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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / December 2005where can you buy rodinal lately?
I noticed a few weeks back, B&H delisted rodinal on their website, and they seemed to be the last of the big NYC photo shops to have it. Anyone know of a reliable source? I'm in the NY/NJ area. >I noticed a few weeks back, B&H delisted rodinal on their website, and >they seemed to be the last of the big NYC photo shops to have it. >Anyone know of a reliable source? I'm in the NY/NJ area. If you can find it, it's going to be on the dusty backshelf of some forgotten shop. Agfa is no more, and everyone who wanted to stock up on Rodinal has done so over the last month.  SignatureStrange, Geometrical Hinges: http://rob.rnovak.net > >I noticed a few weeks back, B&H delisted rodinal on their website, and > >they seemed to be the last of the big NYC photo shops to have it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > forgotten shop. Agfa is no more, and everyone who wanted to stock up > on Rodinal has done so over the last month. Or moved on to formulating their own. Signature"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 www.gregblankphoto(dot)com > Or moved on to formulating their own. I wonder, could another company make it or a substitute? Does anyone hold the rights to it or have they expired as they are so old? Signaturehttp://www.petezilla.co.uk >> Or moved on to formulating their own. > >I wonder, could another company make it or a substitute? Does anyone hold >the rights to it or have they expired as they are so old? The darkroom cookbook professes to have a clone recipe to what rodinal was at one time. Teaching yourself what is in a developer can go a long way to figuring out why they behave the way that they do; in this one -just 3 ingredients - the developing agent, the preservative, and the caustic alkili. Not anyway associated with either company , just a satisfied customer: - Artcraft Chemicals - Mike Jacobson, and JDPhotochem - Claire Vrana will both have between them, if not on thier own, all the things needed to put your own rodinal together. Mike will even make it if you quote darkroom cookbook formula#35. I believr both fiorms mail oder worldwide. If they cannot ship the needed sodium hydroxide to you, (post office gets annoyed when the package is abused by them, and proceeds leak and then burn its way through other packages and straight through to the bottom of thier step vans' aluminum floor), buy it from a local soap making supply store, if your hardware store does not sell a pure unadulterated lye. Red Devil, in Canada and USA is straight lye available at most hardwares. > > Or moved on to formulating their own. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > http://www.petezilla.co.uk Rodinal always was crap. Good riddance! >> Or moved on to formulating their own. > > I wonder, could another company make it or a substitute? > Does anyone hold > the rights to it or have they expired as they are so old? Calbe makes something very similar if not identical. Para aminophenol, the developing agent in Rodinal dates from about 1890 (I can't remember the exact year) and was probably patented at the time. Rodinal as a packaged developer dates back nearly that far. Any patents would have expired before most of us were born. +p-aminophenol is related to Metol but is generally inferior to it. The reason its used in Rodinal is that it can be mixed in very concentrated solution. Some people who have an alergic reaction to Metol do not to Rodinal but its popularity is mainly due to its great convenience and the very long life of the concentrate. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com > Calbe makes something very similar if not identical. Not surprising - Calbe *was* Agfa until the company was split up after the post-war division of Germany. Andrew Price <ajprice@free.fr> schrieb: >On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 06:15:36 GMT, "Richard Knoppow" >> Calbe makes something very similar if not identical. > >Not surprising - Calbe *was* Agfa Nope. Calbe was Orwo and Orwo was Agfa. ;-) To my knowledge the Calbe plant didn´t exist in "Agfa times". Gruss, Roman Signature"Ich fuehle Portraits. ich schmecke Landschaften. Frei von Belichtungsmesser, und Tiefenschaerfe." (aus "Pecker") >Nope. Calbe was Orwo and Orwo was Agfa. ;-) That's what I meant, of course; Agfa until 1964, then Orwo. >To my knowledge the Calbe >plant didn´t exist in "Agfa times". When I visited the old film plant in Wolfen in August (now a museum), I was told that the photographic paper division had always been in Leverkusen, and the photochemicals in Calbe. That may not be fully accurate, however, as a similar explanation about the change in name in 1964 was not entirely convincing (purely the political wish of the GDR government to dissociate itself with the Agfa name and, by extension, with IG Farben, rather than the result of legal action). Andrew Price <ajprice@free.fr> schrieb: >>To my knowledge the Calbe >>plant didn´t exist in "Agfa times". >When I visited the old film plant in Wolfen in August (now a museum), >I was told that the photographic paper division had always been in >Leverkusen, Parts of them - the Leverkusen plant belonged to Bayer and came to Agfa during the years of IG Farben, and it wasn´t the only paper coating facility within the company (others were Vephota/Tura in Wernigerode, Mimosa in Dresden, probably one in Wolfen, too). > and the photochemicals in Calbe. Originally the chemicals belonged to Berlin, where Agfa started out; they moved to Wolfen in the years between 1905-1914 and it took a while until the Wolfen plant was fully functional. Calbe started out as a gelatine producer to the Wolfen complex; according to a book dedicated to some Orwo anniversary in the late 1960s, the gelatine had to be imported/taken from Agfa West in exchange for film stock (just like "raw film", the film base came from Dormagen for quite a while into the 1950s) until the mid 1950s; only then a "GDR domestic" production of gelatine in needed quality and quantity was possible - that must have been the time when Calbe was set up >That may not be fully accurate, however, as a similar explanation >about the change in name in 1964 was not entirely convincing (purely >the political wish of the GDR government to dissociate itself with the >Agfa name and, by extension, with IG Farben, rather than the result >of legal action). It´s at least partially the truth. There was a time when Wolfen ran under Soviet command, representing a "German/Soviet Joint StockCompany Agfa Wolfen" (Sowjetische Aktiengesellschaft Agfa Wolfen "Photoplenka"); it was the time when 50% of that factory were taken and brought into the USSR, forming todays Svema of Ukraina. At that time the soviet managers failed to re-register the Agfa trademark in most countries in the world, something the representatives of Agfa Leverkusen didn´t - thus taking over the trademark, the labels and the legal sucession of the "old Agfa"; allthough Agfa Leverkusen was a restart, a new company based upon only a minor part of the former production network and "manpower". When Wolfen was renationalised, they learned about the faults of their new masters and legal actions were taken; but the trademark was lost in most relevant markets. Another aspect was that Wolfen and Leverkusen worked together for quite a while, reinstating the old factory relations, ignoring the new border - one made the base and gelatine, the other coated them, they shared distribution of final products... Only when the according treaties ran out, Wolfen accepted the loss and developed a new trademark, ORWO. If you are interested in it and able to read German - there is an interesting publication available "Von Agfa zu Orwo", written in 1992-1994 by the ORWO company archive. It should be available from the Wolfen museum... Gruss, Roman Signature"Ich fuehle Portraits. ich schmecke Landschaften. Frei von Belichtungsmesser, und Tiefenschaerfe." (aus "Pecker") [Agfa to Orwo] >It´s at least partially the truth. > >There was a time when Wolfen ran under Soviet command, representing a >"German/Soviet Joint StockCompany Agfa Wolfen" (Sowjetische >Aktiengesellschaft Agfa Wolfen "Photoplenka"); I see - a similar setup to the Wismut A.G. for operating the German uranium mines. >At that time the soviet managers failed to re-register the Agfa >trademark in most countries in the world, something the >representatives of Agfa Leverkusen didn´t - thus taking over the >trademark, the labels and the legal sucession of the "old Agfa"; >allthough Agfa Leverkusen was a restart, a new company based upon only >a minor part of the former production network and "manpower". That's what I'd always understood. [---] >Another aspect was that Wolfen and Leverkusen worked together for >quite a while, reinstating the old factory relations, ignoring the new >border - one made the base and gelatine, the other coated them, they >shared distribution of final products... They did mention that when I visited Wolfen last August >Only when the according treaties ran out, Wolfen accepted the loss and >developed a new trademark, ORWO. And that didn't happen until nearly twenty years after the end of the war - which was why I didn't swallow the argument about wanting to dissociate the Wolfen site from the misdeeds of IG Farben. Moreover, in the museum, they showed me a half-hour film from the early 1960s, where reference was openly and proudly made to the "Agfa" history and brand-name. >If you are interested in it and able to read German - there is an >interesting publication available "Von Agfa zu Orwo", written in >1992-1994 by the ORWO company archive. It should be available from the >Wolfen museum... I didn't see it in the bookshop there, but I'm going to give them a call to see if it is still available. Many thanks for the tip and a very interesting post. > Calbe makes something very similar if not identical. Para > aminophenol, the developing agent in Rodinal dates from > about 1890 (I can't remember the exact year) and was > probably patented at the time. Rodinal as a packaged > developer dates back nearly that far. Any patents would have > expired before most of us were born. As you say, the original Rodinal patents are long expired. Rumor has it that Agfa has tweaked the original formula over the years and that what they've been selling lately is proprietary (presumably a trade secret rather than a patented formula). That said, it should be VERY close to the original Rodinal formula and to the various Rodinal variants out there. I've seen several different "Rodinal-like" developer formulas on the Internet and in books. Mostly they differ in whether they use sodium or potassium hydroxide and sodium or potassium metabisulfite. I gather any combination will work, with the possible exception of sodium hydroxide with sodium metabisulfite, which some sources recommend against using together in these formulas. FWIW, there've been some recent eBay auctions for Rodinal that have fetched ridiculous prices. As others have pointed out in this thread, near-identical substitutes are available, as is the mix-it-yourself option. The hysteria will die down pretty soon, I expect. SignatureRod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking Rob Novak <yermama@rnovak.net> schrieb: >If you can find it, it's going to be on the dusty backshelf of some >forgotten shop. Nonsense. At least for now. Stocks are huge, far from depletion despite some of us stacking boxes and bottles of Rodinal in their darkrooms. And there is still fresh stuff coming in to the dealers, at least within Germany. >Agfa is no more, Agfa still is. Agfaphoto will drop dead in another three weeks, but Agfa-Gevaert still goes on to exist and some former Agfaphoto branches will continue to work and function in 2006. The Vaihingen chemistry plant has been handed over to A&O, the new owner, to produce chemistry for minilabs and approx. 10 days ago they set up a premature distribution - fresh Rodinal has been shipped to the dealers at old prices. And anyone asking you to pay more than you paid 6 months ago should hear a blunt "No, thanks" from you. >and everyone who wanted to stock up >on Rodinal has done so over the last month. I know a few who got a few bottles just this weekend - with the infamous "last edition" design, depicting the Agfaphoto "red sensor" logo in place of the classic red rhomboid. Gruss, Roman Signature"Ich fuehle Portraits. ich schmecke Landschaften. Frei von Belichtungsmesser, und Tiefenschaerfe." (aus "Pecker") The Photographers' Formulary has a version of the original, but they've decided to stop production of their dry chemistry kit in favor of a liquid mix. The new soup isn't on their shelves yet, but it will be soon. You can still find the powder kits around; the product name is "Formulary Paraminophenol Film Developer." B&H had some in stock as of last week. www.photoformulary.com -Lew > I noticed a few weeks back, B&H delisted rodinal on their website, and > they seemed to be the last of the big NYC photo shops to have it. > Anyone know of a reliable source? I'm in the NY/NJ area. > The Photographers' Formulary has a version of > the original, .... the product name is "Formulary > Paraminophenol Film Developer. > " www.photoformulary.com That new liquid version, is that FPFD or T-FPFD? Dan ...no clue, check with them. >> The Photographers' Formulary has a version of >> the original, .... the product name is "Formulary >> Paraminophenol Film Developer. >> " www.photoformulary.com > > That new liquid version, is that FPFD or T-FPFD? Dan > I noticed a few weeks back, B&H delisted rodinal on their website, and > they seemed to be the last of the big NYC photo shops to have it. > Anyone know of a reliable source? I'm in the NY/NJ area. Freestyle claims to still have some. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Freestyle claims to still have some. > Meanwhuile, you can try this. 700 ml water. Add 150 grams sodium sulfite and 14 grams of sodium hydroxide. Red Devil lye will do. When the solids are dissolved, bring the volume up to 1 liter with water, put the solution in a 1 liter storage container and add 40 grams of p-aminophenol (not the hydrochloride), shake well and serve. Use it as Rodinal. There will be some precipitate. This is the "few remaining crystals" of the standard recipe and is the protection aginst aerial oxidation. Of course, you don't believe me, but try it anyway. To what end? Rodinal is crap! > >>I noticed a few weeks back, B&H delisted rodinal on their website, and > >>they seemed to be the last of the big NYC photo shops to have it. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the standard recipe and is the protection aginst aerial oxidation. Of > course, you don't believe me, but try it anyway. crap or no crap: for those who still want a replacement: Calbe 09 (old brand) now made by ADOX, APH09. Said to be based on the pre WWII Rodinal formula. Maybe crap, but for some kind of photography I like it. Seems even to respect the film's speed (what could not be said about Rodinal). I developed late Agfa APX and Kodak Tri-X in it. But, I must admit, I liked APX much better in Acutol, but that's personal taste, istn't it, and de gustibus... Jan | To what end? Rodinal is crap! | [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] | > the standard recipe and is the protection aginst aerial oxidation. Of | > course, you don't believe me, but try it anyway. Right, Acutol trounces Rodinal... > crap or no crap: for those who still want a replacement: Calbe 09 (old > brand) now made by ADOX, APH09. Said to be based on the pre WWII Rodinal [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > | > the standard recipe and is the protection aginst aerial oxidation. Of > | > course, you don't believe me, but try it anyway. > Right, Acutol trounces Rodinal... Hmm, is someone playing rec.photo.darkroom Top Trumps? Pete Signaturehttp://www.petezilla.co.uk Hi Patrick: What's the rationale behind adding the p-aminophenol *after* bringing the volume up to 1l? -Lew >Hi Patrick: > What's the rationale behind adding the p-aminophenol *after* bringing >the volume up to 1l? >-Lew > > Who said anything about rationality? Actually, there is a reason. I am setting the strength of the Rodinal by the amount of hydroxide. If I then add enough p-aminophenol to assure a precipitate, I do away with the business of adding just enough hydroxide to dissolve all but a few crystals. It doesn't make a whole lot of difference how many crystals you have over the amount that the hydroxide will convert to the sodium ( or potassium if you used KOH) phenolate, which is soluble. When some of the stock is oxidized by oxygen, it produces a p-aminophenol monosulfonate and hydroxide. The hydroxide then activates some of the precipitated p-aminophenol. In short, which I hardly ever am, I wanted the precipitate to be in the storage container with the stock solution, and this seemed a good way to do it. The p-aminophenol does not change the volume of the solution enough to worry about. The molecules mostly fit in between the molecules of water and other stuff. Has anyone tried analyzing rodinal (or other developers) with a mass spectrometer? There is a technique called electrospray mass spectrometry that should work, thought one would have to dilute the developers considerably first. I won't go into the details, but by applying the right kind of mass spectrometry experiments one should be able to identify the chemicals and concentrations in a film developer. Alan Rockwood > >Hi Patrick: > > What's the rationale behind adding the p-aminophenol *after* bringing [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > enough to worry about. The molecules mostly fit in between the molecules > of water and other stuff. > Has anyone tried analyzing rodinal (or other developers) with a mass > spectrometer? There is a technique called electrospray mass > spectrometry that should work, thought one would have to dilute the > developers considerably first. I won't go into the details, but by > applying the right kind of mass spectrometry experiments one should be > able to identify the chemicals and concentrations in a film developer. There really is no need. There has been over the years much discussion about Rodinal here, and the consenus that I remember was that the formula was changed by Agfa "recently" (meaning sometime over the last 100 years) to make manufacturing easier, but the orginal formula and the "new" formula produced the same results. The formula may also have been changed to allow Agfa to patent the "new" Rodinal as the patent on the orginal formula expired a long time ago. So wether you buy "Original Agfa", "originaly Agfa", clone, copy, or make it yourself according to the published formulas, it makes little difference. IMHO, the AVERAGE photographer will have enough trouble getting exact dilutions at 1:50 or 1:100 for there to be more roll to roll variations due to dilution differences than due to different manufacurers of the same formula. As always, YMMV with skill, storage, the phase of the moon, etc. Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 IL Fax: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 You should have boycotted Google while you could, now Google supported BPL is in action. Time is running out on worldwide radio communication. > The formula may also have been changed to allow Agfa to patent the "new" > Rodinal as the patent on the orginal formula expired a long time ago. If it is patented it needs be published; publishing being the purpose of patents. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm > If it is patented it needs be published; publishing > being the purpose of patents. That would enable anyone who could make the formula to do so, but having a patent would prevent them from selling it. Having a trademark would prevent them from selling it under the trademarked name(s) e.g. Agfa and Rodinal. Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 IL Fax: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 You should have boycotted Google while you could, now Google supported BPL is in action. Time is running out on worldwide radio communication. Go to: www.photographersformulary.com. There coming out with a liquid just like Rodinal next month. Regards. Bob McCarthy theyankeesnapper |
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