Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / January 2006

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

UC and Federal Law Violations

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
James Philopena - 12 Jan 2006 00:28 GMT
Hey Mikey, [aka Uranium Committee]

Here's something you really need to take note of.  You can - already - be
found in violation of this new federal U.S. law.  Man, all I could think
about since I read about it was how applicable to you this law is...  Now, I
will NOT discuss the constitutionality of this law.  Until it is deemed
unconstitutional, it IS the law.  Wanna be the litmus test?

Jim Philopena

Perspective:  Create an e-annoyance, go to jail By Declan McCullagh
Published: January 9, 2006, 4:00 AM PST

Annoying someone via the Internet is now a federal crime.

It's no joke. Last Thursday, President Bush signed into law a
prohibition on posting annoying Web messages or sending annoying e-mail
messages without disclosing your true identity.

In other words, it's OK to flame someone on a mailing list or in a blog
as long as you do it under your real name. Thank Congress for small
favors, I guess.

This ridiculous prohibition, which would likely imperil much of Usenet,
is buried in the so-called Violence Against Women and Department of
Justice Reauthorization Act. Criminal penalties include stiff fines and
two years in prison.

"The use of the word 'annoy' is particularly problematic," says Marv
Johnson, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union.
"What's annoying to one person may not be annoying to someone else."
It's illegal to annoy

A new federal law states that when you annoy someone on the Internet,
you must disclose your identity. Here's the relevant language.

"Whoever...utilizes any device or software that can be used to originate
telecommunications or other types of communications that are
transmitted, in whole or in part, by the Internet... without disclosing
his identity and with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass any
person...who receives the communications...shall be fined under title 18
or imprisoned not more than two years, or both."

Buried deep in the new law is Sec. 113, an innocuously titled bit called
"Preventing Cyberstalking." It rewrites existing telephone harassment
law to prohibit anyone from using the Internet "without disclosing his
identity and with intent to annoy."

To grease the rails for this idea, Sen. Arlen Specter, a Pennsylvania
Republican, and the section's other sponsors slipped it into an
unrelated, must-pass bill to fund the Department of Justice. The plan:
to make it politically infeasible for politicians to oppose the measure.

The tactic worked. The bill cleared the House of Representatives by
voice vote, and the Senate unanimously approved it Dec. 16.

There's an interesting side note. An earlier version that the House
approved in September had radically different wording. It was reasonable
by comparison, and criminalized only using an "interactive computer
service" to cause someone "substantial emotional harm."

That kind of prohibition might make sense. But why should merely
annoying someone be illegal?

There are perfectly legitimate reasons to set up a Web site or write
something incendiary without telling everyone exactly who you are.

Think about it: A woman fired by a manager who demanded sexual favors
wants to blog about it without divulging her full name. An aspiring
pundit hopes to set up the next Suck.com. A frustrated citizen wants to
send e-mail describing corruption in local government without worrying
about reprisals.

In each of those three cases, someone's probably going to be annoyed.
That's enough to make the action a crime. (The Justice Department won't
file charges in every case, of course, but trusting prosecutorial
discretion is hardly reassuring.)

Clinton Fein, a San Francisco resident who runs the Annoy.com site, says
a feature permitting visitors to send obnoxious and profane postcards
through e-mail could be imperiled.

"Who decides what's annoying? That's the ultimate question," Fein said.
He added: "If you send an annoying message via the United States Post
Office, do you have to reveal your identity?"

Fein once sued to overturn part of the Communications Decency Act that
outlawed transmitting indecent material "with intent to annoy." But the
courts ruled the law applied only to obscene material, so Annoy.com
didn't have to worry.

"I'm certainly not going to close the site down," Fein said on Friday.
"I would fight it on First Amendment grounds."

He's right. Our esteemed politicians can't seem to grasp this simple
point, but the First Amendment protects our right to write something
that annoys someone else.

It even shields our right to do it anonymously. U.S. Supreme Court
Justice Clarence Thomas defended this principle magnificently in a 1995
case involving an Ohio woman who was punished for distributing anonymous
political pamphlets.

If President Bush truly believed in the principle of limited government
(it is in his official bio), he'd realize that the law he signed cannot
be squared with the Constitution he swore to uphold.

And then he'd repeat what President Clinton did a decade ago when he
felt compelled to sign a massive telecommunications law. Clinton
realized that the section of the law punishing abortion-related material
on the Internet was unconstitutional, and he directed the Justice
Department not to enforce it.

Bush has the chance to show his respect for what he calls Americans'
personal freedoms. Now we'll see if the president rises to the occasion.
Biography
Declan McCullagh is CNET News.com's Washington, D.C., correspondent. He
chronicles the busy intersection between technology and politics. Before
that, he worked for several years as Washington bureau chief for Wired
News. He has also worked as a reporter for The Netly News, Time magazine
and HotWired.
Tell us what you think about this storyTalkBack E-mail this story to a
friendE-mail View this story formatted for printingPrint See links from
elsewhere to this story (TrackBacks/Pingbacks)TrackBack


G- Blank - 12 Jan 2006 00:47 GMT
> Hey Mikey, [aka Uranium Committee]
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Jim Philopena

Hee hee, I posted the link yesterday on rec.LF
for the very same reason,....ain't GB-the prez great.

Well M.S. loves the prez so I guess he'll do what his man sez.

Signature

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

greg_____photo(dot)com

John - 13 Jan 2006 06:33 GMT
>Hee hee, I posted the link yesterday on rec.LF
>for the very same reason,....ain't GB-the prez great.

Dubya sux.

JD
Tom Gardner - 13 Jan 2006 15:02 GMT
>>Hee hee, I posted the link yesterday on rec.LF
>>for the very same reason,....ain't GB-the prez great.
>
> Dubya sux.
>
> JD

I'm with you brother, we need to surrender, raise taxes, abort more babies
and get more welfare!  We need a fine Democrat like Teddy Kenedy to lead
us...just don't make me get in his car.
UC - 13 Jan 2006 15:07 GMT
> >>Hee hee, I posted the link yesterday on rec.LF
> >>for the very same reason,....ain't GB-the prez great.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and get more welfare!  We need a fine Democrat like Teddy Kenedy to lead
> us...just don't make me get in his car.

When Jackie died, she was met at the pearly gates by Ethel Kennedy.

"You died?" Ethel asked.

"Why yes, I did" Jackie replied..didn't you know?

"Oh my! ....was Teddy driving?" Ethel asked....
G- Blank - 13 Jan 2006 18:55 GMT
> >>Hee hee, I posted the link yesterday on rec.LF
> >>for the very same reason,....ain't GB-the prez great.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and get more welfare!  We need a fine Democrat like Teddy Kenedy to lead
> us...just don't make me get in his car.

You don't know John very well do you Tom- he is not a liberal
by any stretch. However I feel compelled to further comment:

>  I'm with you brother, we need to surrender

Do you equate surrender with the Democratic Party?
& Why, if so?

>, raise taxes,

We need to collect taxes, all people versus saddling just business
or the middle class. We need the rich to pay a fair share as well as
currently non working poor. What we need most of all is creative
non finger pointing people appointed to public office. People with
an element of compassion versus self aggrandizing posturers who are
egotistically grabbing for every free lunch they can get. Yet we should
pay public officials fair wages, and expect them to behave.

> abort more babies

This a morality issue that is best discussed and decided by women
not men- give women some credit to decide the aspects of the arguments.

My personal feeling however its better to allow abortion in
circumstances  than to completely outlaw the practice. Both sides
thus far have not made the compromises needed to settle the issue.
Too me it appears rather simple, allow abortion in cases of rape and
incest rape, disallow it for means of birth control- establish a
support network whereby unwanted babies can be adopted.

Allow gay and lesbian couples to adopt but stipulate they can only adopt
opposite sexed babies-making sure that the children have access to
social council and being well cared for.

> > and get more welfare

One of the main reasons I joined the Republican party is its
stance on welfare, welfare of a sort does need to exist however
I still hold the belief that each person  is capable of making
contributions. If our society values those contributions and compensates
at a living wage then the need for welfare becomes diminished.

--
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

greg_____photo(dot)com
John - 14 Jan 2006 08:00 GMT
>>>Hee hee, I posted the link yesterday on rec.LF
>>>for the very same reason,....ain't GB-the prez great.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>I'm with you brother, we need to surrender

Surrender ? We're in a state of war ? We've been attacked by citizens
or agents hired by a identified sovereign nation ?

BTW, I sense that you have no idea at all about my political beliefs.
Lets just say I'm a Jeffersonian which is something that Dubya
defnitely is not. Jefferson lowered the national debt by 33% and Dubya
promises to bury our 80% of our GDP by 2009.

>, raise taxes,

To pay the projected debt that Bush has us racking up at the highest
rate in history of our country ?

> abort more babies

Remember, Southern Democrat. Hate abortion. Roe v. Wade should be
overturned. Abortion should only be allowed when the mothers health is
determined to be  at risk by two independant professionals or the
child is the result of incest or rape. That's all. Abortion is by no
means a manor for ethical birth control.

>and get more welfare!

Wrong. Less welfare. Welfare in all it's forms is simply a system of
corruption and abuse without a realistic path of resolution for
enrollees. Here in Tennessee we have a helth care debacle called
TennCare. It is one of the most abused programs I've ever seen. They
need to simply shut it down but unfortunately the process of shutting
off a welfare program inevitably lands the responsible party squarely
in the court of public ridicule.

>  We need a fine Democrat like Teddy Kenedy to lead
>us...just don't make me get in his car.

Bring Teddy down here and let me show you how a Southern Gentleman
would treat such a fine silver-tongued devil. In short he embodies
everything that is wrong with the Democrat party today. Unethical,
dishonest, crooked, corrupt,  un-focused and extremely self-centered.
Unfortunately the Southern Democrats don't really have a chance these
days as Teddy and the Blue Bloods have far too much money and
subsequently power over the party. This is why John Edwards never had
a chance. First the party backed Dean even though Edwards had
everything needed for a spectacular candidacy. And when Dean showed
how pathetic he is they backed Kerry. Yes, anyone but a Southern
Democrat !

John
seog - 12 Jan 2006 05:28 GMT
> Hey Mikey, [aka Uranium Committee]
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I will NOT discuss the constitutionality of this law.  Until it is deemed
> unconstitutional, it IS the law.  Wanna be the litmus test?

In that case I would support capital punishment. Or at least corporal
punishment.

Natural Light Black and White Photography
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze76ane/
-George-
John - 13 Jan 2006 06:40 GMT
>In that case I would support capital punishment. Or at least corporal
>punishment.

I'm all for a good old fashioned flogging !

JD
seog - 12 Jan 2006 05:28 GMT
> Hey Mikey, [aka Uranium Committee]
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I will NOT discuss the constitutionality of this law.  Until it is deemed
> unconstitutional, it IS the law.  Wanna be the litmus test?

In that case I would support capital punishment. Or at least corporal
punishment.

Natural Light Black and White Photography
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze76ane/
-George-
UC - 12 Jan 2006 15:23 GMT
> Hey Mikey, [aka Uranium Committee]
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> will NOT discuss the constitutionality of this law.  Until it is deemed
> unconstitutional, it IS the law.  Wanna be the litmus test?

Annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
Lawrence Akutagawa - 12 Jan 2006 16:14 GMT
> Annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
> annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy

[snip]

> annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
> annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy

Excellent - really excellent - summation of the effect UC has on this
newsgroup !!

I never could have said it better myself.  Wonderful to see it come from the
horse's mouth, as it were.
UC - 12 Jan 2006 16:17 GMT
The pleasure is all mine....

> > Annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
> > annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I never could have said it better myself.  Wonderful to see it come from the
> horse's mouth, as it were.
UC - 12 Jan 2006 16:25 GMT
I have contributed more than many here, and certainly more than you.

I have NO tolerance for misinformation, ESPECIALLY zone system
bullshit. Most of assorted half-wits who come here are clueless.

Photography seems to attract morons in disproportionally high numbers.

> > Annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
> > annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy annoy
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I never could have said it better myself.  Wonderful to see it come from the
> horse's mouth, as it were.
PATRICK GAINER - 12 Jan 2006 22:51 GMT
>I have contributed more than many here, and certainly more than you.
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
>  

Now you know what the other end of the horse sounds like.
UC - 12 Jan 2006 23:02 GMT
Patrick, go back to reading something that makes you think you know
something about argument and philosophy.

The amount of hot air expended on the part of zonazis and their
followers dwarfs my much more modest contributions to aerial heating.

My battle against nonsense will not stop.

> >I have contributed more than many here, and certainly more than you.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> >
> Now you know what the other end of the horse sounds like.
James Philopena - 12 Jan 2006 23:36 GMT
> Patrick, go back to reading something that makes you think you know
> something about argument and philosophy.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> My battle against nonsense will not stop.

Does that mean suicide is in your immediate future?
UC - 13 Jan 2006 15:03 GMT
Tell, me James, what you know about photography!

> > Patrick, go back to reading something that makes you think you know
> > something about argument and philosophy.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Does that mean suicide is in your immediate future?
James Philopena - 13 Jan 2006 23:41 GMT
> Tell, me James, what you know about photography!

I can only assume more than you demonstratively do about the proper use of
punctuation!

I can only tell you that I too, once, worked in photo retail.  I just didn't
make it a career.

I have been developing color and B&W since I was a junior in high school.  I
am now in my late forties.  So, shall we say, I've been actively using
photographic systems for 30 years.  I can say I've processed C-41, RA-4,
E-6, P-30, E-4 and a whole slew of B&W processes from simple Microdol to
stand processing and Pyro (which I love by the way).  All with a major
amount of frequency (except E-4, which has vanished - thankfully).  I have
shelves full of bulk chemical from which I mix my own developers, stops and
fixers.  I also have favorite COTS chemicals I use and prefer for my tastes.

My equipment spans from a large 35mm system to large format (only 4X5 due to
enlarger limitations).  My darkroom includes a good selection of equipment
to include a improved version of a Beseler 23CII and a Beseler 45 MCRX.  I
prefer APO lenses for the darkroom, and use Jobo and ThermaPhot processors
in addition to trays, drums and tanks.  I also swear by my ColorLine 7000
for both Color and B&W.  Life is good with a 72" line sink with digitally
controlled tempered water feeds in addition to normal faucets.  I process
all my own films (negative and positive) and print all my own photographs
(negative and positive).

What I know about photography is broad, but I only consider myself an
advanced amateur.  Not the photo god you profess yourself to be.  I enjoy
working in a darkroom and have had many a chance to impart things I've
learned to those who are just starting out.

I must hope that your belief of most people involved in photography are
idiots can only be attributed to your megalomania.  It has been my
experience that most people serious about photography, and not your casual
snap shooter, and anything but idiots.

So, what's your point?  And what does it have to do with the statement about
you are battling nonsense?  Look in the mirror, and win that battle with
nonsense first.

Jim Philopena
UC - 14 Jan 2006 01:28 GMT
> > Tell, me James, what you know about photography!
>
> I can only assume more than you demonstratively do about the proper use of
> punctuation!

My apologies, James, for that misplaced coma!

Or was that astigmatism....

> I can only tell you that I too, once, worked in photo retail.  I just didn't
> make it a career.

Neither did I, but it is not always so easy to change carreers.

> I have been developing color and B&W since I was a junior in high school.  I
> am now in my late forties.

I'm 56.

>  So, shall we say, I've been actively using
> photographic systems for 30 years.

For me, 40.

>  I can say I've processed C-41, RA-4,
> E-6, P-30, E-4 and a whole slew of B&W processes from simple Microdol to
> stand processing and Pyro (which I love by the way).

E-4, E-6, Agfachrome (don't put the color developer in first!) and
Ilford XP chemistry (similar to C41).

>  All with a major
> amount of frequency (except E-4, which has vanished - thankfully).  I have
> shelves full of bulk chemical from which I mix my own developers, stops and
> fixers.  I also have favorite COTS chemicals I use and prefer for my tastes.

I have many bottles of chemicals too, some of which I don't use
anymore.

> My equipment spans from a large 35mm system to large format (only 4X5 due to
> enlarger limitations).

I have not used 4x5 for a while, but I do know how to use one.

> My darkroom includes a good selection of equipment
> to include a improved version of a Beseler 23CII and a Beseler 45 MCRX.  I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> all my own films (negative and positive) and print all my own photographs
> (negative and positive).

My darkroom is 35mm only.

> What I know about photography is broad, but I only consider myself an
> advanced amateur.  Not the photo god you profess yourself to be.

I am no photo god, but I have made more mistakes than most people, and
learned a lot from them. The mistake period is thankfully long past.

>  I enjoy
> working in a darkroom and have had many a chance to impart things I've
> learned to those who are just starting out.

Same here, including community activity classes and college classrooms.

> I must hope that your belief of most people involved in photography are
> idiots can only be attributed to your megalomania.

No. It is based on long experience. Often unpleasant experience.

>  It has been my
> experience that most people serious about photography, and not your casual
> snap shooter, and anything but idiots.

?????

Did you mean:

"It has been my experience that most people serious about photography,
and not your casual snap shooter, are anything but idiots."

I don't know how to begin to reply to this. The main probblem as I see
it is that people don't understand science anymore. They accept the
most ludicrous proposotions about film or lenses without question, and
then pass it on to others.

> So, what's your point?  And what does it have to do with the statement about
> you are battling nonsense?  Look in the mirror, and win that battle with
> nonsense first.

Can you explain why the H&D curve is usually S-shaped?

Wait till my book comes out, from Oxford University Press.

> Jim Philopena
Keith Tapscott - 14 Jan 2006 15:05 GMT
> Wait till my book comes out, from Oxford University Press.

When will the book be published?
Lawrence Akutagawa - 14 Jan 2006 15:48 GMT
>> Wait till my book comes out, from Oxford University Press.
>
> When will the book be published?

More germane to this newsgroup, what is the book's title such that we here
who are annoyed by UC can avoid it like the proverbial plague?    I
mean...why reward the guy by buying his book, no matter what its merits?
Keith Tapscott - 14 Jan 2006 17:39 GMT
Curiosity dear fellow. It would also be interesting to know the title.

>>> Wait till my book comes out, from Oxford University Press.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> who are annoyed by UC can avoid it like the proverbial plague?    I
> mean...why reward the guy by buying his book, no matter what its merits?
seog - 14 Jan 2006 18:51 GMT
> Curiosity dear fellow. It would also be interesting to know the title.

Working titles for the world's shortest book by UC:

What I Know About Photography
Making Friends Thru Photography
My Greatest Photographs
What I Know About the Zone System
Lawrence Akutagawa - 14 Jan 2006 19:03 GMT
>>>> Wait till my book comes out, from Oxford University Press.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
> Curiosity dear fellow. It would also be interesting to know the title.

Or even getting the name of the publisher of this book.  A copy of a couple
of UC's rants from each of us to that esteemed organization should be rather
interesting, one would think.
David Nebenzahl - 15 Jan 2006 01:04 GMT
Lawrence Akutagawa spake thus:

>>>>> Wait till my book comes out, from Oxford University Press.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> couple of UC's rants from each of us to that esteemed organization
> should be rather interesting, one would think.

Wouldn't that amount to something of a vendetta on your part?

Signature

The only reason corrupt Republicans rule the roost in Washington
is because the corrupt Democrats can't muster any viable opposition.

Lawrence Akutagawa - 15 Jan 2006 01:25 GMT
> Lawrence Akutagawa spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Wouldn't that amount to something of a vendetta on your part?

Naw...if he is as he says he is, he certainly would have no qualms whatever
to share his rec.photo.darkroom rants with his publisher as he has with us.
hmmm...the use of the term "vendetta" suggest some negativity...I daresay
that UC finds nothing - absolutely nothing - negative, embarrassing, or even
annoying in his comments in this newsgroup.    He comes across as one of the
fundamentalist Muslims does - he has seen the light and knows the truth.
Any and all who disagree with him (especially as regards to Rodinal) are
infidels and need to be treated as such.  And so he does.....
bjw@mambo.ucolick.org - 15 Jan 2006 01:37 GMT
> Naw...if he is as he says he is, he certainly would have no qualms whatever
> to share his rec.photo.darkroom rants with his publisher as he has with us.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Any and all who disagree with him (especially as regards to Rodinal) are
> infidels and need to be treated as such.  And so he does.....

I think moving a Usenet dispute into the "real world" is usually
a sign of defeat, or revenge-taking.  UC is a pain in the a.s.
He clearly relishes that role.  He likes the outraged reaction,
so the agitated responses are playing his game.  Speaking
about Usenet flamebaiters in general, not just UC: If they offend
you, the way to avoid giving them what they want is to either avoid
responding, or at least avoid becoming irritated and retaliating.
The posters whom I most enjoy reading on this NG rarely get
agitated - for example Richard Knoppow.  And after all, it's not
like UC can stop you from using Rodinal.

I don't see what it would serve to attempt to suppress UC's book,
should it actually be on its way to publication.
Lawrence Akutagawa - 15 Jan 2006 01:54 GMT
>> Naw...if he is as he says he is, he certainly would have no qualms
>> whatever
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> I don't see what it would serve to attempt to suppress UC's book,
> should it actually be on its way to publication.

Suppress?  Who said anything about suppressing his book?  The point is that
if UC is as he says he is, he should have no qualms sharing his
rec.photo.darkroom comments and deep knowledge  with one and all, on the net
or off...including his publisher.  In fact, I wait with bated breath to see
some of his rec.photo.darkroom comments on the dust cover of his book.  Now
if he is hesitant to so share, then one would reasonably conclude that
perhaps - just perhaps - he is not as he says he is.
UC - 15 Jan 2006 20:48 GMT
When zonazis do it. they're not 'rants'. When I do it, they're 'rants.

The lies, misinformation and outright stupidity traded around on this
group is astonishing.

When I try to set things straight, I am called every name in the book.

'Troll' is the new 'nigger'.

Attempting to suppress my book would show the true faces of the cowards
here. What else would you expect from zonazis, but attempts at
suppression?

That's one of the reasons I am announcing the book here, so the zonazis
and large format bigots can show their true colors...

> >>>> Wait till my book comes out, from Oxford University Press.
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> of UC's rants from each of us to that esteemed organization should be rather
> interesting, one would think.
Lawrence Akutagawa - 15 Jan 2006 21:11 GMT
> When zonazis do it. they're not 'rants'. When I do it, they're 'rants.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>> interesting, one would think.

Good to hear from you again, UC.  You had me wondering there for a while.

So....title and publisher?
UC - 15 Jan 2006 21:21 GMT
> > When zonazis do it. they're not 'rants'. When I do it, they're 'rants.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> So....title and publisher?

"Shut Up Nah 'n' Push day Button, Yah Daft Bugger!"

"A-Whey Ken Yah Nay Act A wee Bit Leek Yer Litol Brudder, an' Halp Out
Wi'da Chores?"

to be published by

Oxbridge University Clean 'n' Press
Lawrence Akutagawa - 15 Jan 2006 22:28 GMT
>> Good to hear from you again, UC.  You had me wondering there for a while.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Oxbridge University Clean 'n' Press

hmmm...so why all this hesitation and obfuscation?   Such issue dodging
definitely is not at all like you and really does not become you.  Surely as
a true believer in what it is that you fervently believe, you aren't going
to pass up this opportunity to affirm your heartfelt beliefs...or are you?

The issue is extremely straightforward and simple - the title and the
publisher of your forthcoming book.
UC - 16 Jan 2006 14:06 GMT
> >> Good to hear from you again, UC.  You had me wondering there for a while.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> The issue is extremely straightforward and simple - the title and the
> publisher of your forthcoming book.

Confidential.
Lawrence Akutagawa - 16 Jan 2006 16:19 GMT
>> hmmm...so why all this hesitation and obfuscation?   Such issue dodging
>> definitely is not at all like you and really does not become you.  Surely
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Confidential.

"Confidential"?   True believer that you are?
"Confidential"?   Goodness gracious, great balls of fire!
"Confidential"?   You?

hmmm...this is not at all consistent with your other postings here to date.
This coyness and lack of candor certainly is not like you at all, at all, at
all.

Lots of credibility (yours) at stake here.  True believer that you are in
what it is that you believe, one would think - to judge from your prior
postings on various subjects in this newsgroup -  that you would without any
discernible reluctance or hesitation climb immediately without reservation
to the top of the nearest peak/hill and proclaim in a loud voice the title
and the publisher to let the ignorant , the unrepentant, and the infidel
know the *TRUTH*, unfurling a huge banner bearing in large letters said
title and publisher.

Given that you do share with us lowly types the title and the publisher, I
will seek confirmation of said title from said publisher.  I will certainly
share my query with the folks on this newsgroup, as well as any response
from said publisher.

My mind is still boggles with the thought that you - of all people - want to
keep confidential the title and the publisher of your forthcoming book...a
work that (I presume) to be sold to the public.

"Confidential"?  You?
UC - 16 Jan 2006 16:22 GMT
> >> hmmm...so why all this hesitation and obfuscation?   Such issue dodging
> >> definitely is not at all like you and really does not become you.  Surely
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> know the *TRUTH*, unfurling a huge banner bearing in large letters said
> title and publisher.

I have done the research and the work. Many have not. Many merely
repeat what they have heard from others or read in some book somewhere
or on the internet. The value of what I have to offer is higher than
that of these other dabblers. If I say that TMY has a curve that does
not lend itself to outdoor work as well as Tri-X, that reflects my
understanding not only of the curves of these two films, but how those
curves interact with typical outdoor scenes and with lenses. No matter
how many people say it isn't so, the facts say otherwise.

> Given that you do share with us lowly types the title and the publisher, I
> will seek confirmation of said title from said publisher.  I will certainly
> share my query with the folks on this newsgroup, as well as any response
> from said publisher.

No. That is confidential.

> My mind is still boggles with the thought that you - of all people - want to
> keep confidential the title and the publisher of your forthcoming book...a
> work that (I presume) to be sold to the public.

I wish to defer any dicsussions about this until the book is ready.
It's not ready. I'm still working on it. I don't have a title yet.

> "Confidential"?  You?
Lawrence Akutagawa - 16 Jan 2006 16:54 GMT
>> >> hmmm...so why all this hesitation and obfuscation?   Such issue
>> >> dodging
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
>
>> "Confidential"?  You?

More hestitancy and obfusation.  And lots and lots and lots of smoke.  So be
it.  I'll think of you as "T&P" hereafter...as in "Title and Publisher".
'nuf said.
UC - 16 Jan 2006 16:53 GMT
When it's published, I will tell everyone, and not before.

> >> >> hmmm...so why all this hesitation and obfuscation?   Such issue
> >> >> dodging
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
> it.  I'll think of you as "T&P" hereafter...as in "Title and Publisher".
> 'nuf said.
Lawrence Akutagawa - 16 Jan 2006 17:40 GMT
> When it's published, I will tell everyone, and not before.

But the time is now...not a week from now, or  a month from now, or six
months from now, or a year from now, or two years from now, or ten years
from now.  Now is the time to put your money where your mouth is...now is
when the rubber hits the road...now is the time to put up or shut up...now
is time to sh*t or get off the pot...now is the time to fish or cut bait.
Now - now - now -now.

I say no more on this matter because the point is - now - made.
UC - 16 Jan 2006 17:44 GMT
When the book is FINISHED, I'll lete everyone know, and NOT BEFORE!

> > When it's published, I will tell everyone, and not before.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I say no more on this matter because the point is - now - made.
UC - 15 Jan 2006 21:30 GMT
It will be wriiten in Scottish Gaelic.

Prepare yourself with this:

http://www.world-english.org/scottish_robertburns.htm

> > When zonazis do it. they're not 'rants'. When I do it, they're 'rants.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> So....title and publisher?
UC - 15 Jan 2006 21:30 GMT
It will be written in Scottish Gaelic.

Prepare yourself with this:

http://www.world-english.org/scottish_robertburns.htm

> > When zonazis do it. they're not 'rants'. When I do it, they're 'rants.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> So....title and publisher?
Francis A. Miniter - 12 Jan 2006 21:15 GMT
>Hey Mikey, [aka Uranium Committee]
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>  

First of all, here are the provisions of the existing law and the
amendment:

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

47 U.S. Code § 223 Obscene or harassing telephone calls in the District
of Columbia or in interstate or foreign communications

(a) Prohibited acts generally
Whoever—
(1) in interstate or foreign communications—
. . .
(C) makes a telephone call or utilizes a telecommunications device,
whether or not conversation or communication ensues, without disclosing
his identity and with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass any
person at the called number or who receives the communications;
. . .
shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than two years, or
both.

(h) Definitions
For purposes of this section—
(1) The use of the term “telecommunications device” in this section—
(A) shall not impose new obligations on broadcasting station licensees
and cable operators covered by obscenity and indecency provisions
elsewhere in this chapter; and
(B) does not include an interactive computer service.

Violence Against Women and Department of Justice Reauthorization Act of 2005

     SEC. 113. PREVENTING CYBERSTALKING.

     (a) In General- Paragraph (1) of section 223(h) of the
     Communications Act of 1934 (47 U.S.C. 223(h)(1)) is amended--

           (1) in subparagraph (A), by striking `and' at the end;

           (2) in subparagraph (B), by striking the period at the end
           and inserting `; and'; and

           (3) by adding at the end the following new subparagraph:

                 `(C) in the case of subparagraph (C) of subsection
                 (a)(1), includes any device or software that can be
                 used to originate telecommunications or other types of
                 communications that are transmitted, in whole or in
                 part, by the Internet (as such term is defined in
                 section 1104 of the Internet Tax Freedom Act (47
                 U.S.C. 151 note)).'.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

This is an amendment to the federal law regarding interstate phone calls
to harass someone. It adds the internet as a mechanism. Now, what is the
scope of this law? The main objective is to criminalize the use of
phones or internet to threaten someone with sexual, physical or
psychological abuse. The word "annoy" was always there. It is the
internet that is the new mechanism that has been added. So, what new
meaning is added? None. Has it been interpreted before? Not directly.
But the U.S. Supreme Court has overturned prior attempts to crimiinalize
internet activity:

ASHCROFT v. AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION, 542 U.S. 656 (2004), holding the
Communications Decency Act, which attempted to regulate internet speech, unconstitutional.

If held constitutional, something that has not been determined, it would have to be so
interpreted as to not place an undue burden on free speech on the internet.  

Francis A. Miniter
UC - 12 Jan 2006 21:20 GMT
> >Hey Mikey, [aka Uranium Committee]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
>
> Francis A. Miniter

Frank:

I really was not worried.
Francis A. Miniter - 13 Jan 2006 04:16 GMT
>>>Hey Mikey, [aka Uranium Committee]
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
>
> I really was not worried.

Hi Michael,

I know, but I just don't like the wrong interpretation of the law to be
propagated.  It does no good for the law or for the people.  The article quoted
by the original poster was a perverse exaggeration of what the statute actually
says, and yet it was published.

Francis A. Miniter
James Philopena - 12 Jan 2006 23:39 GMT
>>Hey Mikey, [aka Uranium Committee]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
>>Jim Philopena

[snip-o-doodle]

> ASHCROFT v. AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION, 542 U.S. 656 (2004), holding
> the Communications Decency Act, which attempted to regulate internet
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Francis A. Miniter

Francis,

  Like I said in the original post, I won't argue the constitutionality of
the new 'law'.  That's because I agree with any intelligent being on it's
constitutionality.  However, it hasn't been struck down - yet.

Jim
John - 13 Jan 2006 06:54 GMT
>ASHCROFT v. AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION, 542 U.S. 656 (2004), holding the
>Communications Decency Act, which attempted to regulate internet speech, unconstitutional.

Now what doesn't it surprise me that Ashcroft would try to do
something un-Constitutional ?????

Yeah, the same guy that said

    "The danger I see here is that intrusive judicial oversight
and second-guessing of presidential determinations in these critical
areas can put at risk the very security of our nation in a time of
war."

In way of criticizing the the American judicial system for not holding
with Dubya who wanted to avoid "constitutional complications" by
holding prisoners at Gitmo vs. here on American soild where
accountability would be less avoidable.

JD
UC - 13 Jan 2006 15:01 GMT
Those people are NOT POWs. They are terrorists.

They were not captured on American soil. They have NO rights under our
constitution, and the Geneva Convention does not protect them, either,
because those rules protect SOLDIERS that are part of a nation's armed
forces.

The terrorists are neither.

> >ASHCROFT v. AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION, 542 U.S. 656 (2004), holding the
> >Communications Decency Act, which attempted to regulate internet speech, unconstitutional.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> JD
Francis A. Miniter - 13 Jan 2006 16:31 GMT
If they are not combatants (which would give them the protection of
Geneva Convention III (1949)), then they are protected by Geneva
Convention IV (1949).  The US is a party to that treaty.  The Supremacy
Clause (Clause 2 of Article VI) of the US Constitution makes any treaty
to which the US is a party part of the law of the land to be obeyed as
if it were a statute.

Francis A. Miniter

>Those people are NOT POWs. They are terrorists.
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
>  
Frank Pittel - 13 Jan 2006 17:37 GMT
Actually since they're not wearing a military uniform they can be shot on
sight as spies.

: If they are not combatants (which would give them the protection of
: Geneva Convention III (1949)), then they are protected by Geneva
: Convention IV (1949).  The US is a party to that treaty.  The Supremacy
: Clause (Clause 2 of Article VI) of the US Constitution makes any treaty
: to which the US is a party part of the law of the land to be obeyed as
: if it were a statute.

: Francis A. Miniter

: >Those people are NOT POWs. They are terrorists.
: >
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
: >
: >  

Signature

-------------------
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you

UC - 13 Jan 2006 18:00 GMT
> Actually since they're not wearing a military uniform they can be shot on
> sight as spies.

Precisely, Frank.

During WWII, German spies were court-martialed and shot immediately, as
were our spies in enemy lands, I believe.

> : If they are not combatants (which would give them the protection of
> : Geneva Convention III (1949)), then they are protected by Geneva
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> -------------------
> Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
Francis A. Miniter - 16 Jan 2006 20:31 GMT
>>Actually since they're not wearing a military uniform they can be shot on
>>sight as spies.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> During WWII, German spies were court-martialed and shot immediately, as
> were our spies in enemy lands, I believe.

If you will note below, the Geneva Conventions are dated 1949.  That was after
WWII.  The Conventions were entered into by virtually every nation in the world
at that time in order to prevent such barbarous acts in the future.  Also see
the post I just made regarding the seven German spies and their trial and appeal
to the U. S. Supreme Court.  It helps to get some facts first.

Francis A. Miniter

>>: If they are not combatants (which would give them the protection of
>>: Geneva Convention III (1949)), then they are protected by Geneva
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>
>>: Francis A. Miniter
G- Blank - 13 Jan 2006 18:59 GMT
> Actually since they're not wearing a military uniform they can be shot on
> sight as spies.

Is that Site or Sight :) Might be rather unsettling to have public
executions by armed bands of CIA ops.....heil sig. -Get the point.  

Signature

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

greg_____photo(dot)com

John - 14 Jan 2006 06:12 GMT
>Might be rather unsettling to have public
>executions by armed bands of CIA ops.....heil sig. -Get the point.  

Witnesses ? What witnesses ?   ;>)

JD
John - 14 Jan 2006 06:10 GMT
>Actually since they're not wearing a military uniform they can be shot on
>sight as spies.

Yeah we'll worry about proof later . Kinda like the proof of WMD's
existing, eh ?

JD
Francis A. Miniter - 16 Jan 2006 20:27 GMT
No.  That is a violation of the Geneva Conventions.  If you pull someone out of
their house and call him a spy, that does not give you the right to shoot him.

Furthermore, the seven Germans executed by the United States in WWII as spies
not only had trials under the Code of Military Justice, they had appeals up to
the U.S. Supreme Court.  So, they certainly received at least some quantum of
due process afforded by the U. S. Constitution.

Francis A. Miniter

> Actually since they're not wearing a military uniform they can be shot on
> sight as spies.
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> : >
> : >  
G- Blank - 16 Jan 2006 21:23 GMT
> No.  That is a violation of the Geneva Conventions.  If you pull someone out
> of
> their house and call him a spy, that does not give you the right to shoot
> him.

Damn that tricky UC.

> Furthermore, the seven Germans executed by the United States in WWII as spies
> not only had trials under the Code of Military Justice, they had appeals up
> to
> the U.S. Supreme Court.  So, they certainly received at least some quantum of
> due process afforded by the U. S. Constitution.

Whitker Chambers?- Before my time but not too far from my house.

> Francis A. Miniter

Signature

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

greg_____photo(dot)com

alanrockwood2000@yahoo.com - 15 Jan 2006 23:48 GMT
There is also another angle to the issue of combatants. It is not
necessary that a person be serving in a uniformed service to be covered
by the Geneva conventions on POWs and related issues. It is a well
recognized principle that irregulars are also covered in certain cases,
particularly in cases where there has been a recent invasion and the
irregulars are fighting the invaders. On the face of it this would
include many or our opponents in Afghanistan aind Iraq, including some
who were picked up and are being held as so-called "enemy combatants".
I suspect that we agree on some or all of this, but some posters may
disagree, particularly some who base their opinion on their own opinion
so to speak rather than on real study.
alanrockwood2000@yahoo.com - 15 Jan 2006 23:40 GMT
UC, when was the last time you read the bill of rights? I challange you
to show me any language in the bill of rights that says it is
restricted to American soil or to American citizens.
James Philopena - 16 Jan 2006 02:51 GMT
> UC, when was the last time you read the bill of rights? I challange you
> to show me any language in the bill of rights that says it is
> restricted to American soil or to American citizens.

Not trying to pick a fight and certainly not standing up for or in for UC,
but that would be implied.

I mean, a constitution is written to cover and protect the citizen of a
country, not every living being on the planet.  We (America, as not all
countries do), extend the protections of our Constitution to those citizens
of other countries visiting ours and as recent court case prove, whether
they're here legally or not.  But a German citizen has no right to the
protections and laws of the U.S. Constitution while sitting in his house in
Dinkledorf (for example).  Nor does an enemy combatant in 'Gitmo, Cuba, or
Hinterbliebenstan, Afghanistan.  For those there are international treaties.
Which has already been addressed.
alanrockwood2000@yahoo.com - 16 Jan 2006 16:22 GMT
By failing to rise to the challenge (re-read the challenge) your reply
has supported my point. There is nothing in the bill of rights that
limits its protections to citizens or to US soil.

You say that the constitution was written to protect the citizen of the
country. Underlying this is an assumption that when the bill of rights
uses language such as "person" or "people" it really means "citizen" or
"citizens". However, the founding fathers were well aware of the
difference between a "person" and a "citizen". In general you will find
that the words are not used interchangebly in the constitution, and you
will not find any form of the word "citizen" used anywhere in the bill
of rights.

The bill of rights provides protection to individuals because they are
"people," not because they are "citizens."

As to the protection of persons outside of the US, I  do not assert
that the US constitution is ordinarily enforcible to an ordinary house
in "Dinkledor" Germany, but I do assert that it is enforcible in an
area under US control, such as a military base, embassy or prison, even
if that facility is located outside the soil of the fifty states. This
view is supported by the 2004 ruling of the supreme court in the Rasul
v. Bush case, a case which incidently involved Gitmo.
UC - 16 Jan 2006 16:26 GMT
The US constitution is founded on a notion of personhood that presumes
to be univerally applicable to all men. It applies TO citizens of the
US only.

It does not, however, apply to citizens of Germany or India, though it
should in principle. The fact of the matter is that the notion of
soverignty applies first.

> By failing to rise to the challenge (re-read the challenge) your reply
> has supported my point. There is nothing in the bill of rights that
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> view is supported by the 2004 ruling of the supreme court in the Rasul
> v. Bush case, a case which incidently involved Gitmo.
UC - 16 Jan 2006 16:27 GMT
The US constitution is founded on a notion of personhood that presumes
to be univerally applicable to all men. It applies TO citizens of the
US only.

It does not, then, apply to citizens of Germany or India, though it
should in principle. The fact of the matter is that the notion of
soverignty applies first.

> By failing to rise to the challenge (re-read the challenge) your reply
> has supported my point. There is nothing in the bill of rights that
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> view is supported by the 2004 ruling of the supreme court in the Rasul
> v. Bush case, a case which incidently involved Gitmo.
alanrockwood2000@yahoo.com - 16 Jan 2006 16:40 GMT
Show me where in the bill of rights it says this. By "this" I mean your
assertion that it applies only to citizens.
Francis A. Miniter - 16 Jan 2006 21:02 GMT
> The US constitution is founded on a notion of personhood that presumes
> to be univerally applicable to all men. It applies TO citizens of the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> should in principle. The fact of the matter is that the notion of
> soverignty applies first.

You are confused and are confusing separate issues.

1.    A citizen of England cannot claim in England his Miranda rights were violated
(though many do try to because U.S. television is so pervasive).

2.     That same citizen of England is entitled to due process in any charges
brought against him in a U. S. court of law, as provided in the 3rd clause of
Section 1 of the 14th Amendment:  "nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person
within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws".

3.     That same person, however, is not entitled to the protection of the 2nd
clause of that same Sec. 1, 14th Amendment:  "No state shall make or enforce any
law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United
States".

Michael, it is really impportant to read before you write.

Francis A. Miniter
Francis A. Miniter - 16 Jan 2006 20:51 GMT
> By failing to rise to the challenge (re-read the challenge) your reply
> has supported my point. There is nothing in the bill of rights that
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> view is supported by the 2004 ruling of the supreme court in the Rasul
> v. Bush case, a case which incidently involved Gitmo.

If I had read this post first, I would not have posted my last.

Francis A. Miniter
James Philopena - 17 Jan 2006 23:01 GMT
[snip]

but I do assert that it is enforcible in an
> area under US control, such as a military base, embassy or prison, even
> if that facility is located outside the soil of the fifty states. This
> view is supported by the 2004 ruling of the supreme court in the Rasul
> v. Bush case, a case which incidently involved Gitmo.

That assertion, at least as far as military bases are concerned, is mostly
wrong.  Having served on US military installations in several countries,
these bases and what rules/rights and laws govern the people living and
working on that installation are set forth in a treaty.  Normally called the
Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).  Take any military installation in any
foreign country and you'll find local nationals living and working on that
installation.  The US constitution and laws may not apply to them and in
most cases the laws of the local land are applicable.  In Germany, for
instance, a US Military Police office can apprehend, but not arrest a local
citizen.  They must turn that person over to the Polizei.  Now, they may not
have broken a law in Germany.  An Example.  A German 18 year old brings
liquor on an installation and gets drunk, but commits no other crime.  In
Germany, the legal drinking age is 16.  The US authorities have absolutely
no jurisdiction and the Germany authorities have no crime.  He goes home.
He many not be able to enter the installation again, but that's a different
argument.  In Turkey, when someone was wanted by the local authorities in
which jail time was a given, the US military would fly that person out of
the country before apprehended by the locals - but not all of them were so
fortunate.  There are many US Military member in Turkish prisons.  The US
constitution has never protected them from cruel and unusual punishment
there.

There is also the problem on overseas US military installations whereby some
people fall into a gray area.  Specifically, US Contractors.  There have
been a number of cases where a contractor has committed some crime (to
include murder), and quite literally gotten away with it.  The local
government will [usually] not care if the victim was not one of their
citizens and it didn't happen 'off base'.  US Code of Military Justice does
not apply, so the military cannot do a thing.  The US courts do not have
jurisdiction.  So who tries the person?  Specifically, in one instance on
Japan, a US Military contractor living on post there, killed his US wife.
He was only sent home.  His company (initially) couldn't even fire him based
on the murder, because he was never arrested and charged with it.  They
eventually did because he made himself ineligible for a security clearance.

 I have a civil claim that no one will touch against a former employer.
Again, the same things apply.  Not a German, US Company under protection of
the SOFA with Germany, Happen overseas so no US court will hear it.  If that
case would come to trial, I wouldn't have to work for the rest of my life,
unless I wanted to.  Oh well.
John - 18 Jan 2006 12:50 GMT
>  I have a civil claim that no one will touch against a former employer.
>Again, the same things apply.  Not a German, US Company under protection of
>the SOFA with Germany, Happen overseas so no US court will hear it.  If that
>case would come to trial, I wouldn't have to work for the rest of my life,
>unless I wanted to.  Oh well.

Note however that you are not pointing out capital crimes but rather
misdemenaors.

JD
James Philopena - 18 Jan 2006 23:24 GMT
>>  I have a civil claim that no one will touch against a former employer.
>>Again, the same things apply.  Not a German, US Company under protection
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> JD

Well, I did speak of murder as well.

But, I'm sorry.  No one is going to convince me that the US Constitution
protects a person in a foreign country for their actions while in a foreign
country.

I will accept without argument that a person of foreign citizenship is
protected while on US soil.

To say the US Constitution protects all people of all nations at all times
in all places is akin to annexation of those sovereign lands by forcing our
rule upon them.  If someone can show me that my mother-in-law (a German
citizen who has never traveled out of Europe) has all rights afforded to a
US citizen under the constitution, I will admit defeat.  I do have a trump
card in my hand, and I will play it to prove my point.  So be prepared.
alanrockwood2000@yahoo.com - 19 Jan 2006 07:05 GMT
James Philopena,

I think you have set up a straw man and knocked it down. I don't recall
anyone claiming that the US constitution protects people of all nations
at all times including persons who are on foreign soil and not under US
control. An exception is if a person is under control of the US
government. In that case I think it is a general principle that the US
government cannot violate their constitutional rights. It is my
understanding that the courts have made some rulings in favor of this
notion, such as the case I cited earlier, though the courts may lag a
bit on the issue.

Also, some of the examples you mentioned (Germany, Turkey) were not
cases where the US government violated anyones rights, at least as far
as I can tell from your description.

The points you make about some contractors literally getting away with
murder are very disturbing, and I do not doubt that it happens. In
fact, it is my view (politics intruding here a bit) that part of the
administration's strategy has been to rely on some of their contractors
to do some of their dirty, such as "interrogation with a rubber hose"
and the like, while officials look the other way. These are abuses that
ought not to happen.

Of course, sometimes it is US officials directly involved, such as the
army person currently on trial for the beating and murder of an Iraqi
general being held by the US army. The photos of the badly battered
body and the eye witness testimony given in court seems to be very
strong evidence in this particular case. This Iraqi general,
incidently, was not captured by the U.S. army. He was taken into
custody when he walked in looking for two of his sons.
alanrockwood2000@yahoo.com - 16 Jan 2006 16:38 GMT
One more issue. I actually don't know your position on varioius issues
surrounding the term "enemy combatant," so I make no criticism of your
position. However, I use your post, which used the term "enemy
combatant" as a springboard to raise an issue.

The term itself means a soldier or guerilla member who is waging war.
Enemy combatants are covered under Geneva convention III. As I may have
mentioned in another post, it is not necessary that an enemy combatant
be part of the regular armed forces or that he/she wear a uniform to be
covered by the Geneva conventions. Here is a direct quote from GCIII
defining an enemy combatant:

"or inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the
enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without
having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided
they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war."
Francis A. Miniter - 16 Jan 2006 20:48 GMT
>>UC, when was the last time you read the bill of rights? I challange you
>>to show me any language in the bill of rights that says it is
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Hinterbliebenstan, Afghanistan.  For those there are international treaties.
> Which has already been addressed.

The U. S. Supreme Court has held on many, many occasions that certain provisions
of the Constitution apply to non-citizens.  The language of the Constitution,
for instance, distinguishes between "individuals" or "persons", on the one hand,
and "citizens", on the other.  Where a right is accorded to persons or
individuals, then, it does not require that the person or individual be a
citizen.  Example, there are many non-citizens who, being accused of a crime
under the laws of the United States (which, by the way, will extend a bomb maker
who never leaves his house in Doussledorf) are entitled to the benefits of due
process in a trial of the issue.  Then there are refugees seeking asylum in the
USA.  They are entitled to an asylum trial before an Immigration Judge and to an
appeal to the Immigration Appeals Court.  And as to Guantanamo, the U.S. Supreme
Court recently ruled (this was even discussed in the Alito hearings!) that one
in the custody of the U.S. Government, a detainee is entitled to at least have
his status determined in a fair manner.  The Court has not specified a lot at
this point, waiting instead to see how the situation develops, under the long
standing case and controversy position of the Court.

Francis A. Miniter
Jan T - 13 Jan 2006 18:42 GMT
I find ALL THIS annoying.
Gentlemen, stop this now and get back to work. I visit this NG to learn
something about photography, not about fulminating. If anybody has to tell
anything, do it, but let it be in a way that does not chase me and others
away. Thank you everybody!

Jan

| Hey Mikey, [aka Uranium Committee]
|
[quoted text clipped - 120 lines]
| friendE-mail View this story formatted for printingPrint See links from
| elsewhere to this story (TrackBacks/Pingbacks)TrackBack
G- Blank - 13 Jan 2006 19:31 GMT
> I find ALL THIS annoying.
> Gentlemen, stop this now and get back to work. I visit this NG to learn
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Jan

OT posts not marked as such? If a correlation needs to be considered -
photographers  have always politically involved. To expect that not be
the case is  rather non realistic. Given the recent almost two year
history of one person taking the newsgroup hostage and inflaming almost
everyone  here, I think a little taunting can be tolerated-given that
the proclamation of our beloved President is appropriate to the
hostage situation at large.

Then again you also are in violation by using the T as opposed to you
full name, expect the CIA shortly at you door ;)

Signature

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

greg_____photo(dot)com

Jan T - 16 Jan 2006 19:05 GMT
| Then again you also are in violation by using the T as opposed to you
| full name, expect the CIA shortly at you door ;)

CIA In Belgium? Never seen any. Well, I wouldn't swear on it, one never
knows...

FYI the T stands for Tieghem. This is so flemish (dutchspeaking part of my
country) and difficult to spell I wouldn't like to annoy the Anglo-Saxon
collegues on the other side of the ocean. 100 years ago some ancestors moved
to the states and since then the IE in my name was changed into Y. See what
I mean? ;-)

Kind regards,
Jan Tieghem
www.jantieghem.be
G- Blank - 16 Jan 2006 20:29 GMT
> | Then again you also are in violation by using the T as opposed to you
> | full name, expect the CIA shortly at you door ;)
> |
> CIA In Belgium? Never seen any. Well, I wouldn't swear on it, one never
> knows...

Right-If doing their job that is the case-"hopefully".

> FYI the T stands for Tieghem. This is so flemish (dutchspeaking part of my
> country) and difficult to spell I wouldn't like to annoy the Anglo-Saxon
> collegues on the other side of the ocean.

Doesn't annoy me :)    Dutch beer appears to be just as good as German!

> 100 years ago some ancestors moved
> to the states and since then the IE in my name was changed into Y. See what
> I mean? ;-)

Only 100 :) Part of my mothers family was here before the Revolution,
and can be traced to Switzerland around 1400's. One relative was a
goldsmith and a knight to the King of Switzerland. Another relative was
deeded 1 million acres of ground in Virginia by the King of England and
was a ship captain - very distant relation-never the less its all
history.

Out of curiosity where did your family settle-  New York????

> Kind regards,
> Jan Tieghem
> www.jantieghem.be

Take care :)

Signature

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

greg_____photo(dot)com

Jan Tieghem - 16 Jan 2006 22:58 GMT
very OT now, but I couldn't resist...

confusion! I'm a Belgian, and dutch beer comes from the Netherlands, who are
our northern neighbours. Belgium is the most versatile beer-country in the
world, with over 2.000 different kinds (don't forget we are only
10.000.000).
The dutch beer is as much as the german beer really inferior to the belgian
beers (I am NOT blaming the people over there, just their beer, let that be
clear!!! I have some very nice friends over there and they even do agree on
my beer-point!). It appears to me you never tasted a Belgian beer, Greg!
It is sadly enough true that in the US you can find beer from the
Netherlands, but that's only a matter of marketing. We Belgians seem to be
much to humble ;-)))

My relatives went to Michigan, Florida,... but I met two of them in NYC last
september. Was great! And I liked the american beer too!

cheers!

Jan

| Doesn't annoy me :)    Dutch beer appears to be just as good as German!
|
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
|
| Take care :)
G- Blank - 17 Jan 2006 00:30 GMT
> very OT now, but I couldn't resist...
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Jan

If you ever get to Baltimore, we can treat you to some
American home brew,....not commercially packaged.
I will probably in the not so distant future attempt to make some
as well.

My brother makes very good beer. I have drank many different
kinds of quality beer so its quite possible I have unknowingly sampled
some Belgian beer :) And to keep this photo related-bring some pictures
:)

Signature

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

greg_____photo(dot)com

John - 17 Jan 2006 05:10 GMT
>If you ever get to Baltimore, we can treat you to some
>American home brew,....not commercially packaged.
>I will probably in the not so distant future attempt to make some
>as well.

Nest time I'm heading that way I'll bring you an oak cask from JD.
Perhaps you can make something like Sam Adams Millennium Ale ? Only
3000 bottles signed by Koch. $200/bottle.

http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/samuel-adams-millennium/1479/

JD
Tom Phillips - 17 Jan 2006 07:06 GMT
> >If you ever get to Baltimore, we can treat you to some
> >American home brew,....not commercially packaged.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> JD