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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2005

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is 5 years old

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Joe - 25 Oct 2005 01:56 GMT
I found a  box of hp5+ sheet film that I bought in 2000 or so, and has
been laying around upstairs, partially used, since 2001. It was dated
2005, but has been sitting in a room that gets pretty warm sometimes in
summer (certainly up to 80F). Am I correct that its probably pretty
close to just fine though?
Gregory Blank - 25 Oct 2005 02:25 GMT
> I found a  box of hp5+ sheet film that I bought in 2000 or so, and has
> been laying around upstairs, partially used, since 2001. It was dated
> 2005, but has been sitting in a room that gets pretty warm sometimes in
> summer (certainly up to 80F). Am I correct that its probably pretty
> close to just fine though?

try it what's to loose?

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Joe - 25 Oct 2005 14:03 GMT
> > I found a  box of hp5+ sheet film that I bought in 2000 or so, and has
> > been laying around upstairs, partially used, since 2001. It was dated
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> try it what's to loose?

the opportunity to ask the question. ;)
Richard Knoppow - 25 Oct 2005 05:13 GMT
>I found a  box of hp5+ sheet film that I bought in 2000 or
>so, and has
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> probably pretty
> close to just fine though?

 Its probably OK provided no moisture got into it. I
recently used some HP-5 in 120 roll size that was about 12
years old and got perfectly good negatives. Of course test a
sheet before using it for anything important.
 Moisture can cause an odd mottled fog and is not
responsive to bromide.
 I've used film that was nearly 20 years old with good
results. Very old film will become somewhat fogged. If only
slightly fogged you need only to increase exposure a little.
If you want to eliminate the fog add a little Potassium
bromide to the developer. For D-76 around 0.25 to 0.5 gram
per liter of full strength developer is enough.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Joe - 25 Oct 2005 14:04 GMT
> >I found a  box of hp5+ sheet film that I bought in 2000 or
> >so, and has
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> bromide to the developer. For D-76 around 0.25 to 0.5 gram
> per liter of full strength developer is enough.

thanks-thats pretty much what I figured.
Andrew Price - 25 Oct 2005 19:01 GMT
[---]

>  Its probably OK provided no moisture got into it. I
>recently used some HP-5 in 120 roll size that was about 12
>years old and got perfectly good negatives.

Is there any advantage in freezing black & white film for storage, or
does that really only apply to colour film?
Joe - 26 Oct 2005 05:58 GMT
I know I always freeze it if it osnt going to get used for a few years,
or if the expiration date approaches. Cant hurt anyway.
Richard Knoppow - 27 Oct 2005 01:22 GMT
> [---]
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> storage, or
> does that really only apply to colour film?

  Also applies to B&W. Freezing slows down the chemical
reactions that continue in the emulsion and result in fog
and other changes. It also works for paper. Freezing is now
recommended for archival storage of processed photographic
materials for the same reason.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Peter Irwin - 27 Oct 2005 02:30 GMT
>   Also applies to B&W. Freezing slows down the chemical
> reactions that continue in the emulsion and result in fog
> and other changes. It also works for paper. Freezing is now
> recommended for archival storage of processed photographic
> materials for the same reason.

From what I understand, if you are going to freeze photographic
materials which have been removed from their original packaging,
it is a good idea to seal them in an airtight container with
some desiccant.

I also understand that film (especially fast film) will
eventually fog from background radiation. I haven't seen
any real data on this, but I have the impression that
hp5 will show significant fog after a decade or so.
I have some hp5 which expired in 1982 left over from
into photography as a kid which was stored in a reasonably
cool and dry place. I used a bit of it a few years ago
when I got back into photography and it was certainly
usable in the sense that one could take pictures with
it, but the fog level was rather high.

I bought some old Leica cartridges on Ebay a couple
years ago and a few of them were loaded with film.
The film turned out to be Agfa Superpan on nitrate
stock with BH perfs. The film must be something
like 70 years old, but the fog didn't seem any
worse than the 25 year old HP5 (it is hard to tell
because 35mm HP5 has a grey base and the old nitrate
film looked brownish and I'm not entirely sure how
fast Superpan was though I'd guess ISO 50). I think
I still have three rolls.

Peter.
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pirwin@ktb.net

Richard Knoppow - 29 Oct 2005 23:28 GMT
>>   Also applies to B&W. Freezing slows down the chemical
>> reactions that continue in the emulsion and result in fog
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Peter.
  This is facinating!  The oldest listing I have for
Superpan is from 1943. Agfa/Ansco used Superpan Supreme for
two emulsions, the 35mm emulsion is listed at Weston 26,
which is about ISO-50. The sheet and roll film versions were
about ISO-100. I am not sure how far back the trade name
goes.
  The brown tint is probably from decomposition of the
nitrate support.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Andrew Price - 30 Oct 2005 00:31 GMT
>This is facinating!  The oldest listing I have for
>Superpan is from 1943. Agfa/Ansco used Superpan Supreme for
>two emulsions, the 35mm emulsion is listed at Weston 26,
>which is about ISO-50. The sheet and roll film versions were
>about ISO-100. I am not sure how far back the trade name
>goes.

There are a couple of sites (one German, one Italian and one Spanish)
which all agree on 1931 as the year that Superpan was first
commercially available.  This one:

<http://mitglied.lycos.de/Lausch58/Leica/19312.htm>

suggests that the Superpan speed at that time (23° Schreiner) was the
equivalent of today's ISO 12, although another Italian reference:

<http://www.reflex.it/storia_00.htm>

and a French site:

<http://deja.vu.free.fr/txt/historic.htm>

both give 1933 and a speed of 100 ASA.
Peter - 31 Oct 2005 21:41 GMT
> >This is facinating!  The oldest listing I have for
> >Superpan is from 1943. Agfa/Ansco used Superpan Supreme for
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> suggests that the Superpan speed at that time (23° Schreiner) was the
> equivalent of today's ISO 12, although another Italian reference:

The author appears to have got a little confused about his
Scheiner degrees. This is not surprising because it is
a really confusing subject. He says that both Agfa Superpan
and Kodak SS were 23 degrees Scheiner.  Eastman SS Panchro
was 23 degrees American Scheiner which is more or less
the same as Weston 20 or ISO 50/18º.  This and one of
the other sites you listed does confirm that it was the
Agfa counterpart to Eastman Super Speed Panchromatic.

Scheiner degrees are based on the minimum exposure
required to give a visible deposit on the negative.
Julius Scheiner was particularly interested in
astrophotography and such a detection threshold system
probably made a lot of sense in that field, but it
is not particularly suitable for pictoral photography.
On top of this, the constants used in the American
and European versions of the formula are different,
and the European manufacturers tended to get more
optimistic as time went by - a phenomenon known
as "Scheiner inflation."

American Scheiner speeds tend to be about five degrees
higher than the corresponding DIN numbers, and
European Scheiner speeds tend to be about ten degrees
higher than the DIN speeds.  This is only a rough
approximation.  It is generally safe to assume that
a 30º Scheiner film made by a particular manufacturer
was about twice as fast as their 27º film, but there is
no guarantee that one manufacturer's 30º film was
any faster than another's 27º film.

Some of the other speed systems should be a more
reliable guide to how fast the old films were.

Assuming a fairly normal H&D curve shape:
ISO 50/18º corresponds to:
20 Weston
25 Old ASA
100 Kodak Speed (Jones)
1000 Ilford H&D

These are not based on the equivalence tables often
shown in books, but on comparing the ratings for the
same films in two or more different systems.
Kodak Speeds and Old ASA are different numbers
given for the same system. All of these numbers seem to
track each other very well in practice. If the shape
of the film curve is unusual, the relationships between
ISO, old ASA, Weston and Ilford H&D cannot be expected
to hold, but in the majority of films the relationships
hold very well.

Old DIN (1936-55) did not track particularly well
with the other systems. New DIN is the same as the second
number in the current ISO system. GE speed numbers were
usually 25% higher than old ASA ratings, but there
appear to be more exceptions to this than the rather
strong relationship between Weston and ASA speeds.

While H&D numbers were originally based on Hurter
and Driffield's work in 1891, and thus ought to
have been pretty much standardised, the ratings given
by different manufacturers in practice are not
necessarily comparable. For Ilford films and plates of the
1930s and 1940s Weston 20 equals 1000 H&D, but this
rule may not apply to other manufacturers' H&D numbers.

I'm not an expert on this, but I do have a bunch of
old books.

Peter.
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pirwin@ktb.net

Peter Irwin - 30 Oct 2005 04:09 GMT
>   This is facinating!  The oldest listing I have for
> Superpan is from 1943. Agfa/Ansco used Superpan Supreme for
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>   The brown tint is probably from decomposition of the
> nitrate support.

Agfa Superpan is listed under Panchmatic Emulsions (fast)
in my 1935 Leica Manual (2nd Printing). I think it was
Agfa's answer to Eastman SS Panchro and Dupont Superior.
These films were about the speed of PAN-F but grainier
than today's 400 speed films with the possible exception
of Fortepan.

I find it amazing that people did available light work
with what would be very slow films by modern or even
late 1930s standards. (Super-XX was about 4 times the
speed of SS-Panchro and was supposed to be comparable
in grain. Today's Tri-x is twice as fast as Super-XX
and much finer grained. There seems to have been more
improvement in B&W films during the 1930s than the
total improvement since.)

I do have a few rolls, and if you would like one for
scientific testing/research I could spare one.
I don't know for sure what the other films are, but
they have BH perfs and the same odd looking leader
and they were in the same lot so they are probably the
same.

Peter.
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pirwin@ktb.net

Andrew Price - 28 Oct 2005 21:23 GMT
>> Is there any advantage in freezing black & white film for
>> storage, or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>reactions that continue in the emulsion and result in fog
>and other changes.

Thanks - so it's into the freezer with all the AXP and Scala I can get
my hands on.
Joe - 12 Nov 2005 00:48 GMT
everything developed just fine.

I wrote:
> I found a  box of hp5+ sheet film that I bought in 2000 or so, and has
> been laying around upstairs, partially used, since 2001. It was dated
> 2005, but has been sitting in a room that gets pretty warm sometimes in
> summer (certainly up to 80F). Am I correct that its probably pretty
> close to just fine though?
John - 24 Nov 2005 05:02 GMT
> everything developed just fine.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> summer (certainly up to 80F). Am I correct that its probably pretty
>> close to just fine though?

Film. Durable, inexpensive and durable. Reminds me of when my FIL passed  
and we found a roll film deep in his recliner. I had been exposed in 1985.  
He died in '95. We developed the film shortly thereafter and the images  
were fine. Not perfect. A little low in contrast but then he didn't have  
A/C either.

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Regards,

    John S. Douglas, Photographer & Webmaster
http://www.puresilver.org - http://www.legacy-photo.com

 
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