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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2006

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frustration with condensers

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Mike - 13 Jan 2006 15:33 GMT
Any of you get frustrated with keeping spots, lines, and specs clear when
using a condenser?

I'm using an old Omega DII condenser for 4x5.  The original glass wasn't
perfect.  I found replacements on eBay and ended up using one piece from
each set after trial and error.  However depending on the exact focus, I
still get some lines/spots that show up.  Most the time this isn't a
problem unless the enlarger height and focus is at some exact spot.  

It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head....
UC - 13 Jan 2006 15:38 GMT
I use an Ilford anti-static cloth on the negatives, which cleans them
up really well. I favour glassless carriers. If you're using a glass
carrier, it's somehwat more difficult.

Are you talking about spots from dust on the condensers? Yes, they must
be kept clean, but at normal lens apertures any spots on the condensers
are very far out of foucs.

> Any of you get frustrated with keeping spots, lines, and specs clear when
> using a condenser?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head....
Mike - 13 Jan 2006 15:44 GMT
> I use an Ilford anti-static cloth on the negatives, which cleans them
> up really well. I favour glassless carriers. If you're using a glass
> carrier, it's somehwat more difficult.

Not talking about spots on negatives

> Are you talking about spots from dust on the condensers? Yes, they must
> be kept clean, but at normal lens apertures any spots on the condensers
> are very far out of foucs.

Not for me.  Lines and spots are in focus enough to really ruin prints.

Come think of it, I think this has only been a problem for me when making
a 2x enlargement of a 4x5 negative (8x10).  Anything bigger and everything
goes out of focus.  Also when I raise the condensers to take the negative
out, they go out of focus too.  Maybe I can build some kind of spacer to
keep the bottom condenser piece raised from the negative a bit??  Because
right now, the bottom glass is very near the negative and this is where
the focus is!  Why did they do this?!
Nicholas O. Lindan - 13 Jan 2006 19:39 GMT
> the bottom glass is very near the negative and this is where
> the focus is!

To keep the size of the condensers manageable.  The light
from the condensers exits in a cone that comes to a 'focus'
on the rear element of the enlarger lens.

If the condensers were 1 inch above then they would have to be
17% larger.  To get the mass of the condenser one cubes the
linear dimension: 1.17^3 = 1.6.  In fact the whole lamphouse
would be 1.6x as heavy (and at a minimum 60% more expensive)
than one where the bottom condenser sits just above the negative.

The 17% comes from ratioing the present distance from the
condensers to the lens ~6 inches, by the new distance ~7".

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Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
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Lloyd Erlick - 01 Feb 2006 14:25 GMT
>> I use an Ilford anti-static cloth on the negatives, which cleans them
>> up really well. I favour glassless carriers. If you're using a glass
>> carrier, it's somehwat more difficult.
>
>Not talking about spots on negatives

February 1, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

Although the discussion is about condensers
rather than negatives or carriers, I have to
remark about glass negative carriers.

For many years (many) I used glassless
carriers. My reason was the supposed ease of
operation. Laziness doesn't really even
qualify as a reason, because I had never
tried glass carriers so I could not say which
was easier or 'lazier'.

Well, after I finally slipped the glass
inserts into my negative carrier and made
some prints, I realized the prints were
better. Glass negative carriers help one make
better prints. Period. The reason is negative
flatness. The results are plainly visible in
prints; the corners are noticeably sharper
when glass a carrier is used. It saddens me
to say this, because I have years of prints
made glasses. But it is true.

It is accurate to say my reluctance to try
the glass carrier was based on laziness. I
believed the extra four surfaces would be a
nightmare of dust and specks and print
spotting.

But no nightmare ensued when I finally tried
glass. I made sure the glass inserts were
clean before I put them in. One was
anti-Newton ring glass, and both were brand
new, so pretty clean. In any case, cleaning
them was no problem, and took only a moment.
Since they are just glass, cleaning in
distilled water would be simple where
necessary. The glasses are plain flat
surfaces, so they're far easier and quicker
than cleaning a lens, at any rate, although
even that is hardly an onerous task. And like
a lens -- especially a nice house-trained
enlarger lens -- it will stay clean. Yes we
can mess it up, but how often does that
happen, even for slobs? I find cleaning the
glass carrier is extremely easy with one of
those cloths they include with a pair of
eyeglasses, and a bit of breath on the glass.
No spit, please.

So the glass negative carrier is really
extremely little more work than glassless,
but it has a definite payoff in print
improvement.

We have Bob Saloman to thank for persisting
in pushing the notion of glass negative
carriers. I read his exhortations a long time
before I tried.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Jean-David Beyer - 13 Jan 2006 17:04 GMT
> Any of you get frustrated with keeping spots, lines, and specs clear when
> using a condenser?

No.

> I'm using an old Omega DII condenser for 4x5.  The original glass wasn't
> perfect.  I found replacements on eBay and ended up using one piece from
> each set after trial and error.  However depending on the exact focus, I
> still get some lines/spots that show up.  Most the time this isn't a
> problem unless the enlarger height and focus is at some exact spot.  

I never owned an Omega. I used a B-22 in a night-school class once, and that
was junk. But I have seen D-Series enlargers from them in other people's
darkrooms, and they seem to be well made. I use a Beseler 45-MCRX. I have
more trouble keeping the negatives clean than the condensers. But a long
time ago, I got a Zone VI high voltage electrozapper brush (forget its exact
name), and that pretty much fixes that except for C-41 in 35mm format, where
I seem to get dust in the emulsion, and nothing will fix that. I do not
bother to process C-41 in 35mm format anymore, so that problem is fixed. A
1-hour lab had the same trouble with C-41 in 35mm size, so I take the stuff
to a real lab. Unfortunately there were just two around here, and both have
closed, put out of business by digital cameras an picture cellphones. There
is still a good lab in New Jersey somewhere, but it is too much trouble to
go there.

> It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head....

I have an Aristo D2-HI and a Zone VI 2-color head. They work, although the
Zone VI is not really bright enough, and the regulator for the green tube is
not well engineered (takes forever for the green tube to warm up enough to
regulate, and there is interaction between the green and blue. I think they
do not have heaters for the tubes or, if they do, the one for the green tube
is not close enough. Also, I doubt they have color filters in front of the
detectors for the tubes, and the green detector can see the blue tube.).

But diffuse light sourse is not the miracle that Fred Picker had always
claimed. I happen to use them because that way, a contact print and an
enlargement print with the same contrast, and I value that. Another thing is
that if you use a condenser head light source, you must develop the film to
a lower contrast index, which would be no big deal, but it does reduce your
effective film speed somewhat (usually around 1/3 stop).

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Lloyd Erlick - 01 Feb 2006 14:32 GMT
>fixes that except for C-41 in 35mm format, where
>I seem to get dust in the emulsion, and nothing will fix that. I do not
>bother to process C-41 in 35mm format anymore, so that problem is fixed.

February 1, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

When I tried the black and white C-41 films,
I found the same problem. I never processed
them myself, but I could not find a lab that
could give me negs free of specks when
enlarged to 16x20. The negs always looked
fine to the eye, but enlargements always
showed specks. I solved my problem the same
way you did.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

John - 13 Jan 2006 18:08 GMT
>It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head....

Or even just a regular Aristo head. Both work well with good, graded
papers.

John
Mike - 13 Jan 2006 19:15 GMT
>>It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head....
>
> Or even just a regular Aristo head. Both work well with good, graded
> papers.

How do the old heads work with VC paper?  I rely on VC paper to compensate
for my "sloppy" work.  In other words, my process isn't fine-tuned to
create a negative that always prints right at Grade 2.

What puzzles me is that the condenser glass is nearly flush with the
negative.  Hence the focus will capture any flaws in the glass.  If the
glass was even an inch away from the negative, this wouldn't be a problem.
Jean-David Beyer - 13 Jan 2006 20:18 GMT
>>>It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head....
>>
>>Or even just a regular Aristo head. Both work well with good, graded
>>papers.
>
> How do the old heads work with VC paper?

It depends on just what color tube you have. The one in my D2-HI looks white
to mey eye. I can use Kodak polycontrast acetate filters in the filter
drawer of my 45MCRX, but I also put in a fairly strong yellow filter (#12, I
think, but maybe #15, possibly just a CC60Y). I have not done this in a long
time. Just one more thing to dust off before making a print, because it is
so close to the negative.

>  I rely on VC paper to compensate
> for my "sloppy" work.  In other words, my process isn't fine-tuned to
> create a negative that always prints right at Grade 2.

Even Ansel Adams was seen purching Agfa Brovira Grade 6 paper on at least
one occasion. Maybe he could not develop the negative enough to get the
contrast he wanted. Or maybe he was buying it for a friend. That I do not know.

> What puzzles me is that the condenser glass is nearly flush with the
> negative.  Hence the focus will capture any flaws in the glass.  If the
> glass was even an inch away from the negative, this wouldn't be a problem.

On the Beseler, the glass is about 1/8 to 1/4 inch away from the negative,
so that smoothes it out somewhat. I do not notice any flaws in the glass,
such as bubbles or striations visible to the naked eye. There are tiny chips
at the edges, but this does not seem to matter.

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Peter Chant - 13 Jan 2006 20:46 GMT
> Even Ansel Adams was seen purching Agfa Brovira Grade 6 paper on at least
> one occasion. Maybe he could not develop the negative enough to get the
> contrast he wanted. Or maybe he was buying it for a friend. That I do not
> know.

Just the thought of Mr Adams furtively sneaking into the shop with wearing
dark glasses...

...its for a friend.

!

;-)

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John - 14 Jan 2006 06:03 GMT
>> Or even just a regular Aristo head. Both work well with good, graded
>> papers.
>
>How do the old heads work with VC paper?  

I added a 20CC Yelow gel to my Aristo head as the light output made
for extremely short exposures and the contrast was about G3.5. It
subsequently lost about 1.5 stops of light and the contrast dropped to
G3.0 which worked fine for my needs generally.

>I rely on VC paper to compensate
>for my "sloppy" work.  In other words, my process isn't fine-tuned to
>create a negative that always prints right at Grade 2.

FWIW, I've rarely printed on a G2 that I liked. I prefer the slightly
better shadow contrasts produced on a G3.

>What puzzles me is that the condenser glass is nearly flush with the
>negative.

You probably have enough room to add a piece of diffusion glass such
as white translucent acrylic or even simply a piece of etched glass
such as the non-glare glass used in framing.

> Hence the focus will capture any flaws in the glass.  If the
>glass was even an inch away from the negative, this wouldn't be a problem.

If you have enother 1/8th inch you can add in a spacer of some sort.
Are you running very high apertures ? I stopped doing this some time
ago myself and have adjusted all of my enlargers to work at 2 stops
down from wide open by simply changing the bulbs out for lower output
types.

John

P.S. Another "trick" I did with the D2V w/condensers was to polish the
lamp-house. This effectively made the light being projected a little
softer. I just used some sulfuric to remove the finish and then
polished it with steel wool.
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 14 Jan 2006 10:59 GMT
> What puzzles me is that the condenser glass is nearly flush
> with the negative.  Hence the focus will capture any flaws in
> the glass.  If the glass was even an inch away from the
> negative, this wouldn't be a problem.

  Glad you mentioned that. I've a B8. The condensers have
not been checked for years. I also make low diameter enlargements.
One trick would be to use a faster stop and thus a more shallow
depth of field. Very short exposure times may result. Dan
Jean-David Beyer - 14 Jan 2006 11:08 GMT
>>What puzzles me is that the condenser glass is nearly flush
>>with the negative.  Hence the focus will capture any flaws in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> One trick would be to use a faster stop and thus a more shallow
> depth of field. Very short exposure times may result. Dan

I forget what I was doing, but making 8x10 prints from 4x5 negatives was
probably it. And exposure times were too short. I stuck a ND 1 (10x) filter
in the filter drawer along with everything else, and that increased the
exposure time enough for convenient processing. With my present Zone VI VC
cold light head, I have the opposite problem: insufficient brightness, so I
need to use f/5.6 to f/8 on my 180mm f/5.6 enlarging lens.

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Robert Feinman - 14 Jan 2006 15:24 GMT
> Any of you get frustrated with keeping spots, lines, and specs clear when
> using a condenser?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head....

Perhaps you are using too small an aperture. This will increase the
depth of focus making the lower surface of the condenser in focus.
For small enlargements there is a need to do this because the
brightness makes for short exposures. You might try to insert some
filters into the filter draw to cut the light intensity, or try
a dimmer enlarger bulb. Keep the f-stop at 5.6 or 8 and see if this
helps.

Signature

Robert D Feinman
Landscapes, Cityscapes and Panoramic Photographs
http://robertdfeinman.com
mail: robert.feinman@gmail.com

Mike - 15 Jan 2006 21:41 GMT
I've got my 3rd set of 6.5" condensers on the way.  These were described
as "like new" condition.  Sigh.  We'll see...otherwise I'm plopping down
the cash for a Cold Light!

> Any of you get frustrated with keeping spots, lines, and specs clear when
> using a condenser?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head....
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 15 Jan 2006 22:39 GMT
> I've got my 3rd set of 6.5" condensers on the way.

 My B-8 is a 6 x 9 version of your D. I've given that bottom
surface some thought.
 One, as you've suggested raise the condensers and/or space
the entire assembly up-wards some small fraction of an inch.
 Two, with-in the assembly, at bottom, place a disc of diffusing
material. Some thin plastic or glass should do.
  Three, use a longer than normal focal length lens. I use a 105
with less than 6 x 9 negatives to lift the enlarger higher
on the girders; more head room and I think less
depth of field at the negative stage. Dan
Lloyd Erlick - 01 Feb 2006 14:03 GMT
>It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head....

February 1, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

When I did this I was amazed and delighted. I
doubt you will regret the move. Even better
would be the Aristo VC light and Metrolux
controller. But the plain light is just fine.
I predict you'll wonder why you didn't do it
years ago.

(I suppose I should declare my own biases --
I'm a portraitist, so you could say I'm in
love with skin tones and tonality and shadows
full of meaning ... Maybe people who like
harsh contrast and soot and chalk and Bill
Brandt might like condensers better.
Although, frankly, if I liked soot and chalk
I might still prefer an Aristo light.)

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

John - 04 Feb 2006 04:54 GMT
>(I suppose I should declare my own biases --
>I'm a portraitist, so you could say I'm in
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>regards,
>--le

I guess you don't have much of a Goth clientele ;>)

==
        John - Photographer & Webmaster
     www.puresilver.org - www.xs750.net
UC - 04 Feb 2006 19:50 GMT
> >It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head....
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Although, frankly, if I liked soot and chalk
> I might still prefer an Aristo light.)

This shows that you're an absolute moron. Condensers do not give 'soot
and chalk', any more than any other system. You simply have to develop
your film properly, and theat means LESS than the times given by the
idiotic film manufacturers.

> regards,
> --le
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> ________________________________
> --
 
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