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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2005

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How much water in a CPE

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mutley - 01 Nov 2005 10:41 GMT
I have a CPE2 but no insts. How much water is recommended in the trough?
Should the proc.tank actually run in an inch or so of water? This seems a
bit messy.

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Gregory Blank - 01 Nov 2005 12:43 GMT
> I have a CPE2 but no insts. How much water is recommended in the trough?
> Should the proc.tank actually run in an inch or so of water? This seems a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Please reply to Newsgroup
> scrambled address

Typically you run just enough water in the trough to just contact
the inside of the outer edge of the drum, that is so the drum contacts
the water but does not float......enough water to give some lubrication
as the drum rotates on the rollers.

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Jean-David Beyer - 01 Nov 2005 14:56 GMT
> I have a CPE2 but no insts. How much water is recommended in the trough?
> Should the proc.tank actually run in an inch or so of water? This seems a
> bit messy.

Initially, I put the reels in the tank and put as much water into the tank
as I would processing solutions. Then I put that in the processor and added
water to the trough until the tank just barely floated. Then I removed a
trifle of water at a time until the tank did not float anymore.

Next, I observed just how far the water came up on the plastic thingie that
holds the bottles of solutions. It comes about half way up that thing. (It
is at a slight angle, so makes a sufficiently accurate measurement.) Now I
just fill the trough until it reaches that depth.

The tank does run in an inch or so of water. IMAO, it would be better to
fill the trough until the water just _does not_ go into the filler hole, but
this is too much and invariably floats the tank. The reason you do not want
the tank to float is that then the processing solutions go to the low end of
the tank and uneven results obtain. But, other than that, the deeper, the
better because it controls the temperature inside the tank better.

This may be academic because the tanks are plastic, not stainless steel, and
perhaps they hold temperature sufficiently for the short time they are in
the tank. I would not risk it though, especially for color.

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mutley - 02 Nov 2005 09:28 GMT
"Jean-David Beyer" wrote in message

> Initially, I put the reels in the tank and put as much water into the tank
> as I would processing solutions. Then I put that in the processor and added
> water to the trough until the tank just barely floated. Then I removed a
> trifle of water at a time until the tank did not float anymore.
[snip]

Thanks for this help (also to Gregory).
One reason I had asked the question is to know if this would affect the
temp. of liquids inside the tank. From what you write probably not much. I
had measured the temp.of solution at 104F (about 40C) immediately before
pouring into the film tank (I'm doing E-6) and at 95F when I poured it out
after 7 minutes. This seems about right to me.

thanks
mutley
Jean-David Beyer - 02 Nov 2005 13:45 GMT
> "Jean-David Beyer" wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> pouring into the film tank (I'm doing E-6) and at 95F when I poured it out
> after 7 minutes. This seems about right to me.

Seems just awful to me. The idea of the tempering bath is to prevent (or
greatly reduce) the temperature drop. 9°F is large. Sure you could work
around it, but then why use a Jobo in the first place?

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Claudio Bonavolta - 02 Nov 2005 23:10 GMT
mutley a écrit :
> "Jean-David Beyer" wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> thanks
> mutley

9F (5°C) of difference sounds to much for me, E-6 specs indicate a 0.3°C
tolerance ...

You should adjust the temperature of the bath so that the temperature of
the chemicals *inside* the drum remain at a constant 100°F for E-6.
You can do tests with water and empty reels inside the drum.
Note, these tests does take time as water temperature is slow to
stabilize but you have to do it once only.

Here is an example with my CPA-2:
http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/cpa2.htm

Regards,
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http://www.bonavolta.ch

Thor Lancelot Simon - 02 Nov 2005 19:04 GMT
>The reason you do not want
>the tank to float is that then the processing solutions go to the low end of
>the tank and uneven results obtain. But, other than that, the deeper, the
>better because it controls the temperature inside the tank better.

I guess I don't understand.  If the tank floats, won't both the solution
and the reels inside be perfectly level?

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Jean-David Beyer - 02 Nov 2005 20:23 GMT
>>The reason you do not want
>>the tank to float is that then the processing solutions go to the low end of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I guess I don't understand.  If the tank floats, won't both the solution
> and the reels inside be perfectly level?

No. The retaining gizmo at one end (the one with the cog drive or the magnet
drive) will be held down but the other end will float up, so the chemistry
will run downhill to the drive end.

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Frank Pittel - 03 Nov 2005 02:42 GMT
: >>The reason you do not want
: >>the tank to float is that then the processing solutions go to the low end of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
: drive) will be held down but the other end will float up, so the chemistry
: will run downhill to the drive end.

Wouldn't the chemistry inside the tank keep it from floating?
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Jean-David Beyer - 03 Nov 2005 03:19 GMT
> : >>The reason you do not want
> : >>the tank to float is that then the processing solutions go to the low end of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Wouldn't the chemistry inside the tank keep it from floating?

Not if you put too much water in the water bath.

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Frank Pittel - 03 Nov 2005 07:22 GMT
: > : >>The reason you do not want
: > : >>the tank to float is that then the processing solutions go to the low end of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
: >
: > Wouldn't the chemistry inside the tank keep it from floating?

: Not if you put too much water in the water bath.

There is of course a reasonable limit about how much water to put in the water bath.
I fill mine so that the water is high enough to keep the tank in the water but below
gear and fill opening. When empty the tank would like to float but when I add the chemistry
it's fine.
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Jean-David Beyer - 03 Nov 2005 14:18 GMT
> : > : >>The reason you do not want
> : > : >>the tank to float is that then the processing solutions go to the low end of
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> gear and fill opening. When empty the tank would like to float but when I add the chemistry
> it's fine.

I do not put all that much chemistry in. I usually put the amount
recommended by Jobo.

I would feel more comfortable if I could fill the water jacket with water up
to just below the filler hole, but that is way too much and floats the tank,
even with reels and water in the same volume as the chemistry would be in
the tank. Actually, I would prefer the tank to be completely submerged.

I once talked to someone at Jobo (Ken Owen???) and he said it was sufficient
to have the water as deep in the water jacket as to come up to the level of
the chemistry in the tank, so that the water was in "contact" with the
chemistry. Well possibly if the tank were stationary, but in fact it is
rotating, so I imagine it is all over the tank inside just as the water
would be all over the tank outside if its surface tension were lower. Hmmm.
Should I put PhotoFlo in the water jacket? (Probably not as it would
probably gum up the heater.) Because the water on the drum outside the water
bath probably evaporates and cools it.

Now as a practical matter, the water bath works very well at holding the
temperature inside. I probably measured this (using water) way back when,
but I cannot find where I wrote down what happened. Probably because it was
not surprising. I normally run the water bath about 1/2 degree F too hot
(once the solutions are up to temperature) for some reason (that I also
forget). I assume this is to compensate for falloff during processing.

Of course, for black and white, this matters much less as processing
temperature is about the same as summer room temperature.

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mutley - 04 Nov 2005 12:22 GMT
"Jean-David Beyer"  wrote
[snipped]

> Now as a practical matter, the water bath works very well at holding the
> temperature inside. I probably measured this (using water) way back when,
> but I cannot find where I wrote down what happened. Probably because it was
> not surprising. I normally run the water bath about 1/2 degree F too hot
> (once the solutions are up to temperature) for some reason (that I also
> forget). I assume this is to compensate for falloff during processing.

This is a knowledge-extending discussion. I had assumed from my test without
the water coming over the tank that a drop of about 9F over 7 minutes of
processing time was acceptable if the starting temp was 104F -- it would
average out at 100F. I was wary of filling the trough up with too much water
in case it got into the electrics, and as I'm using a 4312 tank (1000
series) it would need a lot of water before the body of the tank would run
in the water. Maybe the 1500 and 2500 system tanks are wider and more easily
run in less fill of water.

I think another test with plain water in my tank is called for!

regards and thanks for the continuing discussion,
mutley
Frank Pittel - 02 Nov 2005 22:06 GMT
: I have a CPE2 but no insts. How much water is recommended in the trough?
: Should the proc.tank actually run in an inch or so of water? This seems a
: bit messy.

I fill the water tank until the water level comes up to the top of the bottle
holder. This ends up with the water being just under the center of the tank with
the drive mech. out of the water. The chemistry inside the tank keeps it from
floating off of the drive and the chemistry inside the tank stays at the proper
temp.

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