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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2006

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UC - 23 Jan 2006 14:49 GMT
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801871670/qid=1138027697/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104
-1744125-0444702?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

Scott W - 23 Jan 2006 17:04 GMT
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801871670/qid=1138027697/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104
-1744125-0444702?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

>From the few pages I read I think the book has a lot to offer.

It speaks in a way to something that I have been giving thought to for
some time now. There seems to be two broad groups of photographers,
those who set out to take a pretty photo and those who wish to capture
the life and times around them.

The idea of spontaneous witness would seem to not only be foreign to
many on the photography news groups but also viewed with a degree of
disdain.  

Scott
UC - 23 Jan 2006 17:47 GMT
Amazingly, the author, as I have just found out, lives in the same city
that I do.

I have to get together with her. She may be the ex-wife of a former
philosophy professor of mine, Richard Garner.

Anyway, she points out exactly the same thing that I have been saying:
photographers have been moving farther and farther away from recording
and trying to be 'artists'. Since photography is not and cannot be art
(n the same sense that painting and sculpture are), this has resulted
in a bunch of crap being produced by deluded morons who think they are
artists, all under the thumbs of the zonazis, who dominate the
educational system.

In the first chapter of my own book, I cover this.

I am very surprised, thouh, that she covers primarily American
photographers, because the humanist/reportage approach was primarily a
European one, made possible largely by the widespread acceptance and
adoption of the Leica by the German and F_____ intelligentia, many of
whom found themselves unemployed after 1929.

The comparative importance of Americans in this trend was rather small,
in my opinion. A few may have made their way to the US after Hitler's
seizure of power, (Eisenstadt comes to mind) but by no means did most.
Leni Riefenstahl's Will to Power and Olympia actually have more in
common with the still photography of the period than with the
motion-picture. A collection of stills from Olympia has been published,
which will make this abundantly clear.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/382281945X/qid=1138038438/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2
_1/104-1744125-0444702?s=books&v=glance&n=283155


> > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801871670/qid=1138027697/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104
-1744125-0444702?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Scott
Jean-David Beyer - 23 Jan 2006 18:09 GMT
> Amazingly, the author, as I have just found out, lives in the same city
> that I do.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> artists, all under the thumbs of the zonazis, who dominate the
> educational system.

Have you ever read "Naturalistic Photography For Students Of The Art" third
edition, by Peter Henry Emerson? In Book I (about 190 pages), he discusses
art and why photography can never be one.

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UC - 23 Jan 2006 18:10 GMT
She mentions that work in her book, the first chapter of which I looked
at last night at B&N.

> > Amazingly, the author, as I have just found out, lives in the same city
> > that I do.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
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Keith Tapscott - 23 Jan 2006 18:03 GMT
I noticed that the author, Gretchen Garner lives in Columbus Ohio, do you
know her?

> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801871670/qid=1138027697/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104
-1744125-0444702?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
UC - 23 Jan 2006 18:09 GMT
> I noticed that the author, Gretchen Garner lives in Columbus Ohio, do you
> know her?

See my last post.

> > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801871670/qid=1138027697/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104
-1744125-0444702?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
ujazz32@hotmail.com - 24 Jan 2006 04:38 GMT
> > I noticed that the author, Gretchen Garner lives in Columbus Ohio, do you
> > know her?
>
> See my last post.
>
> > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801871670/qid=1138027697/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104
-1744125-0444702?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

" There seems to be two broad groups of photographers,
those who set out to take a pretty photo and those who wish to capture
the life and times around them."

Is it inconceivable that one could set out to capture the life and
times around them in a way that communicates one's appreciation for,
and recognition of the beauty of the world around them? I don't see the
two as mutually exclusive.

Jay
Scott W - 24 Jan 2006 06:28 GMT
> Is it inconceivable that one could set out to capture the life and
> times around them in a way that communicates one's appreciation for,
> and recognition of the beauty of the world around them? I don't see the
> two as mutually exclusive.

I agree, if you go out to capture the life and time around you, you
should see the beauty and try to capture that.

But does it work the other way, if a photographer goes out trying to
make a pretty photograph, even one that is aesthetically pleasing, will
he or she automatically capture anything of the life and times around
them, looking at many photos I would say not.  There is nothing wrong
with taking photographs who's sole purpose is to look good, but
photography is a tool that can do more.

Instead of capturing the life and times around them many photographers
would rather photograph that one perfect blade of grass with a perfect
drop of dew refracting the morning light just so.  Or a forest covered
in snow with sunlight filtering down through a light fog.  There is
nothing wrong with these kinds of photos, but there is no sense of
place and time.

The part that is a shame is that I get the feeling that there are some
photographers who are so frightened that they might take a photograph
that looks like a snapshot that they miss photographing what is
important around them.  

Scott
ujazz32@hotmail.com - 24 Jan 2006 09:36 GMT
"The part that is a shame is that I get the feeling that there are some

photographers who are so frightened that they might take a photograph
that looks like a snapshot that they miss photographing what is
important around them. "

I guess the question is; important to whom? It seems that you're
questioning the sincerity with which some photographers image the world
around them, and castigating those who sink so low as to make a pretty
picture, or even aknowledge aesthetics. I would argue that there is
nothing of inherent value in a purely documentary image void of
aesthetic consideration. It seems to me that one extreme is no better
than the other.

Jay
BernieM - 24 Jan 2006 10:03 GMT
> "The part that is a shame is that I get the feeling that there are some
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Jay

I agree.

>Instead of capturing the life and times around them many photographers
>would rather photograph that one perfect blade of grass.

In that instant that blade of grass is "life" and "times" ... nothing else
exists.

BernieM
Jean-David Beyer - 24 Jan 2006 11:49 GMT
Scott W wrote (in part):

> Instead of capturing the life and times around them many photographers
> would rather photograph that one perfect blade of grass with a perfect
> drop of dew refracting the morning light just so.  Or a forest covered in
> snow with sunlight filtering down through a light fog.  There is nothing
> wrong with these kinds of photos, but there is no sense of place and
> time.

Some times, perhaps, the photographer wants the eternal, not the present.
And that is tricky with a medium as "real" as photography. That is why, for
example, photographs of pretty women with clothes on look dated (not
necessarily the worse for that), whereas a well done nude can be more
eternal and undated. At least at the time. Of course, I meant "less dated"
here, as the way people look, smile, etc., does change over time anyway.

> The part that is a shame is that I get the feeling that there are some
> photographers who are so frightened that they might take a photograph
> that looks like a snapshot that they miss photographing what is important
> around them.

Gary Winogrand sure did not worry that his images might look like
snap-shots. In some circles, he is regarded as a great photographer.

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Scott W - 24 Jan 2006 14:43 GMT
> Scott W wrote (in part):
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Gary Winogrand sure did not worry that his images might look like
> snap-shots. In some circles, he is regarded as a great photographer.

I will refer you to the link for the book that UC provided in his
original post, the author speaks more elegantly to this issue then I
can.

I have known people who ended up with a lifetime of photographs that
missed capturing anything at all that would give a sense of time or
culture.  I inherited my grandmother's photographic collection when
she pasted away, she took large number of photos during the 50s and
60s. She was and advanced amateur and was considered to be a good
photographer.   And whereas her photos are well enough composed you can
go through just about the whole collection and not see any clue as to
when they were taken.  They were all landscapes and there are no
people, cars or anything else dealing with people in any of them.  Now
I love looking at old photos, and when I received the collection, all
slides BTW, I looked forward to seeing life through her eyes, what I
got was devoid of any real interest.

To a large extent I use the missed photographs that I did not take 30
years ago as a guild for what I photograph today.  I also look at what
my parents missed photographing in their life, the photographs that
would have real value to me today but at the time were not deemed
important enough to be worth a photo.

There are parts of life that seem so ordinary at the time that people
don't even think to take a photograph of it.  As just one example
part of my life growing up was when the TV stopped working we would
remove all of the tubes and take the bunch to the local hardware store.
There we would one by one put them in the tube tester, once the bad
tube was found the clerk in the store would go to the shelves an get us
a new tube.   Now a photo of someone checking a bag full of tubes at
the time would have seemed silly and boring, but it is a slice of life
that I would have loved to have had captured and have now.

Now photos of a forest in the fog are a easy to find, and they are
quite nice to look at, as an example
http://search.pbase.com/search?q=forest+fog&begin=10

But think about this, photography is very much like a time machine, it
lets us go back and get glimpses of the past.  Imagine you have 10
minutes to use a time machine that lets you view the past on a given
date, say to the time when you were 10 years old.  You can wander
around and view the world frozen in time what would you look at?  I
would want to look at the people I knew and are gone.  I would want to
look at the house I grew up in.  I would want to look at the old stores
I use to go to as a kid.  I would look at the drive-in we used to go
to.  I would look at the people, the cars and the city, oh and that
tube tester.

There is nothing wrong with photographing forest in the fog with the
sunlight coming though just right, I do it myself.  But these are in
some ways the easy shots.  You see something that is beautiful, where
the play of light looks just right and you capture it.  What is harder
and for me personally more important is to try and capture want is
around me now that will be interesting 10, 20 or 100 years from now.
There is nothing that says you can't take both kinds of photos.

Scott
UC - 24 Jan 2006 15:11 GMT
I have been writing about this here and in other forums for quite some
time. It is an extremely unpopular stance to take today. My own work of
late has been aimed squarely at documenting the old manufacturing sites
in my home town, and some of the people I find in the areas where these
factories used to be.

It's MUCH harder to do this than to find a pretty scene, and I don't
mean physically difficult. It's harder to distill the essence of a
situation into what HCB called the 'decisive moment', a phrase often
misunderstood. What he meant was a photo that captures enough of the
surroundings that what is happening or about to happen can be
understood.

I think the best use of photography lies precisely in capturing the
essence of the moment. To me this is so obvious that I have great deal
of difficulty understanding the dismissal of it, and the condescension
on the part of the large-format zonazis, for whom anything other than a
20 x 24 inch toned zoan cistern print of a waterfall is a meaningless
piece of crap.

If these people can get their heads out of their rectums for a
nanosecond, they will see that their so-called 'fine-art' prints will
be forgotten almost instantly, whereas the capture of life's sometimes
most mundane moments creates irreplaceable treasures.

> > Scott W wrote (in part):
> >
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
>
> Scott
Scott W - 24 Jan 2006 16:25 GMT
> I have been writing about this here and in other forums for quite some
> time. It is an extremely unpopular stance to take today. My own work of
> late has been aimed squarely at documenting the old manufacturing sites
> in my home town, and some of the people I find in the areas where these
> factories used to be.
Some of your ideas have merit, but your people skills are shall we say
a bit on the weak side.

Scott
UC - 24 Jan 2006 16:35 GMT
> > I have been writing about this here and in other forums for quite some
> > time. It is an extremely unpopular stance to take today. My own work of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Some of your ideas have merit, but your people skills are shall we say
> a bit on the weak side.

Such is life. Not everyone has the same set of skills.

I'm VERY single. Does that give you a clue?

> Scott
Scott W - 24 Jan 2006 17:48 GMT
> I'm VERY single. Does that give you a clue?
I would have been surprised if it were otherwise.

Scott
John - 25 Jan 2006 08:35 GMT
>Some of your ideas have merit, but your people skills are shall we say
>a bit on the weak side.
>
>Scott

If we're being polite than I would say "neglected" is closer to the
mark. Weak implie a natural failing. Neglected clarifies that one is
aware of this failing and will do nothing about it.

==
        John - Photographer & Webmaster
     www.puresilver.org - www.xs750.net
UC - 25 Jan 2006 14:08 GMT
All my life I've been known as a ruthelessly honest person. I am also
not easily fooled, coerced, or intimidated.

On my first writing assignment in English class in my freshman year at
college, I used the spelling 'judgement'. It came back with a big red
line through it, and the words BRITISH SPELLING in bright red letters.
I had to show the instructor, in an AMERICAN dictionary, that the
spelling 'judgement'. is an alternative American spelling for
'judgment'. I MADE her withdraw the comment and change my grade.

Ever since, I have used the spelling 'judgement' out of spite. The
spelling 'judgment' just looks stupid to me. What English sound is made
by 'dgm'? What other English words have three consonants in a row?

Some people are a bit too haughty for their own good. They need to be
taken down a notch..or two...or three..or four...

> >Some of your ideas have merit, but your people skills are shall we say
> >a bit on the weak side.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>          John - Photographer & Webmaster
>       www.puresilver.org - www.xs750.net
bjw@mambo.ucolick.org - 03 Feb 2006 06:11 GMT
> Ever since, I have used the spelling 'judgement' out of spite. The
> spelling 'judgment' just looks stupid to me. What English sound is made
> by 'dgm'? What other English words have three consonants in a row?

"English" for one.  "Contrast."  And anything ending in -tch, -rch, or
-nch.  "Diphthong" and "catchment" have four.  There's gotta be one
with five around here somewhere.

A photographer like Nan Goldin represents a personal (to the point of
confessional) and self-conscious style that would be unfamiliar to a
previous generation of photojournalistic photographers, like the Magnum
group.  (I mean "photojournalistic style photographers whose works also
get exhibited in galleries," whether or not either they or Goldin are
making art, reportage, or apple pies.)  But Goldin's work is still very
much documentary in presentation.  It's not disengaged nor is it
cool removed landscape study.

Conversely, Ansel Adams is revered as a god of landscape photography,
but some of the works that brought him to prominence were made with a
specific documentary intent, and a ideological point, to preserve the
natural settings he documented.  (Specifically for the Sierra Club's
fight to keep Yosemite from going the way of the Hetch Hetchy.)
You could say that RIchard Misrach is doing that kind of work now.

There isn't a simple division between 1. gritty true documentary, and
2. well-worked but uncognizant of the modern world, beautiful
technically accomplished landscape.  It's attractive to think that way,
and certainly I think that the latter seems more prominent in some
rec.photo groups, but it's a simplistic method.  Parts of the one have
a way of sneaking into the other.  I look forward to reading more of
that book.

Ben

P.S.  "Postscript."
Jean-David Beyer - 03 Feb 2006 13:39 GMT
>> Ever since, I have used the spelling 'judgement' out of spite. The
>> spelling 'judgment' just looks stupid to me. What English sound is made
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> -nch.  "Diphthong" and "catchment" have four.  There's gotta be one
> with five around here somewhere.

And darkroom types might be familiar with

phenolphthalein

with 5 consonants in a row.

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UC - 03 Feb 2006 14:00 GMT
> >> Ever since, I have used the spelling 'judgement' out of spite. The
> >> spelling 'judgment' just looks stupid to me. What English sound is made
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> with 5 consonants in a row.

WOW!

Of course, I am talking about the 'dg' being used by itself in
compounds, whereas the words containing it have the combination 'dge'.
THAT'S the issue.

> --
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Tom Gardner - 24 Jan 2006 16:41 GMT
>I have been writing about this here and in other forums for quite some
> time. It is an extremely unpopular stance to take today. My own work of
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> be forgotten almost instantly, whereas the capture of life's sometimes
> most mundane moments creates irreplaceable treasures.

For this work, why are you exposing film?  I'm not being a smart a.s, it
just is my thought that documentary, reporting, sports and such subjects
where content is the focus rather than vision, is the realm of digital.  Not
meaning to start a religious war but, how much "interpretation" is in your
images rather than pure documentation?  Not to say there isn't a crossover
as even Adams said that the next evolution in photography will be
electronic.  I'd bet anything that if he were around today, he'd be a
"Photo-chopper" in addition to burning silver.

Silver is used for what silver does, which is different than what CCD's do
and different than what the eye sees.  My opinion is that the craftsman uses
whatever medium at his command to best accomplish a goal so you have to
admit that you are doing more than just "documenting" things or you have WAY
too much time on your hands.  Why are you exposing film?

You want to see an old manufacturing plant?  I still have leather belted
overhead shafts in my 100+ year old building, lit moodily by skylights.  I
even have ghosts!
UC - 24 Jan 2006 16:51 GMT
> >I have been writing about this here and in other forums for quite some
> > time. It is an extremely unpopular stance to take today. My own work of
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> just is my thought that documentary, reporting, sports and such subjects
> where content is the focus rather than vision, is the realm of digital.

HUH? I don't understand you at all. I have a camera, film, and
darkroom, and  I know how to use them. I want my images to last, so I
shoot B&W.

> Not
> meaning to start a religious war but, how much "interpretation" is in your
> images rather than pure documentation?

Some. I want to do this project on a long-term basis. No-one else would
do it in exactly the same way.

> Not to say there isn't a crossover
> as even Adams said that the next evolution in photography will be
> electronic.  I'd bet anything that if he were around today, he'd be a
> "Photo-chopper" in addition to burning silver.

What difference does it make to someone 100 years from now if the print
he holds was made with a negative or from a file?

> Silver is used for what silver does, which is different than what CCD's do
> and different than what the eye sees.  My opinion is that the craftsman uses
> whatever medium at his command to best accomplish a goal so you have to
> admit that you are doing more than just "documenting" things or you have WAY
> too much time on your hands.  Why are you exposing film?

See above. I like film. I'm good at it. I'm used to it. I want them to
keep making it. I want others to keep using it.

> You want to see an old manufacturing plant?  I still have leather belted
> overhead shafts in my 100+ year old building, lit moodily by skylights.  I
> even have ghosts!
ujazz32@hotmail.com - 24 Jan 2006 18:02 GMT
> > >I have been writing about this here and in other forums for quite some
> > > time. It is an extremely unpopular stance to take today. My own work of
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> > overhead shafts in my 100+ year old building, lit moodily by skylights.  I
> > even have ghosts!

Mike, your insistence that things are as you decree them to be can be
amusing when others take you seriously, and become enflamed, but mostly
it's just childish and boring. It is obvious that you've read somewhere
an argument that photography isn't art, and have decided to champion
that position, probably because you feel that it distinguishes you in
some way. You really are very transparent, and not as controversial as
you pretend. Good luck with your delapidated factory project; it's been
done to death, but maybe your sense of time and place will distinguish
your work from the crowd.

Jay
Tom Gardner - 24 Jan 2006 18:24 GMT
> HUH? I don't understand you at all. I have a camera, film, and
> darkroom, and  I know how to use them. I want my images to last, so I
> shoot B&W.

So, it's the medium at your command, but you have to admit there is a big
percentage of interpretation in your work.  You're "using" film for the
properties of film and you're in your comfort zone.  Interesting point about
longevity of images, there's no way to really archive digital.

Understand that from my perspective, I have to use digital images daily to
document and communicate to my customers and my film is strictly delegated
to vision and interpretation...just a different philosophy and for me,
different boxes.   I can't knock the zone-heads or the byte-heads or anybody
else.  I envy anybody that's on a path.  My point is that your work is still
mostly in your head where pure documentation is mostly just the finished
image.
UC - 24 Jan 2006 18:27 GMT
'Interpretation' in my case is minimal.

Silver prints are just about the longest-lived print media available.

I'll be glad to send you some things I shot Saturday. Scans of B&W
prints.

> > HUH? I don't understand you at all. I have a camera, film, and
> > darkroom, and  I know how to use them. I want my images to last, so I
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> mostly in your head where pure documentation is mostly just the finished
> image.
Tom Gardner - 24 Jan 2006 18:34 GMT
> 'Interpretation' in my case is minimal.

I don't believe you!

> Silver prints are just about the longest-lived print media available.
>
> I'll be glad to send you some things I shot Saturday. Scans of B&W
> prints.

Please!
UC - 24 Jan 2006 21:07 GMT
Check your e-mail.

> > 'Interpretation' in my case is minimal.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Please!
UC - 25 Jan 2006 16:36 GMT
I sent them. Comments?

> > 'Interpretation' in my case is minimal.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Please!
ujazz32@hotmail.com - 25 Jan 2006 23:25 GMT
"What other English words have three consonants in a row? "

"English", "words", "three", and "consonants", to list a few.

Jay
UC - 26 Jan 2006 00:02 GMT
> "What other English words have three consonants in a row? "
>
> "English", "words", "three", and "consonants", to list a few.
>
> Jay

But 'dgm' is not the same thing. The 'e' is necessary to soften the
'dg'. We don't have 'managment', now do we?
dschneller@sympatico.ca - 31 Jan 2006 20:48 GMT
> > "What other English words have three consonants in a row? "
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> But 'dgm' is not the same thing. The 'e' is necessary to soften the
> 'dg'. We don't have 'managment', now do we?

abridgment,  acknowledgment,  judgment,  lodgment...
UC - 31 Jan 2006 20:54 GMT
Nope:

abridgement,  acknowledgement,  judgement,  lodgement...

dschnel...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> > > "What other English words have three consonants in a row? "
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> abridgment,  acknowledgment,  judgment,  lodgment...
dschneller@sympatico.ca - 31 Jan 2006 21:14 GMT
For U.K. spelling you would be correct, for U.S. conventions the 'e'
appears to be dropped.  Don't ask me why, I prefer to spell them with
an 'e' as well.  Perhaps you should have distinguished between American
English and the ROTW.

> Nope:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> >
> > abridgment,  acknowledgment,  judgment,  lodgment...
UC - 31 Jan 2006 21:51 GMT
American spelling was probably influenced by newspapers, who may have
come up with these to save space.

> For U.K. spelling you would be correct, for U.S. conventions the 'e'
> appears to be dropped.  Don't ask me why, I prefer to spell them with
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> > >
> > > abridgment,  acknowledgment,  judgment,  lodgment...
John - 25 Jan 2006 08:30 GMT
>For this work, why are you exposing film?  I'm not being a smart a.s, it
>just is my thought that documentary, reporting, sports and such subjects
>where content is the focus rather than vision, is the realm of digital.

???? The digital realm is right in front of you. It's called a
"computer".

==
        John - Photographer & Webmaster
     www.puresilver.org - www.xs750.net
UC - 24 Jan 2006 16:41 GMT
> Scott W wrote (in part):
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Some times, perhaps, the photographer wants the eternal, not the present.

Impossible. Photography is not an d cannot be art. It is directly
connected with this or that particular time and place. Thinking
otherwise leads to crappy photos in an attempt to do the impossible.
Photography's 'hereness' and 'nowness' should be celebrated, not fought
against.

> And that is tricky with a medium as "real" as photography.

It's not 'tricky', but impossible.

> That is why, for
> example, photographs of pretty women with clothes on look dated (not
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>  /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey    http://counter.li.org
>  ^^-^^ 06:45:00 up 3 days, 22:12, 6 users, load average: 4.16, 4.18, 4.16
UC - 24 Jan 2006 14:01 GMT
> > > I noticed that the author, Gretchen Garner lives in Columbus Ohio, do you
> > > know her?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> and recognition of the beauty of the world around them? I don't see the
> two as mutually exclusive.

They tend to be. It requires a different approach and mind-set.

> Jay
 
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