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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / October 2005

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the next best thing to pyro

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Joe - 21 Oct 2005 21:34 GMT
what is it? if you pyros run out of pyro, what do you use in its place?
Nicholas O. Lindan - 21 Oct 2005 21:38 GMT
> what is it? if you pyros run out of pyro, what do you use in its place?

A fine soup made from boiled oak tree galls.

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Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
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Joe - 21 Oct 2005 22:18 GMT
you've got a lot of gall
ujazz32@hotmail.com - 21 Oct 2005 23:53 GMT
There are other tanning/staining agents besides pyrogallol. Catechol,
hydroquinone and coffee are a few. I don't think there is any scarcity
of pyrogallol.

Jay
Joe - 22 Oct 2005 04:40 GMT
> There are other tanning/staining agents besides pyrogallol. Catechol,
> hydroquinone and coffee are a few. I don't think there is any scarcity
> of pyrogallol.
>
> Jay

so you would use coffee or hydroquinone if you were out of pyro and
wanted the next best thing? Can I see some of your prints anywhere? ;)

I'm not out of pyro, I just dont want to get any.
Frank Pittel - 22 Oct 2005 00:40 GMT
: what is it? if you pyros run out of pyro, what do you use in its place?

I just got into using TFX-2. I use semi-stand development and aggitate 5secs
every 3min.
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Joe - 22 Oct 2005 04:41 GMT
> : what is it? if you pyros run out of pyro, what do you use in its place?
>
> I just got into using TFX-2. I use semi-stand development and aggitate 5secs
> every 3min.

and does this give you next-best-thing-to-pyro results?
John - 22 Oct 2005 05:32 GMT
>> I just got into using TFX-2. I use semi-stand development and aggitate 5secs
>> every 3min.
>
> and does this give you next-best-thing-to-pyro results?

LOL ! There is a world of difference between any pyro-based formula
and TFX-2 ! Grain for starters. I've yet to see a fine-grained pyro
formula and most have granularity coparable to Rodinal with a
comparable speed loss.

John
Frank Pittel - 22 Oct 2005 07:00 GMT
: > : what is it? if you pyros run out of pyro, what do you use in its place?
: >
: > I just got into using TFX-2. I use semi-stand development and aggitate 5secs
: > every 3min.

: and does this give you next-best-thing-to-pyro results?

In my never humble opinion it gives me better then pyro results. Then again I
never cared for pyro
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ujazz32@hotmail.com - 22 Oct 2005 21:06 GMT
Joe,

if I was out of Pyro, my next choice would be catechol. Actually, I
have no real preferrence between the two. Hydroquinone would be next on
my list of preferred staining developers, and coffee would be last.
Coffee is the most expensive, and least effective of the staining
developers, with many drawbacks in the darkroom. If stain is not
important, I would use an ascorbate developer.

John,

it's not true that all pyro developers produce grain similar to
Rodinal. 510-Pyro produces very fine grain and full film speed, or
better.

Pyro developers offer many useful characteristics, which taken in
aggregate make them unique. If one is interested in one or two specific
characteristics, there are non-pyro developers that might be excellent
alternatives. If you don't want to use pyro, but want to try a
non-toxic staining developer, coffee is your best bet, despite its poor
comparison to pyro, or the other staining agents such as catechol and
hydroquinone. If you're really interested, I can post a coffee-based
formula for a staining developer that produces results similar to PMK.
Rod Smith - 23 Oct 2005 04:14 GMT
> If you're really interested, I can post a coffee-based
> formula for a staining developer that produces results similar to PMK.

I've been curious about staining developers but I'm reluctant to mess with
pyrogallol or catechol, so I'd be interested in seeing this. Is it just
regular caffeinol, or some specific variant of it? (I've seen several
variants of caffeinol.)

(FWIW, I am aware of hydroquinone's ability to stain, and have the formula
for Q-P-TEA on hand, but I don't have any hydroquinone at the moment. I'll
buy some if and when the urge to experiment strikes, but coffee's easier
to get than hydroquinone.)

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Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

ujazz32@hotmail.com - 23 Oct 2005 05:15 GMT
Hi Rod.

I get instant coffee from the dollar store and pay about a penny/gram
for it, but it's still the most expensive staining developer I know
because it takes so much of it to do the work. Here's a formula that
will produce results similar to PMK at similar development times:

water 750ml

NaOH (sodium hydroxide) 1.66g

sodium ascorbate .35g

instant coffee 27g

phenidone .1g

water to 1 liter

You can make whatever adjustments are necessary to use what you have on
hand, ie, sub carbonate, or TSP for NaOH, ascorbic acid for sodium
ascorbate, metol for phenidone, etc., with the appropriate substitution
factor.

It is by nature a sloppy kind of developer, since I have no idea what
the active ingredient in coffee that tans/stains the emulsion actually
is, or how much of it there is in a gram of coffee, etc. Based on my
experience with other staining developers I assumed that adding
phenidone would increase activity, and ascorbate would control general
stain, and increase activity, and that increasing the pH would increase
activity and stain formation. My assumptions seem to hold up, but the
developer is still dark brown, and smells terrible. Don't try to keep
it, just use it and lose it.

Jay
Thor Lancelot Simon - 23 Oct 2005 22:18 GMT
>It is by nature a sloppy kind of developer, since I have no idea what
>the active ingredient in coffee that tans/stains the emulsion actually
>is, or how much of it there is in a gram of coffee, etc.

A "sloppy kind of developer"?  Yeah, I bet it is, because I'd be very,
very surprised to see that the 27 grams of instant coffee actually had
any effect at all except to create massive base fog.  You can "tone"
prints with cold black coffee if you run out of sepia toner, but the
results are pretty awful: the coffee stains the emulsion, stains the
support, and *does not do so proportionally* -- it's like dipping your
prints in brown dye, and I see little reason to think the results would
magically be better for film.

The formula you listed contained phenidone and ascorbate.  I bet if you
omitted the instant coffee and adjusted the pH appropriately, if you
actually did sensiometry you'd discover that the only difference with
the coffee was an overall increase in density -- in other words, an
increase in fog regardless of level of exposure.

Of course since the fog will be dark brown you may need a color
densitometer -- and a well-calibrated one -- to read this.  Similar
effects have helped people convince themselves that they were getting
magic special results from various staining developers for years, but
though I was a sucker for it myself once, today I am pretty much
unimpressed.

A compensating developer can have its uses (particularly if one is
habitually sloppy about proper exposure in the camera) but voodoo
belongs in the swamp or in the kitchen, if you ask me -- not in the
darkroom.

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Thor Lancelot Simon                                         tls@rek.tjls.com

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be
abandoned or transcended, there is no problem."        - Noam Chomsky

Joe - 23 Oct 2005 22:56 GMT
> In article <1130040942.333346.315860@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,

> Of course since the fog will be dark brown you may need a color
> densitometer -- and a well-calibrated one -- to read this.  Similar
> effects have helped people convince themselves that they were getting
> magic special results from various staining developers for years, but
> though I was a sucker for it myself once, today I am pretty much
> unimpressed.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Can you elaborate please? I see that
you did but not really in empirical terms. If you are saying that I can
get similar results to (what people claim they can only get with) pyro
without using it, please explain.

> A compensating developer can have its uses (particularly if one is
> habitually sloppy about proper exposure in the camera) but voodoo
> belongs in the swamp or in the kitchen, if you ask me -- not in the
> darkroom.
Thor Lancelot Simon - 24 Oct 2005 13:58 GMT
>> In article <1130040942.333346.315860@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>get similar results to (what people claim they can only get with) pyro
>without using it, please explain.

There are a few situations in which compensating developers are very
useful, but generally I find them to be a crutch for incorrect
exposure.  Any compensating developer will bring the highlights down
considerably when compared to a "standard" developer that gives a
straighter curve.

Many developers using pyro as the main developing agent give strong
compensating effects -- and it's not inappropriate to use them for
this purpose.  But there are considerable drawbacks, including the
difficulty of measuring the actual effect of the image stain on the
final print -- you need color curves for the paper and,
if you really want to get it right, curves for all three of exposure/silver
density, exposure/stain density, and stain density/stain color.  You'll
have to generate all of these yourself, as they're not available for
monochrome materials from the manufacturers -- and note the enormous
number of variables involved.  I want less variables in my darkroom, not
more, and I certainly don't want to go solving 6-variable equations to
figure out how to adjust my exposure or development times.

The difficulty of modeling the actual effect of image stain on
the final print in a concrete, mathematical way has led to some rather
notorious confusions, e.g. the promotion and then withdrawal of the
alkaline post-fixer soak for PMK, which is now generally thought to
increase only overall image stain.  Since the general effect of this
stain will be to decrease contrast and increase printing time with the
VC papers most printers now use, there's an obvious appeal here: most
shooters do, in my experience, tend to underexpose and overdevelop
their film a lot of the time.

But note that one could have achieved exactly the same result -- since
all that result really was was a dark yellow base fog -- through proper
exposure and development without the exotic developer.

Add to that the questionable archival status of the stain from most
staining developers -- at the very least, it shifts color over time --
and you have a kettle of fish I don't really want to eat, at least
not for lunch every day.  If I have some film I know was shot in
conditions of extreme contrast, to the point that very dilute
conventional developers won't help much, I may mix up a liter or two
of PMK or some other exotic -- but certainly I do not want all those
extra variables in my day-to-day workflow.

And certainly I see little to no reason to use oddball developers with
purported developing agents like instant coffee in them just because
they happen to stain the film emulsion.  So does India ink.  So what?
You won't catch me pouring that stuff into a tank in my darkroom, after
all.

If you want heavy base fog and low contrast for some reason, you could
always pre-flash your film.  It seems a very, very curious reason indeed
to choose one developer over another.

Signature

Thor Lancelot Simon                                         tls@rek.tjls.com

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be
abandoned or transcended, there is no problem."        - Noam Chomsky

ujazz32@hotmail.com - 25 Oct 2005 01:14 GMT
Thor,

you obviously know all you want to know about staining developers. Best
of luck to you.
PATRICK GAINER - 31 Oct 2005 15:39 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
>
>  

The staining abilities of pyrogallol are only part of its value. If you
add enough sulfite to get rid of or at leaast minimize the stain, you
still have the tanning of the gelatine which causes the well known
relief image and an increase in subjective sharpness. True, other
developers tan the image, but not to the same extent as pyrogallol.

Stain proportional to the image density is what is sought. It increases
contrast, even on VC papers, but more on graded papers and most
"alternative" printing processes. Even if you bleach the silver out of a
pyro-developed negative, you can still print it with high contrast
paper. I do not know if you can get this much proportional stain with
coffee, but I would not be rash enough to say no without a trial.
UC - 22 Oct 2005 01:16 GMT
Urinol. It's a piss-poor developer.

> what is it? if you pyros run out of pyro, what do you use in its place?
ujazz32@hotmail.com - 24 Oct 2005 04:43 GMT
Thor,

Coffee will develop film without the phenidone or ascorbate, it just
takes longer, and produces more general stain. I test my developers
using a sensitometer for exposures, and a color densitometer to read
the resulting stepwedges. I am very familiar with staining developers,
and know general stain from proportional stain. The formula I posted
works as described. You can try it, or not, I really don't care which.
You make many assumptions in your post, but in the end, you have no
experience with this developer, and I do. It's no voodoo, but there are
many staining developers I prefer to this one.
 
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