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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2006EFKE film - suitable filters
I would appreciate advice on filters to use with this "ortho-panchromatic" film. Thanks - Phil Lamerton The film has slightly less red sensitivity, so you simply need to give a little more exposure than usual for a red or orange filter. Why are you messing with that stuff? Neopan 100 Acros is about the same grain! mariaandp...@madasafish.com wrote: > I would appreciate advice on filters to use with this > "ortho-panchromatic" film. > Thanks - Phil Lamerton >Neopan 100 Acros is about the same grain! I've been looking for a cheap source of Acros in 120 or 220. Any secret sources? > >Neopan 100 Acros is about the same grain! > > I've been looking for a cheap source of Acros in 120 or 220. Any secret > sources? Try Midwest Photo, Cord Camera, or McAlister Camera. They may have short-date stuff at low prices. http://www.mpex.com/ http://www.cordcamera.com/ http://www.mcalistercamera.com/ I haven't bought any Efke film yet but I wanted to make some old-fashioned looking images on a trip to Eastern Europe later this year and, from what I've read, this film could help me to do it. So it's best not to use any filter then? > I haven't bought any Efke film yet but I wanted to make some > old-fashioned looking images on a trip to Eastern Europe later this > year and, from what I've read, this film could help me to do it. > > So it's best not to use any filter then? You need and old fashioned one. What exactly did "they suggest".  Signature"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 greg_____photo(dot)com > You need and old fashioned one. What exactly did "they suggest". OK, I'm no expert and have never used the stuff. I do however have a copy of 'The Dictionary of Photography', 17th edition, third impression 1952. The dust jacket proclaims it has been in print over 60 years. Orthochromatic film is covered under 'colour-sensative emulsions'. It discussed 'modern orthochromatic emulsions' so it might be the sort of reference book you need. If you are using Orthochromatic film of type 'B', which has a dip in sensativity at the blue/green part of its response it suggests a 'yellow filter of quite moderate depth'. Further, for type C orthochromatic film which does not have the dip in the blue green sensativity but has a reduced blue sensativity it suggests a 'still paler yellow filter'. Note that the aim with the above is to obtain a realistic representation. It also notes the lack of red sensativity. Pete Signaturehttp://www.petezilla.co.uk These films are panchromatic, not orthochromatic. > > You need and old fashioned one. What exactly did "they suggest". > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Pete > These films are panchromatic, not orthochromatic. OK, but is does not make much difference: It states that ortho-panchromatic film, also known as recte-panchromatic film is adjusted to give without a filter the closes possible approach to correct production of colours in monochrome. It then notes in most cases there is an excessive sensitivity to blue and therefore a yellow filter of moderate depth should be used. Signaturehttp://www.petezilla.co.uk > I haven't bought any Efke film yet but I wanted to make some > old-fashioned looking images on a trip to Eastern Europe later this > year and, from what I've read, this film could help me to do it. > > So it's best not to use any filter then? I'm not sure what you're driving at. EFKE films are simply older emulsions that have been kept in production a long time. They are relatively primitive by today's standards, but so are Tri-X and Plus-X, the oldest Kodak films still on the market. Ilford HP5 Plus and FP4 Plus are better, in my opinion, as are Neopan 400 and Neopan 100 Acros. The Kodak films look 'old' because they were designed in the 1950s, as were the EFKE films If you can find some, Neopan SS 100, an older emulsion, is nice too. It is a little grainier than Acros, and is available quite cheap. The EFKE films are nothing special. They are primitive in sensitization, which is why they are ortho-panchromatic. Simply put, tehy are slightly less red-sensitive than more modern films. In 1952, they were quite something, but today I see no reason to use them. The contrast of ISO 25 stuff is VERY hard to control. The grain is really no finer than Acros 100 or Pan-F, both of which are faster (about EI 50-80). > In 1952, they were quite something, but today I see no reason to > use them. Don't like to admit it but for once he's absolutely spot on. Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses Thanks for your information and advice - the only reason I wanted to use EFKE was to obtain a "retro" look for a specific project. Could I obtain the same tonality with Tri-X and Plus-X ? TIA - Phil Lamerton : Thanks for your information and advice - the only reason I wanted to : use EFKE was to obtain a "retro" look for a specific project. Could I : obtain the same tonality with Tri-X and Plus-X ? : TIA - Phil Lamerton The way Efke films respond to light is unique different from tri-x and plus-x. As always when using filters with a film that you're not familiar with make sure that you make an exposure without any filter as well as one with different levels of filter. Also remember that Efke-25 and Efke-50 is almost insensitive to red light. Avoid red filters. Also avoid dealing with the resident troll. (uc) If we all ignore it, it will go away. Signature------------------- Keep working millions on welfare depend on you > Thanks for your information and advice - the only reason I wanted to > use EFKE was to obtain a "retro" look for a specific project. Could I > obtain the same tonality with Tri-X and Plus-X ? No, the Efke film has a "look" all of it's own. I would use it without a filter, especialy on landscapes. Panatomic X with a light green filter would have been closer, Plus-X is much too grainy. Tech Pan with a dark green filter to compensate for the extended red sensativity might be closer, however I thought that all Kodak Black and White film except for the C-41 films were now extinct. For a classic look, try Rodinal (clones). That would have been a popular combination. Another would have been D-76. If you can get it, Edwal FG-7 works great with it. Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 IL Fax: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Vist my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ > Tech Pan with a dark green filter to compensate for the extended red > sensativity might be closer, however I thought that all Kodak Black > and White film except for the C-41 films were now extinct. Why do you think that? I believe Tech Pan is gone, but Plus-X, Tri-X, Tmax 100, 400, and 3200 are all in stock at B&H. Also you can still buy a consumer version of one of the C-41 B&W 35mm films at mass market retailers (I think I saw it at Target). > For a classic look, try Rodinal (clones). That would have been a popular > combination. Another would have been D-76. "Would have been"? D-76 still exists. Kodak quit making B&W paper, not B&W everything. > If you can get it, Edwal FG-7 works great with it. > Kodak quit making B&W paper, not B&W everything. Thanks for the correction. I had not seen the actual press release, only what I read here. Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 IL Fax: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ > Thanks for your information and advice - the only reason I wanted to > use EFKE was to obtain a "retro" look for a specific project. Could I > obtain the same tonality with Tri-X and Plus-X ? > TIA - Phil Lamerton I don't know what 'retro look' means. It's advertising hype. Simply put, using a more primitive emulsion will give you more primitive-looking images. So will using 1960s Nikkor lenses. So will using Rodinal. If you want a primitive look, I suggest you get some old Nikon or Nikkormat cameras and lenses and use Plus-X and develop it in Rodinal. It'll look like crap, but if that's what you want, that's how to get it. EFKE films are no better than Plus-X. I never noticed the slightly reduced red sensitivity of the 25-speed material when I used it. It simply means that early or late in the day, you have to give a bit more exposure. It's nothing dramatic. EFKE: http://www.jandcphoto.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=1 Plus-X: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4018/f009_0431ac.gif > Thanks for your information and advice - the only reason I wanted to > use EFKE was to obtain a "retro" look for a specific project. What's 'retro': Communist Eastern Europe; WWII London; 1930's Belgrade; Fin de Siecle Paris? A style: Arts & Crafts; Viennese Moderne; Art Deco; Bauhaus; Modern; Social Realism? > Could I obtain the same tonality Hmmm, I won't ask for what 'tonality' is. I take you mean the mood of the picture: Heavy, black, grainy for the Comecon look; Sparkling and sunny for Arts & Crafts; Smokey and wet for Viennese moderne; Black and wet for Weimar Berlin; Heavy, black and not so grainy for Bill Brandt's London. > Tri-X and Plus-X ? I don't think the film is the answer. I have found the film won't do the work for me and I can do the work with most any film I choose. From what I know, I would try, for instance: The heavy black grainy Croatian look: take pictures on a cloudy day; underexpose and overdevelop; use only a small portion of the negative and blow it way up to get lots of grain - use a wide-angle lens or stand far back; develop in Dektol FS if you want more grain. Add a muddy field, an abandoned Skoda, gaunt trees and corn stubble and have a man in a flat cap/stooped lady in a babushka carry a sack of coal through the scene. Taking the picture on Croatian film may add to the mood of the photographer and make it easier to 'get in the groove' but it won't turn Santa Cruz into the Balkans. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm Bahahaha Ha ha- LOL ... >the mood of the picture: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Black and wet for Weimar Berlin; > Heavy, black and not so grainy for Bill Brandt's London. ... January 28, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick, Oh, thank you! --le (hey, what about Karsh's Ottawa??) >but it won't turn Santa Cruz into the Balkans. You're on such a roll -- please continue with this one... regards, --le Signature________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________ >Taking the picture on Croatian film may add to the mood >of the photographer and make it easier to 'get in the groove' >but it won't turn Santa Cruz into the Balkans. Yeah but one good rumble of mother Nature's belly and it might make the Balkans look like paradise. == John - Photographer & Webmaster www.puresilver.org - www.xs750.net > Thanks for your information and advice - the only reason I wanted to > use EFKE was to obtain a "retro" look for a specific project. Could I > obtain the same tonality with Tri-X and Plus-X ? > TIA - Phil Lamerton Tell us what you have in mind for this 'project'. > I would appreciate advice on filters to use with this > "ortho-panchromatic" film. Deep black. SCNR Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses Please be aware that the marketing line for these films is hysterically funny to any of us that know the truth about films. 'High silver content' my a.s. The particle size, amount, and distribution of silver halides in a film is determined solely by the demands of image quality, and careful scientific measurment. Emulsion design is not subject to the whims of advertizing copy writers. > I would appreciate advice on filters to use with this > "ortho-panchromatic" film. > Thanks - Phil Lamerton >I would appreciate advice on filters to use with this > "ortho-panchromatic" film. > Thanks - Phil Lamerton If you want the ortho look try a blue filter with regular film. Natural Light Black and White Photography http://mysite.verizon.net/vze76ane/ -George- >>I would appreciate advice on filters to use with this >> "ortho-panchromatic" film. "Orthopanchromatic" means "correct panchromatic" rather than a cross between orthochromatic and panchromatic. Many years ago there used to be many "hyper-panchromatic" films which were oversensitive to red. Kodak calls orthopanchromatic films "type B" and hyperpanchromatic films "type C." The Efke films are a bit less sensitive to red than most "type B" films. (Kodak's "type A" films were the old pre-1931 panchromatic films which were strongly oversensitive to blue.) > If you want the ortho look try a blue filter with regular film. A blue filter (such as a #47) will give you a colour-blind look rather than an ortho look. Ortho films are quite sensitive to green and yellow so that grass comes out a reasonably light shade on ortho films instead of quite dark as it appears on colour-blind materials. A #44A minus-red filter would give you the ortho look, but it is a hard filter to find in anything other than a gel. Maco PO-100 is a good choice for a fine grained ortho film is you really want that look. I've used it and it is nice for what it is, but most of the time I'm not too keen on reds appearing really dark. The dark reds can sometimes give a nice effect on brick buildings. Old-fashioned means different things to different people. 1930s 35mm film was generally panchromatic, but rather grainy except for the really slow films. Most plates for large format were color-blind (blue sensitive only) though both ortho and panchromatic plates were reasonably common in the early twentieth century. The most common old rollfilms were orthochromatic, though the early Kodak NC films were only slightly sensitive to green. Panchromatic rollfilm was readily obtainable in the 1930s, but wasn't as popular as the highly orthochromatic films like Verichrome which had plenty of sensitivity to green, but none to red. I think it would help if the OP specified what kind of look he was going for, a reference to well known photographs or the work of a particular photographer might be helpful. Peter. Signaturepirwin@ktb.net Yes, these films, as I said, are only slightly less red-sensitive than Plus-X or Tri-X. > >>I would appreciate advice on filters to use with this > >> "ortho-panchromatic" film. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Peter. > A #44A minus-red filter would > give you the ortho look, but it is a hard filter to find [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > -- > pirwin@ktb.net Thanks for all the advice received. I'm not entirely certain about the exact type of image I'd like to end up with (this will be my first trip to Eastern Europe) but I'd like to take some pictures that look as if they might have been taken in the 1920/30s. I'd like to include some street scenes with people in the historic parts of Prague, Vienna and Budapest, (though I suspect it will be difficult to come across anybody who isn't dressed like a typical Westerner, these days). I think Viennese Moderne sounds closer to what I'd like to achieve; I'm not keen to take depressing pictures which are reminiscent of the Communist era). I can't think of a particular photographer that I'd like to emulate but perhaps Andre Kertesz comes closest and I'd like to achieve the tonality of Frantisek Drtikol and Anton Josef Trcka's photos but I don't know whether it has anything to do with the type of film they were shooting. By the way, I haven't been able to find what the filter factor would be for a cyan 44a. Thanks again - Phil Lamerton >Thanks for all the advice received. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Thanks again - Phil Lamerton Anton Josef Trcka printed in platinum and therefore used large format cameras. Frantisek Drtikol shot in studio as well and problably used large format as well. Most of his images look to be contact prints. I would recommend Ilford FP4+ and D-23. No filtraction is necessary. Just print the images to a nice, warm paper such as Multigrade FB Warmtone or perhaps Bergger CB-Art Warm Tone. == John - Photographer & Webmaster www.puresilver.org - www.xs750.net > > -- > > pirwin@ktb.net [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > photos but I don't know whether it has anything to do with the type of > film they were shooting. Not really. Just use good film and strive to get the best results you can. > By the way, I haven't been able to find what the filter factor would be > for a cyan 44a. > > Thanks again - Phil Lamerton > I'm not entirely certain about the exact type of image I'd like to end > up with (this will be my first trip to Eastern Europe) but I'd like to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > will be difficult to come across anybody who isn't dressed like a > typical Westerner, these days). Panchromatic film will be correct for the 1930s stuff. Some of Andre Kertesz's earliest works looks like it was taken on plates which were mostly sensitive to blue, but the ones from the 1930s look panchromatic to me. For many people the most familiar images of the 1930s are from old B&W movies, and it is interesting to note that 1930s B&W movies were all on panchro film. The transition to sound films in the late 1920s required hissy Klieg lights to be replaced by tungsten lights which were rich in red and required panchromatic film to make efficient use of the light. I'm pretty certain that the rapid rise in popularity of panchromatic film for still cameras had a lot to do with people seeing improved colour rendering in the cinema. > By the way, I haven't been able to find what the filter factor would be > for a cyan 44a. Filter factor for the #44A minus-red should be 3 for daylight and 5 for tungsten for most panchromatic films. A minus-red filter or ortho film has the somewhat counter-intuitive effect of drawing attention to red. Faces will often look rougher, which is sometimes desired in male portraiture. Red bricks will come out darker than one might expect and this may show patterns in brickwork more clearly than colour film would. Red in flags, uniforms and other clothing may be reproduced as almost black and show up rather better than if red were reproduced as a light shade of gray. But, unless you know that you want a contrast filter to show reds as dark, you are best off using panchromatic film with either no filter, a yellow #8(K2) or a panchromatic green #11 (X1) correction filter. Strong contrast filters can sometimes have a different effect than the one you were planning on. If you are on vacation, you won't be able to easily retake the picture, so if you do use a filter, take another picture without the filter at the same time. Peter. Signaturepirwin@ktb.net This 'retro look' thing is a bunch of marketing hooey. Pay no attention to it. > > I'm not entirely certain about the exact type of image I'd like to end > > up with (this will be my first trip to Eastern Europe) but I'd like to [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Peter. > I would appreciate advice on filters to use with this > "ortho-panchromatic" film. > Thanks - Phil Lamerton "The current crop of Adox related films [EFKE] have the same properties and difficulties. Once mastered, they give excellent sharpness and good tonality, but in my experience the smoothness of tones is lacking. But the grain is fine with a hint of coarseness, that give images a kind of gritty look, like Tri-X but with much finer grain." http://www.imx.nl/photosite/technical/bwstateofart.html |
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