Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / October 2005
Push & N+1 processing
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Steven Woody - 09 Oct 2005 09:32 GMT i am not really know what the term 'Push' really means in darkroom. if i pushed one stop for a negative to exposuring, what i will do in the darkroom? just N+1 develop it?
sorry for such a fool question.
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Jean-David Beyer - 09 Oct 2005 10:25 GMT > i am not really know what the term 'Push' really means in darkroom. if i > pushed one stop for a negative to exposuring, what i will do in the darkroom? > just N+1 develop it? > > sorry for such a fool question. You really cannot push process to compensate for underexposure. Shadow detail that are not there because of underexposure will not show up.
What you can do is develop longer and raise the contrast so that when you print you can get a full range of tones. But you may find that it is then too contrasty and you may not like where things fall on the curve.
The nearest I ever found to push processing for films like 4147 Plus-X and 4164 Tri-X is to develop it about 7 minutes in something like D-23 or D-25, and then soak it in a solution of 2% sodium sulphite and 2% sodium metaborate for three minutes or more, followed by regular processing. You will want to calibrate this before using it on important negatives. For modern films of the TMax type, it makes the grain pretty mushy and I do not like it. But it does give about a 1-stop speed increase in the shadows, at least for those films.
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Justin Thyme - 09 Oct 2005 22:28 GMT >i am not really know what the term 'Push' really means in darkroom. if i > pushed one stop for a negative to exposuring, what i will do in the > darkroom? > just N+1 develop it? A "push" is extended development to help compensate somewhat for under-exposed film. Note that 100ISO film exposed and developed for 400ISO is NOT the same as 400ISO film. The pushed 100 will have more contrast, less shadow detail, and probably more grain. You would do this to 100 film for 2 reasons, either a) you goofed up and had your camera set wrong, so push processing will at least get usable images from it, or b) you are doing deliberately to get images with that look. As for what you do in the darkroom... If you look at most B&W film packages or the developer, there will be a chart that indicates development time with various developers, and it will usually list various exposure indexes too. For example on a roll of HP5, using Ilford LC29 it lists 6:30 as the time for 400, 9:30 and 14:00 as the times for 800 and 1600. The times for 800 and 1600 are the times for 1 and 2 stop pushes respectively. If you don't have a listing for your particular film/developer/speed combination then you will have to experiment. Adding 40-50% to the time for each stop of under-exposure would probably be a good place to start, although it will depend on the developer. Looking at the times for various films and seeing how they change would be a good idea. Colour film can be push processed too, but there are usually colour shifts. Times will vary depending on the developer rather than the film.
> sorry for such a fool question. Steven Woody - 10 Oct 2005 15:43 GMT >>i am not really know what the term 'Push' really means in darkroom. if i >> pushed one stop for a negative to exposuring, what i will do in the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Colour film can be push processed too, but there are usually colour shifts. > Times will vary depending on the developer rather than the film. thanks. but after your reply i still can not figure out what the essential differenct between N+1 and one stop pushing. i found there are no difference in effect. they both expond the contrast of a neg by one grade, do they?
Richard Knoppow - 09 Oct 2005 22:56 GMT >i am not really know what the term 'Push' really means in >darkroom. if i [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > sorry for such a fool question. The difference is what part of the film characteristic curve the exposure is made on. All films have a section of their curves called the "toe". This is the low exposure end. The contast of the toe is lower than the more exposed part of the curve, often called the straight line portion. When a film is underexposed most of what is desirable to print gets on the toe. If developed normally, this image will be of both low contrast and low density. By increasing development both contrast and density will be increased which will make the negative easier to print. However, any exposure on the straight line part of the curve will also be boosted in contrast and density so objects in the scene which were bright enough to get on the straight line section may become very high in contrast and show little detail unless burned in during printing. When it is desired to boost overall contrast, for instance for rendering a low contrast scene with higher contrast, development is also increased but the exposure is made mostly on the straight line part of the curve. For N+1, meaning normal contrast plus one paper grade, film is developed from about 20% to 33% more, depending on the film, and, usually, exposure is reduced about 3/4 stop to avoid an overly dense negative. Tabular grain films, like T-Max and Delta, increase contrast faster with increased development than do conventional emulsions. The "gain" in speed when pushing is dependant on the contrast of the toe area. This varies among films, so the amount of pushing to compensate for underexposure is pretty dependant on the particular film but typically anywhere from about 50% to double the recommended development is used. At some point low exposures will fall below the level where the film can record an image. Not enough photons will fall on each emulsion crystal to produce a development center. This varies with individual films also but, as a rule of thumb, the most that can be gained from any film which is rated by the ISO method is about 2 stops. But note, that there will be a distortion of the tone rendition for any degree of pushing. The ISO method currently used for measuring film speed is designed to give the least exposure that will result in adequate shadow detail. Because of this there is practically no underexposure latitude. Very often film will produce better tone rendition with a little more exposure than the ISO speed gives. For many films about 3/4 stop increase will give more satisfatory tone reproduction than the rated speed without resulting in overly dense negatives. The reason for the minimum exposure given by the ISO method is that grain and sharpness are better for thin negatives than denser ones. But, with modern films, this effect is not great and is also mostly of interst to small format users. The improved tone rendition of a somewhat denser negative may be more desirable than the small gain in sharpness and grain reduction. Note that there are several ISO standards for different kinds of film. I am writing about the standard for B&W film for still cameras. The speed method used for B&W motion picture film and for color films is different and the above may not apply to them.
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Steven Woody - 10 Oct 2005 15:40 GMT thanks. i have some questions for your replay. please see the inline comments.
> The difference is what part of the film characteristic > curve the exposure is made on. All films have a section of [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > dependant on the particular film but typically anywhere from > about 50% to double the recommended development is used. i just can not understand, why 20%-33% of more developmetn time is need for N+1 but 50% of more development is needed for one stop pushing. why these two time are not same and where come out of these magic numbers (especially 33%)?
> At some point low exposures will fall below the level > where the film can record an image. Not enough photons will [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > designed to give the least exposure that will result in > adequate shadow detail. Because of this there is practically by adquate shadow detail, did you wanna say "zone III"? and given a characteristic curve, how do i determind where is zone 0 and where is zone III.
also, i ever heard some people talk about 'speed point' of a curve, what's that?
> no underexposure latitude. Very often film will produce > better tone rendition with a little more exposure than the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > picture film and for color films is different and the above > may not apply to them.
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UC - 10 Oct 2005 16:48 GMT Steve:
Here is what you need to know:
Sped is measured at a standard degree of development. This standard uses a 'speed point' which is a point on the H&D curve at which the curve achieves a defined slope. The particular slope is chosen because a minimum CONTRAST is necessary to achieve detail. That slope-point is used for all films. You need such a point to be so defined to be able to measure film speed, because the point moves a little with changes in the degree of development. So, all films are developed the same degree for speed testing. Is that clear?
Changing the degree of development makes very little actual difference in the usable speed (maybe 1/3 stop, despite what you may have heard. As development time is increased, contrast increases, and if development is prolonged by 100%, contrast becomes very much higher than normal. Grain also rapidly increases.
Just forget about pushing and N+1. It will not increase your speed at all.
> thanks. i have some questions for your replay. please see the inline comments. > [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > > - When Harry Met Sally... (1989) Steven Woody - 15 Oct 2005 05:20 GMT > Steve: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the degree of development. So, all films are developed the same degree > for speed testing. Is that clear? i so much interested in how to determind the slope-point( or speed point) in a given curve. could you teach me?
> Changing the degree of development makes very little actual difference > in the usable speed (maybe 1/3 stop, despite what you may have heard. > As development time is increased, contrast increases, and if > development is prolonged by 100%, contrast becomes very much higher > than normal. Grain also rapidly increases.
> Just forget about pushing and N+1. It will not increase your speed at > all. i believe what you said. i just want to by discussing to know more arround the point.
UC - 15 Oct 2005 21:34 GMT > > Steve: > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > i so much interested in how to determind the slope-point( or speed point) in a > given curve. could you teach me? Juist look at the ISO standard. You have to buy it.
http://www.iso.org/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=3580&ICS1 =37&ICS2=40&ICS3=20
> > Changing the degree of development makes very little actual difference > > in the usable speed (maybe 1/3 stop, despite what you may have heard. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > i believe what you said. i just want to by discussing to know more arround the point. What is there to discuss?
Speed is measured at a certain point on the curve, when the slope reaches a specified percentage of the straight-line slope.
Steven Woody - 17 Oct 2005 19:00 GMT > Juist look at the ISO standard. You have to buy it. > > http://www.iso.org/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=3580&ICS1 =37&ICS2=40&ICS3=20 oh, please ... tell me
> Speed is measured at a certain point on the curve, when the slope > reaches a specified percentage of the straight-line slope. i just don't know what is the 'specified'
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UC - 17 Oct 2005 20:18 GMT > > Juist look at the ISO standard. You have to buy it. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > i just don't know what is the 'specified' I don't know exactly, but I believe it's 1/3. When the image begins to appear out of the base plus fog, it has low contrast. (The very deepest shadows therefore have lower contrast than mid-tones.) Below this point, nothing really useful can be recorded, no matter how much you develop the film. Developing longer increses the fog level right along with image, so no net gain in contrast occurs.
In other words, you cannot really get more speed out of the film. The individual crystals react to light of a certain intensity; below that intensity, they don't react at all. Developing longer just develops more of the crystals that have reacted.
In short, you don't develop all the grains that are exposed, which means that for most purposes in photography, you 'throw away' some of the speed of the film in order to achieve the best overall image quality, especially fine grain.
> -- > steven woody (id: narke) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > - Four Weddings and a Funeral (1994) Richard Knoppow - 11 Oct 2005 06:51 GMT > thanks. i have some questions for your replay. please see the inline comments. > [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > -- > steven woody (id: narke) They are not magic numbers and are only rules of thumb for _some films_. When you develop for N+1 you are developing the film for one paper grade more contrast than "normal" development, and a word about what that is in a minute. The aim is to increase the contrast of the straight line portion of the film characteristic, where most of the image is recorded, so that a low contrast scene will print on "normal" grade paper. The same thing can be accomplished by printing on paper that is one grade harder. When pushing the idea is to increase the contrast of the toe area of the curve without much attention to what happens to the straight line portion. This is because the "underexposed" image is all or mostly on the toe. By increasing the contrast the image is easier to bring out. Again, harder paper can be used but this tends to exagerate any blemishes, etc, on the film. When development is increased both contrast and density are increased, however, the increase in density is proportional to the exposure so more exposed areas increase faster than low density areas, that is why the contrast increases. If it is desired to maintain a given maximum density then the exposure must be reduced. This is why the "speed" is increased when developing for N+1. It isn't really necessary to decrease the exposure if somewhat dense negatives can be tollerated. For most films the difference in the speed index for N+1 or N-1 is around 3/4 stop. For most conventional emulsion films the amount of time differnce is around plus or minus 33% from the "normal" time. For pushing somewhat more contrast increase is usually desired so the film is usually developed around 50% more to get a full stop of speed change. Now, what is "normal" contrast? To some extent its arbitary but it has been chosen to so that the range of exposure in a average scene will be recorded within a range of densities on the film where the maximum density is around log 1.0. This results in film which will print in a reasonable time and where the densities are within the range where neither grain or loss of sharpness will become excessive. Both grain and bluring of edges due to scattering of light in the emulsion vary with the density becoming greater with increasing density. As far as tone rendition most films have relatively long range of densities over which the result will be good, provided the exposure is greater than the minimum which will avoid recording to much of the image on the toe. Lloyd Jones of Kodak Labs found that the minimum was where the contrast of the toe was about 1/3rd that of the straight line portion of the curve. For exposures of this amount the shadow detail is adequate but many films will give good tone rendition with as much as 10 stops more exposure than this although they will become hard to print. Paper grades are adjusted to match the "average" contrast of film which meets the criterial above. The contrast used in the ISO speed standard for B&W negative film (for still cameras) is about that which will match a "normal" negative to Grade-2 ("normal") paper when exposed using a diffused source. B&W films,which have an image composed of particles of metallic silver, are subject to scattering of light by the particles. As a result the _effective_ density depends on the type of illuminant used in viewing or printing. The coarser the grain the greater will be the scattering. When a specular source is used the light comes from only one direction. Any light scattered by a particle does not travel to the lens (or sensor in the case of a densitometer). When a diffuse source is used the light strikes the image from all angles so some light coming from an angle is scattered in a way that it _does_ travel toward the lens. As a result the image looks denser when illuminated by a specular source than when a diffused source is used. This is known as the Callier Effect or "Q" factor, after the man who discovered it. Callier effect is important in predicting the actual image contrast available in a printer or projector. Generally, diffuse density is used in photography. This is partly because diffused sources are most common and partly because they do not vary much from one to another. True specular sources are very rarely used but sources which are somewhere in between are quite common. The usual condenser enlarger is such a source. It uses a source which is at least partly collimated (all light coming from one direction) but the lamp is large and has a diffused surface, so the resulting light is somewhere between a true specular and true diffuse source. For a given contrast on the baseboard, that is a given ratio of measured density, a negative for a diffusion enlarger needs to be about one paper grade more constrasty than one for a condenser enlarger. The effect is linear so it can be compensated for by changing the paper grade was well as the negative contrast, the results are identical either way. The ISO speed method defines a range of log exposure and a range of log density values to be produced by it. So, while it does not specify a contrast directly it does so indirectly by specifying the two quantities use for defining contrast, namely the rate of change of density with exposure. If the film is developed to another contrast, for instance to match a condenser enlarger, the speed will also change. Since the only "official" speed is that measured for the contrast in the standard the speeds for other degrees of development are called Exposure Index or EI, these can be plugged into a light meter calculator but are not officially ISO speeds. The amount of change in development for a given change in contrast must be determined experimentally. Again, for conventional films it is about 33% for one paper grade change but for tabular grain films it is only about 25%. This, BTW, is one reason some people have problems with tabular grain films; they need better control of time and temperature and better uniformity of agitation. UC is right when he says that pushing film really does not increase speed. A genuine increase in speed would result in a uniform increase in all densities for a given exposure with no change in contrast. For instance, compare an ISO 100 and ISO 400 film, both are developed to exactly the same contrast but the ISO 400 film records a given exposure with greater density. When film is underexposed the desired part of the image is probably recorded mostly on the toe or low contrast part of the curve, so pushing is only a way of incresing the contrst of this area to make the image more printable. If there is any desired image further up the curve it will become excessively contrasty. At some point, if the exposure is small enough, no image will be recorded. There just will not be enough light to produce the changes in the silver halide crystal to make it developable, so pushing is very limited in what it can do. The ISO speed has virtually no safety factor. While most films have enormous overexposure tollerance (latitude) they have no more than 2 stops at most of underexposure tollerance. even one stop will result in some loss of shadow detail and 2 stops in a noticable degradation of tone rendition, regardless of increased development. I didn't really mean to write a treatise in sensitometry but seem to have done it.
Richard Knoppow dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Steven Woody - 15 Oct 2005 05:36 GMT you did write a treatise. thank you very much, so many info in the article are very useful.
i have a few questions, please see below
> Now, what is "normal" contrast? To some extent its arbitary but it > has been chosen to so that the range of exposure in a average scene [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > 10 stops more exposure than this although they will become hard to > print. what's the relation between the 1/3rd contrast point and speed point and 'zone III point ?
> The amount of change in development for a given change in contrast > must be determined experimentally. Again, for conventional films it is > about 33% for one paper grade change but for tabular grain films it is > only about 25%. This, BTW, is one reason some people have problems with > tabular grain films; they need better control of time and temperature > and better uniformity of agitation. you are make me knowing more about my T-MAX, thanks!
> UC is right when he says that pushing film really does not increase > speed. A genuine increase in speed would result in a uniform increase > in all densities for a given exposure with no change in contrast. For > instance, compare an ISO 100 and ISO 400 film, both are developed to > exactly the same contrast but the ISO 400 film records a given exposure > with greater density. idealy, if two film are only differ in speed, so an ISO 400 film will exactly match an ISO 100 film on the curve after moving it rightward for 2 stop. do i understand correctly?
> The ISO speed has virtually no safety factor. While most films have > enormous overexposure tollerance (latitude) they have no more than 2 > stops at most of underexposure tollerance. even one stop will result in > some loss of shadow detail and 2 stops in a noticable degradation of > tone rendition, regardless of increased development. where is the point of 2 stops underexposure? is that zone V - 2 or zone III - 2? i found the term 'underexposure' is arbitrary.
> I didn't really mean to write a treatise in sensitometry but seem to > have done it. > > Richard Knoppow > dickburk@ix.netcom.com
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Richard Knoppow - 17 Oct 2005 10:01 GMT I will do my best on this. First of all the zones of the zone system really refer to the density of the print rather than to the negative or even the scene. Because the contrast of the printing paper is variable the contrast of an image is, within rather wide limits, independant of the contrast of the negative. Also, the overall density can be varied over a very wide range by varying the exposure. So, Zone III on the print does not have a fixed relationship to the density of the negative. Loyd A. Jones, of Kodak Labs, conducted a very elaborate experiment as part of developing a method for measuring film speed that had a good relationship to practical photography. He and his associates generated negatives of around 300 scenes typical of general photography. The light levels were measured and photos taken with various exposures over a wide range. Prints were then made from these negatives, the paper grade and exposure being chosen to get the best print possible from each. These prints were then submitted to a large group of people who were asked to judge which were "excellent" prints. Jones then based his speed method on the negative receiving the _least_ exposure that resulted in an "excellent" print. His analysis of the negatives found that in order to get tone rendition that would be judged as excellent the negative had to be exposed so that the shadows which were to have any detail had to be on the toe of the film curve at a point where its conrast was _at least_ one third of the overall contrast. Any less and there was a lack of shadow detail. However, once this exposure had been reached more exposure did not result in a degradation of quality, at least until very high values were reached. As I mentioned before somewhat thin negatives tend to be sharper and less grainy than denser ones, so if these qualities are important the exposure should be kept to the minimum. Because modern films are both sharper and less grainy than the ones of 65 years ago giving them a bit more exposure will still result in low grain and sharp negatives which may have a better chance of having good tone rendition of the shadows. The Jones/Kodak speed method was adopted by the American Standards Association (ASA) in 1943 but with a safety factor (of one stop). The minimum gradient method, as this was called, turned out to be very difficult to measure in practice. Following WW-2 another method was devised in Germany. This was the DIN (means German Industry Standard) method of the second kind (there had been a different method adopted by the DIN many years earlier, this is not the old method). The DIN method is based on a minimum density rather than an minimum gradient (or contrast). In 1958 the ASA conducted experiments which determined that for the overwhelming majority of films used for pictorial purposes the minimum gradient point bore a relatively fixed relationship to the minimum density point. So, the DIN method was adopted with the ratio included in the calculation of the speed. The DIN method, which is the current ISO method, specifies a fixed standard range of exposure and a fixed, standard, range of density to be produced by it. Essentially, this specifies the contrast to which the film must be developed for the measurement. The minimum density is log 0.1 above fog and the density of the support. A calculation is made from this result that is published as the film speed. The ISO speed has a safety factor of 1.5 included. This is very small. If the film is developed to a different contrast than that produced by the ISO standard its speed is no longer that of the standard. Lower contrast results in lower speed, higher contrast results in higher speed, but these are called Exposure Index (Kodak terminology) to distinguish them from ISO speeds. The contrast of the ISO test is around the right value for diffusion enlarging or contact printing on Grade-2 paper. The problem with finding the right exposure is still the same as when Jones did his research: above a certain minimum the tone rendition will be good, below that minimum the shadows will lack detail. Because the contrast of the toe region of the film changes contrast gradually, some underexposure can be tollerated. However, one then has to choose how to print the image. If the film is much underexposed the shadows will not be black if the mid-tones and highlights are printed to be normal. If the shadows are printed to be black the entire range of tones will be depressed and one wil have a dark and un-natural looking print. While the Zone System gives an elaborate method of testing shadow detail and adjusting negative contrast to match scene contrast, one can insure good rendition of shadows simply by increasing exposure a little. 3/4 of a stop is enough for most film and will not result in overly dense negatives but even a stop is fine. The two stop value I gave is because beyond about this point the film simply stops recording enough of the image to be printable. Usually two stops underexposure requires substantial pushing of the film to get the toe contrast high enough to differentiate tones. Of course, its not possible to push only the toe so the overall contast of the negative becomes very high tending to blow out anything expoposed beyond the toe. Burning and dodging or selective masks are helpful but this should be resorted to only when there is no choice but to underexpose. Where on has control exposure shoud be perhaps a little greater than called for by the ISO speed. Jones made tests over a range of 10 or 12 stops above the minimum and this was nearly 70 years ago. He found that over a range of many stops the tone rendition did not significantly change. To some degree, this obviates the Zone System. Also, from what I gather from reading Ansel Adams and others, their main concern was making sure that negatives would be exposed enough and that they would not run into the shoulder of the film. Older films had a much lower shoulder (lowering of contrast with increasing exposure) than modern films, but again, Jones was able to get good tone rendition with these film over a range of many stops and modern films are much better this way. As far as matching the tone renditon of films with different ISO speeds, it can certainly be done, provided one is comparing films with similar shapes to the characteristic curve. For instance 100T-Max and 400 T-Max are both relatively short toe films with long stright line characteristics so exposures made on both should match pretty well. The problem here is the curve shape, but that can generally be found from the film data sheets (or measured). In principle they will match exactly.
I seem to have written another treatise, perhaps you are a bad influence on me:-)
-- Richard Knoppow dickburk@ix.netcom.com
pmp - 17 Oct 2005 01:50 GMT > i just can not understand, why 20%-33% of more developmetn time is need > for N+1 but 50% of more development is needed for one stop pushing. why > these two time are not same and where come out of these magic numbers > (especially 33%)? These "20%-33%" are rough estimates. It also depends on your enlarger type (condensor vs. diffuser), to some extent film technology ("classic" vs. "t-grained" (Ilford Delta, Kodak T-Max).
> by adquate shadow detail, did you wanna say "zone III"? and given a > characteristic curve, how do i determind where is zone 0 and where is zone > III. Adequate shadow detail is Zone III; that is the first zone where you have fully textured shadows. Zone II in comparison, has *some* detail in the shadows, but not a lot.
What defines "Zone III", "Zone II", etc., I've found to be purely subjective. Myself, I print very heavily, and my prints are very dark, so my Zone V is really probably a Zone IV for other people.
When you get into zone's, your talking about the Zone System, and that requires establishing your workflow from start to finish, so that you can "previsualize" your images (when looking at a scene, you can tell where your detailed shadow (Zone III) and detailed highlight (Zone VII) are. There, you can adjust for N +/- development. E.g., if you have a properly placed Zone III, but your most textured highlight is really in Zone VI, then you have to perform N+1 development to "shift" your textured highlight to Zone VII from Zone VI. By contrast (no pun intended), if you have your textured shadow in Zone III and textured highlight in Zone VII, then you have N development. Finally, if you're shadow is in Zone III and highlight in Zone VIII, then you would do N-1 development.
Cheers, Patrick
Steven Woody - 17 Oct 2005 19:22 GMT >> i just can not understand, why 20%-33% of more developmetn time is need >> for N+1 but 50% of more development is needed for one stop pushing. why [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Cheers, Patrick thanks, i think i understand the Zone. i just want to get know how to read the curve. actually, i want to know how to find the Zone III and Zone I point on the curve. and, i also want to know what people said 'speed decreased' and 'speed increased' really mean up to shape changing of the curve.
 Signature steven woody (id: narke)
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