Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2006
frustration with condensers
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Mike - 13 Jan 2006 15:33 GMT Any of you get frustrated with keeping spots, lines, and specs clear when using a condenser?
I'm using an old Omega DII condenser for 4x5. The original glass wasn't perfect. I found replacements on eBay and ended up using one piece from each set after trial and error. However depending on the exact focus, I still get some lines/spots that show up. Most the time this isn't a problem unless the enlarger height and focus is at some exact spot.
It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head....
UC - 13 Jan 2006 15:38 GMT I use an Ilford anti-static cloth on the negatives, which cleans them up really well. I favour glassless carriers. If you're using a glass carrier, it's somehwat more difficult.
Are you talking about spots from dust on the condensers? Yes, they must be kept clean, but at normal lens apertures any spots on the condensers are very far out of foucs.
> Any of you get frustrated with keeping spots, lines, and specs clear when > using a condenser? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head.... Mike - 13 Jan 2006 15:44 GMT > I use an Ilford anti-static cloth on the negatives, which cleans them > up really well. I favour glassless carriers. If you're using a glass > carrier, it's somehwat more difficult. Not talking about spots on negatives
> Are you talking about spots from dust on the condensers? Yes, they must > be kept clean, but at normal lens apertures any spots on the condensers > are very far out of foucs. Not for me. Lines and spots are in focus enough to really ruin prints.
Come think of it, I think this has only been a problem for me when making a 2x enlargement of a 4x5 negative (8x10). Anything bigger and everything goes out of focus. Also when I raise the condensers to take the negative out, they go out of focus too. Maybe I can build some kind of spacer to keep the bottom condenser piece raised from the negative a bit?? Because right now, the bottom glass is very near the negative and this is where the focus is! Why did they do this?!
Nicholas O. Lindan - 13 Jan 2006 19:39 GMT > the bottom glass is very near the negative and this is where > the focus is! To keep the size of the condensers manageable. The light from the condensers exits in a cone that comes to a 'focus' on the rear element of the enlarger lens.
If the condensers were 1 inch above then they would have to be 17% larger. To get the mass of the condenser one cubes the linear dimension: 1.17^3 = 1.6. In fact the whole lamphouse would be 1.6x as heavy (and at a minimum 60% more expensive) than one where the bottom condenser sits just above the negative.
The 17% comes from ratioing the present distance from the condensers to the lens ~6 inches, by the new distance ~7".
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Lloyd Erlick - 01 Feb 2006 14:25 GMT >> I use an Ilford anti-static cloth on the negatives, which cleans them >> up really well. I favour glassless carriers. If you're using a glass >> carrier, it's somehwat more difficult. > >Not talking about spots on negatives February 1, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,
Although the discussion is about condensers rather than negatives or carriers, I have to remark about glass negative carriers.
For many years (many) I used glassless carriers. My reason was the supposed ease of operation. Laziness doesn't really even qualify as a reason, because I had never tried glass carriers so I could not say which was easier or 'lazier'.
Well, after I finally slipped the glass inserts into my negative carrier and made some prints, I realized the prints were better. Glass negative carriers help one make better prints. Period. The reason is negative flatness. The results are plainly visible in prints; the corners are noticeably sharper when glass a carrier is used. It saddens me to say this, because I have years of prints made glasses. But it is true.
It is accurate to say my reluctance to try the glass carrier was based on laziness. I believed the extra four surfaces would be a nightmare of dust and specks and print spotting.
But no nightmare ensued when I finally tried glass. I made sure the glass inserts were clean before I put them in. One was anti-Newton ring glass, and both were brand new, so pretty clean. In any case, cleaning them was no problem, and took only a moment. Since they are just glass, cleaning in distilled water would be simple where necessary. The glasses are plain flat surfaces, so they're far easier and quicker than cleaning a lens, at any rate, although even that is hardly an onerous task. And like a lens -- especially a nice house-trained enlarger lens -- it will stay clean. Yes we can mess it up, but how often does that happen, even for slobs? I find cleaning the glass carrier is extremely easy with one of those cloths they include with a pair of eyeglasses, and a bit of breath on the glass. No spit, please.
So the glass negative carrier is really extremely little more work than glassless, but it has a definite payoff in print improvement.
We have Bob Saloman to thank for persisting in pushing the notion of glass negative carriers. I read his exhortations a long time before I tried.
regards, --le
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Jean-David Beyer - 13 Jan 2006 17:04 GMT > Any of you get frustrated with keeping spots, lines, and specs clear when > using a condenser? No.
> I'm using an old Omega DII condenser for 4x5. The original glass wasn't > perfect. I found replacements on eBay and ended up using one piece from > each set after trial and error. However depending on the exact focus, I > still get some lines/spots that show up. Most the time this isn't a > problem unless the enlarger height and focus is at some exact spot. I never owned an Omega. I used a B-22 in a night-school class once, and that was junk. But I have seen D-Series enlargers from them in other people's darkrooms, and they seem to be well made. I use a Beseler 45-MCRX. I have more trouble keeping the negatives clean than the condensers. But a long time ago, I got a Zone VI high voltage electrozapper brush (forget its exact name), and that pretty much fixes that except for C-41 in 35mm format, where I seem to get dust in the emulsion, and nothing will fix that. I do not bother to process C-41 in 35mm format anymore, so that problem is fixed. A 1-hour lab had the same trouble with C-41 in 35mm size, so I take the stuff to a real lab. Unfortunately there were just two around here, and both have closed, put out of business by digital cameras an picture cellphones. There is still a good lab in New Jersey somewhere, but it is too much trouble to go there.
> It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head.... I have an Aristo D2-HI and a Zone VI 2-color head. They work, although the Zone VI is not really bright enough, and the regulator for the green tube is not well engineered (takes forever for the green tube to warm up enough to regulate, and there is interaction between the green and blue. I think they do not have heaters for the tubes or, if they do, the one for the green tube is not close enough. Also, I doubt they have color filters in front of the detectors for the tubes, and the green detector can see the blue tube.).
But diffuse light sourse is not the miracle that Fred Picker had always claimed. I happen to use them because that way, a contact print and an enlargement print with the same contrast, and I value that. Another thing is that if you use a condenser head light source, you must develop the film to a lower contrast index, which would be no big deal, but it does reduce your effective film speed somewhat (usually around 1/3 stop).
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Lloyd Erlick - 01 Feb 2006 14:32 GMT >fixes that except for C-41 in 35mm format, where >I seem to get dust in the emulsion, and nothing will fix that. I do not >bother to process C-41 in 35mm format anymore, so that problem is fixed. February 1, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,
When I tried the black and white C-41 films, I found the same problem. I never processed them myself, but I could not find a lab that could give me negs free of specks when enlarged to 16x20. The negs always looked fine to the eye, but enlargements always showed specks. I solved my problem the same way you did.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
John - 13 Jan 2006 18:08 GMT >It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head.... Or even just a regular Aristo head. Both work well with good, graded papers.
John
Mike - 13 Jan 2006 19:15 GMT >>It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head.... > > Or even just a regular Aristo head. Both work well with good, graded > papers. How do the old heads work with VC paper? I rely on VC paper to compensate for my "sloppy" work. In other words, my process isn't fine-tuned to create a negative that always prints right at Grade 2.
What puzzles me is that the condenser glass is nearly flush with the negative. Hence the focus will capture any flaws in the glass. If the glass was even an inch away from the negative, this wouldn't be a problem.
Jean-David Beyer - 13 Jan 2006 20:18 GMT >>>It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head.... >> >>Or even just a regular Aristo head. Both work well with good, graded >>papers. > > How do the old heads work with VC paper? It depends on just what color tube you have. The one in my D2-HI looks white to mey eye. I can use Kodak polycontrast acetate filters in the filter drawer of my 45MCRX, but I also put in a fairly strong yellow filter (#12, I think, but maybe #15, possibly just a CC60Y). I have not done this in a long time. Just one more thing to dust off before making a print, because it is so close to the negative.
> I rely on VC paper to compensate > for my "sloppy" work. In other words, my process isn't fine-tuned to > create a negative that always prints right at Grade 2. Even Ansel Adams was seen purching Agfa Brovira Grade 6 paper on at least one occasion. Maybe he could not develop the negative enough to get the contrast he wanted. Or maybe he was buying it for a friend. That I do not know.
> What puzzles me is that the condenser glass is nearly flush with the > negative. Hence the focus will capture any flaws in the glass. If the > glass was even an inch away from the negative, this wouldn't be a problem. On the Beseler, the glass is about 1/8 to 1/4 inch away from the negative, so that smoothes it out somewhat. I do not notice any flaws in the glass, such as bubbles or striations visible to the naked eye. There are tiny chips at the edges, but this does not seem to matter.
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Peter Chant - 13 Jan 2006 20:46 GMT > Even Ansel Adams was seen purching Agfa Brovira Grade 6 paper on at least > one occasion. Maybe he could not develop the negative enough to get the > contrast he wanted. Or maybe he was buying it for a friend. That I do not > know. Just the thought of Mr Adams furtively sneaking into the shop with wearing dark glasses...
...its for a friend.
!
;-)
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John - 14 Jan 2006 06:03 GMT >> Or even just a regular Aristo head. Both work well with good, graded >> papers. > >How do the old heads work with VC paper? I added a 20CC Yelow gel to my Aristo head as the light output made for extremely short exposures and the contrast was about G3.5. It subsequently lost about 1.5 stops of light and the contrast dropped to G3.0 which worked fine for my needs generally.
>I rely on VC paper to compensate >for my "sloppy" work. In other words, my process isn't fine-tuned to >create a negative that always prints right at Grade 2. FWIW, I've rarely printed on a G2 that I liked. I prefer the slightly better shadow contrasts produced on a G3.
>What puzzles me is that the condenser glass is nearly flush with the >negative. You probably have enough room to add a piece of diffusion glass such as white translucent acrylic or even simply a piece of etched glass such as the non-glare glass used in framing.
> Hence the focus will capture any flaws in the glass. If the >glass was even an inch away from the negative, this wouldn't be a problem. If you have enother 1/8th inch you can add in a spacer of some sort. Are you running very high apertures ? I stopped doing this some time ago myself and have adjusted all of my enlargers to work at 2 stops down from wide open by simply changing the bulbs out for lower output types.
John
P.S. Another "trick" I did with the D2V w/condensers was to polish the lamp-house. This effectively made the light being projected a little softer. I just used some sulfuric to remove the finish and then polished it with steel wool.
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 14 Jan 2006 10:59 GMT > What puzzles me is that the condenser glass is nearly flush > with the negative. Hence the focus will capture any flaws in > the glass. If the glass was even an inch away from the > negative, this wouldn't be a problem. Glad you mentioned that. I've a B8. The condensers have not been checked for years. I also make low diameter enlargements. One trick would be to use a faster stop and thus a more shallow depth of field. Very short exposure times may result. Dan
Jean-David Beyer - 14 Jan 2006 11:08 GMT >>What puzzles me is that the condenser glass is nearly flush >>with the negative. Hence the focus will capture any flaws in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > One trick would be to use a faster stop and thus a more shallow > depth of field. Very short exposure times may result. Dan I forget what I was doing, but making 8x10 prints from 4x5 negatives was probably it. And exposure times were too short. I stuck a ND 1 (10x) filter in the filter drawer along with everything else, and that increased the exposure time enough for convenient processing. With my present Zone VI VC cold light head, I have the opposite problem: insufficient brightness, so I need to use f/5.6 to f/8 on my 180mm f/5.6 enlarging lens.
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Robert Feinman - 14 Jan 2006 15:24 GMT > Any of you get frustrated with keeping spots, lines, and specs clear when > using a condenser? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head.... Perhaps you are using too small an aperture. This will increase the depth of focus making the lower surface of the condenser in focus. For small enlargements there is a need to do this because the brightness makes for short exposures. You might try to insert some filters into the filter draw to cut the light intensity, or try a dimmer enlarger bulb. Keep the f-stop at 5.6 or 8 and see if this helps.
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Mike - 15 Jan 2006 21:41 GMT I've got my 3rd set of 6.5" condensers on the way. These were described as "like new" condition. Sigh. We'll see...otherwise I'm plopping down the cash for a Cold Light!
> Any of you get frustrated with keeping spots, lines, and specs clear when > using a condenser? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head.... dan.c.quinn@att.net - 15 Jan 2006 22:39 GMT > I've got my 3rd set of 6.5" condensers on the way. My B-8 is a 6 x 9 version of your D. I've given that bottom surface some thought. One, as you've suggested raise the condensers and/or space the entire assembly up-wards some small fraction of an inch. Two, with-in the assembly, at bottom, place a disc of diffusing material. Some thin plastic or glass should do. Three, use a longer than normal focal length lens. I use a 105 with less than 6 x 9 negatives to lift the enlarger higher on the girders; more head room and I think less depth of field at the negative stage. Dan
Lloyd Erlick - 01 Feb 2006 14:03 GMT >It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head.... February 1, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,
When I did this I was amazed and delighted. I doubt you will regret the move. Even better would be the Aristo VC light and Metrolux controller. But the plain light is just fine. I predict you'll wonder why you didn't do it years ago.
(I suppose I should declare my own biases -- I'm a portraitist, so you could say I'm in love with skin tones and tonality and shadows full of meaning ... Maybe people who like harsh contrast and soot and chalk and Bill Brandt might like condensers better. Although, frankly, if I liked soot and chalk I might still prefer an Aristo light.)
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
John - 04 Feb 2006 04:54 GMT >(I suppose I should declare my own biases -- >I'm a portraitist, so you could say I'm in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >regards, >--le I guess you don't have much of a Goth clientele ;>)
== John - Photographer & Webmaster www.puresilver.org - www.xs750.net
UC - 04 Feb 2006 19:50 GMT > >It might be time for me to plop down $300 for an Aristo V54 head.... > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Although, frankly, if I liked soot and chalk > I might still prefer an Aristo light.) This shows that you're an absolute moron. Condensers do not give 'soot and chalk', any more than any other system. You simply have to develop your film properly, and theat means LESS than the times given by the idiotic film manufacturers.
> regards, > --le [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ________________________________ > --
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