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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2005

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Efke film developing

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pslaviero@interfree.it - 23 Nov 2005 18:19 GMT
Hi, I've another problem. I have a large amount of EFKE 25 ISO film,
but it is no more possible to find here Rodinal! So I'm looking for
another developer. I've seen it is possible to use D76 for example.
Anyone have experience with it?

Thank you to all.

P.
Richard Knoppow - 23 Nov 2005 18:32 GMT
> Hi, I've another problem. I have a large amount of EFKE 25
> ISO film,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> P.

  Any standard developer will work with it. From my
experience with other films times for D-76 full strength
will be similar to those for Rodinal at 1:25 and for D-76
1:1 about the same as Rodinal 1:50.  If you have been using
Rodinal at high dilutions to enhance acutance its more
difficult to find a replacment for it.
  Can you find Calbe chemistry where you are, they are
supposed to be making a developer very similar, if not
identical, to Rodinal.
  I sure hope Agfa Photo can find a way to survive its
current troubles.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

pslaviero@interfree.it - 23 Nov 2005 19:08 GMT
Unfortunatly I'm not able to find Calbe products. And efefctively I've
used a 1+100 diluition with Rodinal. I've found on Steve Anchell book
the Crawley's FX1  formulation. I'm a chemist and in my lab I have all
components. Anchell says this is a good developer for slow -speed
films. What do you think about this?

P.
Nick Zentena - 23 Nov 2005 19:46 GMT
> Unfortunatly I'm not able to find Calbe products. And efefctively I've
> used a 1+100 diluition with Rodinal. I've found on Steve Anchell book
> the Crawley's FX1  formulation. I'm a chemist and in my lab I have all
> components. Anchell says this is a good developer for slow -speed
> films. What do you think about this?

 If you have access to chemicals then why not mix your own rodinal?
 
 http://www.digitaltruth.com/techdata/rodinal.php
 
 That one claims to be the a Rodinal formula.
 
 Nick

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Rod Smith - 23 Nov 2005 20:32 GMT
> Unfortunatly I'm not able to find Calbe products. And efefctively I've
> used a 1+100 diluition with Rodinal. I've found on Steve Anchell book
> the Crawley's FX1  formulation. I'm a chemist and in my lab I have all
> components. Anchell says this is a good developer for slow -speed
> films. What do you think about this?

I've no experience with FX-1, but if you're able to mix your own
developers from scratch, you might want to consider Suzuki's DS-12:

http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/film-dev-recommend.html

I've not used it with Efke films, but I've been trying it with some
others, including Ilford Pan F+ and Fomapan 200, and I like the negatives
I get from it. Unfortunately, there are no times for Efke films in DS-12
in the Massive Dev Chart, or even for Efke in Ilfosol S (the developer
Suzuki recommends basing DS-12 developing time starting points on), but if
you're willing to shoot a test roll and carve it up into pieces, you
should be able to get in the right ballpark pretty quickly.

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Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

John - 24 Nov 2005 05:13 GMT
> I've no experience with FX-1, but if you're able to mix your own
> developers from scratch, you might want to consider Suzuki's DS-12:
> http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/film-dev-recommend.html

YAAD = Yet Another Ascorbate Developer. As if the ones on the market from  
Eastman Kodak, Ilford Ltd. and Paterson haven't proven to be buggy enough.

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Regards,

    John S. Douglas, Photographer & Webmaster
http://www.puresilver.org - http://www.legacy-photo.com

Lloyd Erlick - 24 Nov 2005 16:06 GMT
>YAAD = Yet Another Ascorbate Developer. As if the ones on the market from  
>Eastman Kodak, Ilford Ltd. and Paterson haven't proven to be buggy enough.

November 24, 2005, from Lloyd Erlick,

But they're really healthy bugs! Not a cold
among them. And they wear sandals...

regards,
--le
Martin Jangowski - 24 Nov 2005 08:39 GMT
> I've no experience with FX-1, but if you're able to mix your own
> developers from scratch, you might want to consider Suzuki's DS-12:

> http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/film-dev-recommend.html

> I've not used it with Efke films, but I've been trying it with some
> others, including Ilford Pan F+ and Fomapan 200, and I like the negatives
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> you're willing to shoot a test roll and carve it up into pieces, you
> should be able to get in the right ballpark pretty quickly.

On my homepage you'll find sensitometric data for Efke films and
DS-12. These are density curves for different development times,
you'll have to decide which time is approbiate for your environment.

http://www.jangowski.de/sensitometry/

Martin
alanrockwood2000@yahoo.com - 29 Nov 2005 14:10 GMT
Martin,

Could you explain your sensitometry charts?

Thanks.

Alan

.
.
.
> On my homepage you'll find sensitometric data for Efke films and
> DS-12. These are density curves for different development times,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Martin
Martin Jangowski - 29 Nov 2005 14:53 GMT
> Martin,

> Could you explain your sensitometry charts?

These are the density values created by the 21 steps of an 0.15d steptablet.
Just put the exposure (second column going from 0.00 .. 3.00) on the x-axis
of a sheet and the value of one column (corresponding to one development
time) and you will get the density curve for this developer and time.

Three curves are found here:

http://www.jangowski.de/sensitometry/APX100.jpg

These graph shows two developments with identical times (the dark blue
and the violet curve) with DS-12 and one with DS-10 (the yellow one). It
is obvious that DS-10 isn't working well with APX100, it looses more
than 1 1/2 f-stops in the shadows (the part with a density of about
0.10) and gives about the same speed in the highlights (six f-stops
higher at 2.25 exposure).

Martin
Jan T - 23 Nov 2005 21:13 GMT
At those dillutions I'd advise you to switch to Adox R09, that is the late
Calbe, and it's based upon the Rodinal formula.
I ordered mine online on www.fotoimpex.de, they ship to Belgium (and I think
within Europe) for 10?. If you order some extra film, paper,... 10? is
almost free.

Mixing one's own Rodinal is OK if you have experience with mixing chemicals,
as the Rodinal formula is said to be potentially _very_ dangerous. I
wouldn't try it for myself, as both Rodinal and Adox R09 are relatively
cheap products, and hence not worth taking the risks

| Unfortunatly I'm not able to find Calbe products. And efefctively I've
| used a 1+100 diluition with Rodinal. I've found on Steve Anchell book
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
|
| P.
Lloyd Erlick - 24 Nov 2005 16:15 GMT
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 22:13:40 +0100, "Jan T"
<jant@TAKETHISAWAYBEFOREYOUMAILtiscali.be>
wrote:

>the Rodinal formula is said to be potentially _very_ dangerous.

November 24, 2005, from Lloyd Erlick,

I doubt this. Ordinary care in handling, as
is consistent with any darkroom activity, is
sufficient. Rodinal contains potassium
hydroxide, which is dangerous, but it is
easily within the ability of any adult to
handle it safely. It will not jump out of its
container or off or out of anything to attack
the user.

I used to withdraw commercial Rodinal stock
from its bottle with a mouth-operated
pipette. Once I was too enthusiastic and
ended up with a good swig of Rodinal. I
hastily spit it in the sink and swilled with
changes of cold water. I had no injury or any
effects at all. Most certainly something to
be avoided, but hardly a danger to any
prudent, rational person. A competent chemist
or other worker could easily teach a ten year
old to handle Rodinal or its components
safely.

I think darkroom or chemical safety should be
based on knowledge and facts and skill and
experience. Fear and irrational belief are
counterproductive.

regards,
--le
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________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

John - 25 Nov 2005 05:53 GMT
>  Rodinal contains potassium
> hydroxide, which is dangerous, but it is
> easily within the ability of any adult to
> handle it safely. It will not jump out of its
> container or off or out of anything to attack
> the user.

I'll never forget the first time I handled hydroxide. Back when I was in  
high school chemistry class. I had the smoothest hands in the class as it  
ate my fingerprints off !

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Regards,

    John S. Douglas, Photographer & Webmaster
http://www.puresilver.org - http://www.legacy-photo.com

Lloyd Erlick - 25 Nov 2005 14:54 GMT
>>  Rodinal contains potassium
>> hydroxide, which is dangerous, but it is
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>high school chemistry class. I had the smoothest hands in the class as it  
>ate my fingerprints off !

November 25, 2005, from Lloyd Erlick,

It's that funny English language! The word is
'handle', but it doesn't mean with your bare
hands, eh??

When I was in high school chemistry, the
mercury was in a little bowl under the
demonstration barometer. Every time class
began and the teacher was not in yet, that
puddle of mercury got dipped by many -- um,
hands ...

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Richard Knoppow - 24 Nov 2005 04:45 GMT
> Unfortunatly I'm not able to find Calbe products. And
> efefctively I've
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> P.

  I am not familiar with FX1 so can't comment on it.
  Two others have suggested on-line developer formulas. On
is on the Silver-grain site. This is run by Ryuji Suzuki who
is a very knowledgable chemist who has researched emulsion
making and other aspects of photo chemistry. His formulas
are trustworthy. The other site has a formula supposidly for
Rodinal but it does not look right to me. For one thing is
specifies sodium hydroxide where Rodinal contains Potassium
hydroxide. The main difference is in the solubility. The
Potassium salt is considerably more soluble in water than
the Sodium salt. Also, there is no indication in any other
Rodinal formula I've seen of the use of metabisulfite.
Rodinal does contain Potassium sulfite.
  The prodedure for making Rodinal does require care mainly
because of the generous amount of heat generated by the
hydroxide as it goes in solution. As a knowledgible chemist
this should not present any problems for you.
  High acutance developers were popular when film had much
less resoluton than it does now. Mainly, its purpose is to
compensate for poor film sharpness and poor optics. It does
so at the expense of greater grain and probably some loss of
actual resolution. If the EFKE film is similar to the
original Agfa film it should be single coated with a fairly
thin emulsion. The virtue of that is lack of scattering in
the emulsion with attendant gain in resoluton and sharpness.
 Since the actual formula for Rodinal is proprietary its
not available in any publication. Some pubished formulas may
be exact but many of them seem to be guesswork.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

John - 24 Nov 2005 04:59 GMT
> Unfortunatly I'm not able to find Calbe products. And efefctively I've
> used a 1+100 diluition with Rodinal. I've found on Steve Anchell book
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> P.

Rodinal is an excellent formula for fine-grained films however you will  
loose about 1/3rd to 1/2 stop of film speed. I personally would use D-23.  
It's easy to mix, keeps well and produces finer grained and sharper images  
than Rodinal. If you need a higher EI than 25, go with Microphen which  
will give you a good EI50 with this film.

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Regards,

    John S. Douglas, Photographer & Webmaster
http://www.puresilver.org - http://www.legacy-photo.com

John - 24 Nov 2005 05:17 GMT
> I'm a chemist and in my lab I have all
> components.

Kodak's D-23
Water @ 125F
Elon
Sod. Sulfite
Water to make    750.0ml
7.5g
100.0g
1.0L   
This has probably been the most utilized developer in the history of black  
and white photography ! It's simplicity and good all around working  
characteristics have endeared it to many fine art photographers.

BTW, if you are using TMX-100 or TMX-400 I strongly recommend this  
developer. It gives T-grained films the finest grain I've ever seen and  
keeps the highlights in check.

Development times for full strength at 70F are;
TMX -100 -- 9.5 min
TMY- 400 -- 8.0 min.

Development times for a 1:1 dilution at 70F are;

TMX -100 -- 14min.
TMY- 400 -- 12min.

Development times for a 1:3 dilution at 70F are;
TMX - 100 -- 21 min.
TMY - 400 -- 20min.

Elon - Metol
Monomethyl paraaminophenol sulfate - CH3NHC6H4OH)2H2SO4 Molecular Weight :  
344
Characteristic : Off-white crystalline solid
CAS No. - 55-55-0

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Regards,

    John S. Douglas, Photographer & Webmaster
http://www.puresilver.org - http://www.legacy-photo.com

Andrew Price - 24 Nov 2005 18:22 GMT
>Unfortunatly I'm not able to find Calbe products.

You can order them through Fotoimpex in Berlin:

<http://fotoimpex.de/CalbeFotochemie/index.html>

>And efefctively I've
>used a 1+100 diluition with Rodinal.

The Rodinal equivalent made by Calbe is the R09.
Frank Pittel - 28 Nov 2005 06:38 GMT
: Unfortunatly I'm not able to find Calbe products. And efefctively I've
: used a 1+100 diluition with Rodinal. I've found on Steve Anchell book
: the Crawley's FX1  formulation. I'm a chemist and in my lab I have all
: components. Anchell says this is a good developer for slow -speed
: films. What do you think about this?

I've been using a variation of fx-2 made by photographers formulary called
tfx-2. The advantage is that fx-2 gives better tonal graduation. I intend to
mix up my own version of fx-2 in the future.
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Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 28 Nov 2005 11:00 GMT
> I've been using a variation of fx-2 made by photographers formulary called
> tfx-2. The advantage is that fx-2 gives better tonal graduation. I intend to
> mix up my own version of fx-2 in the future.

I've had good results with it since it was Adox KB-14 (same film, but
different manufacurer and name) using Edwal FG-7. FG-7 is unavailable here
since the one store that carried it went out of business and the manfacturer
was sold.

The new manufacturer lists it as a "hazzardous product" and cannot be shipped
by air, so I can't get anyone to bring me a bottle back from the U.S. The
formula has not changed, but the definition of "hazzardous product" for
air shipping has (possibly post 9/11).

Geoff.

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Rod Smith - 23 Nov 2005 20:27 GMT
> Hi, I've another problem. I have a large amount of EFKE 25 ISO film,
> but it is no more possible to find here Rodinal! So I'm looking for
> another developer. I've seen it is possible to use D76 for example.
> Anyone have experience with it?

I've only shot two rolls of Efke KB25. I developed both in D-76, IIRC, but
I don't recall the times I used. I probably got them off of the Massive
Dev Chart:

http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.html

There are times there for several other developers, too, so have a look
and pick one that you like.

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Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

Nicholas O. Lindan - 24 Nov 2005 17:20 GMT
> Hi, I've another problem. I have a large amount of EFKE 25 ISO film,
> but it is no more possible to find here Rodinal! So I'm looking for
> another developer. I've seen it is possible to use D76 for example.

D76 will be a good choice for the film.

EFKE films are invented/developed/formulated to work with D76.  D76
is the standard developer used internationally to determine the
ASA/ISO speed of a film.

Almost ...

The 'standard developer' is very slightly different from packaged
Kodak D76 but the two work identically.  Ditto Ilford ID-11
and many many others.

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Andrew Price - 24 Nov 2005 18:23 GMT
>Hi, I've another problem. I have a large amount of EFKE 25 ISO film,
>but it is no more possible to find here Rodinal! So I'm looking for
>another developer. I've seen it is possible to use D76 for example.

Yes, Efke films work well with D76/ID11.
Frank Pittel - 28 Nov 2005 06:35 GMT
: Hi, I've another problem. I have a large amount of EFKE 25 ISO film,
: but it is no more possible to find here Rodinal! So I'm looking for
: another developer. I've seen it is possible to use D76 for example.
: Anyone have experience with it?

: Thank you to all.

: P.

I don't see any reason that any normal developer won't provide good
results with Efke-25. I for one have gotten incredible results with
Efke-25 with tfx-2. I'm using a "semi-stand" development of 5 seconds
of agitation every 3 minutes.

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-------------------
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you

UC - 28 Nov 2005 15:14 GMT
> Hi, I've another problem. I have a large amount of EFKE 25 ISO film,
> but it is no more possible to find here Rodinal! So I'm looking for
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> P.

Try 1:1 dilution for 4-5 minutes to start with...
 
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