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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2006

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CSI New York developer formula.

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Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 04 Feb 2006 20:41 GMT
Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue
was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula
for it came up on the screen. No explantion was given of what the numbers
are.

It was a photographic developer. The formula was: (any typos are mine)

Hydroquinione            5.91
Phenidone            6.02
Potassium metabisulphite    7.? (obscured)
Sodium carbonate        6.42
Sodium hydroxide        6.75
Potassium bromide        7.11

Anyone know what it was? Rodinal maybe?

Geoff.

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Rod Smith - 04 Feb 2006 22:01 GMT
> Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue
> was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Anyone know what it was? Rodinal maybe?

It's definitely not Rodinal; Rodinal's developing agent is
para-aminophenol (or para-aminophenol hydrochloride; the official current
Agfa [or A&O, now] Rodinal formula is unpublished, and clones can use
either). This formula uses phenidone and hydroquinone -- it's a "PQ"
developer. Rodinal contains neither of these ingredients, and other
ingredients are wrong, too.

More generally, assuming equal units (grams, say), the proportion of
phenidone to hydroquinone is very odd. Browsing through Anchell's
_Darkroom Cookbook, 2nd Edition_, I see several PQ developers, most of
which have a hydroquinone:phenidone ratio of between 10:1 and 40:1. The
above formula, assuming equal units, has a ratio of 0.98:1. The potassium
bromide level also seems awfully high, again assuming equal units. In
fact, the range of numbers (5.91 to 7.99, assuming the greatest possible
range for potassium metabisulphite) is suspiciously narrow overall. Of
course, if the units are different (grams vs. ounces, say), all bets are
off. I didn't notice any formulas in Anchell that had the exact other
ingredients listed, but I also didn't check every recipe in the book. The
lack of sodium sulfite, which is very common in B&W developers, is odd but
not conclusive proof that this formula is fictitious.

If I had to guess, I'd say that they did one of three things:

1) Found a formula in a book, used the ingredients list, but made up
  the numbers, either to avoid copyright/patent/whatever issues or
  because whoever did the research failed to copy down the numbers.

2) Looked up information on the ingredients for a developer in an MSDS
  sheet, which lacks precise quantities, so they made them up. I looked
  up the MSDS sheets for a few PQ developers but didn't find a good
  match. Of course, that doesn't mean they didn't use this approach, but
  if they did, I can't say what they used as a model.

3) Took a list of common developer ingredients from a book, made a list,
  and added some random numbers.

In any of these cases, this probably isn't a real developer, although it's
conceivable that it's based on one. If so, I don't know which one it's
based on. If they identified the substance in the show as a developer,
then they clearly did SOME research on the topic, as opposed to the
approach commonly seen on Star Trek, where they just pull something out
from where the sun don't shine. ;-)

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Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
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Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

PATRICK GAINER - 04 Feb 2006 22:06 GMT
>Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue
>was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>  

Not Rodinal. Rodinal would have shown paraminophenolate, sodium and/or
potassium, sulfite and hydroxide ions. The residue of any developer
would not likely show the exact compounds that went into it. You
probably cannot get the metabisulfite back after it has been dissolved
in water and evaporated. Oxidation would have changed things, too. If I
had seen that episode, I would probably still be laughing. I don't know
many developers that would leave a white powder residue. Now, if it had
never been dissolved, maybe.
UC - 04 Feb 2006 22:08 GMT
Perhaps a color developer?

> >Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue
> >was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> many developers that would leave a white powder residue. Now, if it had
> never been dissolved, maybe.
Jean-David Beyer - 05 Feb 2006 01:52 GMT
> Perhaps a color developer?

Not likely. They tend to have paraphenylenediamine-related compounds as
developing agent with long tail substitutions to reduce toxicity and
absorption through the skin.

>>> Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue
>>> was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>> many developers that would leave a white powder residue. Now, if it had
>> never been dissolved, maybe.

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bjw@mambo.ucolick.org - 05 Feb 2006 02:54 GMT
> Not Rodinal. Rodinal would have shown paraminophenolate, sodium and/or
> potassium, sulfite and hydroxide ions. The residue of any developer
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> many developers that would leave a white powder residue. Now, if it had
> never been dissolved, maybe.

I do find that developer (D-76, at least) leaves a white residue
if it drips on something and evaporates.  The residue is not
powdery, though.  It could be something boring, like Borax.

The fact that all of the OP's numbers were nearly  the same
means they weren't relative amounts.  They could be something
related to the method of detection, or more likely, just made up.
The CSI shows are entertaining but the reaction I always have
is "No lab ever looks like _that_."  (Also, why are the CSI people
in on interrogations?  But that is an issue of dramatic rather
than scientific accuracy.)
John - 05 Feb 2006 04:16 GMT
>I do find that developer (D-76, at least) leaves a white residue
>if it drips on something and evaporates.  The residue is not
>powdery, though.  It could be something boring, like Borax.

It's sulfite.

==
        John - Photographer & Webmaster
     www.puresilver.org - www.xs750.net
Tom Phillips - 05 Feb 2006 04:08 GMT
> >Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue
> >was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> in water and evaporated. Oxidation would have changed things, too. If I
> had seen that episode, I would probably still be laughing.

I chuckle every time I see these cop show techno
geeks enhance an almost microscopic low resolution
video or digital image of a completely unreadable
license plate to the clarity of a close up that
could only be resolves with 8x10 tech pan. Course
it always solves the case and thus keeps the show's
rating high...

> many developers that would leave a white powder residue. Now, if it had
never been dissolved, maybe.

They probably used sugar...
Matt Clara - 06 Feb 2006 15:28 GMT
> >Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue
> >was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> many developers that would leave a white powder residue. Now, if it had
> never been dissolved, maybe.

Xtol leaves a white residue, no?  Either that or D76, as I've only used
three developers, and HC110 is definitely _brown_.

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Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

B. Anthony Cutteridge - 17 Feb 2006 16:43 GMT
>> >Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a table. The clue
>> >was a white residue that some wonder machine analyzied and the formula
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Xtol leaves a white residue, no?  Either that or D76, as I've only used
> three developers, and HC110 is definitely _brown_.

Leaving aside the quite correct notion that residue from a deveoper is not
likely to show the individual compoents with any accuracy, it's safe to
say that the 'recipe' given is not D-76, since there is no Metol.

If one is to assume that the compents listed are correct, it looks similar
to two fine-grain P-Q (phenidone-hydroquinone) developers listed in one of
my reference books:

(1) FX-18 (Crawley, 1961)

Dssolve in order:
Water (80-100F)        800    cc
Sodium Sulfite (Anhyd)    100    g
Hydroquinone         6    g
Phenidone         0.10    g
Borax             2.5    g
Sodium Bisulfite     0.35    g
Potassium Bromide     1.6    g
Water (cold), to make  1000    cc

Can be used straight, or at 1:1 and discarded.
Use at 68F, for 5.5-9 min stock or 8-13 min at 1:1.

(2) (Unnamed but listed as similar to Microphen)

Sodium Sulfite (Anhyd)    100    g
Hydroquinone         5.0    g
Borax             3.0    g
Boric Acid         3.5    g
Phenidone         0.2    g
Potassium Bromide     1.0    g
Water to make          1000    cc

Use undiluted, average development time at 68F is 7-11 min for
medium-speed film.

You'll note that the ingredients given on the TV show are rather unlikely,
since any developer that contains both hydroquinone and phenidone contains
considerably more of the former than the latter.  In the FX-18, the P:Q
ratio is 1:60, and in the second formula above, it's 1:25.

-Brian.
John - 17 Feb 2006 23:35 GMT
>(2) (Unnamed but listed as similar to Microphen)
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Use undiluted, average development time at 68F is 7-11 min for
>medium-speed film.

The similarity to Microphen is in that this brew uses PQ but the
amount of Borax and Boric acid are significantly lower.

==
        John - Photographer & Webmaster
     www.puresilver.org - www.xs750.net
Richard Knoppow - 05 Feb 2006 01:53 GMT
> Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a
> table. The clue
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Geoff.

 Definitely NOT Rodinal. I suspect its just made up. It has
aspects of a very high contrast (lithographic) developer
with the hydroxide and large amount of bromide, but the
ratio of Phenidone to Hydroquinone is wrong. Metabilulfite
can be used with Hydroxide to produce Sulfite in solution,
so that part is OK.
 So, what did they use to analyse it? A gas chromatograph
maybe. There was a recent news story that watching CSI is
teaching criminals how to leave fewer clues.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

UC - 05 Feb 2006 01:56 GMT
Perhaps a mixture of a developers?

> > Last week's CSI New York had the murder leave a clue on a
> > table. The clue
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> Los Angeles, CA, USA
> dickburk@ix.netcom.com
nailer - 05 Feb 2006 06:44 GMT
it's totally science fiction, it has no relation to any known
developer.
No, Richard. GC could not give you results for that composition. As
fas as I know analytical chemistry - it is BS, there is no method
(single) to detect and detrmine all components of a developer in one
go.
Amen.
Richard Knoppow - 06 Feb 2006 03:16 GMT
> it's totally science fiction, it has no relation to any
> known
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> go.
> Amen.

  I was tempted to say it was just made up and should have.
I think they just wanted something that looked like a
developer formula and listed a bunch of stuff that is found
in developers. This is known as poetic license and also
keeps anyone from suing them.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 06 Feb 2006 04:18 GMT
>    I was tempted to say it was just made up and should have.
> I think they [the CSI TV show] just wanted something that looked like a
> developer formula

To their credit it had some resemblance to reality.

To their discredit very, very few things in the show
have any connection to reality whatsoever.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
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John - 05 Feb 2006 04:18 GMT
>It was a photographic developer. The formula was: (any typos are mine)
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Anyone know what it was? Rodinal maybe?

Nonsense. Completely made up. No film developer I know of(and I know
most of them)  used both carbonate and hydroxide.

==
        John - Photographer & Webmaster
     www.puresilver.org - www.xs750.net
 
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