Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / December 2005
Writing on the back of prints
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lew - 20 Dec 2005 13:15 GMT I'm starting to write notes on the back of my prints so I'm wondering about the long term effects re pigments migrating through to the front, spreading out and/or compromising the archival properties of the print. I'm using a china marker, what about a #2 pencil or ball point pen? Are there different considerations re rc vs fb papers? -Lew
William Schneider - 20 Dec 2005 14:43 GMT I've never been afraid to use a pencil for notations on the back of the print. Quite often, I write exposure / contrast / dodge&burn settings on the back of the print before it is exposed and processed. Pencil doesn't migrate when damp. Be sure to write lightly so that you don't emboss the paper through to the front - using a hard, smooth writing surface helps prevent that.
Because of the surface coating on RC papers, you'll find it difficult to write anything in pencil. Some RC papers have a coatings on the back that take pencil better than others, but never as good as non-RC papers. On the other hand, the plastic coating will resist ink bleed-through better than fiber paper should you choose ink. I buy special archival pigment pens from a local art store for writing on prints in ink when I need to. I NEVER use commonly available Sharpie markers though - I've seen too many of them bleed over time on many different surfaces including plastics.
If I use ink on any paper, I try to contain all notes to the white margin area so that potential bleed-through won't affect anything in the picture area.
Bill Schneider
Nicholas O. Lindan - 20 Dec 2005 15:18 GMT > I NEVER use ... markers [that] I've seen ... bleed > over time on many different surfaces including plastics. A good test for bleed-through is to see if the ink can be removed. If pure white paper/stuff is left then the ink isn't going into the paper.
FWIW a fresh Sharpie brand marker on the back of Kodak RC paper can be removed with PEC-12, leaving only a very faint mark. A 2-year old mark on the back of Ilford RC leaves the same very faint mark.
My conclusion is permanent marker doesn't penetrate RC paper. Real long term, well, if I could predict the future I'd be on Wall Street and not Usenet.
I would not sell an RC print w/ magic marker on the back. But then I don't sell RC prints. I mean if it's something for posterity, or a print someone spent a $100 on, then what in blazes is 25 cents extra for FB paper?
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm
Jean-David Beyer - 20 Dec 2005 15:33 GMT > I'm starting to write notes on the back of my prints so I'm wondering about > the long term effects re pigments migrating through to the front, spreading > out and/or compromising the archival properties of the print. I'm using a > china marker, what about a #2 pencil or ball point pen? Are there different > considerations re rc vs fb papers? > -Lew For RC paper, I use a china marker. For fibre paper, I use a #3B or #4B pencil. You do not make sharp points with such soft pencils, and you do not need to press as hard as for an HB (#2) pencil.
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lew - 20 Dec 2005 17:38 GMT Any reason not to use the china marker on fb prints?
>> I'm starting to write notes on the back of my prints so I'm wondering >> about [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > with such soft pencils, and you do not need to press as hard as for an HB > (#2) pencil. bill - 20 Dec 2005 18:58 GMT The only marking on my prints are the file number and that is on the reverse side edge using a gel pen or sharpie fine point. All other info is on a seperate sheet of paper and filed with the marked up print and negative.BTW my numbering sytem is the date, frame and roll, ie. 122005-16-1.
Bill
> Any reason not to use the china marker on fb prints? >>> I'm starting to write notes on the back of my prints so I'm wondering [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> with such soft pencils, and you do not need to press as hard as for an HB >> (#2) pencil. Thor Lancelot Simon - 20 Dec 2005 21:25 GMT >The only marking on my prints are the file number and that is on the reverse >side edge using a gel pen or sharpie fine point. All other info is on a >seperate sheet of paper and filed with the marked up print and negative.BTW >my numbering sytem is the date, frame and roll, ie. 122005-16-1. It's not a good idea to use ink of unknown composition on your prints or negatives -- or other materials stored with them. It can migrate from one print to another even if it can't migrate through the coating on an RC print; lots of ink is acidic or otherwise not safe long-term for silver prints or their paper support.
When archival pigment pens are readily available, why take the chance?
 Signature Thor Lancelot Simon tls@rek.tjls.com
"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky
Jean-David Beyer - 21 Dec 2005 01:59 GMT > Any reason not to use the china marker on fb prints? No, it is just my policy. ;-)
>>>I'm starting to write notes on the back of my prints so I'm wondering >>>about [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >>with such soft pencils, and you do not need to press as hard as for an HB >>(#2) pencil.
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Jan T - 24 Dec 2005 13:24 GMT I thought #00 was the softest? Or is this another disagreement concerning standards between Europe and US? I use a #00 - the softest I can get here - on FB, it writes clearly and smoothly, without danger of embossing.
| > I'm starting to write notes on the back of my prints so I'm wondering about | > the long term effects re pigments migrating through to the front, spreading [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | with such soft pencils, and you do not need to press as hard as for an HB | (#2) pencil. Jean-David Beyer - 24 Dec 2005 13:42 GMT > I thought #00 was the softest? Or is this another disagreement concerning > standards between Europe and US? I never heard of numbered pencil grades other than #2 and #2.5. If those are indicative, I would guess a #0 would be the softest, though, of course #00 could be softer still.
Here, pencils go from 9H (the hardest, and useless for anything IMAO, down to H. Then there is HB, which is normal, then softer all the way to 9B. I have never seen a 9B pencil, but 4B is very very soft. I usually use #3B on photographs, and 2H (not on photographs) when doing fine work.
> I use a #00 - the softest I can get here - on FB, it writes clearly and > smoothly, without danger of embossing. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > | with such soft pencils, and you do not need to press as hard as for an HB > | (#2) pencil.
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Mike King - 20 Dec 2005 18:47 GMT Writing on the back of RC, I use a really soft pencil and make sure that I write on a hard surface to minimize the effect of press through to the surface of the print. Two pencils I have right now in the darkroom that work well are a Sanford Design Drawing 3800 6B and a Prang Drawing 3B. Some very soft pencils have hard bits in them, (perhaps from the clay the graphite is mixed with?) but these two brands give good results on a tricky surface. I have also had better luck with drawing pencils than with drafting pencils. And with wood wrapped pencils vs. drawing or drafting leads. I usually take a scrap of RC paper along to test before I buy. You don't want a really sharp point either. If you use a sharpener blunt down the sharp point a bit on a piece of paper or even sandpaper before using on prints.
Ball point works and I like the medium Parker ballpoint in black, seems to skip less on most surfaces than cheaper pens (haven't tried the new gel refill suspect it would be less satisfactory), but I only use ball point on work prints, ditto for Sharpies, etc. Print collectors and museum types throw up their hands in horror when they see ink on prints, us mere mortals don't sweat that kind of thing, but who am I to frustrate people who will be collecting my prints in 150 years! On the other hand, my complaint department will have been closed for a long time by then.
 Signature darkroommike
> I'm starting to write notes on the back of my prints so I'm wondering about > the long term effects re pigments migrating through to the front, spreading > out and/or compromising the archival properties of the print. I'm using a > china marker, what about a #2 pencil or ball point pen? Are there different > considerations re rc vs fb papers? > -Lew
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