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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2005eye protection and Pyro
With the Rodinal shortages (everybody seems out and even the Cache R09 is out until December), I'm thinking about giving a Pyro developer a try. Probably Pyrocat HD. I've never used eye protection before for darkroom work. Obviously the Pyro stuff is more dangerous. I develop my 4x5 negatives using a processing panel in an 8x10 tray. What should I use for eye protection? An online source and something that ventilates would be preferable. Also, what about skin contact? I use latex gloves for tray developing. Should I use nitrile instead? Also I do occasionally splash causing some developer to get on my clothing and the floor. I usually just throw the clothing in the hamper when done and wipe up my area (laundry room) when finished. Anything else I should know? Is the stuff really that toxic? What if I miss some and it dries on the floor? Will it kill my kitty cats? > With the Rodinal shortages (everybody seems out and even the Cache R09 > is out until December), I'm thinking about giving a Pyro developer a try. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > finished. Anything else I should know? Is the stuff really that toxic? > What if I miss some and it dries on the floor? Will it kill my kitty cats? Pyro-Catechol used in that formula is a different animal from pyro used in ABC & PMK. Different compound all together and its a pellet versus the powder that is used for PMK. Pyro Catechol is a lot less toxic, but don't eat or drink the solution. I have not extensively used the formula -Sandy King is the expert mainly because He formulated it. Personally I my experience with Pyro Cat,lead me to stick with G Hutchings original Pmk in the plus or Rollo versions. Pyro cat seemed rather contrasty loosing shadow detail which prefer to keep. Sadly Sandy no longer posts to this group, but you probably can find him in the alt photo list serve and the View Camera website forum.  SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 > With the Rodinal shortages (everybody seems out and even the Cache R09 > is out until December), I'm thinking about giving a Pyro developer a try. > Probably Pyrocat HD. Where are you located? If you're in the US, B&H, Adorama, and Freestyle all list it as in stock, although B&H won't ship it (it's available for in-store pickup). Freestyle (and perhaps Adorama) will only ship it by ground. If you're really desperate and/or willing to play with caustic chemicals, you can mix your own. > I've never used eye protection before for darkroom work. Obviously the > Pyro stuff is more dangerous. I develop my 4x5 negatives using a > processing panel in an 8x10 tray. > > What should I use for eye protection? An online source and something that > ventilates would be preferable. I'm not familiar with Pyro developers or the details of their safety requirements; however, when using the nastier darkroom chemicals generally, chemical spill rated goggles are a good idea. It's not just ventilation you want -- holes drilled in the sides of the goggles will ventilate, but can also let chemicals in. Instead, you want something that'll ventilate but block liquids from getting in. The designs I've seen have little plugs on the sides with internal barriers to let air flow but block liquid splashes. I bought some like this at a local Lowes. Years ago, I also bought them at my high school's student supply store for chemistry classes. The only online place that I know has them offhand is http://www.summerbeemeadow.com (navigate to the "Soapmaking Supplies" page, then click the "Items for New Soapmakers" link and scroll to the bottom of the page). FWIW, this store also sells the sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide that's one of the major (and the nastiest) component of Rodinal, if you care to mix it yourself. (Sodium hydroxide is also available as Red Devil Lye from some supermarkets and hardware stores.) I'm sure other places sell suitable safety goggles online; I just don't happen to know where. I was a little surprised I didn't see them at Photographer's Formulary. SignatureRod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking Mike, if you like Rodinal, and worry about the toxicity of pyro, I'd recommend PC-TEA. PC-TEA is an ascorbate/phenidone developer made up in triethanolamine (TEA), so it is almost completely non-toxic, and has a shelf life similar to Rodinal, but gives finer grain and full film speed. PC-TEA contains no sulfite or bromide, and is VERY sharp. The formula is: TEA 75ml ascorbic acid 10g phenidone .25g TEA to 100ml. Just add the chemicals to room temp 75ml of TEA, and heat with stirring to about 150F, until all of the chemicals dissolve, then add TEA to 100ml. Dilute 1:50 with water to make a working solution. A similar developer can be made up as a two solution developer, with the first being made up exactly as above, but substitute propylene glycol for TEA. With this version, a second, alkali solution must be added to the working solution. A 30% sodium metaborate solution can be used 1:2:50 (one part A solution:two parts 30% sodium metaborate:50 parts water). Other alkali are also suitable, when adjusted to give a working solution pH of around 10.8. Either way, this is an excellent, high acutance developer that will last forever on the shelf, and is not harmful to you, your cats, or the environment. Interesting... The big obstacle for mixing my own stuff is that I don't have an accurate scale to measure and I believe these are rather expensive??? > Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > last forever on the shelf, and is not harmful to you, your cats, or the > environment. > The big obstacle for mixing my own stuff is that I don't have an accurate > scale to measure Don't need one. A set of measuring spoons from the grocery store's hardware section work just as well. Most formulas have 'teaspoon' [5ml] equivalents and there are charts of gm/tsp for various chemicals. I don't use my scales anymore except for calibrating my teaspoons. > and I believe these are rather expensive??? ebay. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com Fstop timer - http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm Hi Mike. No, PC-TEA is not stinky. If you use teaspoon measurements, you'll get better accuracy by making a larger batch, because there is more room for error in measuring 1g than in measuring .25g of phenidone. The 10g of ascorbic acid is easily measured with teaspoons, and if you get a little more or less than 10g, it won't significantly affect the characteristics of the developer. I'd recommend making at least 250 ml if you plan to use teaspon measurements, which would require about 1/4 teaspoon of phenidone (I think). By making a larger batch, you get better long term consistency, as well. 100ml of concentrate will develop about 10 rolls of film @ 1:50, assuming 500ml of working solution/roll (I can develop (2) 120 rolls in 500ml in my Paterson tank). If you make up 250ml, you're developer will be consistent over 25-50 rolls. Make up a liter, and you'll be consistent for 100-200 rolls, or 50 liters of working solution.PC-TEA can also be used at other dilutions, including 1:100, with extended development times. PC-TEA is a simple formula, and small variations in the ratio of ascorbic acid to phenidone have little impact in practice. Ok, I see that triple-beam lab balances are sort of cheap on the Bay. Is PC-TEA stinky? I'm intrigued... On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:52:32 -0700, ujazz32 wrote: > Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > last forever on the shelf, and is not harmful to you, your cats, or the > environment. > Ok, I see that triple-beam lab balances are sort of cheap on the Bay. So are digital scales. I bought one with 0.05g accuracy a few months ago for something like $30. (I don't recall the precise price I paid, though.) If I had to do it over again, I'd probably get a 0.01g scale and a much less accurate (1g or even 10g) kitchen scale. I could then measure the things that require high precision (phenidone, etc.) with the 0.01g scale and the things that require large quantities (sodium sulfite, etc.) with the kitchen scale. That said, the scale I've got works quite well, although when mixing formulas containing phenidone, I often increase the batch size to reduce the error a bit further. Note that inexpensive scales are likely to break sooner than expensive scales, and they're likely to have lower maximum capacities (which is why having a less precise kitchen scale can be handy -- they've got higher capacities so you can measure large quantities in a single batch). > Is PC-TEA stinky? I doubt it, but I've not used it so I can't say with certainty. The TEA and ascorbic acid aren't smelly by themselves. Phenidone has a distinctive odor, but it's usually masked by its solvent once mixed, and it's not an overpowering odor even when you open a jar of powdered phenidone. > I'm intrigued... FWIW, I haven't used PC-TEA, but I have used PC-Glycol, the propylene glycol variant that ujazz32 also mentioned. (I use sodium carbonate, in the form of Arm & Hammer Washing Soda, as the activator solution.) It's a good developer, but I'm not sure it's really comparable to Rodinal. PC-Glycol, and I presume PC-TEA, is more like XTOL. A closer match would probably be DS-12: http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/film-dev-recommend.html DS-12 is more complex than PC-TEA or PC-Glycol (seven ingredients, including water), it's not an ultra-concentrated stock like PC-TEA or Rodinal, and it probably won't have quite as long a shelf life; but it's an acutance developer that produces results that are more like Rodinal's results. At the very least, reading the page that describes DS-12 (and DS-10, which is a more XTOL/PC-TEA/PC-Glycol-like developer) is worthwhile. Once you start investigating the possibility of mixing your own developers, a whole new world opens up. Note that there are far more developer formulas than time to investigate them all! ;-) If you decide to go down this road, you might want to pick up a copy of Stephen G. Anchell's _The Darkroom Cookbook, 2nd Edition_ (2000). It doesn't describe PC-TEA, PC-Glycol, DS-10, or DS-12, but it does describe the principles of mixing your own developers and it's got lots of formulas for other developers, even including a Rodinal-style developer. It's also got formulas for stop baths, fixers, toners, and so on, although developers are the things that seem most interesting to mix for the largest number of people. One final note: If you mix your own developers, chances are you'll need to mail-order at least a few items. Rather than further bloat this message, I'll point you to one I wrote a few months ago: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.photo.darkroom/msg/a7e2e3eaad525cbd SignatureRod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking Triethanolamime has no odor what so ever. I bought a quart from The Chemistry Store.com for around $8.00 IFIRC. 100ml of TEA will get up to 150F in 1 min in my microwave. Glenn Booth > Ok, I see that triple-beam lab balances are sort of cheap on the Bay. > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >>last forever on the shelf, and is not harmful to you, your cats, or the >>environment. Glenn, since you have some TEA, and know how to handle it, you might want to try 510-Pyro: http://www.digitaltruth.com/techdata/article-stainingdev.php >> With the Rodinal shortages (everybody seems out and even the Cache R09 >> is out until December), I'm thinking about giving a Pyro developer a try. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ground. If you're really desperate and/or willing to play with caustic > chemicals, you can mix your own. Freestyle is out. I placed an order with them and was emailed that they couldn't fill it because they are all out of Rodinal. As you said, B&H won't ship it. I haven't called Adorama, but my guess is that they are out too. I think I'll just wait for JancC to re-stock their R09 Rodinal. It is still tempting to give Pyro a try simply because of its neat properties I read of. : >> With the Rodinal shortages (everybody seems out and even the Cache R09 : >> is out until December), I'm thinking about giving a Pyro developer a try. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : > ground. If you're really desperate and/or willing to play with caustic : > chemicals, you can mix your own. : Freestyle is out. I placed an order with them and was emailed that they : couldn't fill it because they are all out of Rodinal. : As you said, B&H won't ship it. I haven't called Adorama, but my guess is : that they are out too. : I think I'll just wait for JancC to re-stock their R09 Rodinal. It is : still tempting to give Pyro a try simply because of its neat properties I : read of. Have you looked at photographers formulary. Signature------------------- Keep working millions on welfare depend on you > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Get some pyrogallol. You can get it from Formulary in a preweighed amount so you use it all. Mix 100 grams in a liter of TEA and warm it till it dissolves. This is a single solution staining developer stock solution that keeps a looong time. Diluted 1 + 50 it should give about the same developing times as PMK. You can start with 10 grams in 100 ml of TEA to see if you like it. Catechol (AKA pyrycatechin or pyrocatechol) is soluble in propylene glycol. You can mix the ingredients of Pyrocat HD except for the bisulfite in propylene glycol instead of water. Use this in place of the A part of Pyrocat HD. Sandy King says the fog is a little too much for platinum printing, but you can add a little bromide to the worling solution if necessary. I have found it to be satisfactory for silver printing with respect to fog without bromide. You can also try hydroquinone in place of the catechol as a staining developer. It gives a little different color of stain, but it works for me. > Get some pyrogallol. You can get it from Formulary in a preweighed > amount so you use it all. Mix 100 grams in a liter of TEA and warm it > till it dissolves. This is a single solution staining developer stock > solution that keeps a looong time. Diluted 1 + 50 it should give about > the same developing times as PMK. You can start with 10 grams in 100 ml > of TEA to see if you like it. 10 grams of pyrogallol + 1L of TEA, and thats it? Only 2 ingredients? How will it perform compared to PMK? >>Get some pyrogallol. You can get it from Formulary in a preweighed >>amount so you use it all. Mix 100 grams in a liter of TEA and warm it [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > !0 grams of pyro to 0.1 L of TEA or 100 grams to 1 L. Yes, that's it. Try it and see. You can always add a little phenidone to the stock. About 1/8 tsp of the powder for each 10 grams of pyro. I call the pyro-TEA mix P-TEA and the phenidone-pyro-TEA mix PP-TEA. If you use catechol in place of pyrogallol, it becomes CatP-TEA., but catechol needs a little stronger alkali or a little less dilution. All this was in my article in Photo Techniques a couple of years ago: "The Role of Antifreeze ..." I just developed a strip of Arista II 100 last night with 1+50 dilution for 30 minutes with agitation at the beginning, at 10 minutes and at 20 minutes. Looks pretty good. Contrast a little high, but it was a high contrast scene. Grain is fine, resolution excellent, the tanning of the image is obvious. Hi Patrick, I'll try to track down these articles. Since I tray develop 4x5 negatives, I don't like long development times (prefer < 15 minutes). Any idea how a stronger dilution would work? Thanks, Mike > !0 grams of pyro to 0.1 L of TEA or 100 grams to 1 L. Yes, that's it. > Try it and see. You can always add a little phenidone to the stock. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > contrast scene. Grain is fine, resolution excellent, the tanning of the > image is obvious. >Hi Patrick, > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Stand development usually takes about 1.5 times as long as agitated. 20 minutes at 68 F with agitation should be about right for 1+50. You would probably be happier with 1+25 at maybe 10 minutes, or use a higher temperature. 75 F won't hurt. It is said that Pyro is more amenable to development by inspection because it desensitizes the film after a few minutes. I haven't tried it, but I'm sure some of the contributors to this forum have. A friend just mentioned that he ordered 2 bottles from National Camera yesterday. They also had 120 APX that he likes and he ordered that, too. http://www.natcam.com >>> With the Rodinal shortages (everybody seems out and even the Cache R09 >>> is out until December), I'm thinking about giving a Pyro developer a try. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >still tempting to give Pyro a try simply because of its neat properties I >read of. Craig Schroeder craig nospam craigschroeder com |
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