Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2006
How does selenium do it?
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Lew - 01 Feb 2006 14:20 GMT Can anyone explain how the same toner can have opposite effects on different papers? I'm referring on krst's ability to cool off cold tone papers and warm up warm tone papers while, iirc, helping with the dmax of both. -Lew
Tom Phillips - 02 Feb 2006 01:43 GMT > Can anyone explain how the same toner can have opposite effects on different > papers? I'm referring on krst's ability to cool off cold tone papers and > warm up warm tone papers while, iirc, helping with the dmax of both. > -Lew Interesting question. I myself have only been interested in the color and density change I know I'll get with certain papers. So, can't give you an educated reason and chemists here probably have a better answer. But selenium works by bonding with the silver in the prints emulsion. Thus I surmise the selenium enhances the paper tone. If cold tone you get more cold tone. If warm tone you get more warm tone? frankly, I've found some warm tone effects unpredicatable, but not with cold tone papers I've used.
Although with Ilford Gallery (when I used to use it) there would be a consistent color change from natural green (chlorobromide emulsion) to neutral regardless of how long toning was.
G- Blank - 02 Feb 2006 02:15 GMT > > Can anyone explain how the same toner can have opposite effects on different > > papers? I'm referring on krst's ability to cool off cold tone papers and [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > emulsion) to neutral regardless of how long > toning was. It has a lot to do with the specific chemistry of the paper and toner interaction. This can be a result of how finely the silver is milled that a specific paper is made from, or the type of paper. Length of time in the toner, water chemistry (as in ph and mineral content) and toner dilution- probably infinite variables could be had with non delineated print making criteria.
 Signature "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
greg_____photo(dot)com
David Nebenzahl - 02 Feb 2006 02:20 GMT G- Blank spake thus:
>>> Can anyone explain how the same toner can have opposite effects >>> on different papers? I'm referring on krst's ability to cool off [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > dilution- probably infinite variables could be had with non delineated > print making criteria. In other words, "I don't know".
 Signature The only reason corrupt Republicans rule the roost in Washington is because the corrupt Democrats can't muster any viable opposition.
Tom Phillips - 02 Feb 2006 02:44 GMT > G- Blank spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > In other words, "I don't know". A lot like most of your posts...
G- Blank - 02 Feb 2006 11:31 GMT > > G- Blank spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > A lot like most of your posts... The problem is there is no definable set of circumstances as the question was asked, quite a few "borderline" "photographers" notoriously ask these nebulous questions without doing the math-research-testing themselves and then BITCH because they get a less than concise answer. I could have flatly answered "NO" there is noway based on the flawed way you asked the question to define the outcome but chose to try and get him to think-Oh well I guess somethings just don't work. I don't typically take the attitude that people owe me but I will say I have tested a sh.t load more paper and chemistry than all but perhaps a few here will ever test. Like in 100's-1000's of emulsion batches.
FWIW I did give a concise answer given the info he provided.
And as far as David is concerned if he could make a valuable contribution to this or other ng's it might be worth my time to unkill file him,..... but it won't happen ;^)
Did you notice how a new trend seems to be creating their "cute" little political sigs...........
 Signature "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
greg_____photo(dot)com
Tom Phillips - 03 Feb 2006 01:58 GMT > > > G- Blank spake thus: > > > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > FWIW I did give a concise answer given the info he provided. What Nebenzahl derides Nebenzahl doesn't understand...
> And as far as David is concerned if he could make a valuable > contribution to this or other ng's it might be worth my time to > unkill file him,..... but it won't happen ;^) r.p.d slide downhill the moment he began gracing it with his derisive presence. I'm sure he considers that his most valuable contribution as he's clearly proud if it.
> Did you notice how a new trend seems to be creating their "cute" > little political sigs........... Seems to parallel the trend to remake r.p.d and r.p.e.LF in their own image...
Lew - 02 Feb 2006 04:07 GMT ...that's what I thought he said, too.
> In other words, "I don't know". G- Blank - 02 Feb 2006 11:13 GMT > ...that's what I thought he said, too. > > > > In other words, "I don't know". Ok have it that way- I won't be answering any more questions.
 Signature "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
greg_____photo(dot)com
Lew - 02 Feb 2006 04:06 GMT Yes, I seem to get a nice, cool charcoal grey/black from my warm tone papers regardless of concentration or time.
> Although with Ilford Gallery (when I used to > use it) there would be a consistent color > change from natural green (chlorobromide > emulsion) to neutral regardless of how long > toning was. Lew - 02 Feb 2006 05:46 GMT Oops! I meant from my neutral tone papers.
> Yes, I seem to get a nice, cool charcoal grey/black from my warm tone > papers regardless of concentration or time. Ken Nadvornick - 02 Feb 2006 17:36 GMT > Can anyone explain how the same toner can have opposite effects > on different papers? I'm referring on krst's ability to cool off > cold tone papers and warm up warm tone papers while, iirc, helping > with the dmax of both. Regarding only the "dmax" part of your question, according to Stephen Anchell in The Darkroom Cookbook (2nd Edition, p. 96) the act of selenium toning a silver print converts the metallic silver in the print into silver selenite, which "has a deeper maximum black than metallic silver."
The various color changes themselves are enumerated and described, but not explained in depth.
Ken
From the book:
"Selenium toners, such as Dassonville T-55, convert the silver to [silver] selenite (examples of commercial selenium toners are Berg Selenium toner and Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner).
"Selenite is impervious to almost all environmental pollutants, with the added benefit that, at dilutions of 1:20 or greater,* it will not effect image tone. Not only that, but selenite has a deeper maximum black than metallic silver, enhancing the richness of the shadows.
* "The dilution is paper dependent. Some papers can stand a much lower dilution, some require more."
Lew - 02 Feb 2006 19:08 GMT Good enough on the dmax issue. . Since silver selinite is silver selinite regardless of whether the underlying paper is warm toned or cool toned, we're left with the cool->cooler, warm->warmer part. Why don't all papers just tend toward silver selinte tone as toning increases? Thanks. -Lew
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 02 Feb 2006 22:56 GMT > Since silver selinite is silver selinite... Lew As with sulf-IDE it is selen-IDE. Sulfur and Selenium are two very similar elements. As a solution of sodium sulfide will produce silver sulfide, a solution of sodium selenide might be expected to produce silver selenide. Search this NG for, selenium selenite . Dr. Gudzinowicz as well as others offer some good information. Dan
Richard Knoppow - 03 Feb 2006 22:58 GMT > Can anyone explain how the same toner can have opposite > effects on different papers? I'm referring on krst's > ability to cool off cold tone papers and warm up warm tone > papers while, iirc, helping with the dmax of both. > -Lew The color of the original image and the color of the toned image are both dependent on the size and structure of the silver crystals. In general (meaning with some qualifications), the coarser the crystals the bluer the image color. Extremely finely devided silver (colloidal silver) is bright yellow. In fact, the yellow filter layer in Kodachrome is made of colloidal silver. When toned the structure tends to remain the same as the original. So, the Silver selenide resulting from Selenium toning will be bluish or purple on cold tone papers and on film and more red or yellowish where the original silver is finely devided. Sulfiding toners are similar, the coarser the original the colder the brown. In fact, Polysulfide toners, like Kodak Brown Toner, result in a slight cooling of the color of microfilm when used to protect the image. This is because the color of Silver sulfide is also dependent on the structure of the crystals. Very cold tone papers are usually toned by bleaching them first and then treating them in a sulfide bath. The image color still depends somewhat on the original color but not so directly because the original silver is converted back to a halide by the bleach before toning. Direct toners, like KBT or Kodak Selenium toner, tend to preserve the original size and distribution of the image silver. KRST and some other toners (Gold for instance) intensify the original image. This is NOT because they are "blacker" then the original silver but because they add to the covering power of the silver by increasing the size of the grains a little. Actually, silver can be used for intensifying, for instance Kodak In-5. This intensifier increases density without chaning image color. Indirect Sepia toners (bleach and redevelop type) can also be intensifiers provided that there is absolutely no hypo remaining in the emulsion. Any hypo will combine with the bleach to form Farmer's reducer and will slighly lower the density rather than increase it.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Lew - 04 Feb 2006 04:15 GMT Thanks for taking the time, Richard. This is a thorough, clear and considered explanation.
-Lew
Richard Knoppow - 04 Feb 2006 05:59 GMT > Thanks for taking the time, Richard. This is a thorough, > clear and considered explanation. > > -Lew Looking at it again I think it might have been clearer if I had included something about the light being scattered by the particles which make up the image. It is the scattering and interference of different wavelengths that produces the color. While we see "grain" in both negatives and prints the actual silver crystals are microscopic. The apparent grain is due to grouping of the individual particals, either actual clumping or the appearance of clumps from grains at different depths of the emulsion. Both the size and distribution of the individual silver particles and "clumps" affect the image color. Toning further changes the structure. Some materials used in toners have an actual color. For instance, the blue generated by Iron-blue toner. This is similar to the material of which blue prints are made.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Lew - 04 Feb 2006 12:27 GMT Well, I can't accept your criticism of your original answer, but I appreciate the additional information. -Lew
>> Thanks for taking the time, Richard. This is a thorough, clear and >> considered explanation. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > blue generated by Iron-blue toner. This is similar to the material of > which blue prints are made. Nicholas O. Lindan - 04 Feb 2006 14:47 GMT > Some materials used in toners have an actual color. For > instance, the blue generated by Iron-blue toner. This is > similar to the material of which blue prints are made. Often called 'Prussian Blue', Iron(III)-hexacyanoferrate(II), is/is related to/ the blue that forms when Farmer's reducer goes off.
The origin of color of Prussian Blue is an electronic transition from a low-spin Fe2+ ion in a carbon-coordination center to a high spin Fe 3+ ion in a nitrogen-coordination enter that occurs when visible light is absorbed at 680nm. This absorption is called the intervalence transfer band which produces the intense color of Prussian Blue.
Like I knew that all along....
Cribbed from: http://www.sewanee.edu/chem/Chem&Art/Detail_Pages/Pigments/Prussian_Blue
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm
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