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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / October 2005

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Push & N+1 processing

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Steven Woody - 09 Oct 2005 09:32 GMT
i am not really know what the term 'Push' really means in darkroom.  if i
pushed one stop for a negative to exposuring, what i will do in the darkroom?
just N+1 develop it?

sorry for such a fool question.

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steven woody (id: narke)

Bob: Can you keep a secret? I'm trying to organize a prison break. We
have to first get out of this bar, then the hotel, then the city, and
then the country. Are you in or you out?  
Charlotte: I'm in.

    - Lost in Translation (2003)

Jean-David Beyer - 09 Oct 2005 10:25 GMT
> i am not really know what the term 'Push' really means in darkroom.  if i
> pushed one stop for a negative to exposuring, what i will do in the darkroom?
> just N+1 develop it?
>
> sorry for such a fool question.

You really cannot push process to compensate for underexposure. Shadow
detail that are not there because of underexposure will not show up.

What you can do is develop longer and raise the contrast so that when you
print you can get a full range of tones. But you may find that it is then
too contrasty and you may not like where things fall on the curve.

The nearest I ever found to push processing for films like 4147 Plus-X and
4164 Tri-X is to develop it about 7 minutes in something like D-23 or D-25,
and then soak it in a solution of 2% sodium sulphite and 2% sodium
metaborate for three minutes or more, followed by regular processing. You
will want to calibrate this before using it on important negatives. For
modern films of the TMax type, it makes the grain pretty mushy and I do not
like it. But it does give about a 1-stop speed increase in the shadows, at
least for those films.

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Justin Thyme - 09 Oct 2005 22:28 GMT
>i am not really know what the term 'Push' really means in darkroom.  if i
> pushed one stop for a negative to exposuring, what i will do in the
> darkroom?
> just N+1 develop it?
A "push" is extended development to help compensate somewhat for
under-exposed film. Note that 100ISO film exposed and developed for 400ISO
is NOT the same as 400ISO film. The pushed 100 will have more contrast, less
shadow detail, and probably more grain. You would do this to 100 film for 2
reasons, either a) you goofed up and had your camera set wrong, so push
processing will at least get usable images from it, or b) you are doing
deliberately to get images with that look.
As for what you do in the darkroom...
If you look at most B&W film packages or the developer, there will be a
chart that indicates development time with various developers, and it will
usually list various exposure indexes too. For example on a roll of HP5,
using Ilford LC29 it lists 6:30 as the time for 400, 9:30 and 14:00 as the
times for 800 and 1600.  The times for 800 and 1600 are the times for 1 and
2 stop pushes respectively.  If you don't have a listing for your particular
film/developer/speed combination then you will have to experiment. Adding
40-50% to the time for each stop of under-exposure would probably be a good
place to start, although it will depend on the developer. Looking at the
times for various films and seeing how they change would be a good idea.
Colour film can be push processed too, but there are usually colour shifts.
Times will vary depending on the developer rather than the film.

> sorry for such a fool question.
Steven Woody - 10 Oct 2005 15:43 GMT
>>i am not really know what the term 'Push' really means in darkroom.  if i
>> pushed one stop for a negative to exposuring, what i will do in the
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Colour film can be push processed too, but there are usually colour shifts.
> Times will vary depending on the developer rather than the film.

thanks. but after your reply i still can not figure out what the essential
differenct between N+1 and one stop pushing. i found there are no difference in
effect. they both expond the contrast of a neg by one grade, do they?
Richard Knoppow - 09 Oct 2005 22:56 GMT
>i am not really know what the term 'Push' really means in
>darkroom.  if i
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> sorry for such a fool question.

  The difference is what part of the film characteristic
curve the exposure is made on. All films have a section of
their curves called the "toe". This is the low exposure end.
The contast of the toe is lower than the more exposed part
of the curve, often called the straight line portion.
When a film is underexposed most of what is desirable to
print gets on the toe. If developed normally, this image
will be of both low contrast and low density. By increasing
development both contrast and density will be increased
which will make the negative easier to print. However, any
exposure on the straight line part of the curve will also be
boosted in contrast and density so objects in the scene
which were bright enough to get on the straight line section
may become very high in contrast and show little detail
unless burned in during printing.
  When it is desired to boost overall contrast, for
instance for rendering a low contrast scene with higher
contrast, development is also increased but the exposure is
made mostly on the straight line part of the curve.
  For N+1, meaning normal contrast plus one paper grade,
film is developed from about 20% to 33% more, depending on
the film, and, usually, exposure is reduced about 3/4 stop
to avoid an overly dense negative. Tabular grain films, like
T-Max and Delta, increase contrast faster with increased
development than do conventional emulsions.
  The "gain" in speed when pushing is dependant on the
contrast of the toe area. This varies among films, so the
amount of pushing to compensate for underexposure is pretty
dependant on the particular film but typically anywhere from
about 50% to double the recommended development is used.
  At some point low exposures will fall below the level
where the film can record an image. Not enough photons will
fall on each emulsion crystal to produce a development
center. This varies with individual films also but, as a
rule of thumb, the most that can be gained from any film
which is rated by the ISO method is about 2 stops. But note,
that there will be a distortion of the tone rendition for
any degree of pushing.
  The ISO method currently used for measuring film speed is
designed to give the least exposure that will result in
adequate shadow detail. Because of this there is practically
no underexposure latitude. Very often film will produce
better tone rendition with a little more exposure than the
ISO speed gives. For many films about 3/4 stop increase will
give more satisfatory tone reproduction than the rated speed
without resulting in overly dense negatives.
  The reason for the minimum exposure given by the ISO
method is that grain and sharpness are better for thin
negatives than denser ones. But, with modern films, this
effect is not great and is also mostly of interst to small
format users. The improved tone rendition of a somewhat
denser negative may be more desirable than the small gain in
sharpness and grain reduction.
  Note that there are several ISO standards for different
kinds of film. I am writing about the standard for B&W film
for still cameras. The speed method used for B&W motion
picture film and for color films is different and the above
may not apply to them.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Steven Woody - 10 Oct 2005 15:40 GMT
thanks. i have some questions for your replay. please see the inline comments.

>    The difference is what part of the film characteristic
> curve the exposure is made on. All films have a section of
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> dependant on the particular film but typically anywhere from
> about 50% to double the recommended development is used.

i just can not understand, why 20%-33% of more developmetn time is need for N+1
but 50% of more development is needed for one stop pushing. why these two time
are not same and where come out of these magic numbers (especially 33%)?

>    At some point low exposures will fall below the level
> where the film can record an image. Not enough photons will
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> designed to give the least exposure that will result in
> adequate shadow detail. Because of this there is practically

by adquate shadow detail, did you wanna say "zone III"? and given a
characteristic curve, how do i determind where is zone 0 and where is zone III.

also, i ever heard some people talk about 'speed point' of a curve, what's
that?

> no underexposure latitude. Very often film will produce
> better tone rendition with a little more exposure than the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> picture film and for color films is different and the above
> may not apply to them.

Signature

steven woody (id: narke)

Can two friends sleep together and still love each other in the
morning?

    - When Harry Met Sally... (1989)

UC - 10 Oct 2005 16:48 GMT
Steve:

Here is what you need to know:

Sped is measured at a standard degree of development. This standard
uses a 'speed point' which is a point on the H&D curve at which the
curve achieves a defined slope. The particular slope is chosen because
a minimum CONTRAST is necessary to achieve detail. That slope-point is
used for all films. You need such a point to be so defined to be able
to measure film speed, because the point moves a little with changes in
the degree of development. So, all films are developed the same degree
for speed testing. Is that clear?

Changing the degree of development makes very little actual difference
in the usable speed (maybe 1/3 stop, despite what you may have heard.
As development time is increased, contrast increases, and if
development is prolonged by 100%, contrast becomes very much higher
than normal. Grain also rapidly increases.

Just forget about pushing and N+1. It will not increase your speed at
all.

> thanks. i have some questions for your replay. please see the inline comments.
>
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
>
>     - When Harry Met Sally... (1989)
Steven Woody - 15 Oct 2005 05:20 GMT
> Steve:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the degree of development. So, all films are developed the same degree
> for speed testing. Is that clear?

i so much interested in how to determind the slope-point( or speed point) in a
given curve. could you teach me?

> Changing the degree of development makes very little actual difference
> in the usable speed (maybe 1/3 stop, despite what you may have heard.
> As development time is increased, contrast increases, and if
> development is prolonged by 100%, contrast becomes very much higher
> than normal. Grain also rapidly increases.

> Just forget about pushing and N+1. It will not increase your speed at
> all.

i believe what you said. i just want to by discussing to know more arround the
point.
UC - 15 Oct 2005 21:34 GMT
> > Steve:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> i so much interested in how to determind the slope-point( or speed point) in a
> given curve. could you teach me?

Juist look at the ISO standard. You have to buy it.

http://www.iso.org/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=3580&ICS1
=37&ICS2=40&ICS3=20


> > Changing the degree of development makes very little actual difference
> > in the usable speed (maybe 1/3 stop, despite what you may have heard.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> i believe what you said. i just want to by discussing to know more arround the point.

What is there to discuss?

Speed is measured at a certain point on the curve, when the slope
reaches a specified percentage of the straight-line slope.
Steven Woody - 17 Oct 2005 19:00 GMT
> Juist look at the ISO standard. You have to buy it.
>
> http://www.iso.org/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=3580&ICS1
=37&ICS2=40&ICS3=20

oh, please ... tell me

> Speed is measured at a certain point on the curve, when the slope
> reaches a specified percentage of the straight-line slope.

i just don't know what is the 'specified'

Signature

steven woody (id: narke)

Charles: Let me ask you one thing. Do you think - after we've dried
off, after we've spent lots more time together - you might agree *not*
to marry me? And do you think not being married to me might maybe be
something you could consider doing for the rest of your life?  
Carrie: I do.

    - Four Weddings and a Funeral (1994)

UC - 17 Oct 2005 20:18 GMT
> > Juist look at the ISO standard. You have to buy it.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> i just don't know what is the 'specified'

I don't know exactly, but I believe it's 1/3. When the image begins to
appear out of the base plus fog, it has low contrast. (The very deepest
shadows therefore have lower contrast than mid-tones.) Below this
point, nothing really useful can be recorded, no matter how much you
develop the film. Developing longer increses the fog level right along
with image, so no net gain in contrast occurs.

In other words, you cannot really get more speed out of the film. The
individual crystals react to light of a certain intensity; below that
intensity, they don't react at all. Developing longer just develops
more of the crystals that have reacted.

In short, you don't develop all the grains that are exposed, which
means that for most purposes in photography, you 'throw away' some of
the speed of the film in order to achieve the best overall image
quality, especially fine grain.

> --
> steven woody (id: narke)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>     - Four Weddings and a Funeral (1994)
Richard Knoppow - 11 Oct 2005 06:51 GMT
> thanks. i have some questions for your replay. please see the inline comments.
>
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
> --
> steven woody (id: narke)

   They are not magic numbers and are only rules of thumb for _some
films_. When you develop for N+1 you are developing the film for one
paper grade more contrast than "normal" development, and a word about
what that is in a minute. The aim is to increase the contrast of the
straight line portion of the film characteristic, where most of the
image is recorded, so that a low contrast scene will print on "normal"
grade paper. The same thing can be accomplished by  printing on paper
that is one grade harder.
  When pushing the idea is to increase the contrast of the toe area of
the curve without much attention to what happens to the straight line
portion. This is because the "underexposed" image is all or mostly on
the toe. By increasing the contrast the image is easier to bring out.
Again, harder paper can be used but this tends to exagerate any
blemishes, etc, on the film.
  When development is increased both contrast and density are
increased, however, the increase in density is proportional to the
exposure so more exposed areas increase faster than low density areas,
that is why the contrast increases. If it is desired to maintain a
given maximum density then the exposure must be reduced. This is why
the "speed" is increased when developing for N+1. It isn't really
necessary to decrease the exposure if somewhat dense negatives can be
tollerated. For most films the difference in the speed index for N+1 or
N-1 is around 3/4 stop. For most conventional emulsion films the amount
of time differnce is around plus or minus 33% from the "normal" time.
For pushing somewhat more contrast increase is usually desired so the
film is usually developed around 50% more to get a full stop of speed
change.
  Now, what is "normal" contrast? To some extent its arbitary but it
has been chosen to so that the range of exposure in a average scene
will be recorded within a range of densities on the film where the
maximum density is around log 1.0. This results in film which will
print in a reasonable time and where the densities are within the range
where neither grain or loss of sharpness will become excessive. Both
grain and bluring of edges due to scattering of light in the emulsion
vary with the density becoming greater with increasing density. As far
as tone rendition most films have relatively long range of densities
over which the result will be good, provided the exposure is greater
than the minimum which will avoid recording to much of the image on the
toe. Lloyd Jones of Kodak Labs found that the minimum was where the
contrast of the toe was about 1/3rd that of the straight line portion
of the curve. For exposures of this amount the shadow detail is
adequate but many films will give good tone rendition with as much as
10 stops more exposure than this although they will become hard to
print.
  Paper grades are adjusted to match the "average" contrast of film
which meets the criterial above. The contrast used in the ISO speed
standard for B&W negative film (for still cameras) is about that which
will match a "normal" negative to Grade-2 ("normal") paper when exposed
using a diffused source. B&W films,which have an image composed of
particles of metallic silver, are subject to scattering of light by the
particles. As a result the _effective_ density depends on the type of
illuminant used in viewing or printing. The coarser the grain the
greater will be the scattering. When a specular source is used the
light comes from only one direction. Any light scattered by a particle
does not travel to the lens (or sensor in the case of a densitometer).
When a diffuse source is used the light strikes the image from all
angles so some light coming from an angle is scattered in a way that it
_does_ travel toward the lens. As a result the image looks denser when
illuminated by a specular source than when a  diffused source is used.
This is known as the Callier Effect or "Q" factor, after the man who
discovered it. Callier effect is important in predicting the actual
image contrast available in a printer or projector. Generally, diffuse
density is used in photography. This is partly because diffused sources
are most common and partly because they do not vary much from one to
another. True specular sources are very rarely used but sources which
are somewhere in between are quite common. The usual condenser enlarger
is such a source. It uses a source which is at least partly collimated
(all light coming from one direction) but the lamp is large and has a
diffused surface, so the resulting light is somewhere between a true
specular and true diffuse source. For a given  contrast on the
baseboard, that is a given ratio of measured density, a negative for a
diffusion enlarger needs to be about one paper grade more constrasty
than one for a condenser enlarger. The effect is linear so it can be
compensated for by changing the paper grade was well as the negative
contrast, the results are identical either way.
  The ISO speed method defines a range of log exposure and a range of
log density values to be produced by it. So, while it does not specify
a contrast directly it does so indirectly by specifying the two
quantities use for defining contrast, namely the rate of change of
density with exposure.
  If the film is developed to another contrast, for instance to match
a condenser enlarger, the speed will also change. Since the only
"official" speed is that measured for the contrast in the standard the
speeds for other degrees of development are called Exposure Index or
EI, these can be plugged into a light meter calculator but are not
officially ISO speeds.
   The amount of change in development for a given change in contrast
must be determined experimentally. Again, for conventional films it is
about 33% for one paper grade change but for tabular grain films it is
only about 25%. This, BTW, is one reason some people have problems with
tabular grain films; they need better control of time and temperature
and better uniformity of agitation.
  UC is right when he says that pushing film really does not increase
speed. A genuine increase in speed would result in a uniform increase
in all densities for a given exposure with no change in contrast. For
instance, compare an ISO 100 and ISO 400 film, both are developed to
exactly the same contrast but the ISO 400 film records a given exposure
with greater density.
  When film is underexposed the desired part of the image is probably
recorded mostly on the toe or low contrast part of the curve, so
pushing is only a way of incresing the contrst of this area to make the
image more printable. If there is any desired image further up the
curve it will become excessively contrasty.
 At some point, if the exposure is small enough, no image will be
recorded. There just will not be enough light to produce the changes in
the silver halide crystal to make it developable, so pushing is very
limited in what it can do.
  The ISO speed has virtually no safety factor. While most films have
enormous overexposure tollerance (latitude) they have no more than 2
stops at most of underexposure tollerance. even one stop will result in
some loss of shadow detail and 2 stops in a noticable degradation of
tone rendition, regardless of increased development.
  I didn't really mean to write a treatise in sensitometry but seem to
have done it.

Richard Knoppow
dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Steven Woody - 15 Oct 2005 05:36 GMT
you did write a treatise. thank you very much, so many info in the article are
very useful.

i have a few questions, please see below

>    Now, what is "normal" contrast? To some extent its arbitary but it
> has been chosen to so that the range of exposure in a average scene
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> 10 stops more exposure than this although they will become hard to
> print.

what's the relation between the 1/3rd contrast point and speed point and
'zone III point ?

>     The amount of change in development for a given change in contrast
> must be determined experimentally. Again, for conventional films it is
> about 33% for one paper grade change but for tabular grain films it is
> only about 25%. This, BTW, is one reason some people have problems with
> tabular grain films; they need better control of time and temperature
> and better uniformity of agitation.

you are make me knowing more about my T-MAX, thanks!

>    UC is right when he says that pushing film really does not increase
> speed. A genuine increase in speed would result in a uniform increase
> in all densities for a given exposure with no change in contrast. For
> instance, compare an ISO 100 and ISO 400 film, both are developed to
> exactly the same contrast but the ISO 400 film records a given exposure
> with greater density.

idealy, if two film are only differ in speed, so an ISO 400 film will exactly
match an ISO 100 film on the curve after moving it rightward for 2 stop. do i
understand correctly?

>    The ISO speed has virtually no safety factor. While most films have
> enormous overexposure tollerance (latitude) they have no more than 2
> stops at most of underexposure tollerance. even one stop will result in
> some loss of shadow detail and 2 stops in a noticable degradation of
> tone rendition, regardless of increased development.

where is the point of 2 stops underexposure? is that zone V - 2 or zone III -
2? i found the term 'underexposure' is arbitrary.

>    I didn't really mean to write a treatise in sensitometry but seem to
> have done it.
>
> Richard Knoppow
> dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Signature

steven woody (id: narke)

Kiss me. Kiss me as if it were the last time.

    - Casablanca (1942)

Richard Knoppow - 17 Oct 2005 10:01 GMT
  I will do my best on this.
  First of all the zones of the zone system really refer to the
density  of the print rather than to the negative or even the scene.
Because the contrast of the printing paper is variable the contrast of
an image is, within rather wide limits, independant of the contrast of
the negative. Also, the overall density can be varied over a very wide
range by varying the exposure. So, Zone III on the print does not have
a fixed relationship to the density of the negative.
   Loyd A. Jones, of Kodak Labs, conducted a very elaborate experiment
as part of developing a method for measuring film speed that had a good
relationship to practical photography. He and his associates generated
negatives of around 300 scenes typical of general photography. The
light levels were measured and photos taken with various exposures over
a wide range. Prints were then made from these negatives, the paper
grade and exposure being chosen to get the best print possible from
each. These prints were then submitted to a large group of people who
were asked to judge which were "excellent" prints. Jones then based his
speed method on the negative receiving the _least_ exposure that
resulted in an "excellent" print. His analysis of the negatives found
that in order to get tone rendition that would be judged as excellent
the negative had to be exposed so that the shadows which were to have
any detail had to be on the toe of the film curve at a point where its
conrast was _at least_ one third of the overall contrast. Any less and
there was a lack of shadow detail. However, once this exposure had been
reached more exposure did not result in a degradation of quality, at
least until very high values were reached. As I mentioned before
somewhat thin negatives tend to be sharper and less grainy than denser
ones, so if these qualities are important the exposure should be kept
to the minimum. Because modern films are both sharper and less grainy
than the ones of 65 years ago giving them a bit more exposure will
still result in low grain and sharp negatives which may have a better
chance of having good tone rendition of the shadows.
   The Jones/Kodak speed method was adopted by the American Standards
Association (ASA) in 1943 but with a safety factor (of one stop). The
minimum gradient method, as this was called, turned out to be very
difficult to measure in practice. Following WW-2 another method was
devised in Germany. This was the DIN (means German Industry Standard)
method of the second kind (there had been a different method adopted by
the DIN many years earlier, this is not the old method). The DIN method
is based on a minimum density rather than an minimum gradient (or
contrast). In 1958 the ASA conducted experiments which determined that
for the overwhelming majority of films used for pictorial purposes the
minimum gradient point bore a relatively fixed relationship to the
minimum density point. So, the DIN method was adopted with the ratio
included in the calculation of the speed.
  The DIN method, which is the current ISO method, specifies a fixed
standard range of exposure and a fixed, standard, range of density to
be produced by it. Essentially, this specifies the contrast to which
the film must be developed for the measurement.
  The minimum density is log 0.1 above fog and the density of the
support. A calculation is made from this result that is published as
the film speed. The ISO speed has a safety factor of 1.5 included. This
is very small.
  If the film is developed to a different contrast than that produced
by the ISO standard its speed is no longer that of the standard. Lower
contrast results in lower speed, higher contrast results in higher
speed, but these are called Exposure Index (Kodak terminology) to
distinguish them from ISO speeds.
  The contrast of the ISO test is around the right value for diffusion
enlarging or contact printing on Grade-2 paper.
   The problem with finding the right exposure is still the same as
when Jones did his research: above a certain minimum the tone rendition
will be good, below that minimum the shadows will lack detail. Because
the contrast of the toe region of the film changes contrast gradually,
some underexposure can be tollerated. However, one then has to choose
how to print the image. If the film is much underexposed the shadows
will not be black if the mid-tones and highlights are printed to be
normal. If the shadows are printed to be black the entire range of
tones will be depressed and one wil have a dark and un-natural looking
print.
  While the Zone System gives an elaborate method of testing shadow
detail and adjusting negative contrast to match scene contrast, one can
insure good rendition of shadows simply by increasing exposure a
little. 3/4 of a stop is enough for most film and will not result in
overly dense negatives but even a stop is fine.
  The two stop value I gave is because beyond about this point the
film simply stops recording enough of the image to be printable.
Usually two stops underexposure requires substantial pushing of the
film to get the toe contrast high enough to differentiate tones. Of
course, its not possible to push only the toe so the overall contast of
the negative becomes very high tending to blow out anything expoposed
beyond the toe. Burning and dodging or selective masks are helpful but
this should be resorted to only when there is no choice but to
underexpose. Where on has control exposure shoud be perhaps a little
greater than called for by the ISO speed.
  Jones made tests over a range of 10 or 12 stops above the minimum
and this was nearly 70 years ago. He found that over a range of many
stops the tone rendition did not significantly change.   To some
degree, this obviates the Zone System. Also, from what I gather from
reading Ansel Adams and others, their main concern was making sure that
negatives would be exposed enough and that they would not run into the
shoulder of the film. Older films had a much lower shoulder (lowering
of contrast with increasing exposure) than modern films, but again,
Jones was able to get good tone rendition with these film over a range
of many stops and modern films are much better this way.
  As far as matching the tone renditon of films with different ISO
speeds, it can certainly be done, provided one is comparing films with
similar shapes to the characteristic curve. For instance 100T-Max and
400 T-Max are both relatively short toe films with long stright line
characteristics so exposures made on both should match pretty well. The
problem here is the curve shape, but that can generally be found from
the film data sheets (or measured).  In principle they will match
exactly.

I seem to have written another treatise, perhaps you are a bad
influence on me:-)

--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@ix.netcom.com
pmp - 17 Oct 2005 01:50 GMT
> i just can not understand, why 20%-33% of more developmetn time is need
> for N+1 but 50% of more development is needed for one stop pushing. why
> these two time are not same and where come out of these magic numbers
> (especially 33%)?

These "20%-33%" are rough estimates.  It also depends on your enlarger
type (condensor vs. diffuser), to some extent film technology ("classic"
vs. "t-grained" (Ilford Delta, Kodak T-Max).

> by adquate shadow detail, did you wanna say "zone III"? and given a
> characteristic curve, how do i determind where is zone 0 and where is zone
> III.

Adequate shadow detail is Zone III; that is the first zone where you
have fully textured shadows.  Zone II in comparison, has *some* detail
in the shadows, but not a lot.

What defines "Zone III", "Zone II", etc., I've found to be purely
subjective.  Myself, I print very heavily, and my prints are very dark,
so my Zone V is really probably a Zone IV for other people.

When you get into zone's, your talking about the Zone System, and that
requires establishing your workflow from start to finish, so that you
can "previsualize" your images (when looking at a scene, you can tell
where your detailed shadow (Zone III) and detailed highlight (Zone VII)
are.  There, you can adjust for N +/- development.  E.g., if you have a
properly placed Zone III, but your most textured highlight is really in
Zone VI, then you have to perform N+1 development to "shift" your
textured highlight to Zone VII from Zone VI.  By contrast (no pun
intended), if you have your textured shadow in Zone III and textured
highlight in Zone VII, then you have N development.  Finally, if you're
shadow is in Zone III and highlight in Zone VIII, then you would do N-1
development.

Cheers, Patrick
Steven Woody - 17 Oct 2005 19:22 GMT
>> i just can not understand, why 20%-33% of more developmetn time is need
>> for N+1 but 50% of more development is needed for one stop pushing. why
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Cheers, Patrick

thanks, i think i understand the Zone. i just want to get know how to read the
curve. actually, i want to know how to find the Zone III and Zone I point on
the curve. and, i also want to know what people said 'speed decreased' and
'speed increased' really mean up to shape changing of the curve.

Signature

steven woody (id: narke)

Celine: Each time I wear black, or like, lose my temper, or say
anything about anything, you know, they always go, "Oh it's so
French. It's so cute." Ugh! I hate that!

    - Before Sunrise (1995)

 
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