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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / September 2003

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The Ansel Trick; Roll Film and the Zone System

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Dan Quinn - 22 Sep 2003 09:44 GMT
A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film
are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There
you will learn HOW TO.                                       Dan
Michael Scarpitti - 22 Sep 2003 14:40 GMT
> A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film
> are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There
> you will learn HOW TO.                                       Dan

They're not compatible. Not at all.

1. The PURPOSE of roll film is to shoot a lot of film at various times
and places, and of course to develop the film together precludes
INDIVIDUAL negative development.
2. Small format film suffers when given longer than normal devlopment
(expansions in ZS parlance).
3. Better methods for contrast control exist now than when the ZS was
developed, and materials are quite different.
David Nebenzahl - 23 Sep 2003 04:38 GMT
On 9/22/2003 6:40 AM Michael Scarpitti spake thus:

>> A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film
>> are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> and places, and of course to develop the film together precludes
> INDIVIDUAL negative development.

Excuse me, stop it right there, buddy.

Just what the f.ck gives *you* the almighty omniscience and authority to say
what the "purpose" of roll film is--or isn't?

This is doctrinaire horseshit of the first stink! Perhaps the stated purpose
is *your* purpose; fine. But to try to extrapolate from there to laying down
the law as to what "the purpose" of roll film is--well you, sir, really ought
to sit yourself down with a good analyst and have those delusions of grandeur
looked at.

I can think of many other perfectly valid "purposes" for roll film, as I'm
sure can many others here. Some of these purposes would definitely benefit
from the previsualization and Zone System methodology you so hate. And sure,
some other purposes do not: I believe the logical fallacy of your example
(humorous though it may have been) of politely asking a linebacker if he can
please stop while you change film backs is called a "red herring"; nobody is
suggesting that sports photogs get all Zoney with it.

I'm planning on doing some shooting using miniature cameras (aka 35mm) to do
some advance proofs on a subject that will definitely involve previsualization
 and Zone System methods (to the extent that my poor brain can implement
them). Am I going to be stopped by the Photography Police and have my
permission to take pictures revoked on account of this?

Signature

It's fun to demonize the neo-cons and rejoice in their discomfiture, but
don't make the mistake of thinking US foreign policy was set by Norman
Podhoretz or William Kristol. They're the clowns capering about in front of
the donkey and the elephant. The donkey says the UN should clean up after
them, and the elephant now says the donkey may have a point. Somebody has
come out with a dustpan and broom.

- Alexander Cockburn, _CounterPunch_
(http://www.counterpunch.org), 9/17/03

Michael Scarpitti - 23 Sep 2003 15:38 GMT
> On 9/22/2003 6:40 AM Michael Scarpitti spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> sure can many others here. Some of these purposes would definitely benefit
> from the previsualization and Zone System methodology you so hate.

I never have, and never will previsualize. It's too slow, or I'm too
fast.

> And sure,
> some other purposes do not: I believe the logical fallacy of your example
> (humorous though it may have been) of politely asking a linebacker if he can
> please stop while you change film backs is called a "red herring"; nobody is
> suggesting that sports photogs get all Zoney with it.

Do you or does anybody here work in reportage/sports photography?

> I'm planning on doing some shooting using miniature cameras (aka 35mm) to do
> some advance proofs on a subject that will definitely involve previsualization
>   and Zone System methods (to the extent that my poor brain can implement
> them). Am I going to be stopped by the Photography Police and have my
> permission to take pictures revoked on account of this?

I don't think you understand how inappropriate and harmful it can be
to teach ZS to 35mm beginners. The whole point of using the 35mm
camera is to be able to respond instantly and freely to a vraiety of
rapidly changing events, conditions, and situations. That precludes
doing ZS or previsualizing.
Alexis Neel - 25 Sep 2003 10:47 GMT
mikescarpitti@yahoo.com (Michael Scarpitti) wrote in message > I don't think you understand how inappropriate and harmful it can be
> to teach ZS to 35mm beginners. The whole point of using the 35mm
> camera is to be able to respond instantly and freely to a vraiety of
> rapidly changing events, conditions, and situations. That precludes
> doing ZS or previsualizing.

You facinate me Michael...to be able to continue to come up with
moronic statements day after day, and contrary to the fact that we all
know you truely know nothing about photography, except your own
personal preferences, is quite impressive.  My hats off to you.

Now, go bother other people for a while.

Thank you and good bye.
Michael Scarpitti - 25 Sep 2003 19:32 GMT
> mikescarpitti@yahoo.com (Michael Scarpitti) wrote in message > I don't think you understand how inappropriate and harmful it can be
> > to teach ZS to 35mm beginners. The whole point of using the 35mm
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Thank you and good bye.

You think thry're moronic because they don't jive with what you
believe to be true.

Did you understand what I meant about the curves? They tell the whole
story.

Tell you what. Let's call a truce. I'm surely not an ignorant fool,
and I'm sure you're not. I've had too much success (I mean that in the
technical sense) in my work to accept that.

The one who wants to debunk erroneous theories is always laughed at
and scorned, so I'm not surprised. The simplest way to prove one way
or the other is with comparative testing. Maybe you don't believe in
that. MY sucks for outdoor use.

So: I propose the following:

Let's have a little contest. I can send you a negative to print, and
print it myself. We'll send the prints to a third party for an opinion
on our prints. Or you can send me a negative that you think would be a
challenge. What do you say? Are you willing to back up your words and
claims? I am.
Alexis Neel - 26 Sep 2003 09:31 GMT
> > mikescarpitti@yahoo.com (Michael Scarpitti) wrote in message > I don't think you understand how inappropriate and harmful it can be
> > > to teach ZS to 35mm beginners. The whole point of using the 35mm
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> challenge. What do you say? Are you willing to back up your words and
> claims? I am.

Sure.  I'll send you my address.  Unfortunatly, I don't have difficult
negs or I'd send you one.
Dan Quinn - 25 Sep 2003 22:44 GMT
RE: webehi2@yahoo.com (Alexis Neel)

The thread "Ansel's Trick...." has had a very disapointing
response so far. Not a single poster to that thread has refered
to the "Trick" or bothered to comment on the Selenium boost.
I'll agree with you and give Mr. Scarpitti his second "Absurd"
for the month. His comments detract from what knowledge he
does convey. Of course if he is purposely conveying false
information then someone should see to it that he behave
himself.
 He'd be better off telling us to "Expose for the Shadows
and Develop for the Highlights". Better to tell us that than
not offer any alternative. I think he may be opposed to the
elaboration of that old axiom but not the axiom itself.
 But that brings us back to the subject of photography and
Ansel's application of that old axiom to roll film.
 For further INFORMATION search this NG for, ansel blad backs.  Dan
jjs - 25 Sep 2003 22:48 GMT
> RE: webehi2@yahoo.com (Alexis Neel)
>
>  The thread "Ansel's Trick...." has had a very disapointing
> response so far. Not a single poster to that thread has refered
> to the "Trick" or bothered to comment on the Selenium boost.

I'm waiting for a response, too. My uncontrolled experiment with it only
increased contrast. It did not help middle-tones in particular. I'd like to
think it would behave otherwise.
Alexis Neel - 26 Sep 2003 09:32 GMT
> > RE: webehi2@yahoo.com (Alexis Neel)
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> increased contrast. It did not help middle-tones in particular. I'd like to
> think it would behave otherwise.

I missed the thread or question...what was it??
Dan Quinn - 27 Sep 2003 08:28 GMT
> I missed the thread or question...what was it??

 A thread I started. "The Ansel Trick, Roll Film and the Zone System"
                                                                 Dan
Michael Scarpitti - 26 Sep 2003 18:26 GMT
> > RE: webehi2@yahoo.com (Alexis Neel)
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> increased contrast. It did not help middle-tones in particular. I'd like to
> think it would behave otherwise.

That supports my view. You need to use compensating development (not
contraction), which will cut highlight density and contrast while
maintaining or boosting mid-tone and shadow separation.
Dan Quinn - 30 Sep 2003 10:02 GMT
    Dan wrote:
> >  The thread "Ansel's Trick...." has had a very disapointing
> > response so far. Not a single poster to that thread has refered
> > to the "Trick" or bothered to comment on the Selenium boost.


> I'm waiting for a response, too. My uncontrolled experiment with it
> only increased contrast. It did not help middle-tones in particular.
> I'd like to think it would behave otherwise.

 Selenium after treatment of negatives DOES increase contrast. It's
supposed to. That is the Trick.                                  Dan
Darrell A. Larose - 22 Sep 2003 14:43 GMT
> A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film
> are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There
> you will learn HOW TO.                                       Dan

Seems simple enough multiple backs one for N, N-1, N-2, N+1, N+2 etc..
Michael Scarpitti - 22 Sep 2003 22:59 GMT
> > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film
> > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There
> > you will learn HOW TO.                                       Dan
>
> Seems simple enough multiple backs one for N, N-1, N-2, N+1, N+2 etc..

As if! I'm really going to stop that football player and say 'could
you hold it a minute while I change to my N-1 back'? This is
ridiculous!
Le Grande Raoul - 23 Sep 2003 01:51 GMT
> > > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film
> > > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> you hold it a minute while I change to my N-1 back'? This is
> ridiculous!

Not more of this!  Once again:

If the sports field is very bright with lots of contrast, the
photographer may want to develpp a little less and expose a little more
to control the contrast. This couold be seen as "N-1" developing.

Action is a different thing.  Controlling the contrast and getting a
very wide range of tonality is not what are important in action
photography.  What is important is the 'decisive moment'. If given the
time, the toinality and contrast of an 'action' picture could be
improved- but at the expense of the best quality of the action
photograph- the acton!

There are many different techniques for different situations.

Jeff
Frank Pittel - 23 Sep 2003 02:32 GMT
: > > > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film
: > > > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
: > you hold it a minute while I change to my N-1 back'? This is
: > ridiculous!

: Not more of this!  Once again:

: If the sports field is very bright with lots of contrast, the
: photographer may want to develpp a little less and expose a little more
: to control the contrast. This couold be seen as "N-1" developing.

: Action is a different thing.  Controlling the contrast and getting a
: very wide range of tonality is not what are important in action
: photography.  What is important is the 'decisive moment'. If given the
: time, the toinality and contrast of an 'action' picture could be
: improved- but at the expense of the best quality of the action
: photograph- the acton!

: There are many different techniques for different situations.

Somehow scarpitti has his mind made up that the contrast of a football field
is going to change with every shot.
Signature


Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
fwp@deepthought.com

J Stafford - 23 Sep 2003 02:40 GMT
> Somehow scarpitti has his mind made up that the contrast of a football field
> is going to change with every shot.

Indeed, and for that Mr. Scarpitti is hereby sentenced to get ten good
pictures from an impoverished highschool's night football game.
Frank Pittel - 23 Sep 2003 03:37 GMT
: > Somehow scarpitti has his mind made up that the contrast of a football field
: > is going to change with every shot.

: Indeed, and for that Mr. Scarpitti is hereby sentenced to get ten good
: pictures from an impoverished highschool's night football game.

And he has to do it using TMY and an Argus brick!!
Signature


Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
fwp@deepthought.com

David Starr - 23 Sep 2003 20:45 GMT
>: > Somehow scarpitti has his mind made up that the contrast of a football field
>: > is going to change with every shot.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>And he has to do it using TMY and an Argus brick!!

Nope.  Speed Graphic, 6 holders loaded with TMY, and use press 25
flashbulbs.

Been there, did that, only I used Tri-X.  Got a great shot of a power
sweep just before they trampled me.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Professional Shop Rat: 14,114 days in a GM plant.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Scarpitti - 23 Sep 2003 15:26 GMT
> > > > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film
> > > > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Jeff

Right, Jeff!
Michael Scarpitti - 23 Sep 2003 15:53 GMT
> > > > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film
> > > > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > As if! I'm really going to stop that football player and say 'could
> > you hold it a minute while I change to my N-1 back'? This is

> > ridiculous!
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> photographer may want to develpp a little less and expose a little more
> to control the contrast. This couold be seen as "N-1" developing.

No. You use compensating development. If you underdevelop you lose too
much shadow contrast. And if you use a higher grade of paper to
compensate, you lose the highlights again anyway because of that...and
you're right back to where you were before. Compensating development
softens the highlights and strengthens the shadows, which is just what
you need.

> Action is a different thing.  Controlling the contrast and getting a
> very wide range of tonality is not what are important in action
> photography.

That's right.

> What is important is the 'decisive moment'.

That's right.

> If given the
> time, the toinality and contrast of an 'action' picture could be
> improved- but at the expense of the best quality of the action
> photograph- the acton!

That's right. So for what other purpose would you use miniature/roll
film, except for action/reportage, where the 'decisive moment' is the
whole point?

> There are many different techniques for different situations.
>
> Jeff
J Stafford - 24 Sep 2003 01:19 GMT
> No. You use compensating development. If you underdevelop you lose too
> much shadow contrast. [blah blah blah]

So Mike, you got a life? It's been eight hours since I checked in here and
I've done a lot of work in that time. What have you done, but sit at your
keyboard and lurk, waiting to disperse your nonpracticing wisdom on the
rest of us?

May I suggest you actually get out here and make pictures, get a life, or
get the hell out of here?

It is hard. Leave the Usenet dream. Get a life.
Michael Scarpitti - 24 Sep 2003 14:16 GMT
> > No. You use compensating development. If you underdevelop you lose too
> > much shadow contrast. [blah blah blah]
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> It is hard. Leave the Usenet dream. Get a life.

Went out last night after work. Got a winner shot I've been working on
for some time. Light crossing a building at exactly 6:45 pm. Looking
at the negs now.
Darrell A. Larose - 23 Sep 2003 03:56 GMT
>> > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film
>> > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> you hold it a minute while I change to my N-1 back'? This is
> ridiculous!

As ridiculous as doing football with a Hasselblad! Sports are better
suited for 35mm or a DSLR. If one is using the Zone System they aren't
photographing sports. So doing the Ansel Adams style of landscape changing
backs isn't that big a deal.
Frank Pittel - 23 Sep 2003 04:38 GMT
: >> > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film
: >> > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
: > you hold it a minute while I change to my N-1 back'? This is
: > ridiculous!

: As ridiculous as doing football with a Hasselblad! Sports are better
: suited for 35mm or a DSLR. If one is using the Zone System they aren't
: photographing sports. So doing the Ansel Adams style of landscape changing
: backs isn't that big a deal.

You need to explain why the zone system can't be used when photographing a
football game. While I've never had the luck to be at the sidelines of a pro
game. I do have season tickets to the local pro team and on more then one
occasion I've brought a camera and photographed the action on the field.

Using the zone systemwas easy. From my seat I metered the shadow area to set
the exposure and the highlight to determine the contrast. For reasons unknown
to scarpitti neither the exposure changed from 12:30pm to after 1:00pm.
Signature


Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
fwp@deepthought.com

Michael Scarpitti - 23 Sep 2003 15:28 GMT
> : >> > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film
> : >> > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> You need to explain why the zone system can't be used when photographing a
> football game.

1. Clouds
2. Angles
3. Sun moves over game's duration

> While I've never had the luck to be at the sidelines of a pro
> game. I do have season tickets to the local pro team and on more then one
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the exposure and the highlight to determine the contrast. For reasons unknown
> to scarpitti neither the exposure changed from 12:30pm to after 1:00pm.

Cloudless day?
Michael Scarpitti - 23 Sep 2003 20:45 GMT
> : >> > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film
> : >> > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> the exposure and the highlight to determine the contrast. For reasons unknown
> to scarpitti neither the exposure changed from 12:30pm to after 1:00pm.

If you sit in the same seat all day, shoot from the same angle, the
teams don't move about on the field, the sun doesn't move, and there
are no clouds.........
J Stafford - 24 Sep 2003 01:21 GMT
> If you sit in the same seat all day, shoot from the same angle, the
> teams don't move about on the field, the sun doesn't move, and there
> are no clouds.........

When one shoots football, position is critical. Many good sports
photographers know this and don't move from the spot. The live a
millisecond ahead of The Rest of Us and make good pictures.

Now tell me I'm wrong. Make my day.
Frank Pittel - 24 Sep 2003 04:42 GMT
: > If you sit in the same seat all day, shoot from the same angle, the
: > teams don't move about on the field, the sun doesn't move, and there
: > are no clouds.........

: When one shoots football, position is critical. Many good sports
: photographers know this and don't move from the spot. The live a
: millisecond ahead of The Rest of Us and make good pictures.

: Now tell me I'm wrong. Make my day.

That's why there are a lot of photographers are the sidelines of a game.
Some of them move along the sidelines to get the sideline shots and others
stay in the endzone to get the endzone shots.

I don't know what it's like in the rest of the world, but here in Chicago
the sun doesn't move fast enough from noon to ~3pm  that there is going to be
significant changes in contrast in a 15 minute span. Any idiot knows that
if a cloud passing through has enough effect on the contrast to require an
adjustment then it will have an effect on exposure and will require the scene
to be re-metered. I find it interesting that there is one person here that
has spent all his time reading books and so little time taking photographs.
That he believes that a multiple photographs can be taken after a single
meter reading because the exposure hasn't changed, but the contrast needs
to be re-meter prior to every shot.

Signature

Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
fwp@deepthought.com

Michael Scarpitti - 24 Sep 2003 14:17 GMT
> > If you sit in the same seat all day, shoot from the same angle, the
> > teams don't move about on the field, the sun doesn't move, and there
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Now tell me I'm wrong. Make my day.

I've been on the sidelines for many OSU games. You want to stay ahead
of the LOS or behind it to get the right kind of shots on offfence or
defence.
J Stafford - 24 Sep 2003 14:43 GMT
> > When one shoots football, position is critical. Many good sports
> > photographers know this and don't move from the spot. The live a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> of the LOS or behind it to get the right kind of shots on offfence or
> defence.

Oh, college ball of what, thirty years ago? Well, I'll take the advice of
two photographers I know who have been shooting pro football for over
twenty years who tell me that position is critical and one has to make
that position early. Each of these photographers is particularly
distinguished in his field.
Mark Wolenski - 25 Sep 2003 02:15 GMT
... and you use only one roll of film ...

> If you sit in the same seat all day, shoot from the same angle, the
> teams don't move about on the field, the sun doesn't move, and there
> are no clouds.........
John Stockdale - 23 Sep 2003 07:52 GMT
> >> > A fiction exists which states that the Zone System and roll film
> >> > are not compatible. Search this NG for, ansel blad backs. There
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> photographing sports. So doing the Ansel Adams style of landscape changing
> backs isn't that big a deal.

Of course you're right.  Michael knows it too.  He's just looking for another fight.
John Stockdale - 23 Sep 2003 05:49 GMT
mikescarpitti@yahoo.com (Michael Scarpitti) wrote in message news:
....
> > Seems simple enough multiple backs one for N, N-1, N-2, N+1, N+2 etc..
>
> As if! I'm really going to stop that football player and say 'could
> you hold it a minute while I change to my N-1 back'? This is
> ridiculous!

Now you're being silly Michael.  You are intelligent enough to know
what this thread is about. Aren't you?
Dan Quinn - 24 Sep 2003 10:48 GMT
RE: jo.sto@bigpond.com (John Stockdale) wrote

>  You are intelligent enough to know  what this thread is about.
>  Aren't you?

  I am. It refers back to comments made by Jorge Omar in a thread
he started; "Shoulder or..."
  I believe the purpose of Ansel's application of the Zone system
was to print any negative on ONE and ONLY ONE grade of paper.
  There are a few papers available which are produced in one grade
only. I don't know of the 20s, 30s, or 40s, but I'm sure that graded
papers were on the market from the 50s on.
  I know that Ansel "cheated". He did use two bath print processing,
dilution and likely other "tricks" to fine tune print contrast.
  I don't know if he ever resorted to any other grade of print
paper. A zone system corner-stone is grade 2 print paper. Think of
that; no filters and all that implies, and only one grade of paper
to stock.                                                        Dan
Jean-David Beyer - 24 Sep 2003 12:03 GMT
> RE: jo.sto@bigpond.com (John Stockdale) wrote
>  
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> that; no filters and all that implies, and only one grade of paper
> to stock.                                                        Dan

I was in his darkroom in Yosemite (1975 IIRC), and there was Agfa
Brovira in several grades (and I heard someone saw him in a photo supply
place buying Brovira grade 6), Ilford Galerie in several grades, and
some yellow boxen.

It could be argued that he did not use this, and that it was there for
the convenience of his assistants, but I doubt it.

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Michael Scarpitti - 24 Sep 2003 15:01 GMT
> RE: jo.sto@bigpond.com (John Stockdale) wrote
>  
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>    I believe the purpose of Ansel's application of the Zone system
> was to print any negative on ONE and ONLY ONE grade of paper.

That was his obsession, yes. It's foolish.

>    There are a few papers available which are produced in one grade
> only. I don't know of the 20s, 30s, or 40s, but I'm sure that graded
> papers were on the market from the 50s on.

Papers at that time were not available in as many grades and types as
later. Contact papers were the norm for large format users.

>    I know that Ansel "cheated". He did use two bath print processing,
> dilution and likely other "tricks" to fine tune print contrast.

Of course he did. The ZS as it is presented is a fraud.

>    I don't know if he ever resorted to any other grade of print
> paper. A zone system corner-stone is grade 2 print paper. Think of
> that; no filters and all that implies, and only one grade of paper
> to stock.                                                        Dan
J Stafford - 24 Sep 2003 15:05 GMT
>[...]
> Of course he did. The ZS as it is presented is a fraud.

And there ya go, folks. Scarpitti in a nutshell. Definite killfile. ZAP.
J Stafford - 24 Sep 2003 15:11 GMT

> Of course he did. The ZS as it is presented is a fraud.

http://wind.winona.edu/~stafford/deadzone.html
Michael Scarpitti - 24 Sep 2003 21:35 GMT
>  
> > Of course he did. The ZS as it is presented is a fraud.
>
> http://wind.winona.edu/~stafford/deadzone.html

The zs as dogmatism teaches that negatives should fit the paper. As
practised it does not need to be so.

You are a waste of my time.
Mark Wolenski - 25 Sep 2003 02:13 GMT
It sure appears to me that you have not read the Adams book series and your
comments are based solely on what you've heard on the subject from others.
READ THE BOOKS, then comment on the validity of the approach. Otherwise,
your comments are without any basis in fact. THAT is a waste of my time.

> > > Of course he did. The ZS as it is presented is a fraud.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You are a waste of my time.
Frank Pittel - 25 Sep 2003 13:45 GMT
Of course he hasn't read the book. It would go against his previsualized conception
of what the zone system is all about. After all if he read the book he would have
to come around to admiting he was wrong.

: It sure appears to me that you have not read the Adams book series and your
: comments are based solely on what you've heard on the subject from others.
: READ THE BOOKS, then comment on the validity of the approach. Otherwise,
: your comments are without any basis in fact. THAT is a waste of my time.

: > john@stafford.net (J Stafford) wrote in message
: news:<john-2409030911220001@ip-0-205.sprint-rev.hbci.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
: >
: > You are a waste of my time.

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Michael Scarpitti - 25 Sep 2003 17:43 GMT
> It sure appears to me that you have not read the Adams book series and your
> comments are based solely on what you've heard on the subject from others.
> READ THE BOOKS, then comment on the validity of the approach. Otherwise,
> your comments are without any basis in fact. THAT is a waste of my time.

I've read all the books, cover to cover. Maybe 20-30 years ago. At the
same time, I was reading Geoffrey Crawley's stuff about compensating
film development and specifically as applied to 35mm practice, in the
British Journal of Photography annuals from the late 60's and early
70's. This information proved much more valuable and practical for
35mm reportage work and was put into practice by me, though not
systematically, as I did not have the time to do it. I just shot for
the yearbook and had the lab process and print the film for routine
pictures. For special section pics, beginning in 1971, I processed and
printed the stuff myself, sometimes with UFG and sometimes with
Acutol. I was always experimenting, though after a while I settled on
using Tri-X and FP4, developed in UFG, mostly because they took the
same developing time, and could be processed together in the tank at
the same time, which was quick at 3.5 minutes, I believe.

Remember, I was in school, and working part time, and did not have the
luxury of time you may think.

Andreas Feininger's books were an immense help, much more than
Adams's.

So, yes I have read them. I have a complete understanding of the ZS,
and have read White's Zone System Manual too. I do not use it, do not
want to use it, and do not previsualize. I see.

I'm self-taught, though I did take a view camera course at OSU, but it
did not affect my 35mm technique at all.

For a while I quit photography altogether in disgust, as I could not
get away from people who kept asking me questions and bugging me
wherever I went. Do you have ay idea what that's like? Now I
understand why celebrities hate being bugged wherever they go, not
that I was a celebrity, but I was known around town as somewhat of a
photographic expert. People who came into the shop where I worked
would see me on the sidelines at OSU games and when you're walking
around with a 560mm Leitz Telyt around your neck you tend to stand
out. Remember that's about 90,000 people, a lot of them prominent in
the Central Ohio community. Doctors, lawyers, professors, etc. Many of
these people could afford good equipment, and they came into the shop,
where they bought stuff from me. They told their friends, and I got
lots of referral business that way. When you do a good job for people,
word spreads. After a while, though, I got sick of it.

As far as the ZS is concerned, it's neither necessary nor desirable
for 35mm work, and not even necessary for LF. The ZS was formulated
when contrast control in printing was severly limited, and perhaps
changing negative contrast made more sense than changing print
contrast. It certainly does not now. Compensating developers and films
with S-shaped curves will do all that is needed for outdoor
photography, whether LF, RF, or MF (35mm).

The second problem with ZS as it is taught is the idea of
previsualization, which must be someone's idea of a sick joke. It has
caused more boring, useless, inept, pointless photographs than
anything else in history. What needs to be cultivated, friends, is the
ability to 'see' in the first place. It stifles emotional reaction in
its practioners, and leads them down the garden path. They never learn
to see. I've witnessed this first-hand. I've seen photo students being
taught ZS and their photos are INVARIABLY dull, lifeless, and utterly
without redeeming value. The work of people like Sexton benfits from
some nice scenery, but that's all. 've seen it all, way too mnay times
before. It's all so precious and smug.

I was lucky enough to have studied the work of photojornalist types
from the very beginning. I knew that making myself, my body, as
sensitive and fine-tuned as possible was the key, much like an athlete
does. My photographic skills are esentially athleticism. I've seen
zoneheads taking pictures who are so incapable of even conceiving
something like the 'decisive moment' as to be basically blind, deaf,
and dumb. To extend the athleticism analogy further, these people are
basically crippled. Their work lacks what is called 'impact'
(photographic interest). My best work has lots of impact.

When looking at these old Makios for pictures to scan, I noticed many
of the football pictures taken by others on the staff were late: they
had waited for the 'decisive moment' to happen, and then tried to
capture it. That won't work. You have to anticipate, almost in a 'zen'
mode, what will happen. You don't 'think' about taking the picture,
any more than you think about steering your car to go left or right. I
worked on developing just this skill, and it is this skill that so
many zoneheads utterly lack. If you don't make the effort to learn it,
you won't, and if your head is being filled with Roman numerals, you
never will understand what you're missing or why you're missing it.

Another thing I'd like to say is that the general standard of
photography in the US in the period after about 1960 has slipped
immensely. If you go back and look at photography magazines and books
published between about 1930 and 1965 or so, you'll be astonished at
the quality of the work, even by amateurs. Look at a typical 1955
Popular or Modern Photography at the pictures section and you'll se
what I mean.

> > john@stafford.net (J Stafford) wrote in message
>  news:<john-2409030911220001@ip-0-205.sprint-rev.hbci.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >
> > You are a waste of my time.
jjs - 25 Sep 2003 18:24 GMT
> I'm self-taught, [...]

Too bad. You had a lousy instructor.
Mark Wolenski - 25 Sep 2003 19:50 GMT
 If you have indeed understand the series, then you would not be using the
term "previsualization". "Visualization" is the term used by Adams. It
refers to developing the ability to "see" the final print, then proceeding
through a process defined by your own working environment to achieve the the
results as were originally expected.
 Contrary to your comments (opinions) on the subject, the Zone System was
developed to create a stable set of tools that allowed for variations in
contrast of the original scene. It is just a tool.
 You seem to quite readily damn the hammer because the carpenter cannot
build a straight wall.
 Certainly a great number of your "students" have the same type of
inability to produce an "accepable image", no matter how much you drum
"compensating film development" into their itty-bitty heads. Yet you are not
ready to damn THAT tool, are you?

>>The zs as dogmatism teaches that negatives should fit the paper.
Having not understood Adams' writings, I can see where you might come to the
conclusion that he wrote of a dogmatic approach. Read the introduction of
the books. It is here that he explains that his approach is open to
variation.
 I have also come to the conclusion that your comments are based on a
recollection of something that you might have read over 30 years ago. I
sincerely doubt that your memory is as sharp as you contend. (What did you
have for breakfast on the day that you read page 96 of "The Negative"?)

> Remember, I was in school, and working part time, and did not have the
> luxury of time you may think.
Since you obviously have the time now (you seem to spend a great amount of
it here at the newsgroup) that you AT LEAST read the introduction as cited
above.
 You might also consider reading the books from cover-to-cover. Then, and
only then, will you be in a position to cite specific examples from the
writings that may bolster your opinions.
Michael Scarpitti - 26 Sep 2003 03:43 GMT
> If you have indeed understand the series, then you would not be using the
> term "previsualization". "Visualization" is the term used by Adams. It
> refers to developing the ability to "see" the final print, then proceeding
> through a process defined by your own working environment to achieve the the
> results as were originally expected.

Mark:
It doesn't matter, if that's the term he used, OK. I have only a vague
idea at the time I take the picture what the print will look like, and
often that suffices, because in some instances a straight print is not
going to be interesting anyway. The point is that I can recognize
photo opportunities in a split second, frame, focus, and shoot in a
blink of an eye, and come out with something good 90-99% of the time.

>   Contrary to your comments (opinions) on the subject, the Zone System was
> developed to create a stable set of tools that allowed for variations in
> contrast of the original scene. It is just a tool.

I disgaree. Wholeheartedly and profoundly. And this is a source of
substantial misunderstanding and animosity on this group. The ZS IS
NOT just a tool. It preaches a certain way of conceiving the image,
one that I find insensitive to what makes a photograph INTERESTING to
begin with. It's too damned slow and labored. It deifies tones above
content. It's not just a tool. It's a way of thinking, one with which
I have no sympathy. I don't understand how anyone would want to
approach image-making that way. It has no relationship to images that
I perceive as being of high quality.

Nor does ZS address **at all** the needs of the 35mm user for image
quality. It's was never intended to do that. It was developed for use
with sheet film of the 1930's and 40's. At the very least it's
obsolete. A system designed around maximum image quality involves
certain principles that overlap a few ZS principles, but saying that
does not mean that I'm using a modified ZS. Minimum exposure and
minimum development are the key elements to obtain the highest-quality
35mm work. This obviously means that expansions are absolutely out
from the get go, as a certain maximum devlopment time is not to be
exceeded, not ever, and in fact there is no need to vary it at all,
once a basic development time with a compensating developer and a
suitable film, is established that fits one's equipment, working
methods, and  materials. My lenses put more contrast on the film, and
my enlarging lens is phenomenally contrasty. This means I can use a
little less development than I otherwise would with the same enlarger
and a different camera and enlarging lens. This lessened development
means even less grain and better sharpness.

Too much zonehead work is flat, of static subject matter, of pretty
things or scenes. That doesn't cut it. The beauty of the object is not
transferable to the photograph. The photograph has to start from
scratch. It must earn our involvement on its own merits. The beauty of
a photograph must come from the photographer's talent and sensitivity.

Photographers must discover (I'm not sure it can be taught) how to
make interesting, arresting images. I taught myself how to do that. ZS
classes would not, and I have seen the products of such classes so I
know. I also have had many converssations with faculty who teach
photography, so I know the mind-set. No-one who has taken such classes
has ever impressed me with any outstanding images. During the entire
time I was at OSU on the yearbook staff, there was one other
photographer whose work ever impressed me as being consistently of an
exceedingly high calibre: Lee Jenkins. He was a photojournalism major,
I believe.

>   You seem to quite readily damn the hammer because the carpenter cannot
> build a straight wall.

Huh? See above.

> Certainly a great number of your "students" have the same type of
> inability to produce an "accepable image", no matter how much you drum
> "compensating film development" into their itty-bitty heads. Yet you are not
> ready to damn THAT tool, are you?

I'm not sure I follow you here. What are you talking about?

> >>The zs as dogmatism teaches that negatives should fit the paper.
> Having not understood Adams' writings, I can see where you might come to the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> > Remember, I was in school, and working part time, and did not have the
> > luxury of time you may think.

> Since you obviously have the time now (you seem to spend a great amount of
> it here at the newsgroup) that you AT LEAST read the introduction as cited
> above.

OK, I'll look at the damned books if that will make you happy. The
details of his terminology are unimportant to me, because I don't use
those terms.

>   You might also consider reading the books from cover-to-cover. Then, and
> only then, will you be in a position to cite specific examples from the
> writings that may bolster your opinions.

But! What if my results are fine and dandy by using FP4+, HP5+, or
Delta 400 and Acutol? What if 98% of my negatives need no burning and
dodging at all, and most fit within a narrow range of grades, from 2
1/2 to 3, or on occasion 4 for deliberate high contrast effect?

This is my method:

Expose for the shadow detail that I want. The highlights will be
handled by the film's shoulder and compensating development. I don't
have to deal with it at all, except in the most extraordinary cases.

Tricky, heh? When walking around on a typical sunny day, the exposure
hardly changes unless you're dealing with something in the shade, and
the exposure there must be evaluated a bit more carefully as it can be
more variable.

Sometimes I deliberately let shadow detail go, and expose knowing the
shadow detail will be minimal or non-existent. (the image 'Jackie' is
such an image). I never see this in zonehead work. (There seems to be
some fascination on the part of zoneheads with trying to capture every
single photon-level of light, and developing to N-44 to do it.)

One's photographs don't gain in merit because you have to work harder
to print them. On the contrary, it's a mark of skill in any business
or art that you can produce work of uniformly high quality with little
direct effort, i.e., efficiently, though the effort needed to acquire
that skill might have been prodigious or protracted. The concert
pianist learns over years, and spends hours and hours practicing,
honing his craft and skill, and in performance that is realized in
near-effortlessness. My photography usually is effortless, and has
been almost since the beginning. But I spent hours and hours playing
with the controls until I could operate the camera and lenses
completely by touch, without looking at them. I can still do it. The
ZS does not address this at all. It does not concern itself with
sensibility, touch, reactivity, speed, camera handling, anticipation,
composition, or any of the myriad things that are necessary to be a
good reprtage photographer. And people who learn ZS in a classroom
setting, especially those who have never handled a camera very much,
will never develop that 'touch' that I'm talking about, unless it
comes from somewhere else. I've been around ZS teachers and students,
so I know what I'm talking about.

Skill in taking means less time spent in the darkroom. Which takes us
back to my first point: It isn't better just because it's harder. Why
spend two hours printing a negative (perhaps because you used TMY and
T-Max developer in a high-brightness range outdoor setting) when you
don't have to? What's the gain? Is there some perverse pleasure in it?
Photographic exposure isn't all that hard. Why make it harder?

I choose to emphasize spontenaity and artistry in my shooting that can
only come from supreme dexterity with the camera. That's why I don't
use autofocus or autoexposure. Sometimes I miss a shot here or there,
but that's OK. Odds are an auto camera would miss others too. You
cannot make up for skill with automation of any kind. On the other
hand, it is important to develop the 'right' skills to begin with.

I have made some new pictures this week with HP5+ and Acutol, and I'll
be printing them this weekend. It's static subject matter, but I think
you'll find it interesting. Yes, harsh light and shadows dominate the
composition. Suprise surprise.

Perhaps Minor White is the one most responsible for the dogmatising of
ZS. I read his book too.
Mark Wolenski - 26 Sep 2003 14:59 GMT
> I disgaree. Wholeheartedly and profoundly. And this is a source of
> substantial misunderstanding and animosity on this group. The ZS IS
> NOT just a tool.

"My basic approach to photography depends on the visualization of the final
print before the exposure is made. When the print is conceived in the mind,
either as a realistic statement or as an intentional departure from reality,
the brightness values of the subject are determined and are placed
appropriately on the exposure scale. The negative is exposed and developed
for the desired rendition. The print from such a negative requires a minimum
of development control, dodging, or the use of extreme paper grades. This
procedure is not only efficient, but also gives the photographer at all
times control of his craft and assurance of satisfactory results. With
practice - following careful experimentation and full understanding of the
equipment and materials used - this method becomes almost automatic."

"This book sets forth a working procedure based on my personal methods,
which, however, do not have a rigid pattern, but a fluid and adaptable
approach, and are subject to continual expansion and clarification."

Natural-Light Photography, Ansel Adams, New York Graphic Society, Boston,
copyright 1952, ISBN 0-8212-0719-9, page vi

The "substantial misunderstanding" appears to be in your interpretation of
what the Zone System is or is not.

> Nor does ZS address **at all** the needs of the 35mm user for image
> quality. It's was never intended to do that. It was developed for use
> with sheet film of the 1930's and 40's. At the very least it's
> obsolete.

Again, you prove your ignorance of Adams' writings.

> > Certainly a great number of your "students" have the same type of
> > inability to produce an "accepable image", no matter how much you drum
> > "compensating film development" into their itty-bitty heads. Yet you are not
> > ready to damn THAT tool, are you?
>
> I'm not sure I follow you here. What are you talking about?

To rephrase: once you've "taught" your students how to use your preferred
set of tools, what percentage have gone on to produce exceptional images?

> The concert
> pianist learns over years, and spends hours and hours practicing,
> honing his craft and skill, and in performance that is realized in
> near-effortlessness.

In earlier postings, probably around the beginning of August, you made some
disparaging remarks about the use of analogy between the musician and the
photographer. Yet you use such a comment here.

> I've been around ZS teachers and students,
> so I know what I'm talking about.

No, you don't.

> Perhaps Minor White is the one most responsible for the dogmatising of
> ZS. I read his book too.

Perhaps you are wrong about Adams after all...
Michael Scarpitti - 26 Sep 2003 21:17 GMT
> > I disgaree. Wholeheartedly and profoundly. And this is a source of
> > substantial misunderstanding and animosity on this group. The ZS IS
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> The "substantial misunderstanding" appears to be in your interpretation of
> what the Zone System is or is not.

Who's Zone System? Adams's? White's? That's the problem, perhaps. I
may be dealing with third-hand believers who don't understand the
flexibility that (perhaps) Adams allowed. These latter-day zoneheads
don't talk that way.

> > Nor does ZS address **at all** the needs of the 35mm user for image
> > quality. It's was never intended to do that. It was developed for use
> > with sheet film of the 1930's and 40's. At the very least it's
> > obsolete.
>
> Again, you prove your ignorance of Adams' writings.

If Adams changed his techniques, then more power to him.

> > > Certainly a great number of your "students" have the same type of
> > > inability to produce an "accepable image", no matter how much you drum
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> To rephrase: once you've "taught" your students how to use your preferred
> set of tools, what percentage have gone on to produce exceptional images?

That depends entirely on their aesthetic capabilities and individual
talents.

> > The concert
> > pianist learns over years, and spends hours and hours practicing,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> disparaging remarks about the use of analogy between the musician and the
> photographer. Yet you use such a comment here.

Depends on how you use the analogy, perhaps.

> > I've been around ZS teachers and students,
> > so I know what I'm talking about.
>
> No, you don't.

About what they've said to me, that I heard with my own ears, in
response to my own questions?

> > Perhaps Minor White is the one most responsible for the dogmatising of
> > ZS. I read his book too.
>
> Perhaps you are wrong about Adams after all...

Maybe about Adams himself, but he's dead...and the dogmatists are in
charge...
Jean-David Beyer - 26 Sep 2003 23:05 GMT
Michael Scarpitti wrote (in part):

>>"This book sets forth a working procedure based on my personal methods,
>>which, however, do not have a rigid pattern, but a fluid and adaptable
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> flexibility that (perhaps) Adams allowed. These latter-day zoneheads
> don't talk that way.

When I used to belong to camera clubs, I noticed that most of the
members were equipment freaks: concerned about what camera, lens, film,
developer, etc., that they used. They did not even know what artistic
concerns might be, much less have any idea how to address these
concerns. Their images were often technically well done, though boring.

Those few that practiced the Zone System did not often understand it
very well (and it is really very simple, really, just sensitometry in a
more palatable form you can do in your head (when in the studio or in
the field, or even in the darkroom).

Perhaps the easy way to distinguish real Zone System users from the
talkers (as in chess: he talks a good game) is to notice that the users
generally do not talk about it much, they just produce work. The talkers
talk, run tests, show graphs, but seldom produce an image, and when they
do, they are dull.

A real user of the Zone System is probably quite capable of talking
about it, but only when asked. The "zoneheads" as you call them, may
talk your ear off, but do not show you any interesting images.

Remember Alfred Stieglitz's rejection slip? "Technically Perfect:
Artistically Rotten."

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Michael Scarpitti - 27 Sep 2003 18:01 GMT
> Michael Scarpitti wrote (in part):
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> about it, but only when asked. The "zoneheads" as you call them, may
> talk your ear off, but do not show you any interesting images.

You may well have hit on something here.

> Remember Alfred Stieglitz's rejection slip? "Technically Perfect:
> Artistically Rotten."
Gregory W. Blank - 26 Sep 2003 23:23 GMT

> Maybe about Adams himself, but he's dead...and the dogmatists are in
> charge...

At least you'd like to be "eh Michael".

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Gregory W. Blank - 25 Sep 2003 21:00 GMT
> I did take a view camera course at OSU, but it
> did not affect my 35mm technique at all.

Thats really too bad ya see because going from a larger to a smaller format
usually ,makes one better at composition aka "seeing".

> For a while I quit photography altogether in disgust,
>After a while, though, I got sick of it.

And stayed that way it seems, quite "ILL"

>It's all so precious and smug.

Why because he makes a lot more money than you teaching eager
and willing students? Or because 5 out of 5 Galleries would show his work
before yours?

>  I knew that making myself, my body, as
> sensitive and fine-tuned as possible was the key, much like an athlete
> does.

I am going to puke. Now you've succeeded I am about to be sick.

>My photographic skills are esentially athleticism.
> My best work has lots of impact.

From the editors pitching them in the waste can or from them hitting the
floor in disgust?

> Another thing I'd like to say is that the general standard of
> photography in the US in the period after about 1960 has slipped
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Popular or Modern Photography at the pictures section and you'll se
> what I mean.

Maybe you should read higher end magazines.

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Michael Scarpitti - 26 Sep 2003 03:57 GMT
> > I did take a view camera course at OSU, but it
> > did not affect my 35mm technique at all.
> >
> Thats really too bad ya see because going from a larger to a smaller format
> usually ,makes one better at composition aka "seeing".

Not at all. That was already my strong suite.
 
> > For a while I quit photography altogether in disgust,
> >After a while, though, I got sick of it.
>
> And stayed that way it seems, quite "ILL"

No, it was too easy. No challenges.

> >It's all so precious and smug.
>
> Why because he makes a lot more money than you teaching eager
> and willing students? Or because 5 out of 5 Galleries would show his work
> before yours?

I'm not sure classes are the way to develop photographic talent.
Today, there are classes for just about everything. In my day, you
learned on your own. there were no 'classes' except formal view camera
classes.

> >  I knew that making myself, my body, as
> > sensitive and fine-tuned as possible was the key, much like an athlete
> > does.
>
> I am going to puke. Now you've succeeded I am about to be sick.

You obviously have never played any sports requiring fine motor skills
or timing or anticipation.

> >My photographic skills are esentially athleticism.
> > My best work has lots of impact.
>
> From the editors pitching them in the waste can or from them hitting the
> floor in disgust?

What editors? The yearbook editors? They loved my work. I was given
whole sections to do what I wanted with. I worked part time for
Columbus Monthly Magazine for a number of years in the late 70's. My
work was always appreciated.

>  
> > Another thing I'd like to say is that the general standard of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Maybe you should read higher end magazines.

I have. The point is that even ***those*** showed much higher quality
work by amateurs than you see today.

Do you always strive so hard to misinterpret what people say?
Gregory W. Blank - 26 Sep 2003 04:45 GMT
> Not at all. That was already my strong suite.

Taking classes where you did not learn anything.

> No, it was too easy. No challenges.

Because you conquered the world and became world famous
as a printer and general all round photo guy.

> I'm not sure classes are the way to develop photographic talent.
> Today, there are classes for just about everything. In my day, you
> learned on your own. there were no 'classes' except formal view camera
> classes.

Well if one actually has talent, one certainly could be able to teach it to those
able to understand and willing to learn. People choose to learn from those
they perceive as more knowledgeable than themselves, part of that involves being humble
and down to earth. I spoke to John Sexton on one occasion,....I can tell you
he is very down to earth for a man as well known as he is. As are most of the
famous photographers I know.

> You obviously have never played any sports requiring fine motor skills
> or timing or anticipation.

You should not make a blanket statement whence you know not anything regarding
someone's history. Sure I have an appreciation of sports and have participated
in some, however I find it odd someone has to point a finger at themselves
and say I have prowess.
 

> What editors? The yearbook editors? They loved my work. I was given
> whole sections to do what I wanted with. I worked part time for
> Columbus Monthly Magazine for a number of years in the late 70's. My
> work was always appreciated.

Yearbooks and school magazines don't make one a world reknowned
and respected photographer, sorry to wake you up.

> I have. The point is that even ***those*** showed much higher quality
> work by amateurs than you see today.

Blame it on computers, maybe you should spend less time on your and more time actually taking
pictures and submitting work, then you can prove how good you really are as opposed
to relying on twenety year old work.

> Do you always strive so hard to misinterpret what people say?

Actually its no trouble at all to find bits and pieces of the truly ridiculous
Scattered among the babble of your postings.

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Michael Scarpitti - 26 Sep 2003 14:32 GMT
> > Not at all. That was already my strong suite.
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> Yearbooks and school magazines don't make one a world reknowned
> and respected photographer, sorry to wake you up.

Columbus Monthly is not a 'school magazine' I'll trouble you to know.
And the quality of photography in the Makio during the years I was
there was at times outstanding, and I'm not referring just to my own
work.

Who said I was world-reknowned? I didn't. I am not a photographer. I
am a human being who takes photographs and has taken photographs for a
living. My life is my own to lead, and none of your business whether I
choose not to be a pro photographer now.

> > I have. The point is that even ***those*** showed much higher quality
> > work by amateurs than you see today.
>
> Blame it on computers, maybe you should spend less time on your and more time actually taking
> pictures and submitting work, then you can prove how good you really are as opposed
> to relying on twenety year old work.

I shall.

> > Do you always strive so hard to misinterpret what people say?
>
> Actually its no trouble at all to find bits and pieces of the truly ridiculous
> Scattered among the babble of your postings.

I'm glad I'm not a full-time photographer anymore. I'd end up like
you.
Gregory W. Blank - 26 Sep 2003 17:51 GMT
> I'm glad I'm not a full-time photographer anymore. I'd end up like
> you.

Well your entitled to your opinion regardless of how misguided it in fact is.
That's why we have laws and such, so those who feel compelled to deviate
drastically are to be held accountable, in my opinion thats why so many here have taken issue
with alot of your postings. Because they first and foremost deviate alot from common courtesy.
As well strive to offend from the original post.

I really rather like helping others,  I believe I do try not to berate others just because their
opinions differ from my own. I do question sometimes so the context they speak within so it
can be understood. Can you say the same, I think the evidence you have left to date states otherwise.

Signature

website:
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

Michael Scarpitti - 27 Sep 2003 02:29 GMT
> > I'm glad I'm not a full-time photographer anymore. I'd end up like
> > you.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> opinions differ from my own. I do question sometimes so the context they speak within so it
> can be understood. Can you say the same, I think the evidence you have left to date states otherwise.

I started out here very politely. I did, however make the mistake of
trying to correct long-cherished but highly questionable beliefs.
People turned viscous on me for that reason. I'm really a nice guy who
wants to help people in photograhy, and have done exactly that here
and in 'real life'.

Everything I have said about film and processing is verifiable by
trial or supported by books and articles by authorities. To contradict
that takes unmitigated gall, and represents impertinence. I will not
allow people to contradict me without a good reason (perhaps if I left
a qualification out), when I know damned well I'm right and they're
wrong. Some things are matters of opinion, others are not. It IS NOT a
matter of opinion that film gets grainier and fuzzier when you prolong
development. It IS NOT a matter of opinion that lenses of higher
quality will produce better images with better tonality. It IS NOT a
matter of opinion that Kodak themselves designate Tri-X Pro film for
use in a studio, not high-brightness range exteriors, because of its
charactersistic curve shape:

"TRI-X 320 Films (320TXP) feature excellent tone gradation and
brilliant highlights. They are especially well suited to low-flare
interior lighting or flash illumination. They are also useful for
portraiture with low-contrast backlighting outdoors."

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4017/f4017.jhtml

I was blasted for saying precisely this about TXP. What am I supoposed
to say?

These and many other things are demonstrable and evident to any
observer.
David Nebenzahl - 25 Sep 2003 21:25 GMT
On 9/25/2003 9:43 AM Michael Scarpitti spake thus:

[...]

> As far as the ZS is concerned, it's neither necessary nor desirable
> for 35mm work, and not even necessary for LF. The ZS was formulated
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> with S-shaped curves will do all that is needed for outdoor
> photography, whether LF, RF, or MF (35mm).

From St. Ansel's _The Negative_:

  I favor developers of the _compensating_ or _semi-compensating_ type,
  meaning those that give proportionally full development to the shadow
  and middle values while limiting the degree of development to the in
  high values. A developer of the semi-compensating type, such as Kodak
  D-23, uses metol alone as a reducing agent in a solution of relatively
  low pH, or alkalinity, and can produce admirable results.

Guess you were sick that day in class, huh?

Signature

It's fun to demonize the neo-cons and rejoice in their discomfiture, but
don't make the mistake of thinking US foreign policy was set by Norman
Podhoretz or William Kristol. They're the clowns capering about in front of
the donkey and the elephant. The donkey says the UN should clean up after
them, and the elephant now says the donkey may have a point. Somebody has
come out with a dustpan and broom.

- Alexander Cockburn, _CounterPunch_
(http://www.counterpunch.org), 9/17/03

Michael Scarpitti - 26 Sep 2003 03:50 GMT
> On 9/25/2003 9:43 AM Michael Scarpitti spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Guess you were sick that day in class, huh?

He's absolutely right, but this is not 'zone system'. That calls for
reduced **time** (N-1, N-2, etc). So, my comment about 'zs' refers to
reducing time only: I have championed semi-compensating development of
a fixed time for all film development. The two things ('minus'
development and compensation) are independent and not directly
comparable.
Jaime Fischer - 24 Sep 2003 21:34 GMT
En 2fd2ff8c.0309240601.44df3270@posting.google.com del 24/9/03 10:01,
"Michael Scarpitti" <mikescarpitti@yahoo.com> escribió:

>> RE: jo.sto@bigpond.com (John Stockdale) wrote
>>  
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> That was his obsession, yes. It's foolish.

Hi

I don't know if it has been A. Adams purpose or obsession,  but it doesn't
mean you have to do it that way.

ZS is  obout to know how to to expose and develop film to match the density
range of the intented print paper. Nowhere it says you are restricted to
have just one grade of paper.

Granted, the whole previsualization procedure means you have to previsualize
in  regard to _some_ paper. You may do it for only one sort of paper  or if
you wish, for others you have previously standarized. But at the end you
will have to expose and develop for the one you want to print on.

>>    I know that Ansel "cheated". He did use two bath print processing,
>> dilution and likely other "tricks" to fine tune print contrast.
>
> Of course he did. The ZS as it is presented is a fraud.

N, N+ or N- development are standarized procedures for helping you in
getting known density values, but you may do it with some "fine tuning"
tricks, if you know how. What really matters is _to get the intented density
values_  

Divided bath developing is just one way of doing it. If it works, why not?

Read A. Adams explanation on Moonrise, Hernandez. There you will find that
everything is about achievement of the previsualized values.

From the calculations of the correct exposure for keeping moon texture, to
the water bath development for rising the low values of the foreground
giving the contrast range of the scene and the exposure choosen. Its a fine
example of tke ZS working.

>> A zone system corner-stone is grade 2 print paper. Think of
>> that; no filters and all that implies, and only one grade of paper
>> to stock.      

This is not what I understand for ZS. You may do it if your whish, buy I
allways have a lot of different  papers standarized, and anytime I try ( Im
still learning :-) to visualize a scene, I do it in regard to my known
papers, trying to find out which one will render the scene closer to what I
want, and I expose and develop for that paper.

Regards

jaime
Mark A - 24 Sep 2003 22:56 GMT
> >>>  You are intelligent enough to know  what this thread is about.
> >>>  Aren't you?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> > That was his obsession, yes. It's foolish.

It was not an obsession. It was based on the idea that if you try for
perfection/excellence, even with the normal things that usually go wrong in
photography due to unforeseen or unanticipated events or mistakes, you will
still get something decent to print. Adams describes many such mistakes, and
in one case he had to use Agfa grade 5 to get a decent print (he later was
able to use Oriental Seagull grade 4). People who shoot 8x10 (especially
when backpacking in the Sierras) are not keen to bracket exposures.
Michael Scarpitti - 25 Sep 2003 03:33 GMT
> > >>>  You are intelligent enough to know  what this thread is about.
> > >>>  Aren't you?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> able to use Oriental Seagull grade 4). People who shoot 8x10 (especially
> when backpacking in the Sierras) are not keen to bracket exposures.

What? Can't carry 50 8x10 film holders up the mountain?
Jean-David Beyer - 25 Sep 2003 03:35 GMT
>>>>>> You are intelligent enough to know  what this thread is about.
>>>>>> Aren't you?
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> What? Can't carry 50 8x10 film holders up the mountain?

That's the easy part. Carrying the four car batteries to run the motor
drive is the problem.

Signature

  .~.  Jean-David Beyer           Registered Linux User 85642.
  /V\                             Registered Machine    73926.
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Michael Scarpitti - 25 Sep 2003 14:15 GMT
> >>>>>> You are intelligent enough to know  what this thread is about.
> >>>>>> Aren't you?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> That's the easy part. Carrying the four car batteries to run the motor
> drive is the problem.

What about the auto focus? It takes three autos to focus!
John - 25 Sep 2003 03:51 GMT
>People who shoot 8x10 (especially
>when backpacking in the Sierras) are not keen to bracket exposures.

    Especially Adams who had to shoot with glass plates for about 10 years.

Regards

  John S. Douglas, Photographer
    http://www.darkroompro.com
Michael Scarpitti - 25 Sep 2003 04:03 GMT
> En 2fd2ff8c.0309240601.44df3270@posting.google.com del 24/9/03 10:01,
> "Michael Scarpitti" <mikescarpitti@yahoo.com> escribió:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> range of the intented print paper. Nowhere it says you are restricted to
> have just one grade of paper.

That was his motivation, though.

> Granted, the whole previsualization procedure means you have to previsualize
> in  regard to _some_ paper.

I don't previsualize. I see.

Understand the difference?
Dan Quinn - 30 Sep 2003 09:45 GMT
RE: Jaime Fischer <flamberge@tie.cl> wrote

> N, N+ or N- development are standarized procedures for helping you in
> getting known density values, but you may do it with some "fine tuning"
> tricks, if you know how.

 I carefully reread the post by Rick Rosen at search this group for,
ansel blad backs.
 I'm sure it may be inferred from that post that Ansel treated each
2 1/4 square as a small sheet of film. With post selenium treatment
he could up his N-1 to N and his N to N+1. In effect he could mix
two zones on the same roll.
 Now it's interesting to contemplate resultant zone coverage if one
were to process N-1 and N+1. Care to tackle that?                Dan
John - 25 Sep 2003 04:13 GMT
>   I don't know if he ever resorted to any other grade of print
>paper. A zone system corner-stone is grade 2 print paper. Think of
>that; no filters and all that implies, and only one grade of paper
>to stock.                                                        Dan

    I personally prefer G3 and Dektol 1:1 @ 70F.

Regards

  John S. Douglas, Photographer
    http://www.darkroompro.com
Dan Quinn - 26 Sep 2003 09:34 GMT
 (Dan Quinn) wrote:

> >   I don't know if he ever resorted to any other grade of print
> >paper. A zone system corner-stone is grade 2 print paper. Think of
> >that; no filters and all that implies, and only one grade of paper
> >to stock.                                                      Dan
>
>     I personally prefer G3 and Dektol 1:1 @ 70F.

 You and Paul Raphaelson. He has used for many years Forte Fortezo,
grade three. Using two-bath development he stretches it from grade
1 1/2 to grade 4. Thats two and one half grades from a single
grade of paper.
 His work may be seen from Google with his name entry. His glowing
review of the paper is at .photographyreview.; enter, forte fortezo.
                                                                 Dan