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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2005

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Edges browning

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Mike - 27 Nov 2005 14:54 GMT
I've got a framed, matted print (however no glass) in which the edges are
starting to turn brown.  Print has been displayed for about 9 months.  RC
paper...forgot the brand.  Ilford I think.

My guess is that my fixer was bad and that the print is improperly fixed.
Anything else I should know?
Gregory Blank - 27 Nov 2005 16:42 GMT
> I've got a framed, matted print (however no glass) in which the edges are
> starting to turn brown.  Print has been displayed for about 9 months.  RC
> paper...forgot the brand.  Ilford I think.
>
> My guess is that my fixer was bad and that the print is improperly fixed.
> Anything else I should know?

That pretty much sums it up, improper fixing equals a host of issues.
Btw I assume this is a BW print,...you did not say.
Signature

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

www.gregblankphoto(dot)com

John - 27 Nov 2005 17:02 GMT
> That pretty much sums it up, improper fixing equals a host of issues.

But one would expect staining in the image itself as well, right ?

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Regards,

    John S. Douglas, Photographer & Webmaster
http://www.puresilver.org - http://www.legacy-photo.com

John - 27 Nov 2005 17:02 GMT
> I've got a framed, matted print (however no glass) in which the edges are
> starting to turn brown.  Print has been displayed for about 9 months.  RC
> paper...forgot the brand.  Ilford I think.
>
> My guess is that my fixer was bad and that the print is improperly fixed.
> Anything else I should know?

Sounds like edge pentration to me. Was the image toned ? Also, are we  
talking about a quality frame ? I once had someone mount one of my prints  
in what turned out to be particle board painted with some textured paint.  
As to a remedy, I'd trim the edges 1/4" past the staining, rinse in a luke  
warm sulfite bath to open up the emulsion again and re-fix, re-tone and  
rewash.

Signature

Regards,

    John S. Douglas, Photographer & Webmaster
http://www.puresilver.org - http://www.legacy-photo.com

Richard Knoppow - 27 Nov 2005 20:48 GMT
> I've got a framed, matted print (however no glass) in
> which the edges are
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> improperly fixed.
> Anything else I should know?

  Probably not the fixer, the symptoms are wrong. More
likely its damage from the mounting. How is it mounted?

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Mono - 27 Nov 2005 21:22 GMT
"Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix.netcom.com> wrote in news:rYoif.2722$A23.679
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

>> I've got a framed, matted print (however no glass) in
>> which the edges are
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>    Probably not the fixer, the symptoms are wrong. More
> likely its damage from the mounting. How is it mounted?

And what is it mounted on?  Sounds like chemical contamination migrating in
from the mount.
Mike - 27 Nov 2005 21:29 GMT
>    Probably not the fixer, the symptoms are wrong. More
> likely its damage from the mounting. How is it mounted?

It could be!  I usually don't dry-mount RC paper, but this print is indeed
dry-mounted onto foam-core.  I keep my press set to about 190 degrees.  

The browning is all along the edges where it touches the mat.  No, I'm not
using expensive museum mat boards...just the cheap brand.  
John - 27 Nov 2005 22:19 GMT
> The browning is all along the edges where it touches the mat.  No, I'm  
> not
> using expensive museum mat boards...just the cheap brand.

Given that the image was not enclosed with the mat board, I'd have to  
wonder about a combination of poor processing and poor materials in the  
mat combining to effect the image.

Signature

Regards,

    John S. Douglas, Photographer & Webmaster
http://www.puresilver.org - http://www.legacy-photo.com

Mike - 28 Nov 2005 01:05 GMT
>> The browning is all along the edges where it touches the mat.  No, I'm  
>> not
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> wonder about a combination of poor processing and poor materials in the  
> mat combining to effect the image.

That is my guess as well.  I am sometimes sloppy with RC paper...
Gregory Blank - 28 Nov 2005 00:15 GMT
> >    Probably not the fixer, the symptoms are wrong. More
> > likely its damage from the mounting. How is it mounted?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The browning is all along the edges where it touches the mat.  No, I'm not
> using expensive museum mat boards...just the cheap brand.  

You state its an RC print, can you clarify whether its a silver base
paper? Some RC prints like those made on color paper like from a
one hour place use RC -paper that is dye based, if that is so I would say
it could be a result of Bleach fixer left on-in the paper,...these type
prints have been know to have yellowing in the white border areas.
Signature

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

www.gregblankphoto(dot)com

Mike - 28 Nov 2005 01:05 GMT
>> >    Probably not the fixer, the symptoms are wrong. More
>> > likely its damage from the mounting. How is it mounted?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> it could be a result of Bleach fixer left on-in the paper,...these type
> prints have been know to have yellowing in the white border areas.

Its B&W.  Ilford RC paper.  I got it for free at my local camera
shop...it might have sat on their shelf a LONG time for all I know.  Does
Ilford even make RA-4 paper anymore?

I'm 99% sure that the brown edges did not exist after I made the print.
Richard Knoppow - 28 Nov 2005 01:48 GMT
>>> >    Probably not the fixer, the symptoms are wrong.
>>> > More
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> I'm 99% sure that the brown edges did not exist after I
> made the print.

  The brown edges almost certainly are from something in
the mount. The browning is probably from sulfiding of the
image around the mount. Lack of fixing or washing can cause
sulfiding but its usually visible everywhere although it may
not be even.
  I've observed slight yellowing of prints stored in
original paper boxes for 10 years or more. These boxes are
not intended to be archival. I don't know what could be in
foam core that could cause the problem but I am not an
expert about that. Its certainly not from dry mounting. The
mounting tissue is archival and seals the paper from the
rear (RC doesn't need it). 190F is low temperature tissue
suitable for B&W RC and color papers.
  It is just possible that there could have been some
penetration of solutions into the paper support at the
edges. The plastic coating does not extend over the edges
but this is not often a problem unless wet times are very
extended. Since the prints are dry mounted its hard to know
what to do about them. If you can remove them its possible
the stain could be removed by bleaching and redeveloping.
  For display prints on either RC or fiber its a good idea
either to treat the print with a stabilizer like Agfa Sistan
or tone it in a sulfiding developer. Sistan is not as good
protection as toning but does not affect the color or
density of the print. For slight toning with attendant
protection a Polysulfide toner like Kodak Brown Toner, Kodak
T-8 toner, or Agfa Viradon are suitable. These tone all
densities evenly so will proved significant protection with
even slight toning. Gold toner is also a good protectant but
is too expensive for routine use.
 When a print is on display it is subjected to all sorts of
polutants in the air which can attack the image, even if the
mounting materials are safe. Modern RC paper is probably as
stable as fiber base but life in the big city is not healthy
for either so the protective solutions become necessities.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

 
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