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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2005Removing Edwal No Scratch
Is there another way to remove Edwal No Scratch from film other than the recommended cleaner, of which, I have none! > Is there another way to remove Edwal No Scratch from film other than the > recommended cleaner, of which, I have none! Good question! I'd like to know myself. Doing a water rinse for awhile helps, but there is still some residue. >> Is there another way to remove Edwal No Scratch from film >> other than the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > rinse for awhile > helps, but there is still some residue. Try 99% Isopropyl alcohol. This is Kodak's current recommendation for film cleaner. Rubbing alcohol has too much water in it and will streak. Many drugstores carry 99+%, its not expensive but you might have to ask for it. Another possibility is Naptha. Ronsonol lighter fluid is pure enough not to leave streaks. I would try both of these on some scrap film first. The _real_ solvent is 1,1,1,Trichloroethane, once widely available but now highly restricted along with other chlorinated hydrocarbon solvents so its very difficult to obtain.  Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com Richard Knoppow spake thus: [snip stuff regarding cleaning film] > The _real_ solvent is 1,1,1,Trichloroethane, once widely > available but now highly restricted along with other > chlorinated hydrocarbon solvents so its very difficult to > obtain. I still have a bottle of that (old Kodak film cleaner) which I use very, very sparingly (like for transparencies that can't be cleaned with anything else), and only use it with *extremely* good ventilation. Signature... asked to comment on Michigan governor George Romney's remark that the army had "brainwashed" him in Vietnam—-a remark which knocked Romney out of the running for the Republican nomination—-McCarthy quipped, "I think in that case a light rinse would have been sufficient." (Eugene McCarthy, onetime candidate for POTUS) >>> Is there another way to remove Edwal No Scratch from film >>> other than the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > chlorinated hydrocarbon solvents so its very difficult to > obtain. Thanks all. Too much time on my hands! I found the stuff online, not sure it's available (don't care, I have a small cache myself) but the stuff is truly expensive now. 500ml industrial grade $145.00 reagent grade $163.95 (tells me most of the price is lawyer/EPA markup expenses). 3M (TM) also makes something called Novec (TM) Engineered Fluid HFE-8200 that is marketed, "a clear, colorless, low odor fluid intended to replace 1,1,1-trichloroethane and perchloroethylene in film cleaning applications." Comes in 60lb. pails and 300lb. drums!! Fine for movie labs but a little much for us. Signaturedarkroommike ---------- > >> > >>> Is there another way to remove Edwal No Scratch from film [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Thanks all. I have used NoScratch somewhat often. The cleaner I use that takes it off is Ethol's Anti static Film Cleaner which is tetrachloroethelene (I think I have the right chemical name). This is an organic type film cleaner I bought from our local camera store about 5 years ago when they used to carry a lot of darkroom supplies. I usually use one of those Pec pads and wipe gently. Obviously the negative is already scratched, but the cleaning doesn't seem to do any new damage. The negatively dries "instantly" and stores in my usual sleeves without any problems. If you need more information, I can give you any details from the label. Not sure if the product exists any more. Unlike other posters I have read in the past, I have had decent luck with No Scratch esp for those circumstances where no matter how well I bracketed or how many images I shot, I only managed to get one "great" shot AND there was a scratch on the neg. Good luck with it. Sam >I have used NoScratch somewhat often. The cleaner I use >that takes it off [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Sam Tetrachloroethylene is related to 1,1,1 trichloroethane and is also a restricted chemical do to its persistent polution of ground water and effect on the atmophere. I also have very old bottles of Edwal film cleaner but mine contain trichlor. I don't know what they use now but suspect its not a chlorinated hydrocarbon since they would have EPA problems with any of them. Up to the 1950s Carbon tetrachloride was commonly used as a film cleaner and in dry cleaning clothes. It was a non-inflamible substitute for Benzine but turned out to be extrememly toxic as well as a polutant. I don't think its even obtainable any more but if you happen on any dispose of it at a toxic waste facility, its too toxic to have around the house. The current replacements for toxic film cleaners are, I believe, supposed to be used in machines with automatic fume recovery. Very pure (dry) Isoproply alcohol seems to be the best alternative right now even though its not completely satisfactory. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com > The current replacements for toxic film cleaners are, I > believe, supposed to be used in machines with automatic fume > recovery. Very pure (dry) Isoproply alcohol seems to be the > best alternative right now even though its not completely > satisfactory. What happened to PEC-12? Or doesn't it remove Edwal goo? SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm Someone needs do a little Google on PEC-12 for the msds and Good-off and Goo-gone, all smell the same (no I'm not sniffing ;-) but the odor from all three is what I describe as persistent and very similar, and not too different from the "banana oil" type nail polish remover--which I suspect is much more active). Signaturedarkroommike ---------- > > > The current replacements for toxic film cleaners are, I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > What happened to PEC-12? Or doesn't it remove Edwal goo? > Someone needs do a little Google on PEC-12 for the msds and Good-off and > Goo-gone I nominate Mike. My guess is you won't find out much, though: trade secret, proprietary formula, contains four known carcinogens, don't mix with hydrogen peroxide etc. etc. and not a clue to the ingredient(s). > all smell the same (no I'm not sniffing ;-) but the odor from all > three is what I describe as persistent and very similar Hmm, not to my nose. And I do a lot of work with solvents. My guess: "Goo-Gone" is citrus oil. I find it works really well at cleaning off contact adhesive from price-tags, labels, sticky-tape. Doesn't attack much, but some plastics don't get along with citrus oil. I keep a big jug handy. Leaves a very thin oily film, soap and water takes care of that. Made by 'Magic America', accept no substitutes. Goof-Off [or something like it] is nothing by xylene. Doesn't remove squat. Leaves a residue: it's not even decent xylene. Scam - don't buy it. Xylene is good for some things nothing else is good for, though I can't think of one off the top of my head. Most proprietary cleaners have some xylene in them. If you need Xylene get it from the hardware store for 1/10th the price and 10x the quality. > and not too different from the "banana oil" type nail > polish remover Ah, that's acetone or acetone in oil. Acetone, banana and wintergreen are all very similar esters IIRC. > which I suspect is much more active Acetone _is_ pretty volatile. I found the best place to get solvents is the paint department of a good hardware store/Builders' Depot|Square etc. 'Sunnyside' [what a name for a solvent co.] is a good brand, no residues, it all evaporates at the same time. The autoparts store is a good source. The problem is most of the solvents are some witches brew of benzenes, ketones, ethers ... and any other toxic industrial byproduct that needs to be dumped. Ronsinol and Zippo lighter fluids are good at removing old oil and grease - ask Ed Romney's ghost. > darkroommike laboratorynick SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm I do a little camera repair work (nothing technical-mostly cleaning and relubricating focus helicals) and haven't found anything better than Ronsonol to do the degreasing job. It takes a little time and patience but it works cleanly and doesn't cost an arm and leg. I also have both 90% Isopropyl and 190 proof Everclear for cleaning other surfaces. Some gunk responds better to one or the other. Signaturedarkroommike ---------- > > > Someone needs do a little Google on PEC-12 for the msds and Good-off and [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > darkroommike > laboratorynick Mike King spake thus: > I do a little camera repair work (nothing technical-mostly cleaning and > relubricating focus helicals) and haven't found anything better than > Ronsonol to do the degreasing job. It takes a little time and patience but > it works cleanly and doesn't cost an arm and leg. I also have both 90% > Isopropyl and 190 proof Everclear for cleaning other surfaces. Some gunk > responds better to one or the other. I do the same. Regarding lighter fluid, next time you're in a home improvement store, pick up a bottle of regular charcoal lighter fluid and compare the price to Ronsonol. Basically the same stuff but a hell of a lot cheaper. I use it (the cheap fluid) to clean all kinds of stuff, including lens helicals. My other two weapons of choice are denatured alcohol, as you use, and acetone (lacquer thinner) for really hard-to-remove gunk. Must only use the latter with good ventilation, though. Signature... asked to comment on Michigan governor George Romney's remark that the army had "brainwashed" him in Vietnam—-a remark which knocked Romney out of the running for the Republican nomination—-McCarthy quipped, "I think in that case a light rinse would have been sufficient." (Eugene McCarthy, onetime candidate for POTUS) > Mike King spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > hard-to-remove gunk. Must only use the latter with good > ventilation, though. Ronsonol is Naptha. Naptha is available from paint/hardware/home improvement stores. Ronsonol appears to be pretty pure and does not leave a residue. Be careful of denatured alcohol, the denaturants or often substances like Acetone which can attack some plastics. Pure (dry) Isopropyl is a good degreaser and does not leave a residue. You can get 99% Isopropyl at many drugstores. 91% is not dry enough, it will streak film and leave too much water behind when used for cleaning parts (like shutters). Dry Alcohol absorbs water readily until it reaches 91% so 99% must be used fairly quickly after opening the container. A good routine for shutter and other parts is to clean first with Naptha and then rinse with Isopropyl. Avoid solvents like Acetone and Xylol, they are too broad and will attack many plastics and paints. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com >Dry Alcohol absorbs water readily until it reaches 91% so >99% must be used fairly quickly after opening the container. Actually, "dry" alcohol usually has a very small amount of some other substance mixed in to keep it from absorbing water. Used to be benzene, I think, but I doubt they still use that in a product you can buy in the drugstore. This is a reason why laboratory-grade "100%" ethanol really should not be used to make holiday punch... ;-0 SignatureThor Lancelot Simon tls@rek.tjls.com "The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky > In article > <G8tdf.864$c27.557@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > really should not > be used to make holiday punch... ;-0 Ethanol yes, Isopropanol no. The stuff I am talking about is Isopropanol. Pure ethyl alcohol is hard to obtain because it must be taxed as liquor unless its for proven medical or industrial purposes. Denatured alcohol is Ethanol made undrinkable, hence untaxable, by adding toxic substances to it. High proof Vodka won't do as a cleaning solvent for film or shutters because its got too much water in it (beside making your fingers unsteady). Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com Richard Knoppow spake thus: > ... High proof Vodka won't do as a cleaning solvent for film > or shutters because its got too much water in it (beside > making your fingers unsteady). What you say? My fingers are perfectly shteady. Signature... asked to comment on Michigan governor George Romney's remark that the army had "brainwashed" him in Vietnam—-a remark which knocked Romney out of the running for the Republican nomination—-McCarthy quipped, "I think in that case a light rinse would have been sufficient." (Eugene McCarthy, onetime candidate for POTUS) Richard Knoppow spake thus: >> Mike King spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > paint/hardware/home improvement stores. Ronsonol appears to > be pretty pure and does not leave a residue. (Naphtha. Like "NAFTA" with a lithp.) Neither does the garden-variety charcoal lighter, from my experience. It works as well as the much more expensive stuff in the little bottles. > Be careful of denatured alcohol, the denaturants or often > substances like Acetone which can attack some plastics. Pure > (dry) Isopropyl is a good degreaser and does not leave a > residue. You can get 99% Isopropyl at many drugstores. 91% > is not dry enough, it will streak film and leave too much > water behind when used for cleaning parts (like shutters). Actually, since I work in a print shop, I can just borrow a little of our 100% isopropyl alcohol, which we keep as one of the solvents used on presses. Signature... asked to comment on Michigan governor George Romney's remark that the army had "brainwashed" him in Vietnam—-a remark which knocked Romney out of the running for the Republican nomination—-McCarthy quipped, "I think in that case a light rinse would have been sufficient." (Eugene McCarthy, onetime candidate for POTUS) >> The current replacements for toxic film cleaners are, >> I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What happened to PEC-12? Or doesn't it remove Edwal goo? I'm not sure what is in this stuff, the MSDS says its proprietary. For some reason I think its probably alcohol although I can't remember where I got this idea. Enough people vouch for it so that its certainly worth a try. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com >I have used NoScratch somewhat often. The cleaner I use that takes it off >is Ethol's Anti static Film Cleaner which is tetrachloroethelene (I think I >have the right chemical name). This is an organic type film cleaner I >bought from our local camera store about 5 years ago when they used to carry >a lot of darkroom supplies. Ethol, or Edwal? My can of Edwal Anti Static Film Cleaner contains, says its label, methyl chloroform and Dupont Zelek NK Anti-Stat. It seems quite effective. PEC-12 smells like methyl ethyl ketone to me. SignatureThor Lancelot Simon tls@rek.tjls.com "The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky > In article > <RtAcf.7081$Kv.5804@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > PEC-12 smells like methyl ethyl ketone to me. Methyl Chloroform is another name for 1,1,1,trichloroethane. I think you must have an old bottle. If Edwal cleaner containing trichlor is still available I would be surprized because it would require a haz mat shipping charge. However, if true it would be a first choice for film cleaning. I also have old bottles of this stuff but haven't checked to see if its still available. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com My understanding of the PEC cleaner is that it's for removing water soluble material. Not sure how it will work for NO Scratch. Sam Here's a source for PEC-12 and a description of what it's maker says it is for: http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI D=18103 "Cleans all slides, negatives and prints, both B/W and color, of hardened gelatin emulsions. Removes finger prints, oils, ball point ink, adhesive residue, fungus, laser separation oil and most permanent markers. Archival; contains no water; dries instantly and leaves no residue." BTW it does nothing, nada, zip when trying to remove water soluble marker or dyes from prints. But will take off solvent based marker (Sharpie TM) usually in one swipe. Signaturedarkroommike ---------- > My understanding of the PEC cleaner is that it's for removing water soluble > material. Not sure how it will work for NO Scratch. > Sam > Here's a source for PEC-12 and a description of what it's maker says it is > for: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > dyes from prints. But will take off solvent based marker (Sharpie TM) > usually in one swipe. I was framing a print on Kodak Metallic Endura paper (similar to the Fujiflex). I was blowing a fleck of dust off the print before putting the glass on, and I accidently blew some spit on the print. I immediately wiped it up with cotton. Left a spot. I then tried PEC-12. Spot still there. Cripes, is my spit acidic or what?! > I was framing a print on Kodak Metallic Endura paper (similar to the > Fujiflex). I was blowing a fleck of dust off the print before putting the > glass on, and I accidently blew some spit on the print. I immediately > wiped it up with cotton. Left a spot. I then tried PEC-12. Spot still > there. PEC-12 doesn't work on water based [ionic] dirt. It works on oil and solvent based dirt. I would try water or alcohol. > Cripes, is my spit acidic or what?! ~ 6+ to 7+, [_very_ slightly acid to _very_ slightly base], usually hangs around 7.4 - about the pH of blood etc. Varies with blood gas and vintage. Spit is loaded with enzymes for digesting food, generally for breaking down starches. I don't know if some of them will digest gelatin [protein], but I wouldn't be surprised. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm Oops. Thanks for the correction. Haven't used the stuff in a long time. Sam " |
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