Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / September 2003
The Ansel Trick; Roll Film and the Zone System
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Dan Quinn - 22 Sep 2003 09:44 GMT A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There you will learn HOW TO. Dan
Michael Scarpitti - 22 Sep 2003 14:40 GMT > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There > you will learn HOW TO. Dan They're not compatible. Not at all.
1. The PURPOSE of roll film is to shoot a lot of film at various times and places, and of course to develop the film together precludes INDIVIDUAL negative development. 2. Small format film suffers when given longer than normal devlopment (expansions in ZS parlance). 3. Better methods for contrast control exist now than when the ZS was developed, and materials are quite different.
David Nebenzahl - 23 Sep 2003 04:38 GMT On 9/22/2003 6:40 AM Michael Scarpitti spake thus:
>> A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film >> are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and places, and of course to develop the film together precludes > INDIVIDUAL negative development. Excuse me, stop it right there, buddy.
Just what the f.ck gives *you* the almighty omniscience and authority to say what the "purpose" of roll film is--or isn't?
This is doctrinaire horseshit of the first stink! Perhaps the stated purpose is *your* purpose; fine. But to try to extrapolate from there to laying down the law as to what "the purpose" of roll film is--well you, sir, really ought to sit yourself down with a good analyst and have those delusions of grandeur looked at.
I can think of many other perfectly valid "purposes" for roll film, as I'm sure can many others here. Some of these purposes would definitely benefit from the previsualization and Zone System methodology you so hate. And sure, some other purposes do not: I believe the logical fallacy of your example (humorous though it may have been) of politely asking a linebacker if he can please stop while you change film backs is called a "red herring"; nobody is suggesting that sports photogs get all Zoney with it.
I'm planning on doing some shooting using miniature cameras (aka 35mm) to do some advance proofs on a subject that will definitely involve previsualization and Zone System methods (to the extent that my poor brain can implement them). Am I going to be stopped by the Photography Police and have my permission to take pictures revoked on account of this?
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- Alexander Cockburn, _CounterPunch_ (http://www.counterpunch.org), 9/17/03
Michael Scarpitti - 23 Sep 2003 15:38 GMT > On 9/22/2003 6:40 AM Michael Scarpitti spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > sure can many others here. Some of these purposes would definitely benefit > from the previsualization and Zone System methodology you so hate. I never have, and never will previsualize. It's too slow, or I'm too fast.
> And sure, > some other purposes do not: I believe the logical fallacy of your example > (humorous though it may have been) of politely asking a linebacker if he can > please stop while you change film backs is called a "red herring"; nobody is > suggesting that sports photogs get all Zoney with it. Do you or does anybody here work in reportage/sports photography?
> I'm planning on doing some shooting using miniature cameras (aka 35mm) to do > some advance proofs on a subject that will definitely involve previsualization > and Zone System methods (to the extent that my poor brain can implement > them). Am I going to be stopped by the Photography Police and have my > permission to take pictures revoked on account of this? I don't think you understand how inappropriate and harmful it can be to teach ZS to 35mm beginners. The whole point of using the 35mm camera is to be able to respond instantly and freely to a vraiety of rapidly changing events, conditions, and situations. That precludes doing ZS or previsualizing.
Alexis Neel - 25 Sep 2003 10:47 GMT mikescarpitti@yahoo.com (Michael Scarpitti) wrote in message > I don't think you understand how inappropriate and harmful it can be
> to teach ZS to 35mm beginners. The whole point of using the 35mm > camera is to be able to respond instantly and freely to a vraiety of > rapidly changing events, conditions, and situations. That precludes > doing ZS or previsualizing. You facinate me Michael...to be able to continue to come up with moronic statements day after day, and contrary to the fact that we all know you truely know nothing about photography, except your own personal preferences, is quite impressive. My hats off to you.
Now, go bother other people for a while.
Thank you and good bye.
Michael Scarpitti - 25 Sep 2003 19:32 GMT > mikescarpitti@yahoo.com (Michael Scarpitti) wrote in message > I don't think you understand how inappropriate and harmful it can be > > to teach ZS to 35mm beginners. The whole point of using the 35mm [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thank you and good bye. You think thry're moronic because they don't jive with what you believe to be true.
Did you understand what I meant about the curves? They tell the whole story.
Tell you what. Let's call a truce. I'm surely not an ignorant fool, and I'm sure you're not. I've had too much success (I mean that in the technical sense) in my work to accept that.
The one who wants to debunk erroneous theories is always laughed at and scorned, so I'm not surprised. The simplest way to prove one way or the other is with comparative testing. Maybe you don't believe in that. MY sucks for outdoor use.
So: I propose the following:
Let's have a little contest. I can send you a negative to print, and print it myself. We'll send the prints to a third party for an opinion on our prints. Or you can send me a negative that you think would be a challenge. What do you say? Are you willing to back up your words and claims? I am.
Alexis Neel - 26 Sep 2003 09:31 GMT > > mikescarpitti@yahoo.com (Michael Scarpitti) wrote in message > I don't think you understand how inappropriate and harmful it can be > > > to teach ZS to 35mm beginners. The whole point of using the 35mm [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > challenge. What do you say? Are you willing to back up your words and > claims? I am. Sure. I'll send you my address. Unfortunatly, I don't have difficult negs or I'd send you one.
Dan Quinn - 25 Sep 2003 22:44 GMT RE: webehi2@yahoo.com (Alexis Neel)
The thread "Ansel's Trick...." has had a very disapointing response so far. Not a single poster to that thread has refered to the "Trick" or bothered to comment on the Selenium boost. I'll agree with you and give Mr. Scarpitti his second "Absurd" for the month. His comments detract from what knowledge he does convey. Of course if he is purposely conveying false information then someone should see to it that he behave himself. He'd be better off telling us to "Expose for the Shadows and Develop for the Highlights". Better to tell us that than not offer any alternative. I think he may be opposed to the elaboration of that old axiom but not the axiom itself. But that brings us back to the subject of photography and Ansel's application of that old axiom to roll film. For further INFORMATION search this NG for, ansel blad backs. Dan
jjs - 25 Sep 2003 22:48 GMT > RE: webehi2@yahoo.com (Alexis Neel) > > The thread "Ansel's Trick...." has had a very disapointing > response so far. Not a single poster to that thread has refered > to the "Trick" or bothered to comment on the Selenium boost. I'm waiting for a response, too. My uncontrolled experiment with it only increased contrast. It did not help middle-tones in particular. I'd like to think it would behave otherwise.
Alexis Neel - 26 Sep 2003 09:32 GMT > > RE: webehi2@yahoo.com (Alexis Neel) > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > increased contrast. It did not help middle-tones in particular. I'd like to > think it would behave otherwise. I missed the thread or question...what was it??
Dan Quinn - 27 Sep 2003 08:28 GMT > I missed the thread or question...what was it?? A thread I started. "The Ansel Trick, Roll Film and the Zone System" Dan
Michael Scarpitti - 26 Sep 2003 18:26 GMT > > RE: webehi2@yahoo.com (Alexis Neel) > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > increased contrast. It did not help middle-tones in particular. I'd like to > think it would behave otherwise. That supports my view. You need to use compensating development (not contraction), which will cut highlight density and contrast while maintaining or boosting mid-tone and shadow separation.
Dan Quinn - 30 Sep 2003 10:02 GMT Dan wrote:
> > The thread "Ansel's Trick...." has had a very disapointing > > response so far. Not a single poster to that thread has refered > > to the "Trick" or bothered to comment on the Selenium boost.
> I'm waiting for a response, too. My uncontrolled experiment with it > only increased contrast. It did not help middle-tones in particular. > I'd like to think it would behave otherwise. Selenium after treatment of negatives DOES increase contrast. It's supposed to. That is the Trick. Dan
Darrell A. Larose - 22 Sep 2003 14:43 GMT > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There > you will learn HOW TO. Dan Seems simple enough multiple backs one for N, N-1, N-2, N+1, N+2 etc..
Michael Scarpitti - 22 Sep 2003 22:59 GMT > > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film > > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There > > you will learn HOW TO. Dan > > Seems simple enough multiple backs one for N, N-1, N-2, N+1, N+2 etc.. As if! I'm really going to stop that football player and say 'could you hold it a minute while I change to my N-1 back'? This is ridiculous!
Le Grande Raoul - 23 Sep 2003 01:51 GMT > > > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film > > > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > you hold it a minute while I change to my N-1 back'? This is > ridiculous! Not more of this! Once again:
If the sports field is very bright with lots of contrast, the photographer may want to develpp a little less and expose a little more to control the contrast. This couold be seen as "N-1" developing.
Action is a different thing. Controlling the contrast and getting a very wide range of tonality is not what are important in action photography. What is important is the 'decisive moment'. If given the time, the toinality and contrast of an 'action' picture could be improved- but at the expense of the best quality of the action photograph- the acton!
There are many different techniques for different situations.
Jeff
Frank Pittel - 23 Sep 2003 02:32 GMT : > > > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film : > > > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : > you hold it a minute while I change to my N-1 back'? This is : > ridiculous!
: Not more of this! Once again:
: If the sports field is very bright with lots of contrast, the : photographer may want to develpp a little less and expose a little more : to control the contrast. This couold be seen as "N-1" developing.
: Action is a different thing. Controlling the contrast and getting a : very wide range of tonality is not what are important in action : photography. What is important is the 'decisive moment'. If given the : time, the toinality and contrast of an 'action' picture could be : improved- but at the expense of the best quality of the action : photograph- the acton!
: There are many different techniques for different situations. Somehow scarpitti has his mind made up that the contrast of a football field is going to change with every shot.
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J Stafford - 23 Sep 2003 02:40 GMT > Somehow scarpitti has his mind made up that the contrast of a football field > is going to change with every shot. Indeed, and for that Mr. Scarpitti is hereby sentenced to get ten good pictures from an impoverished highschool's night football game.
Frank Pittel - 23 Sep 2003 03:37 GMT : > Somehow scarpitti has his mind made up that the contrast of a football field : > is going to change with every shot.
: Indeed, and for that Mr. Scarpitti is hereby sentenced to get ten good : pictures from an impoverished highschool's night football game. And he has to do it using TMY and an Argus brick!!
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David Starr - 23 Sep 2003 20:45 GMT >: > Somehow scarpitti has his mind made up that the contrast of a football field >: > is going to change with every shot. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >And he has to do it using TMY and an Argus brick!! Nope. Speed Graphic, 6 holders loaded with TMY, and use press 25 flashbulbs.
Been there, did that, only I used Tri-X. Got a great shot of a power sweep just before they trampled me.
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Michael Scarpitti - 23 Sep 2003 15:26 GMT > > > > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film > > > > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Jeff Right, Jeff!
Michael Scarpitti - 23 Sep 2003 15:53 GMT > > > > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film > > > > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > As if! I'm really going to stop that football player and say 'could > > you hold it a minute while I change to my N-1 back'? This is
> > ridiculous! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > photographer may want to develpp a little less and expose a little more > to control the contrast. This couold be seen as "N-1" developing. No. You use compensating development. If you underdevelop you lose too much shadow contrast. And if you use a higher grade of paper to compensate, you lose the highlights again anyway because of that...and you're right back to where you were before. Compensating development softens the highlights and strengthens the shadows, which is just what you need.
> Action is a different thing. Controlling the contrast and getting a > very wide range of tonality is not what are important in action > photography. That's right.
> What is important is the 'decisive moment'. That's right.
> If given the > time, the toinality and contrast of an 'action' picture could be > improved- but at the expense of the best quality of the action > photograph- the acton! That's right. So for what other purpose would you use miniature/roll film, except for action/reportage, where the 'decisive moment' is the whole point?
> There are many different techniques for different situations. > > Jeff J Stafford - 24 Sep 2003 01:19 GMT > No. You use compensating development. If you underdevelop you lose too > much shadow contrast. [blah blah blah] So Mike, you got a life? It's been eight hours since I checked in here and I've done a lot of work in that time. What have you done, but sit at your keyboard and lurk, waiting to disperse your nonpracticing wisdom on the rest of us?
May I suggest you actually get out here and make pictures, get a life, or get the hell out of here?
It is hard. Leave the Usenet dream. Get a life.
Michael Scarpitti - 24 Sep 2003 14:16 GMT > > No. You use compensating development. If you underdevelop you lose too > > much shadow contrast. [blah blah blah] [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > It is hard. Leave the Usenet dream. Get a life. Went out last night after work. Got a winner shot I've been working on for some time. Light crossing a building at exactly 6:45 pm. Looking at the negs now.
Darrell A. Larose - 23 Sep 2003 03:56 GMT >> > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film >> > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > you hold it a minute while I change to my N-1 back'? This is > ridiculous! As ridiculous as doing football with a Hasselblad! Sports are better suited for 35mm or a DSLR. If one is using the Zone System they aren't photographing sports. So doing the Ansel Adams style of landscape changing backs isn't that big a deal.
Frank Pittel - 23 Sep 2003 04:38 GMT : >> > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film : >> > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : > you hold it a minute while I change to my N-1 back'? This is : > ridiculous!
: As ridiculous as doing football with a Hasselblad! Sports are better : suited for 35mm or a DSLR. If one is using the Zone System they aren't : photographing sports. So doing the Ansel Adams style of landscape changing : backs isn't that big a deal. You need to explain why the zone system can't be used when photographing a football game. While I've never had the luck to be at the sidelines of a pro game. I do have season tickets to the local pro team and on more then one occasion I've brought a camera and photographed the action on the field.
Using the zone systemwas easy. From my seat I metered the shadow area to set the exposure and the highlight to determine the contrast. For reasons unknown to scarpitti neither the exposure changed from 12:30pm to after 1:00pm.
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Michael Scarpitti - 23 Sep 2003 15:28 GMT > : >> > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film > : >> > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > You need to explain why the zone system can't be used when photographing a > football game. 1. Clouds 2. Angles 3. Sun moves over game's duration
> While I've never had the luck to be at the sidelines of a pro > game. I do have season tickets to the local pro team and on more then one [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the exposure and the highlight to determine the contrast. For reasons unknown > to scarpitti neither the exposure changed from 12:30pm to after 1:00pm. Cloudless day?
Michael Scarpitti - 23 Sep 2003 20:45 GMT > : >> > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film > : >> > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > the exposure and the highlight to determine the contrast. For reasons unknown > to scarpitti neither the exposure changed from 12:30pm to after 1:00pm. If you sit in the same seat all day, shoot from the same angle, the teams don't move about on the field, the sun doesn't move, and there are no clouds.........
J Stafford - 24 Sep 2003 01:21 GMT > If you sit in the same seat all day, shoot from the same angle, the > teams don't move about on the field, the sun doesn't move, and there > are no clouds......... When one shoots football, position is critical. Many good sports photographers know this and don't move from the spot. The live a millisecond ahead of The Rest of Us and make good pictures.
Now tell me I'm wrong. Make my day.
Frank Pittel - 24 Sep 2003 04:42 GMT : > If you sit in the same seat all day, shoot from the same angle, the : > teams don't move about on the field, the sun doesn't move, and there : > are no clouds.........
: When one shoots football, position is critical. Many good sports : photographers know this and don't move from the spot. The live a : millisecond ahead of The Rest of Us and make good pictures.
: Now tell me I'm wrong. Make my day. That's why there are a lot of photographers are the sidelines of a game. Some of them move along the sidelines to get the sideline shots and others stay in the endzone to get the endzone shots.
I don't know what it's like in the rest of the world, but here in Chicago the sun doesn't move fast enough from noon to ~3pm that there is going to be significant changes in contrast in a 15 minute span. Any idiot knows that if a cloud passing through has enough effect on the contrast to require an adjustment then it will have an effect on exposure and will require the scene to be re-metered. I find it interesting that there is one person here that has spent all his time reading books and so little time taking photographs. That he believes that a multiple photographs can be taken after a single meter reading because the exposure hasn't changed, but the contrast needs to be re-meter prior to every shot.
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Michael Scarpitti - 24 Sep 2003 14:17 GMT > > If you sit in the same seat all day, shoot from the same angle, the > > teams don't move about on the field, the sun doesn't move, and there [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Now tell me I'm wrong. Make my day. I've been on the sidelines for many OSU games. You want to stay ahead of the LOS or behind it to get the right kind of shots on offfence or defence.
J Stafford - 24 Sep 2003 14:43 GMT > > When one shoots football, position is critical. Many good sports > > photographers know this and don't move from the spot. The live a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of the LOS or behind it to get the right kind of shots on offfence or > defence. Oh, college ball of what, thirty years ago? Well, I'll take the advice of two photographers I know who have been shooting pro football for over twenty years who tell me that position is critical and one has to make that position early. Each of these photographers is particularly distinguished in his field.
Mark Wolenski - 25 Sep 2003 02:15 GMT ... and you use only one roll of film ...
> If you sit in the same seat all day, shoot from the same angle, the > teams don't move about on the field, the sun doesn't move, and there > are no clouds......... John Stockdale - 23 Sep 2003 07:52 GMT > >> > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film > >> > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > photographing sports. So doing the Ansel Adams style of landscape changing > backs isn't that big a deal. Of course you're right. Michael knows it too. He's just looking for another fight.
John Stockdale - 23 Sep 2003 05:49 GMT mikescarpitti@yahoo.com (Michael Scarpitti) wrote in message news: ....
> > Seems simple enough multiple backs one for N, N-1, N-2, N+1, N+2 etc.. > > As if! I'm really going to stop that football player and say 'could > you hold it a minute while I change to my N-1 back'? This is > ridiculous! Now you're being silly Michael. You are intelligent enough to know what this thread is about. Aren't you?
Dan Quinn - 24 Sep 2003 10:48 GMT RE: jo.sto@bigpond.com (John Stockdale) wrote
> You are intelligent enough to know what this thread is about. > Aren't you? I am. It refers back to comments made by Jorge Omar in a thread he started; "Shoulder or..." I believe the purpose of Ansel's application of the Zone system was to print any negative on ONE and ONLY ONE grade of paper. There are a few papers available which are produced in one grade only. I don't know of the 20s, 30s, or 40s, but I'm sure that graded papers were on the market from the 50s on. I know that Ansel "cheated". He did use two bath print processing, dilution and likely other "tricks" to fine tune print contrast. I don't know if he ever resorted to any other grade of print paper. A zone system corner-stone is grade 2 print paper. Think of that; no filters and all that implies, and only one grade of paper to stock. Dan
Jean-David Beyer - 24 Sep 2003 12:03 GMT > RE: jo.sto@bigpond.com (John Stockdale) wrote > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > that; no filters and all that implies, and only one grade of paper > to stock. Dan I was in his darkroom in Yosemite (1975 IIRC), and there was Agfa Brovira in several grades (and I heard someone saw him in a photo supply place buying Brovira grade 6), Ilford Galerie in several grades, and some yellow boxen.
It could be argued that he did not use this, and that it was there for the convenience of his assistants, but I doubt it.
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Michael Scarpitti - 24 Sep 2003 15:01 GMT > RE: jo.sto@bigpond.com (John Stockdale) wrote > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I believe the purpose of Ansel's application of the Zone system > was to print any negative on ONE and ONLY ONE grade of paper. That was his obsession, yes. It's foolish.
> There are a few papers available which are produced in one grade > only. I don't know of the 20s, 30s, or 40s, but I'm sure that graded > papers were on the market from the 50s on. Papers at that time were not available in as many grades and types as later. Contact papers were the norm for large format users.
> I know that Ansel "cheated". He did use two bath print processing, > dilution and likely other "tricks" to fine tune print contrast. Of course he did. The ZS as it is presented is a fraud.
> I don't know if he ever resorted to any other grade of print > paper. A zone system corner-stone is grade 2 print paper. Think of > that; no filters and all that implies, and only one grade of paper > to stock. Dan J Stafford - 24 Sep 2003 15:05 GMT >[...] > Of course he did. The ZS as it is presented is a fraud. And there ya go, folks. Scarpitti in a nutshell. Definite killfile. ZAP.
J Stafford - 24 Sep 2003 15:11 GMT
> Of course he did. The ZS as it is presented is a fraud. http://wind.winona.edu/~stafford/deadzone.html
Michael Scarpitti - 24 Sep 2003 21:35 GMT > > > Of course he did. The ZS as it is presented is a fraud. > > http://wind.winona.edu/~stafford/deadzone.html The zs as dogmatism teaches that negatives should fit the paper. As practised it does not need to be so.
You are a waste of my time.
Mark Wolenski - 25 Sep 2003 02:13 GMT It sure appears to me that you have not read the Adams book series and your comments are based solely on what you've heard on the subject from others. READ THE BOOKS, then comment on the validity of the approach. Otherwise, your comments are without any basis in fact. THAT is a waste of my time.
> > > Of course he did. The ZS as it is presented is a fraud. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You are a waste of my time. Frank Pittel - 25 Sep 2003 13:45 GMT Of course he hasn't read the book. It would go against his previsualized conception of what the zone system is all about. After all if he read the book he would have to come around to admiting he was wrong.
: It sure appears to me that you have not read the Adams book series and your : comments are based solely on what you've heard on the subject from others. : READ THE BOOKS, then comment on the validity of the approach. Otherwise, : your comments are without any basis in fact. THAT is a waste of my time.
: > john@stafford.net (J Stafford) wrote in message : news:<john-2409030911220001@ip-0-205.sprint-rev.hbci.com>... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] : > : > You are a waste of my time.
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Michael Scarpitti - 25 Sep 2003 17:43 GMT > It sure appears to me that you have not read the Adams book series and your > comments are based solely on what you've heard on the subject from others. > READ THE BOOKS, then comment on the validity of the approach. Otherwise, > your comments are without any basis in fact. THAT is a waste of my time. I've read all the books, cover to cover. Maybe 20-30 years ago. At the same time, I was reading Geoffrey Crawley's stuff about compensating film development and specifically as applied to 35mm practice, in the British Journal of Photography annuals from the late 60's and early 70's. This information proved much more valuable and practical for 35mm reportage work and was put into practice by me, though not systematically, as I did not have the time to do it. I just shot for the yearbook and had the lab process and print the film for routine pictures. For special section pics, beginning in 1971, I processed and printed the stuff myself, sometimes with UFG and sometimes with Acutol. I was always experimenting, though after a while I settled on using Tri-X and FP4, developed in UFG, mostly because they took the same developing time, and could be processed together in the tank at the same time, which was quick at 3.5 minutes, I believe.
Remember, I was in school, and working part time, and did not have the luxury of time you may think.
Andreas Feininger's books were an immense help, much more than Adams's.
So, yes I have read them. I have a complete understanding of the ZS, and have read White's Zone System Manual too. I do not use it, do not want to use it, and do not previsualize. I see.
I'm self-taught, though I did take a view camera course at OSU, but it did not affect my 35mm technique at all.
For a while I quit photography altogether in disgust, as I could not get away from people who kept asking me questions and bugging me wherever I went. Do you have ay idea what that's like? Now I understand why celebrities hate being bugged wherever they go, not that I was a celebrity, but I was known around town as somewhat of a photographic expert. People who came into the shop where I worked would see me on the sidelines at OSU games and when you're walking around with a 560mm Leitz Telyt around your neck you tend to stand out. Remember that's about 90,000 people, a lot of them prominent in the Central Ohio community. Doctors, lawyers, professors, etc. Many of these people could afford good equipment, and they came into the shop, where they bought stuff from me. They told their friends, and I got lots of referral business that way. When you do a good job for people, word spreads. After a while, though, I got sick of it.
As far as the ZS is concerned, it's neither necessary nor desirable for 35mm work, and not even necessary for LF. The ZS was formulated when contrast control in printing was severly limited, and perhaps changing negative contrast made more sense than changing print contrast. It certainly does not now. Compensating developers and films with S-shaped curves will do all that is needed for outdoor photography, whether LF, RF, or MF (35mm).
The second problem with ZS as it is taught is the idea of previsualization, which must be someone's idea of a sick joke. It has caused more boring, useless, inept, pointless photographs than anything else in history. What needs to be cultivated, friends, is the ability to 'see' in the first place. It stifles emotional reaction in its practioners, and leads them down the garden path. They never learn to see. I've witnessed this first-hand. I've seen photo students being taught ZS and their photos are INVARIABLY dull, lifeless, and utterly without redeeming value. The work of people like Sexton benfits from some nice scenery, but that's all. 've seen it all, way too mnay times before. It's all so precious and smug.
I was lucky enough to have studied the work of photojornalist types from the very beginning. I knew that making myself, my body, as sensitive and fine-tuned as possible was the key, much like an athlete does. My photographic skills are esentially athleticism. I've seen zoneheads taking pictures who are so incapable of even conceiving something like the 'decisive moment' as to be basically blind, deaf, and dumb. To extend the athleticism analogy further, these people are basically crippled. Their work lacks what is called 'impact' (photographic interest). My best work has lots of impact.
When looking at these old Makios for pictures to scan, I noticed many of the football pictures taken by others on the staff were late: they had waited for the 'decisive moment' to happen, and then tried to capture it. That won't work. You have to anticipate, almost in a 'zen' mode, what will happen. You don't 'think' about taking the picture, any more than you think about steering your car to go left or right. I worked on developing just this skill, and it is this skill that so many zoneheads utterly lack. If you don't make the effort to learn it, you won't, and if your head is being filled with Roman numerals, you never will understand what you're missing or why you're missing it.
Another thing I'd like to say is that the general standard of photography in the US in the period after about 1960 has slipped immensely. If you go back and look at photography magazines and books published between about 1930 and 1965 or so, you'll be astonished at the quality of the work, even by amateurs. Look at a typical 1955 Popular or Modern Photography at the pictures section and you'll se what I mean.
> > john@stafford.net (J Stafford) wrote in message > news:<john-2409030911220001@ip-0-205.sprint-rev.hbci.com>... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > > You are a waste of my time. jjs - 25 Sep 2003 18:24 GMT > I'm self-taught, [...] Too bad. You had a lousy instructor.
Mark Wolenski - 25 Sep 2003 19:50 GMT If you have indeed understand the series, then you would not be using the term "previsualization". "Visualization" is the term used by Adams. It refers to developing the ability to "see" the final print, then proceeding through a process defined by your own working environment to achieve the the results as were originally expected. Contrary to your comments (opinions) on the subject, the Zone System was developed to create a stable set of tools that allowed for variations in contrast of the original scene. It is just a tool. You seem to quite readily damn the hammer because the carpenter cannot build a straight wall. Certainly a great number of your "students" have the same type of inability to produce an "accepable image", no matter how much you drum "compensating film development" into their itty-bitty heads. Yet you are not ready to damn THAT tool, are you?
>>The zs as dogmatism teaches that negatives should fit the paper. Having not understood Adams' writings, I can see where you might come to the conclusion that he wrote of a dogmatic approach. Read the introduction of the books. It is here that he explains that his approach is open to variation. I have also come to the conclusion that your comments are based on a recollection of something that you might have read over 30 years ago. I sincerely doubt that your memory is as sharp as you contend. (What did you have for breakfast on the day that you read page 96 of "The Negative"?)
> Remember, I was in school, and working part time, and did not have the > luxury of time you may think. Since you obviously have the time now (you seem to spend a great amount of it here at the newsgroup) that you AT LEAST read the introduction as cited above. You might also consider reading the books from cover-to-cover. Then, and only then, will you be in a position to cite specific examples from the writings that may bolster your opinions.
Michael Scarpitti - 26 Sep 2003 03:43 GMT > If you have indeed understand the series, then you would not be using the > term "previsualization". "Visualization" is the term used by Adams. It > refers to developing the ability to "see" the final print, then proceeding > through a process defined by your own working environment to achieve the the > results as were originally expected. Mark: It doesn't matter, if that's the term he used, OK. I have only a vague idea at the time I take the picture what the print will look like, and often that suffices, because in some instances a straight print is not going to be interesting anyway. The point is that I can recognize photo opportunities in a split second, frame, focus, and shoot in a blink of an eye, and come out with something good 90-99% of the time.
> Contrary to your comments (opinions) on the subject, the Zone System was > developed to create a stable set of tools that allowed for variations in > contrast of the original scene. It is just a tool. I disgaree. Wholeheartedly and profoundly. And this is a source of substantial misunderstanding and animosity on this group. The ZS IS NOT just a tool. It preaches a certain way of conceiving the image, one that I find insensitive to what makes a photograph INTERESTING to begin with. It's too damned slow and labored. It deifies tones above content. It's not just a tool. It's a way of thinking, one with which I have no sympathy. I don't understand how anyone would want to approach image-making that way. It has no relationship to images that I perceive as being of high quality.
Nor does ZS address **at all** the needs of the 35mm user for image quality. It's was never intended to do that. It was developed for use with sheet film of the 1930's and 40's. At the very least it's obsolete. A system designed around maximum image quality involves certain principles that overlap a few ZS principles, but saying that does not mean that I'm using a modified ZS. Minimum exposure and minimum development are the key elements to obtain the highest-quality 35mm work. This obviously means that expansions are absolutely out from the get go, as a certain maximum devlopment time is not to be exceeded, not ever, and in fact there is no need to vary it at all, once a basic development time with a compensating developer and a suitable film, is established that fits one's equipment, working methods, and materials. My lenses put more contrast on the film, and my enlarging lens is phenomenally contrasty. This means I can use a little less development than I otherwise would with the same enlarger and a different camera and enlarging lens. This lessened development means even less grain and better sharpness.
Too much zonehead work is flat, of static subject matter, of pretty things or scenes. That doesn't cut it. The beauty of the object is not transferable to the photograph. The photograph has to start from scratch. It must earn our involvement on its own merits. The beauty of a photograph must come from the photographer's talent and sensitivity.
Photographers must discover (I'm not sure it can be taught) how to make interesting, arresting images. I taught myself how to do that. ZS classes would not, and I have seen the products of such classes so I know. I also have had many converssations with faculty who teach photography, so I know the mind-set. No-one who has taken such classes has ever impressed me with any outstanding images. During the entire time I was at OSU on the yearbook staff, there was one other photographer whose work ever impressed me as being consistently of an exceedingly high calibre: Lee Jenkins. He was a photojournalism major, I believe.
> You seem to quite readily damn the hammer because the carpenter cannot > build a straight wall. Huh? See above.
> Certainly a great number of your "students" have the same type of > inability to produce an "accepable image", no matter how much you drum > "compensating film development" into their itty-bitty heads. Yet you are not > ready to damn THAT tool, are you? I'm not sure I follow you here. What are you talking about?
> >>The zs as dogmatism teaches that negatives should fit the paper. > Having not understood Adams' writings, I can see where you might come to the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Remember, I was in school, and working part time, and did not have the > > luxury of time you may think.
> Since you obviously have the time now (you seem to spend a great amount of > it here at the newsgroup) that you AT LEAST read the introduction as cited > above. OK, I'll look at the damned books if that will make you happy. The details of his terminology are unimportant to me, because I don't use those terms.
> You might also consider reading the books from cover-to-cover. Then, and > only then, will you be in a position to cite specific examples from the > writings that may bolster your opinions. But! What if my results are fine and dandy by using FP4+, HP5+, or Delta 400 and Acutol? What if 98% of my negatives need no burning and dodging at all, and most fit within a narrow range of grades, from 2 1/2 to 3, or on occasion 4 for deliberate high contrast effect?
This is my method:
Expose for the shadow detail that I want. The highlights will be handled by the film's shoulder and compensating development. I don't have to deal with it at all, except in the most extraordinary cases.
Tricky, heh? When walking around on a typical sunny day, the exposure hardly changes unless you're dealing with something in the shade, and the exposure there must be evaluated a bit more carefully as it can be more variable.
Sometimes I deliberately let shadow detail go, and expose knowing the shadow detail will be minimal or non-existent. (the image 'Jackie' is such an image). I never see this in zonehead work. (There seems to be some fascination on the part of zoneheads with trying to capture every single photon-level of light, and developing to N-44 to do it.)
One's photographs don't gain in merit because you have to work harder to print them. On the contrary, it's a mark of skill in any business or art that you can produce work of uniformly high quality with little direct effort, i.e., efficiently, though the effort needed to acquire that skill might have been prodigious or protracted. The concert pianist learns over years, and spends hours and hours practicing, honing his craft and skill, and in performance that is realized in near-effortlessness. My photography usually is effortless, and has been almost since the beginning. But I spent hours and hours playing with the controls until I could operate the camera and lenses completely by touch, without looking at them. I can still do it. The ZS does not address this at all. It does not concern itself with sensibility, touch, reactivity, speed, camera handling, anticipation, composition, or any of the myriad things that are necessary to be a good reprtage photographer. And people who learn ZS in a classroom setting, especially those who have never handled a camera very much, will never develop that 'touch' that I'm talking about, unless it comes from somewhere else. I've been around ZS teachers and students, so I know what I'm talking about.
Skill in taking means less time spent in the darkroom. Which takes us back to my first point: It isn't better just because it's harder. Why spend two hours printing a negative (perhaps because you used TMY and T-Max developer in a high-brightness range outdoor setting) when you don't have to? What's the gain? Is there some perverse pleasure in it? Photographic exposure isn't all that hard. Why make it harder?
I choose to emphasize spontenaity and artistry in my shooting that can only come from supreme dexterity with the camera. That's why I don't use autofocus or autoexposure. Sometimes I miss a shot here or there, but that's OK. Odds are an auto camera would miss others too. You cannot make up for skill with automation of any kind. On the other hand, it is important to develop the 'right' skills to begin with.
I have made some new pictures this week with HP5+ and Acutol, and I'll be printing them this weekend. It's static subject matter, but I think you'll find it interesting. Yes, harsh light and shadows dominate the composition. Suprise surprise.
Perhaps Minor White is the one most responsible for the dogmatising of ZS. I read his book too.
Mark Wolenski - 26 Sep 2003 14:59 GMT > I disgaree. Wholeheartedly and profoundly. And this is a source of > substantial misunderstanding and animosity on this group. The ZS IS > NOT just a tool. "My basic approach to photography depends on the visualization of the final print before the exposure is made. When the print is conceived in the mind, either as a realistic statement or as an intentional departure from reality, the brightness values of the subject are determined and are placed appropriately on the exposure scale. The negative is exposed and developed for the desired rendition. The print from such a negative requires a minimum of development control, dodging, or the use of extreme paper grades. This procedure is not only efficient, but also gives the photographer at all times control of his craft and assurance of satisfactory results. With practice - following careful experimentation and full understanding of the equipment and materials used - this method becomes almost automatic."
"This book sets forth a working procedure based on my personal methods, which, however, do not have a rigid pattern, but a fluid and adaptable approach, and are subject to continual expansion and clarification."
Natural-Light Photography, Ansel Adams, New York Graphic Society, Boston, copyright 1952, ISBN 0-8212-0719-9, page vi
The "substantial misunderstanding" appears to be in your interpretation of what the Zone System is or is not.
> Nor does ZS address **at all** the needs of the 35mm user for image > quality. It's was never intended to do that. It was developed for use > with sheet film of the 1930's and 40's. At the very least it's > obsolete. Again, you prove your ignorance of Adams' writings.
> > Certainly a great number of your "students" have the same type of > > inability to produce an "accepable image", no matter how much you drum > > "compensating film development" into their itty-bitty heads. Yet you are not > > ready to damn THAT tool, are you? > > I'm not sure I follow you here. What are you talking about? To rephrase: once you've "taught" your students how to use your preferred set of tools, what percentage have gone on to produce exceptional images?
> The concert > pianist learns over years, and spends hours and hours practicing, > honing his craft and skill, and in performance that is realized in > near-effortlessness. In earlier postings, probably around the beginning of August, you made some disparaging remarks about the use of analogy between the musician and the photographer. Yet you use such a comment here.
> I've been around ZS teachers and students, > so I know what I'm talking about. No, you don't.
> Perhaps Minor White is the one most responsible for the dogmatising of > ZS. I read his book too. Perhaps you are wrong about Adams after all...
Michael Scarpitti - 26 Sep 2003 21:17 GMT > > I disgaree. Wholeheartedly and profoundly. And this is a source of > > substantial misunderstanding and animosity on this group. The ZS IS [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > The "substantial misunderstanding" appears to be in your interpretation of > what the Zone System is or is not. Who's Zone System? Adams's? White's? That's the problem, perhaps. I may be dealing with third-hand believers who don't understand the flexibility that (perhaps) Adams allowed. These latter-day zoneheads don't talk that way.
> > Nor does ZS address **at all** the needs of the 35mm user for image > > quality. It's was never intended to do that. It was developed for use > > with sheet film of the 1930's and 40's. At the very least it's > > obsolete. > > Again, you prove your ignorance of Adams' writings. If Adams changed his techniques, then more power to him.
> > > Certainly a great number of your "students" have the same type of > > > inability to produce an "accepable image", no matter how much you drum [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > To rephrase: once you've "taught" your students how to use your preferred > set of tools, what percentage have gone on to produce exceptional images? That depends entirely on their aesthetic capabilities and individual talents.
> > The concert > > pianist learns over years, and spends hours and hours practicing, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > disparaging remarks about the use of analogy between the musician and the > photographer. Yet you use such a comment here. Depends on how you use the analogy, perhaps.
> > I've been around ZS teachers and students, > > so I know what I'm talking about. > > No, you don't. About what they've said to me, that I heard with my own ears, in response to my own questions?
> > Perhaps Minor White is the one most responsible for the dogmatising of > > ZS. I read his book too. > > Perhaps you are wrong about Adams after all... Maybe about Adams himself, but he's dead...and the dogmatists are in charge...
Jean-David Beyer - 26 Sep 2003 23:05 GMT Michael Scarpitti wrote (in part):
>>"This book sets forth a working procedure based on my personal methods, >>which, however, do not have a rigid pattern, but a fluid and adaptable [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > flexibility that (perhaps) Adams allowed. These latter-day zoneheads > don't talk that way. When I used to belong to camera clubs, I noticed that most of the members were equipment freaks: concerned about what camera, lens, film, developer, etc., that they used. They did not even know what artistic concerns might be, much less have any idea how to address these concerns. Their images were often technically well done, though boring.
Those few that practiced the Zone System did not often understand it very well (and it is really very simple, really, just sensitometry in a more palatable form you can do in your head (when in the studio or in the field, or even in the darkroom).
Perhaps the easy way to distinguish real Zone System users from the talkers (as in chess: he talks a good game) is to notice that the users generally do not talk about it much, they just produce work. The talkers talk, run tests, show graphs, but seldom produce an image, and when they do, they are dull.
A real user of the Zone System is probably quite capable of talking about it, but only when asked. The "zoneheads" as you call them, may talk your ear off, but do not show you any interesting images.
Remember Alfred Stieglitz's rejection slip? "Technically Perfect: Artistically Rotten."
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Michael Scarpitti - 27 Sep 2003 18:01 GMT > Michael Scarpitti wrote (in part): > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > about it, but only when asked. The "zoneheads" as you call them, may > talk your ear off, but do not show you any interesting images. You may well have hit on something here.
> Remember Alfred Stieglitz's rejection slip? "Technically Perfect: > Artistically Rotten." Gregory W. Blank - 26 Sep 2003 23:23 GMT
> Maybe about Adams himself, but he's dead...and the dogmatists are in > charge... At least you'd like to be "eh Michael".
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Gregory W. Blank - 25 Sep 2003 21:00 GMT > I did take a view camera course at OSU, but it > did not affect my 35mm technique at all. Thats really too bad ya see because going from a larger to a smaller format usually ,makes one better at composition aka "seeing".
> For a while I quit photography altogether in disgust, >After a while, though, I got sick of it. And stayed that way it seems, quite "ILL"
>It's all so precious and smug. Why because he makes a lot more money than you teaching eager and willing students? Or because 5 out of 5 Galleries would show his work before yours?
> I knew that making myself, my body, as > sensitive and fine-tuned as possible was the key, much like an athlete > does. I am going to puke. Now you've succeeded I am about to be sick.
>My photographic skills are esentially athleticism. > My best work has lots of impact. From the editors pitching them in the waste can or from them hitting the floor in disgust?
> Another thing I'd like to say is that the general standard of > photography in the US in the period after about 1960 has slipped [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Popular or Modern Photography at the pictures section and you'll se > what I mean. Maybe you should read higher end magazines.
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Michael Scarpitti - 26 Sep 2003 03:57 GMT > > I did take a view camera course at OSU, but it > > did not affect my 35mm technique at all. > > > Thats really too bad ya see because going from a larger to a smaller format > usually ,makes one better at composition aka "seeing". Not at all. That was already my strong suite.
> > For a while I quit photography altogether in disgust, > >After a while, though, I got sick of it. > > And stayed that way it seems, quite "ILL" No, it was too easy. No challenges.
> >It's all so precious and smug. > > Why because he makes a lot more money than you teaching eager > and willing students? Or because 5 out of 5 Galleries would show his work > before yours? I'm not sure classes are the way to develop photographic talent. Today, there are classes for just about everything. In my day, you learned on your own. there were no 'classes' except formal view camera classes.
> > I knew that making myself, my body, as > > sensitive and fine-tuned as possible was the key, much like an athlete > > does. > > I am going to puke. Now you've succeeded I am about to be sick. You obviously have never played any sports requiring fine motor skills or timing or anticipation.
> >My photographic skills are esentially athleticism. > > My best work has lots of impact. > > From the editors pitching them in the waste can or from them hitting the > floor in disgust? What editors? The yearbook editors? They loved my work. I was given whole sections to do what I wanted with. I worked part time for Columbus Monthly Magazine for a number of years in the late 70's. My work was always appreciated.
> > > Another thing I'd like to say is that the general standard of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Maybe you should read higher end magazines. I have. The point is that even ***those*** showed much higher quality work by amateurs than you see today.
Do you always strive so hard to misinterpret what people say?
Gregory W. Blank - 26 Sep 2003 04:45 GMT > Not at all. That was already my strong suite. Taking classes where you did not learn anything.
> No, it was too easy. No challenges. Because you conquered the world and became world famous as a printer and general all round photo guy.
> I'm not sure classes are the way to develop photographic talent. > Today, there are classes for just about everything. In my day, you > learned on your own. there were no 'classes' except formal view camera > classes. Well if one actually has talent, one certainly could be able to teach it to those able to understand and willing to learn. People choose to learn from those they perceive as more knowledgeable than themselves, part of that involves being humble and down to earth. I spoke to John Sexton on one occasion,....I can tell you he is very down to earth for a man as well known as he is. As are most of the famous photographers I know.
> You obviously have never played any sports requiring fine motor skills > or timing or anticipation. You should not make a blanket statement whence you know not anything regarding someone's history. Sure I have an appreciation of sports and have participated in some, however I find it odd someone has to point a finger at themselves and say I have prowess.
> What editors? The yearbook editors? They loved my work. I was given > whole sections to do what I wanted with. I worked part time for > Columbus Monthly Magazine for a number of years in the late 70's. My > work was always appreciated. Yearbooks and school magazines don't make one a world reknowned and respected photographer, sorry to wake you up.
> I have. The point is that even ***those*** showed much higher quality > work by amateurs than you see today. Blame it on computers, maybe you should spend less time on your and more time actually taking pictures and submitting work, then you can prove how good you really are as opposed to relying on twenety year old work.
> Do you always strive so hard to misinterpret what people say? Actually its no trouble at all to find bits and pieces of the truly ridiculous Scattered among the babble of your postings.
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Michael Scarpitti - 26 Sep 2003 14:32 GMT > > Not at all. That was already my strong suite. > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Yearbooks and school magazines don't make one a world reknowned > and respected photographer, sorry to wake you up. Columbus Monthly is not a 'school magazine' I'll trouble you to know. And the quality of photography in the Makio during the years I was there was at times outstanding, and I'm not referring just to my own work.
Who said I was world-reknowned? I didn't. I am not a photographer. I am a human being who takes photographs and has taken photographs for a living. My life is my own to lead, and none of your business whether I choose not to be a pro photographer now.
> > I have. The point is that even ***those*** showed much higher quality > > work by amateurs than you see today. > > Blame it on computers, maybe you should spend less time on your and more time actually taking > pictures and submitting work, then you can prove how good you really are as opposed > to relying on twenety year old work. I shall.
> > Do you always strive so hard to misinterpret what people say? > > Actually its no trouble at all to find bits and pieces of the truly ridiculous > Scattered among the babble of your postings. I'm glad I'm not a full-time photographer anymore. I'd end up like you.
Gregory W. Blank - 26 Sep 2003 17:51 GMT > I'm glad I'm not a full-time photographer anymore. I'd end up like > you. Well your entitled to your opinion regardless of how misguided it in fact is. That's why we have laws and such, so those who feel compelled to deviate drastically are to be held accountable, in my opinion thats why so many here have taken issue with alot of your postings. Because they first and foremost deviate alot from common courtesy. As well strive to offend from the original post.
I really rather like helping others, I believe I do try not to berate others just because their opinions differ from my own. I do question sometimes so the context they speak within so it can be understood. Can you say the same, I think the evidence you have left to date states otherwise.
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Michael Scarpitti - 27 Sep 2003 02:29 GMT > > I'm glad I'm not a full-time photographer anymore. I'd end up like > > you. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > opinions differ from my own. I do question sometimes so the context they speak within so it > can be understood. Can you say the same, I think the evidence you have left to date states otherwise. I started out here very politely. I did, however make the mistake of trying to correct long-cherished but highly questionable beliefs. People turned viscous on me for that reason. I'm really a nice guy who wants to help people in photograhy, and have done exactly that here and in 'real life'.
Everything I have said about film and processing is verifiable by trial or supported by books and articles by authorities. To contradict that takes unmitigated gall, and represents impertinence. I will not allow people to contradict me without a good reason (perhaps if I left a qualification out), when I know damned well I'm right and they're wrong. Some things are matters of opinion, others are not. It IS NOT a matter of opinion that film gets grainier and fuzzier when you prolong development. It IS NOT a matter of opinion that lenses of higher quality will produce better images with better tonality. It IS NOT a matter of opinion that Kodak themselves designate Tri-X Pro film for use in a studio, not high-brightness range exteriors, because of its charactersistic curve shape:
"TRI-X 320 Films (320TXP) feature excellent tone gradation and brilliant highlights. They are especially well suited to low-flare interior lighting or flash illumination. They are also useful for portraiture with low-contrast backlighting outdoors."
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4017/f4017.jhtml
I was blasted for saying precisely this about TXP. What am I supoposed to say?
These and many other things are demonstrable and evident to any observer.
David Nebenzahl - 25 Sep 2003 21:25 GMT On 9/25/2003 9:43 AM Michael Scarpitti spake thus:
[...]
> As far as the ZS is concerned, it's neither necessary nor desirable > for 35mm work, and not even necessary for LF. The ZS was formulated [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > with S-shaped curves will do all that is needed for outdoor > photography, whether LF, RF, or MF (35mm). From St. Ansel's _The Negative_:
I favor developers of the _compensating_ or _semi-compensating_ type, meaning those that give proportionally full development to the shadow and middle values while limiting the degree of development to the in high values. A developer of the semi-compensating type, such as Kodak D-23, uses metol alone as a reducing agent in a solution of relatively low pH, or alkalinity, and can produce admirable results.
Guess you were sick that day in class, huh?
 Signature It's fun to demonize the neo-cons and rejoice in their discomfiture, but don't make the mistake of thinking US foreign policy was set by Norman Podhoretz or William Kristol. They're the clowns capering about in front of the donkey and the elephant. The donkey says the UN should clean up after them, and the elephant now says the donkey may have a point. Somebody has come out with a dustpan and broom.
- Alexander Cockburn, _CounterPunch_ (http://www.counterpunch.org), 9/17/03
Michael Scarpitti - 26 Sep 2003 03:50 GMT > On 9/25/2003 9:43 AM Michael Scarpitti spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Guess you were sick that day in class, huh? He's absolutely right, but this is not 'zone system'. That calls for reduced **time** (N-1, N-2, etc). So, my comment about 'zs' refers to reducing time only: I have championed semi-compensating development of a fixed time for all film development. The two things ('minus' development and compensation) are independent and not directly comparable.
Jaime Fischer - 24 Sep 2003 21:34 GMT En 2fd2ff8c.0309240601.44df3270@posting.google.com del 24/9/03 10:01, "Michael Scarpitti" <mikescarpitti@yahoo.com> escribió:
>> RE: jo.sto@bigpond.com (John Stockdale) wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > That was his obsession, yes. It's foolish. Hi
I don't know if it has been A. Adams purpose or obsession, but it doesn't mean you have to do it that way.
ZS is obout to know how to to expose and develop film to match the density range of the intented print paper. Nowhere it says you are restricted to have just one grade of paper.
Granted, the whole previsualization procedure means you have to previsualize in regard to _some_ paper. You may do it for only one sort of paper or if you wish, for others you have previously standarized. But at the end you will have to expose and develop for the one you want to print on.
>> I know that Ansel "cheated". He did use two bath print processing, >> dilution and likely other "tricks" to fine tune print contrast. > > Of course he did. The ZS as it is presented is a fraud. N, N+ or N- development are standarized procedures for helping you in getting known density values, but you may do it with some "fine tuning" tricks, if you know how. What really matters is _to get the intented density values_
Divided bath developing is just one way of doing it. If it works, why not?
Read A. Adams explanation on Moonrise, Hernandez. There you will find that everything is about achievement of the previsualized values.
From the calculations of the correct exposure for keeping moon texture, to the water bath development for rising the low values of the foreground giving the contrast range of the scene and the exposure choosen. Its a fine example of tke ZS working.
>> A zone system corner-stone is grade 2 print paper. Think of >> that; no filters and all that implies, and only one grade of paper >> to stock. This is not what I understand for ZS. You may do it if your whish, buy I allways have a lot of different papers standarized, and anytime I try ( Im still learning :-) to visualize a scene, I do it in regard to my known papers, trying to find out which one will render the scene closer to what I want, and I expose and develop for that paper.
Regards
jaime
Mark A - 24 Sep 2003 22:56 GMT > >>> You are intelligent enough to know what this thread is about. > >>> Aren't you? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > That was his obsession, yes. It's foolish. It was not an obsession. It was based on the idea that if you try for perfection/excellence, even with the normal things that usually go wrong in photography due to unforeseen or unanticipated events or mistakes, you will still get something decent to print. Adams describes many such mistakes, and in one case he had to use Agfa grade 5 to get a decent print (he later was able to use Oriental Seagull grade 4). People who shoot 8x10 (especially when backpacking in the Sierras) are not keen to bracket exposures.
Michael Scarpitti - 25 Sep 2003 03:33 GMT > > >>> You are intelligent enough to know what this thread is about. > > >>> Aren't you? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > able to use Oriental Seagull grade 4). People who shoot 8x10 (especially > when backpacking in the Sierras) are not keen to bracket exposures. What? Can't carry 50 8x10 film holders up the mountain?
Jean-David Beyer - 25 Sep 2003 03:35 GMT >>>>>> You are intelligent enough to know what this thread is about. >>>>>> Aren't you? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > What? Can't carry 50 8x10 film holders up the mountain? That's the easy part. Carrying the four car batteries to run the motor drive is the problem.
 Signature .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ Registered Machine 73926. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 10:30pm up 3:15, 3 users, load average: 2.25, 2.15, 2.10
Michael Scarpitti - 25 Sep 2003 14:15 GMT > >>>>>> You are intelligent enough to know what this thread is about. > >>>>>> Aren't you? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > That's the easy part. Carrying the four car batteries to run the motor > drive is the problem. What about the auto focus? It takes three autos to focus!
John - 25 Sep 2003 03:51 GMT >People who shoot 8x10 (especially >when backpacking in the Sierras) are not keen to bracket exposures. Especially Adams who had to shoot with glass plates for about 10 years.
Regards
John S. Douglas, Photographer http://www.darkroompro.com
Michael Scarpitti - 25 Sep 2003 04:03 GMT > En 2fd2ff8c.0309240601.44df3270@posting.google.com del 24/9/03 10:01, > "Michael Scarpitti" <mikescarpitti@yahoo.com> escribió: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > range of the intented print paper. Nowhere it says you are restricted to > have just one grade of paper. That was his motivation, though.
> Granted, the whole previsualization procedure means you have to previsualize > in regard to _some_ paper. I don't previsualize. I see.
Understand the difference?
Dan Quinn - 30 Sep 2003 09:45 GMT RE: Jaime Fischer <flamberge@tie.cl> wrote
> N, N+ or N- development are standarized procedures for helping you in > getting known density values, but you may do it with some "fine tuning" > tricks, if you know how. I carefully reread the post by Rick Rosen at search this group for, ansel blad backs. I'm sure it may be inferred from that post that Ansel treated each 2 1/4 square as a small sheet of film. With post selenium treatment he could up his N-1 to N and his N to N+1. In effect he could mix two zones on the same roll. Now it's interesting to contemplate resultant zone coverage if one were to process N-1 and N+1. Care to tackle that? Dan
John - 25 Sep 2003 04:13 GMT > I don't know if he ever resorted to any other grade of print >paper. A zone system corner-stone is grade 2 print paper. Think of >that; no filters and all that implies, and only one grade of paper >to stock. Dan I personally prefer G3 and Dektol 1:1 @ 70F.
Regards
John S. Douglas, Photographer http://www.darkroompro.com
Dan Quinn - 26 Sep 2003 09:34 GMT (Dan Quinn) wrote:
> > I don't know if he ever resorted to any other grade of print > >paper. A zone system corner-stone is grade 2 print paper. Think of > >that; no filters and all that implies, and only one grade of paper > >to stock. Dan > > I personally prefer G3 and Dektol 1:1 @ 70F. You and Paul Raphaelson. He has used for many years Forte Fortezo, grade three. Using two-bath development he stretches it from grade 1 1/2 to grade 4. Thats two and one half grades from a single grade of paper. His work may be seen from Google with his name entry. His glowing review of the paper is at .photographyreview.; enter, forte fortezo. Dan
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