Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2006
CSI New York developer formula.
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Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 04 Feb 2006 20:41 GMT Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula for it came up on the screen. No explantion was given of what the numbers are.
It was a photographic developer. The formula was: (any typos are mine)
Hydroquinione 5.91 Phenidone 6.02 Potassium metabisulphite 7.? (obscured) Sodium carbonate 6.42 Sodium hydroxide 6.75 Potassium bromide 7.11
Anyone know what it was? Rodinal maybe?
Geoff.
 Signature Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 IL Fax: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
Rod Smith - 04 Feb 2006 22:01 GMT > Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue > was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Anyone know what it was? Rodinal maybe? It's definitely not Rodinal; Rodinal's developing agent is para-aminophenol (or para-aminophenol hydrochloride; the official current Agfa [or A&O, now] Rodinal formula is unpublished, and clones can use either). This formula uses phenidone and hydroquinone -- it's a "PQ" developer. Rodinal contains neither of these ingredients, and other ingredients are wrong, too.
More generally, assuming equal units (grams, say), the proportion of phenidone to hydroquinone is very odd. Browsing through Anchell's _Darkroom Cookbook, 2nd Edition_, I see several PQ developers, most of which have a hydroquinone:phenidone ratio of between 10:1 and 40:1. The above formula, assuming equal units, has a ratio of 0.98:1. The potassium bromide level also seems awfully high, again assuming equal units. In fact, the range of numbers (5.91 to 7.99, assuming the greatest possible range for potassium metabisulphite) is suspiciously narrow overall. Of course, if the units are different (grams vs. ounces, say), all bets are off. I didn't notice any formulas in Anchell that had the exact other ingredients listed, but I also didn't check every recipe in the book. The lack of sodium sulfite, which is very common in B&W developers, is odd but not conclusive proof that this formula is fictitious.
If I had to guess, I'd say that they did one of three things:
1) Found a formula in a book, used the ingredients list, but made up the numbers, either to avoid copyright/patent/whatever issues or because whoever did the research failed to copy down the numbers.
2) Looked up information on the ingredients for a developer in an MSDS sheet, which lacks precise quantities, so they made them up. I looked up the MSDS sheets for a few PQ developers but didn't find a good match. Of course, that doesn't mean they didn't use this approach, but if they did, I can't say what they used as a model.
3) Took a list of common developer ingredients from a book, made a list, and added some random numbers.
In any of these cases, this probably isn't a real developer, although it's conceivable that it's based on one. If so, I don't know which one it's based on. If they identified the substance in the show as a developer, then they clearly did SOME research on the topic, as opposed to the approach commonly seen on Star Trek, where they just pull something out from where the sun don't shine. ;-)
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PATRICK GAINER - 04 Feb 2006 22:06 GMT >Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue >was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Not Rodinal. Rodinal would have shown paraminophenolate, sodium and/or potassium, sulfite and hydroxide ions. The residue of any developer would not likely show the exact compounds that went into it. You probably cannot get the metabisulfite back after it has been dissolved in water and evaporated. Oxidation would have changed things, too. If I had seen that episode, I would probably still be laughing. I don't know many developers that would leave a white powder residue. Now, if it had never been dissolved, maybe.
UC - 04 Feb 2006 22:08 GMT Perhaps a color developer?
> >Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue > >was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > many developers that would leave a white powder residue. Now, if it had > never been dissolved, maybe. Jean-David Beyer - 05 Feb 2006 01:52 GMT > Perhaps a color developer? Not likely. They tend to have paraphenylenediamine-related compounds as developing agent with long tail substitutions to reduce toxicity and absorption through the skin.
>>> Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue >>> was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> many developers that would leave a white powder residue. Now, if it had >> never been dissolved, maybe.
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bjw@mambo.ucolick.org - 05 Feb 2006 02:54 GMT > Not Rodinal. Rodinal would have shown paraminophenolate, sodium and/or > potassium, sulfite and hydroxide ions. The residue of any developer [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > many developers that would leave a white powder residue. Now, if it had > never been dissolved, maybe. I do find that developer (D-76, at least) leaves a white residue if it drips on something and evaporates. The residue is not powdery, though. It could be something boring, like Borax.
The fact that all of the OP's numbers were nearly the same means they weren't relative amounts. They could be something related to the method of detection, or more likely, just made up. The CSI shows are entertaining but the reaction I always have is "No lab ever looks like _that_." (Also, why are the CSI people in on interrogations? But that is an issue of dramatic rather than scientific accuracy.)
John - 05 Feb 2006 04:16 GMT >I do find that developer (D-76, at least) leaves a white residue >if it drips on something and evaporates. The residue is not >powdery, though. It could be something boring, like Borax. It's sulfite.
== John - Photographer & Webmaster www.puresilver.org - www.xs750.net
Tom Phillips - 05 Feb 2006 04:08 GMT > >Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue > >was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > in water and evaporated. Oxidation would have changed things, too. If I > had seen that episode, I would probably still be laughing. I chuckle every time I see these cop show techno geeks enhance an almost microscopic low resolution video or digital image of a completely unreadable license plate to the clarity of a close up that could only be resolves with 8x10 tech pan. Course it always solves the case and thus keeps the show's rating high...
> many developers that would leave a white powder residue. Now, if it had never been dissolved, maybe.
They probably used sugar...
Matt Clara - 06 Feb 2006 15:28 GMT > >Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue > >was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > many developers that would leave a white powder residue. Now, if it had > never been dissolved, maybe. Xtol leaves a white residue, no? Either that or D76, as I've only used three developers, and HC110 is definitely _brown_.
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B. Anthony Cutteridge - 17 Feb 2006 16:43 GMT >> >Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue >> >was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Xtol leaves a white residue, no? Either that or D76, as I've only used > three developers, and HC110 is definitely _brown_. Leaving aside the quite correct notion that residue from a deveoper is not likely to show the individual compoents with any accuracy, it's safe to say that the 'recipe' given is not D-76, since there is no Metol.
If one is to assume that the compents listed are correct, it looks similar to two fine-grain P-Q (phenidone-hydroquinone) developers listed in one of my reference books:
(1) FX-18 (Crawley, 1961)
Dssolve in order: Water (80-100F) 800 cc Sodium Sulfite (Anhyd) 100 g Hydroquinone 6 g Phenidone 0.10 g Borax 2.5 g Sodium Bisulfite 0.35 g Potassium Bromide 1.6 g Water (cold), to make 1000 cc
Can be used straight, or at 1:1 and discarded. Use at 68F, for 5.5-9 min stock or 8-13 min at 1:1.
(2) (Unnamed but listed as similar to Microphen)
Sodium Sulfite (Anhyd) 100 g Hydroquinone 5.0 g Borax 3.0 g Boric Acid 3.5 g Phenidone 0.2 g Potassium Bromide 1.0 g Water to make 1000 cc
Use undiluted, average development time at 68F is 7-11 min for medium-speed film.
You'll note that the ingredients given on the TV show are rather unlikely, since any developer that contains both hydroquinone and phenidone contains considerably more of the former than the latter. In the FX-18, the P:Q ratio is 1:60, and in the second formula above, it's 1:25.
-Brian.
John - 17 Feb 2006 23:35 GMT >(2) (Unnamed but listed as similar to Microphen) > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Use undiluted, average development time at 68F is 7-11 min for >medium-speed film. The similarity to Microphen is in that this brew uses PQ but the amount of Borax and Boric acid are significantly lower.
== John - Photographer & Webmaster www.puresilver.org - www.xs750.net
Richard Knoppow - 05 Feb 2006 01:53 GMT > Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a > table. The clue [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Geoff. Definitely NOT Rodinal. I suspect its just made up. It has aspects of a very high contrast (lithographic) developer with the hydroxide and large amount of bromide, but the ratio of Phenidone to Hydroquinone is wrong. Metabilulfite can be used with Hydroxide to produce Sulfite in solution, so that part is OK. So, what did they use to analyse it? A gas chromatograph maybe. There was a recent news story that watching CSI is teaching criminals how to leave fewer clues.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
UC - 05 Feb 2006 01:56 GMT Perhaps a mixture of a developers?
> > Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a > > table. The clue [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Los Angeles, CA, USA > dickburk@ix.netcom.com nailer - 05 Feb 2006 06:44 GMT it's totally science fiction, it has no relation to any known developer. No, Richard. GC could not give you results for that composition. As fas as I know analytical chemistry - it is BS, there is no method (single) to detect and detrmine all components of a developer in one go. Amen.
Richard Knoppow - 06 Feb 2006 03:16 GMT > it's totally science fiction, it has no relation to any > known [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > go. > Amen. I was tempted to say it was just made up and should have. I think they just wanted something that looked like a developer formula and listed a bunch of stuff that is found in developers. This is known as poetic license and also keeps anyone from suing them.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Nicholas O. Lindan - 06 Feb 2006 04:18 GMT > I was tempted to say it was just made up and should have. > I think they [the CSI TV show] just wanted something that looked like a > developer formula To their credit it had some resemblance to reality.
To their discredit very, very few things in the show have any connection to reality whatsoever.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm
John - 05 Feb 2006 04:18 GMT >It was a photographic developer. The formula was: (any typos are mine) > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Anyone know what it was? Rodinal maybe? Nonsense. Completely made up. No film developer I know of(and I know most of them) used both carbonate and hydroxide.
== John - Photographer & Webmaster www.puresilver.org - www.xs750.net
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