Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / September 2005
Hints on using a Jobo drum for print developing
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Paul Mead - 27 Sep 2005 18:21 GMT Hi all, hope you can help me out.
I've managed to claw back some darkroom space for my enlarger in the corner of a room that I can black out adequately when it's dark outside. I can't deal with chemicals in there though, so I'm hoping to use a Jobo drum for the developing bit.
I'm interested in people's experiences and methods really. I thought that given the small amount of chemicals required (how small, any thoughts??) everything would have to be used one-shot and discarded. Would you recommend mixing up a large jug of each chemical and measuring off the right amount for each print? How much would you mix to start with?
Other questions - does the Jobo have to be cleaned and dried between uses? I'm only going to be using RC paper.
Any other problems that I've not thought of??
Thanks
Paul
Nicholas O. Lindan - 27 Sep 2005 18:34 GMT > I've managed to claw back some darkroom space ... I can't > deal with chemicals in there ... I'm interested in people's > experiences and methods ... RC paper If you can find room for one tray in the darkroom then check out Lloyd Erlick:
http://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/single.htm
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Paul Mead - 27 Sep 2005 18:50 GMT >> I've managed to claw back some darkroom space ... I can't >> deal with chemicals in there ... I'm interested in people's [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/single.htm Sadly the problem is not space but objections from other members of the household. No chemicals allowed in my dark bit, I have to use the kitchen which is too much hassle to black out (too many doors and windows and it's on the route to the bathroom!)
Jean-David Beyer - 27 Sep 2005 19:43 GMT >>>I've managed to claw back some darkroom space ... I can't >>>deal with chemicals in there ... I'm interested in people's [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > which is too much hassle to black out (too many doors and windows and it's > on the route to the bathroom!) But do you want photochemicals in the kitchen? Some are probably safe enough, but I would not want KRST to get into the apple cider, or color developpers to get into anything.
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Gregory Blank - 30 Sep 2005 03:28 GMT > But do you want photochemicals in the kitchen? Some are probably safe > enough, but I would not want KRST to get into the apple cider, or color > developpers to get into anything. That's where I draw the line; my other hobby is gourmet cooking so I say poison and food don't mix.
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Paul Mead - 30 Sep 2005 16:37 GMT > But do you want photochemicals in the kitchen? Some are probably safe > enough, but I would not want KRST to get into the apple cider, or color > developpers to get into anything. I know what you mean, but we don't prepare food around the sink where I mix chemicals. Photochemicals notwithstanding, I perfer to be able to splash bleach around on that side! Mind you, the comments I've been seeing about use of Jobo drums sounds like quite a lot of trouble if I want to do more than one print at a time. Maybe I need to work on getting chems into my darkened room...
Paul
Nick Zentena - 30 Sep 2005 17:56 GMT > bleach around on that side! Mind you, the comments I've been seeing about > use of Jobo drums sounds like quite a lot of trouble if I want to do more > than one print at a time. Maybe I need to work on getting chems into my > darkened room... How big? If you're doing 8x10s and can batch expose them then all the drums can handle at least 2 8x10s. The biggest drum can handle 6 I think.
Nick
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Paul Mead - 30 Sep 2005 19:05 GMT > How big? If you're doing 8x10s and can batch expose them then all the > drums can handle at least 2 8x10s. The biggest drum can handle 6 I think. At least A4, but many larger. I think my drum can handle 2 x A4 though.
Nick Zentena - 27 Sep 2005 19:08 GMT > Hi all, hope you can help me out. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Any other problems that I've not thought of?? The amounts you need depend partly on the chemical partly on the drum size. The drums are labeled with the min amount of chemicals they need. Or you could check the Jobo website. If your chemicals need higher volume for the prints then you'll need to use more.
Best thing is to get yourself a set of used tanks. They need to be dried between uses. No need to clean them just wash in the tank. With extra tanks you can just leave them to drip dry in the sink. When you need to use it then just wipe it dry with a paper towel.
I'd reuse stop and fix. No reason not to. Just make 500ml of each. You can then pour in say 200ml at a time and then pour it back into the bottle. Developer you could do the same thing but you'll have to pay closer attention to the life of your developer.
I mostly use them for RA-4. For B&W I only use them for big prints. Nick
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dan.c.quinn@att.net - 28 Sep 2005 10:43 GMT > Hi all, hope you can help me out. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > (how small, any thoughts??) everything would have to be > used one-shot and discarded. Rotary processing in light tight tubes is for those who have no dark space for processing. What would be the point otherwise. The loading and unloading alone is a time consuming inconvenience. There's the chemistry, one-shot or save, in and out, in and out, of a tube.
Tray processing can use as little volume of chemistry as is usually used with rotary. As little as 4 ounces will do for 8 x 10s with prewetting. One-tray, one-shot and test to use the chemistry very dilute. I use A. Thio. 1:49, 2 minutes with RC. Dan
Dennis O'Connor - 28 Sep 2005 13:10 GMT Paul, A JOBO is vast overkill for your situation... And, yes it has to be cleaned after use... Plus a JOBO is expensive... Money that can be better spent on lenses, film, chemicals, steak dinners, perfume and candy, etc... Do a GOOGLE on developing in a single tray... The drill is that the tray is the same size as the print (i.e. 8X10)... You pour in just enough developer to cover the print and ensure it will develop evenly... Rock gently until developed... Pour it out (into a waste bucket or down the drain)... Immediately pour in your fixer (forget the stop bath, the fixer stops development) and fix (you can go back to the enlarger while it's fixing).. Pour it out... Put the print in a holding bucket of water, for final washing later... Rinse out the single tray and do the next print... (regarding the print holding bucket: for 30 years I had a dry darkroom that had no water or drain, and that is how I worked, using buckets for waste and for holding the prints.. When I wanted a fresh shot of coffee, I also carried the print bucket out to the laundry tubs, and started the prints washing while I did another batch of prints... I have prints that are now 40 years old and show no sign of yellowing, etc. from being held in the bucket (the pictures are boring and blurred because I'm a lousy, no talent, photographer, but the prints are fantastic)
All your chemicals are diluted and used as one shot, but since the volumes are small your overall cost per print is similar to large trays and volumes for doing multiple prints...
Yes, you would mix a gallon (or whatever) of stock developer (Dektol, Amidol, etc.) and of fixer... Then you would use some of the stock solution to make a working strength batch large enough for the printing session - diluting the developer as usual, 1:1, 1:3, or whatever is normal, and use as described above.. The guys are also diluting the fixer since it is a one shot use... After the session all used and/or unused but diluted chemicals are discarded...
Done this way you can work in a very small space without having to have sinks, rows of trays, etc... All in all, for a compact darkroom, you can't beat the single tray method and guys are making 16X20 exhibition quality prints literally in a closet...
denny
Tony Clarke - 28 Sep 2005 17:58 GMT "Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
> Done this way you can work in a very small space without having to have > sinks, rows of trays, etc... All in all, for a compact darkroom, you can't > beat the single tray method and guys are making 16X20 exhibition quality > prints literally in a closet... My darkroom is a converted outside lavatory, 6' x 4', maybe a few inches bigger. I can scarcely run to a row of trays in the shelf below the enlarger worktop - can JUST do it with the edges overlapping if I use my three 12" x 16" capable trays (which are actually about 17 x 22). But the space is exclusively mine and not otherwise too bad for comfort and workability. Luckily a high ceiling allows overhead shelf storage too. And so...
...GO VERTICAL. I have a tray stacker on that lower shelf made out of basic melamine MDF panelling (ex-kitchen unit doors) which has three openfronted drawers that slide on drawer sliders - the metal ones with ball bearings, ex-office desk, as they're far smoother than the plastic runner type. Each has a low lip enough to retain the tray, and with a pull knob. If rocking of the tray required, the tray can be rocked by hand on the shelf or agitated by sliding the drawer back and forth with the knob. Dev at the top, then stop then fix, so prints and drips travel down the tower. Proper drawer sliders cantilever right out on two rigid lengths, so you can get a 10" slider to pull out about 17" without sagging, so if you're monitoring the dev under safelight you can actually have the tray to full view without squinting. The plastic runners don't extend so you're limited to rather less than the full extent.
The result is a cube no bigger than 2' with great functionality, constructed for peanuts - the drawer sliders were from a car boot or possibly even the dump, I can't now recall. Melamine or a similar surface is a good idea to wipe off the crystallising drips from the trays which can make bare wood swell and stain. Such a box could be constructed with front lid and possibly casters if you need to remove it from a work space and stow it elsewhere. And of course all your chemicals can be rescued into squashable bottles between sessions instead of a total-loss routine. Can even store them in the tray tower with the trays! (There's about 6" headroom in each compartment).
Another budget tip: if doing 10 x 8, a cheap substitute for dev trays is cat litter trays from a pound shop or pet shop. Great inert cleanable plastic, and they come in fetching colours so you worry less about mixing them up (though label them nonetheless).
I do have the guts of a Jobo somewhere in a shed, rescued by a friend from a skip but not yet had a reason to get it going.
One could make something along the lines of a Nova vertical slot processor from some suitable non-tainting plastic like perspex assuming the edge joints stay drip tight (!) , which would be marvellously economical on footprint space but not only can you not readily see the print developing, but there's no great economy of chemistry. I calculate a 12 x 16 capable tank even 1cm wide would need at least 1.2 litres of solution to get full immersion, as you can't slosh. A 16 x 20 would need 2 litres plus. I mix up chemistry a litre at a time for my printing (mostly 10 x 8 in the cat trays), slosh gently and have no problems. The Jessop storage bottles are 1 litre each.
Tony Clarke, minimalist printer but not THAT minimal
Lloyd Erlick - 28 Sep 2005 20:49 GMT >...guys are making 16X20 exhibition quality >prints literally in a closet... ...
September 28, 2005, from Lloyd Erlick,
I think some of the guys who have done literally that include Ansel Adams, Edward Weston, David Vestal ... I'm sure single-tray work came from young photogs who never had any money, early in the history of photography (and long before Adams and Weston, too).
One of Vestal's books has a picture of one of his early 'darkrooms' -- it amounted to a very thirties-looking bathroom sink.
regards, --le
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Mike - 28 Sep 2005 13:57 GMT Apparently most contributors are missing the point that you have two spaces: a DARK space to load and unload drums and make exposures and a separate WET space for processing. Drums will work fine in such a situation but I'd look into two (or more) used Omega or Besseler drums (cheaper) and rise them with warm water after use and let drain dry, then a quick swipe with paper towelling before reusing. Using three in rotation makes for less effort. I use single tray processing only for larger prints, for 8x10's I consider it a pain, not trying to rekindle debate here, just my opinion. And with darkroom prices what they are today you might even find an 8x10 RC-20 or RCP-200 processor or Nova vertical slot processor for cheap and take the processed prints out to wash and dry. Neither takes up much space at all.
Mike
> Hi all, hope you can help me out. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Paul dan.c.quinn@att.net - 28 Sep 2005 23:46 GMT > Apparently most contributors are missing the point > that you have two spaces: a DARK space to load and > unload drums and make exposures and a separate WET > space for processing. I did mention drum use when no dark space exists for processing; that the main reason for using a drum. A little aside: Long, Wide, Deep, Sinks. I don't know where they came from. I spent years in three Army labs which had ample processing couter space. The sinks were sized for water supply and washing up. I don't understand why anybody would wish to be bent over reaching down to process. There are those with a "of course if you care to do it up Right and Proper" attitude which won't go near a darkroom if it is without a Long, Wide, Deep, Sink.
> I use single tray processing only for larger prints, > for 8x10's I consider it a pain, not trying to rekindle > debate here, just my opinion. I consider it a gas; one tray, one shot, no stop, and archival results with one very dilute fix. The only down side is the time for development. The more then usual dilution will call for more time. I allow for 3 or 5 minutes ordinarily. The remarkable way highly dilute fixer works came as a real surprise. For 8 x 10 FB I suggest A. Thio. at 1:41 and a solution volume of 250ml; 3 minutes constant agitation. S. Thio. will also work; 6 grams anhydrous. Agitate by pulling and folding the paper upon itself rear to front, right to left. Do not reduce the fixer's volume. As it is you'll have archival results with one fix. Dan
Jean-David Beyer - 30 Sep 2005 12:22 GMT dan.c.quinn@att.net wrote (in part):
>>Apparently most contributors are missing the point >>that you have two spaces: a DARK space to load and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > understand why anybody would wish to be bent over > reaching down to process. I do not know about "bent over." My sinks are about 5" deep, and about 36" from the floor to the bottom. So I am not "bent over reaching down to process."
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Claudio Bonavolta - 28 Sep 2005 22:48 GMT Paul Mead a écrit :
> Hi all, hope you can help me out. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Paul I use this technique for large prints when I don't want to mix to much products. It works fine. As you can do the washing in the tube itself, it comes out clean, I just rinse it one more time before drying. For B/W paper, I don't think you need it absolutely dry but for color papers, I'm afraid the water drops falling on the emulsion may slightly modify the development and could be visible on the final print. For B/W papers, the quantity indicated on the drum of normally diluted chemicals is enough. Don't forget a small quantity of chemicals will exhaust quicker.
For B/W fiber papers, the relief inside the drum (made to avoid the prints stick on the plastic surface) leave some marks on the paper. Try to find a tube with a smooth interior and remove the prints with the tube vertical full of water, they stick less.
Best regards,
 Signature Claudio Bonavolta http://www.bonavolta.ch
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