are not so significant where
one simply wants to compare printing papers or developers or
films. "Real" sensitometery must take into account:
The color temperature of the exposing source
The diffusion of the source compared to the method of
illumination to be used for the actual results, that is, it
must take into account the Callier factor.
It must take into account the effect of reciprocity failure.
That is, there is a difference between step exposures made
by holding the time of exposure constant and varying the
intensity, and those made by constant intensity and variable
time of exposure.
Development methods must be such as to be highly
reproducible. For instance, in making film speed
measurements a special insulated tank (like a Thermos
bottle) is used and special methods of agitation are used.
  Again, this degree of control in not necessary for the
kind of determination most of us want but one should be
aware of all the variables and try to contoll them the best
one can.
  Now, as a minimum for experimentation I would suggest a
reflection step tablet. One can photograph this and print
the negative and then compare the tablet visually to the
print. This simple procedure can tell you a lot about the
tone rendition of the system.
  Beware that in prints the paper surface or texture makes
a lot of difference. The highest contrast and widest range
of brightness is gotten from glossy paper. Surface textures
reduce Dmax and contrast because they scatter light. A
highly textured surface will also suppress image detail
(sometimes desirable) so textured papers should not be used
for overall testing. However, the method described above
will also tell you what the losses from the texturing are.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 09 Feb 2006 14:40 GMT
> Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
> > > Won't this lower overall contrast and warm all tones equally?

> > 'Greater midtone separation is the _definition_ of lower contrast
> If I wanted greater mid-tone separation I would use higher contrast

Hmmmm, as Slick Willy would say: "It depends on what you mean by 'increased
tonal separation".  Is increased tonal separation expanding or compressing
the mid tones of the print:  are a small band of the scene's midtones
expanded and well separated with higher print contrast; or are a greater
range of the scene's tones brought into the print's tonal range and
more of the scene is well separated in the print with lower print contrast?

I had taken "more midtones" = "more midtone separation".

I think I will change my definition to match J-D's: Increased contrast ==
Increased separation.

Any other thoughts on the matter out there?

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

Nicholas O. Lindan - 09 Feb 2006 16:00 GMT
> "Jean-David Beyer" <jeandavid8@verizon.net> wrote
> > > Someone wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I think I will change my definition to match J-D's: Increased contrast ==
> Increased separation.

Humph, I think I will disagree with my agreement with J-D's disagreement with
my original disagreement.  (What's Kerry up to these days?)

I don't use the term 'Greater Midtone Separation(GMS), so my understanding
of the term and it's usage comes from prints and what is claimed about
the print.

Prints said to have GMS are low contrast with a long tonal scale taking
in all elements of the scene.

Prints that are 'soot and chalk' [to use the extreme of high contrast]
are not said to have GMS.

I wonder what DigitalTruth, the manufacturer of the developer under
discussion - "Print So Fine" - mean by the term?  Forwarded this
post, see what happens.

ref:
http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/photochemicals.html

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

UC - 09 Feb 2006 16:25 GMT
All films have slopes that vary over the scale of the negative.
'Separation' is just another term for 'steep gradation'.

The slope at any point of a fil'm's curve is an indication of the
contrast in that part of the scale. If the slope in the mid-tones is
low (e.g., TMY) mid-tone separation will suffer. The slope of TMY is
higher in the upper end of the density scale than in the mid-tones.
Theerfore, highlight separation with TMY is greater than mid-tone
separation. With Tri-X, it is just the reverse.

TMY:
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4016/f002_0507ac.gif

Tri-X:
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4017/f009_0490ac.gif

> > "Jean-David Beyer" <jeandavid8@verizon.net> wrote
> > > > Someone wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
> Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm
Richard Knoppow - 09 Feb 2006 22:18 GMT
> All films have slopes that vary over the scale of the
> negative.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Tri-X:
> http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4017/f009_0490ac.gif

  In general I have to agree with this. The relation
between the tones of the original scene and the tone
reproduction on the print are controlled by the response of
both emulsions. The response is what is shown in the
characteristic curve, sometimes called the H&D curve. These
curves vary from paper to paper and from film to film. Note
that overall contrast is shown by the slope of the curve.
High contrast materials range from their minimum to maximum
densities with small changes in exposing light, low contrast
materials require a large change of exposure for the same
density variation. However, the _relative_ values depend on
the distribution of sensitivity of the halide particles,
which is what the _shape_ of the curve reveals. A
demonstration can be found by comparing two Kodak films:
400T-Max and ISO 320 Tri-X. T-Max is a relatively "straight
line" film with a short toe (definition of toe is below).
The ISO-320 version of Tri-X has a very long toe, in fact
the curve is upward deflected all along its usable length.
The difference in tone rendition will evident by thinking
about the effect of this in relation to the original scene
brightnesses. If you match the two curves for equal contrast
index and for the same shadow and highlight densities, you
will find that the Tri-X has less density for the mid-grays,
so it will reproduce them darker than T-Max. This is
sometimes desirable. One can find similar differences in
paper curves except that a long toe on paper will result in
brighter mid tones.
 In general, developers have little effect on the shape of
the curve. However, additives like Potassium bromide does
affect them. Bromide tends to suppress the very lowest
exposures, so it has the effect of reducing the usable toe
area. Another way of stating this is that it increases the
relative contrast of the toe of either film or paper. The
effect on film is to suppress fog and, if much is used, to
lower speed. On paper the effect is also to reduce fog and
to brighten the highlights.
  Specific developing agents do not have much effect but
overall contrast of the paper can be varied a little (for
some papers). The variation possible is not nearly so great
as for film because film for pictorial use (as opposed to
graphic arts use) is developed far short of its maximum
possible contrast. Prints, OTOH, are usually developed to
their maximum contrast, or at least, to reach their maximum
densities. Some so called low contrast developers are merely
slow and do not reach this density in normal development
times (or sometimes ever). Some developers are selective in
a way that does affect overall contrast but the range is
limited, certainly less than one paper grade. Again, except
for adding bromide or Benzotriazole, there is little effect
on curve _shape_. BTW, neither variable contrast or graded
papers have consistent curve shape throughout their contrast
ranges. In most cases one grade different negatives can be
printed to have identical tone rendition by changing the
paper grade one step. The same with printing the same
negative on a condenser and a diffusion enlarger, but larger
variations may show some differences in mid-tone
reproduction.
  Contrast and image color. Image color of prints (and
negatives too) depends largely on the scattering of light in
the emulsion. This is in turn controlled by the particle
size of the silver making up the image. Extremely finely
devided silver looks bright yellow (its used as the filter
layer in Kodachrome). As it become coarser it shift toward
blue. Since the grain size of the image is somewhat due to
the developer very active developers that tend to produce
coarse grains also tend to produce bluer colored images.
Less active developers, for instance Kodak Selectol Soft and
Ansco 120 (nearly identical) tend to produce finer grains
and warmer images. They also tend toward lower contrast and
slower development.
  Tone Seperation.
   I am never quite sure what is meant by this. presumably
the ability to detect small variations in brightness. This
is partly affected by the resolution of the image. Blurry
images do not have good separation of anything including
tone values since they tend to blend into one another.
Partly, it is due to so called local contrast. At the
highlight and shadow ends of a print the contrast is lower
than in the mid gray area regardless of the paper, film, and
developers used. This is because the toe of the film is
affecting the shadow area contrast and the toe of the paper
is affecting the highlight area. Often, when photographers
complain of lack of tone separation in highlights (blocked
highlights) its because they are trying to print a greater
range of brightness than the paper is capable of
reproducing. The only solution to this is burning in, either
by hand or by means of a contrast mask of some sort. If
variable contrast paper is used the blocked areas can be
printed in using a lower contrast filter (with masking).
  The eye wants to see contrast similar to the original
scene so simply lowering the contrast of the reproduction
won't look right.
  As far as any developer claiming to modify the paper
curve shape (or film for that matter) the proof is in
properly done sensitometric testing. If there _is_ an effect
it will show up plainly on an H&D curve. There is a lot of
room for errors to creep in this sort of testing so one must
be wary tests which are not very carefully designed and
controlled.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

 
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