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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / August 2005

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About Cold Developer

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Rex the Strange - 19 Aug 2005 19:57 GMT
Thanks to those who helped me with this. I now understand why
temperature is important. I didn't know that before (or didn't really
think about it).

To those who have treated me like an idiot, shame on you. I once asked
a question on this board starting with "this is probably a stupid
question" and it was responded with "the only stupid question is the
one that remains unasked."

I suggest those of you who feel that helping a beginner is beneath you
try to remember when you first started out and be a little more
empathetic or else have a big cup of stfu.
PATRICK GAINER - 20 Aug 2005 15:02 GMT
>To those who have treated me like an idiot, shame on you. I once asked
>a question on this board starting with "this is probably a stupid
>question" and it was responded with "the only stupid question is the
>one that remains unasked."
>
>  

That must have been Richard Knoppow. He is a gentleman.
James Philopena - 20 Aug 2005 21:01 GMT
>>To those who have treated me like an idiot, shame on you. I once asked
>>a question on this board starting with "this is probably a stupid
>>question" and it was responded with "the only stupid question is the
>>one that remains unasked."
>>
> That must have been Richard Knoppow. He is a gentleman.

It surely wouldn't have been the radioactive one...  Nothing gentle or manly
about him...
UC - 20 Aug 2005 21:37 GMT
Rex:

It is evident that you did not even attempt to read the instructions or
follow the recommendations of the manufacturer.

I helped more than you deserved.

> Thanks to those who helped me with this. I now understand why
> temperature is important. I didn't know that before (or didn't really
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> try to remember when you first started out and be a little more
> empathetic or else have a big cup of stfu.
nailer - 21 Aug 2005 12:27 GMT
*Rex:
-----------------------------------------
*> I suggest those of you who feel that helping a beginner is beneath you
*> try to remember when you first started out and be a little more
*> empathetic or else have a big cup of stfu.

since my early days I learnt to either buy a book, borrow or copy.
Then I read it.
It is very simple, we call it self education. People will help you if
they see you trying hard. If they believe you are a free-loader, then
some may become a bit angry.
There are only few books (photography) worth buying, nothing stops you
from visiting your local library. Such investment will be profitable
for years, and you can even help some freshmen in their photographic
endevouers.
Richard Knoppow - 22 Aug 2005 00:49 GMT
> On 20 Aug 2005 13:37:00 -0700, "UC"
> <uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> photographic
> endevouers.

  Which of the current crop of books do you recommend?  Or
for that matter, older books which might still be available.
  I must add that in the USA public libraries have been
shorted funds for a long time so many branches have closed
and some library services, such as interlibrary loan, have
been cut back. I am lucky that in Los Angeles I have access
to an excellent city public library and three large
university libraries, many people do not have access to any
library.
  You, BTW, are the source of some very good information.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Mike King - 23 Aug 2005 02:55 GMT
Basic:  I like Hedgecoe's
Intermediate:  (help me out here guys)
Advanced:  David Vestal,

Just add to the list
Signature

darkroommike

----------

>
> > On 20 Aug 2005 13:37:00 -0700, "UC"
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> library.
>    You, BTW, are the source of some very good information.
Rex the Strange - 22 Aug 2005 17:26 GMT
> Rex:
>
> It is evident that you did not even attempt to read the instructions or
> follow the recommendations of the manufacturer.
>
> I helped more than you deserved.

HELPED!!!!!

If I recall correctly the first thing you did was insult me. How do you
help car accident victems? Shoot them in the kneecaps?
John - 22 Aug 2005 17:37 GMT
>If I recall correctly the first thing you did was insult me. How do you
>help car accident victems? Shoot them in the kneecaps?

Good idea ! Perhaps then they'll stop hurting those that know how to
drive !

John - www.puresilver,org
UC - 22 Aug 2005 18:12 GMT
No, the first thing I did was bring up the subject of the thermometer,
and expressed surprise that you did not measure the temperature of the
developer, which was probably 50F or less. THEN I insulted you for
doing such a foolish thing, an insult which was well-deserved, as you
admitted.

> > Rex:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> If I recall correctly the first thing you did was insult me. How do you
> help car accident victems? Shoot them in the kneecaps?
Rex the Strange - 22 Aug 2005 18:29 GMT
Still, it was far from helpful, so my comments in the other post to you
still stand. I think you're a class A jerk.

> No, the first thing I did was bring up the subject of the thermometer,
> and expressed surprise that you did not measure the temperature of the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> > If I recall correctly the first thing you did was insult me. How do you
> > help car accident victems? Shoot them in the kneecaps?
Rex the Strange - 22 Aug 2005 18:40 GMT
It's also interesting that you seem to have immediately jumped to the
conclusion that this post was directed at you. It seems you know you're
a jerk, too.
Francis A. Miniter - 22 Aug 2005 19:00 GMT
Michael,

You have distorted the whole sequence, so I am going to set it straight.

Rex's original post [8-19-05 @ 1:13 pm] asked generally about the
effects of using cold developer.   No developer was specified.  No
temperature was specified.  Your reply post [1:21 pm] stated that (1)
all chemical reactions are affected by temperature and (2) cold
development yields thinner negatives.  You did not ever mention a
thermometer.  Your statement (1) is true; statement (2) is false.  In
cold development you extend time to obtain normal development.   At 1:25
pm, Rex asked you what you meant by thinner.  Still no mention of a
thermometer.  At 1:41 pm, you replied :

"Unexposed but normally-developed negative film, or exposed negative
film that does NOT receive adequate normal development, will have
lowerthan normal density. This means 'clear' or 'weak'."

That is false and I have now replied to it.

Rex then began the current thread [8:19-05 2:57 pm] thanking people for
their assistance.   You replied [8-20-05 @ 4:37 pm] saying that it is
evident that Rex never read the instructions or followed the
manufacturer's recommendations.  But no process was ever mentioned , not
to mention a product.  So this was again fiction on your part.  Rex
responded  today at 12:26 pm asking how you render assistance to
accident victims.  That led to your response, to which I am now replying.

In sum , given that usenet groups keep a perpetual record of posts, you
would be well advised not to misrepresent what you and others have said.

Francis A. Miniter

>No, the first thing I did was bring up the subject of the thermometer,
>  

False.  See above.

>and expressed surprise that you did not measure the temperature of the
>developer,

You never said that in any of your responses.  This is fiction.

>which was probably 50F or less.

The question was general.  No particular process or trial was ever
specified.

>THEN I insulted you

Yes you did.  And that is not nice, just or fair.

>for
>doing such a foolish thing,

Which he did not do at all.   That is a fiction in your brain.

> an insult which was well-deserved, as you
>admitted.
>  

He never made such an admission.
Rex the Strange - 22 Aug 2005 19:42 GMT
Ok. Even I have to step in here. Francis - UC was referring to a
different thread (entitled: Film Developer - Aug 19th, 9:21 am). There
he said:

>Are you actually telling me that you did not measure the temperature of
>the developer, and that you took it right from the refigerator?

>I'm going to have to pause to research some really good terms of abuse.
>The usual insults won't do...

To which I thought he was joking, but then when he followed up with a
page of actual insults (in a foreign language, what's more) which is
what made me think he's a tard. I agree he's a dick, but let's call him
a dick for the right reasons. Ok?

> Michael,
>
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
> He never made such an admission.
UC - 22 Aug 2005 21:50 GMT
> Ok. Even I have to step in here. Francis - UC was referring to a
> different thread (entitled: Film Developer - Aug 19th, 9:21 am). There
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> what made me think he's a tard. I agree he's a dick, but let's call him
> a dick for the right reasons. Ok?

I was only half-joking, Rex.

I really thought you were kidding about this at first....but then when
I realized that you HONESTLY did not measure the temperature and used
COLD developer I was shocked, shocked I tell you...

> > Michael,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> >
> > He never made such an admission.
Rex the Strange - 23 Aug 2005 17:45 GMT
UC,

> I was only half-joking, Rex.
>
> I really thought you were kidding about this at first....but then when
> I realized that you HONESTLY did not measure the temperature and used
> COLD developer I was shocked, shocked I tell you...

No, I seriously did do that (and - I should let you know that I was
more or less expecting a failed result). Similarly, I genuinely was not
shocked that the first roll failed because the ISO setting on the
camera was incorrect. Really, when I processed the second roll I guess
I just wanted people on this board to verify what I already knew.

I wasn't offended at your first comments - I was pretty sure you were
somewhat joking, but when you actually came back with actual insults
well...that's when I concluded that you're a jerk. I appreciate that
you've explained yourself and I hope that I have now sufficiently
explained myself.

Anyway, the point is - no more cold developer.
UC - 23 Aug 2005 22:14 GMT
> UC,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Anyway, the point is - no more cold developer.

But the page was of FOREIGN-LANGUAGE insults, Rex. I was trying to
impress you with how foolish you were by taking the step of using
extraordinary insults. It was what we call hyperbole. (High-per-bow-lee)
Frank Pittel - 24 Aug 2005 17:54 GMT
: Ok. Even I have to step in here. Francis - UC was referring to a
: different thread (entitled: Film Developer - Aug 19th, 9:21 am). There
: he said:

: >Are you actually telling me that you did not measure the temperature of
: >the developer, and that you took it right from the refigerator?

: >I'm going to have to pause to research some really good terms of abuse.
: >The usual insults won't do...

: To which I thought he was joking, but then when he followed up with a
: page of actual insults (in a foreign language, what's more) which is
: what made me think he's a tard. I agree he's a dick, but let's call him
: a dick for the right reasons. Ok?

He's a troll and should be ignored.
Signature


-------------------
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you

Rex the Strange - 24 Aug 2005 22:05 GMT
> He's a troll and should be ignored.

Who? UC?
Frank Pittel - 24 Aug 2005 22:42 GMT
: > He's a troll and should be ignored.

Should have been a little more clear. The troll in question is uc.

Signature

-------------------
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you

Rex the Strange - 25 Aug 2005 00:02 GMT
> : > He's a troll and should be ignored.
>
> Should have been a little more clear. The troll in question is uc.

I'm beginning to work that out. It's ok though, because I don't mind
telling him to take a flying f at the moon - it's kinda fun.
Frank Pittel - 25 Aug 2005 02:54 GMT
: I'm beginning to work that out. It's ok though, because I don't mind
: telling him to take a flying f at the moon - it's kinda fun.

The problem is that the troll is in a desperate search for attention.
Any response to it's posts give the troll the attention that it
craves. The best way to deal with the troll is to ignore it.

Signature

-------------------
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you

Little Green Eyed Dragon - 25 Aug 2005 04:07 GMT
> The best way to deal with the troll is to ignore it.

Or killfile him and everyone else so feeling the need to reply to
an obvious nutcase.
Signature

Would thou choose to meet a rat eating dragon, or
a dragon, eating rat? The answer of: I am somewhere
in the middle.

Frank Pittel - 25 Aug 2005 16:34 GMT
: > The best way to deal with the troll is to ignore it.

: Or killfile him and everyone else so feeling the need to reply to
: an obvious nutcase.

I tried that and it didn't work. To many people that provided good
information got sucked into his flame wars. Ignoring him has proven to
be far more effective.
Signature


-------------------
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you

UC - 25 Aug 2005 17:18 GMT
Frank:

I am not a troll. I provide information plus insults. A troll does not
do that.

> : > The best way to deal with the troll is to ignore it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> -------------------
> Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
Rex the Strange - 25 Aug 2005 19:24 GMT
> Frank:
>
> I am not a troll. I provide information plus insults. A troll does not
> do that.

UC! What are you doing here!? I thought I told you to go piss up a rope.
UC - 25 Aug 2005 19:26 GMT
> > Frank:
> >
> > I am not a troll. I provide information plus insults. A troll does not
> > do that.
>
> UC! What are you doing here!? I thought I told you to go piss up a rope.

At what temperature?
Keith Tapscott - 25 Aug 2005 19:46 GMT
"UC" <uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com>
>> UC! What are you doing here!? I thought I told you to go piss up a rope.

> At what temperature?

 If somebody added some Hydroquinone to their urine, would that make it a
Pee-Q developer?
UC - 25 Aug 2005 20:05 GMT
> "UC" <uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com>
> >> UC! What are you doing here!? I thought I told you to go piss up a rope.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>   If somebody added some Hydroquinone to their urine, would that make it a
> Pee-Q developer?

How about phen-my-bone-developer?
UC - 25 Aug 2005 14:50 GMT
Gosh, Frank, you seem to expend so much energy on me. Why?

> : I'm beginning to work that out. It's ok though, because I don't mind
> : telling him to take a flying f at the moon - it's kinda fun.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> -------------------
> Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
Richard Knoppow - 21 Aug 2005 09:01 GMT
    Rex, what books do you have available on elementary photograpy?  I
wonder partly because your misunderstanding about temperature is not
rare. Another subject that seems to be a frequent source of puzzlement
is the importance of contrast and how to control it. It isn't necessary
to understand this in a highly technical way for it to be useful.
   It seems to me that B&W photography requires a better understanding
of the way the photographic process works than color, despite the more
complex nature of color. I think the reason for this is the nearly
complete standardization of color processing.  There are really only
two color processes for film and two for paper, one each for
negative/positive, and a second set for reversal work. The only other
variation of C-41 and E-6 is that some  sets of processes have some of
the steps combined. All films are developed the same way in the same
solutions with almost no variation. The same for printing (with the
addition of Ciba/Ilfochrome processing which is different from other
reversal processes). In color printing one is concerned mainly with
adjusting the color filters to get a satisfactory result but the actual
processing is nearly automatic even when done with simple equipment.
OTHO, B&W can be done with a large variety of developers and many
variations in processing are possible. This leads to a lot of pitfalls
because some of the factors may not be obvious.  I have been doing
darkroom work for more than fifty years (giving away my age here) and
still make mistakes.
  One key to good B&W work in my never humble opinion, is to apply
some of the standardization of color work. To obtain predictable
negatives they must be developed the same each time. That means paying
attention to time, temperature, and agitation. Printing is easier
because you can always make a new print, but still, if one works from
good negatives good prints are a lot easier to make. What is a good
negative? Easy, its one that prints easily.
  As far as the way biginners are treated here: IMO, one of the main
functions of news groups is to help beginners. Of course, it is also a
forum for those who are knowledgible to trade experiences with each
other but education is an important function. Remember, this is part of
the   -recreation-  hierarchy of news groups, not a professional, sci
or similar group.
 Stick around...

Richard Knoppow
dickburk@ix.netcom.com_
dr bob - 21 Aug 2005 12:49 GMT
>      Rex, what books do you have available on elementary photograpy?
>cut<
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Richard Knoppow
> dickburk@ix.netcom.com_

Way to go Richard!

Truly dr bob.
Rex the Strange - 22 Aug 2005 17:33 GMT
Richard,

> Rex, what books do you have available on elementary photograpy?

I have one book on elementary darkroom techniques. It does not go into
details about the whys and wherefores of developer temperatures - it
merely mentions that correct temperature should be maintained. Thank
you for clarifying on this point.

> Printing is easier
> because you can always make a new print, but still, if one works from
> good negatives good prints are a lot easier to make.

This I have learned from experience.

>    As far as the way biginners are treated here: IMO, one of the main
> functions of news groups is to help beginners. Of course, it is also a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> or similar group.
>   Stick around...

I will. Thank you very much for you help. It's greatly appreciated.

--------------------------

UC

You're an a.shole. Stay off my posts unless you wish to receive the
same contempt that you have shown me.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 22 Aug 2005 18:37 GMT
> I have one book on elementary darkroom techniques. It does not go into
> details about the whys and wherefores of developer temperatures - it
> merely mentions that correct temperature should be maintained.

In this book cross out all "should"'s and replace them with "must"'s;
turn all "merely mentions" into thundering dictates from the sky.

Don't think, thinking interferes with learning:  You just argue with the
book because you thought up something different.

Keep an open mind, so be as a five year old --

Teacher: "One 'equals' one. can everybody say 'equals'?
         That's good, one more time now ..."

5-year old: "Wow!  Remember that to tell Mom [extra big drivel ...]"

The thinking adult:

 " Hah! She is wrong: The tautalogical existence of
   'equal' is really in doubt as:

    o It is the end result of all proven hypothesis;
    o Can not be used as the starting point to create
      a hypothesis;
    o However, the hypothesis can be proven by
      reducing it to one equals ....   What was it that
      'one' equals, it's coming to me, didn't somebody just mention it?.*

                               *    *    *
* Yes I know the last is logical garbage [_You_ think up an off the cuff
 refutation of "equals"] so

_PLEASE_:

 Don't send outraged replies of the form:

  o "As any bleeding idiot can see -- and you are
     dumber than a bleeding idiot -- blah blah blah ...

  o "Obviously _not_ an engineer ..."

  o "This is OT..."

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

Rex the Strange - 22 Aug 2005 18:47 GMT
> > I have one book on elementary darkroom techniques. It does not go into
> > details about the whys and wherefores of developer temperatures - it
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
> Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

That's an interesting post, Nicholas, but I have a very big problem
with just accepting things without knowing why and what will happen if
I don't do what has been dictated.

All in all this has been an excellent learning experience - apart from
learning about what I can expect from which people on this board, but
also in the sense that I have now seen - with my own eyes - the effects
of using developer at the incorrect temperature.

Now - what do I know that others who just accept the mandates don't? I
know exactly what my negatives will look like if I process them this
way. So, maybe in the future - if I have need of bleached negatives
(for whatever reason that is unforeseeable at this time) then I know
exactly how to do it and exactly what they will look like.

Perhaps you would like to read my treatise on why digital is evil on
rexthestrange.com - there I talk about the value of experimentation.

That's just the kind of person I am.

rts.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 22 Aug 2005 20:16 GMT
> Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:

> > _Don't think_, thinking interferes with learning:  You just argue with the
> > book because you thought up something different.

> I have a very big problem with just accepting things
> without knowing "why"

you should accept things without first knowing why:

o Until you know all about the 'what' you can not understand
 the 'why';

o If you listen long enough, a satisfying quantity of 'why'
 will be taught;

o 'Why' is covered in graduate school: It's your thesis;

o Why? -- Just "Because", so stop pestering me with questions...

o Nobody knows

o God said so.

Oh, BTW, _why_ do 'one and one equal two'?  And, why is that?...

             *           *           *

I think the universal consensus on this group would be:

    >>> Do it by the book until you get good results <<<

_Then_

1) Read Mease & Co.
2) Experiment
3) Discover
4) -Now- you talk to the world

> and what will happen if I don't do what has been dictated.

Until you know what will happen you can not know about what
will not happen.

The ways that work are finite.
The ways that don't work are infinite.
You are getting lost in the latter.

> and what will be the results.

Until you do it the 'right' way you can't even _describe_ the
results, much less be told them: "My negatives are thinner
than .... er, they are thin ... I don't know how to
describe it ... "  ---

 We think the poster is looking at thin negatives,
but
 She is staring at jet-black negatives with no contrast
 and doesn't yet know the difference between "thin", "contrast"
 and "density" excepting they are 'photographic type' words,
 and her prints look, well, thin.  So the negatives are thin,
 natch.

I'm sorry Rex, photographically you are asking questions
with no subject: Why? why? I want to know why! -  Why do I
want to know why? - Why is it that I want to know why I want
to know why? ... I don't want someone to just _dictate_
the answer to "why", I want to know what will happen if
I don't do why?  --- don't do why???? ---

I want to know why is there why.

> All in all this has been an excellent learning experience - apart from
> learning about what I can expect from people... on this board

No, "about people" is the main thing you have learned.  About
photography you have learned next to nothing, it can all
be explained in two pages of a book...

> I have seen ....  the effects of using developer at the
> incorrect temperature.

And if you had not seen the effects of normal temperature would
go through life believing that it is your low-temperature results
that are 'normal' - and everyone else is talking through their patoot.

> Now - what do I know that others who just
> accept the mandates don't?

Less.  Much less.

> I have a very big PROBLEM ...

Oh, Rex, if you  were a politician and they got that on tape...

> why and what will happen if I don't do what has been dictated.

Bingo.  Revelation.

-  You don't need to know about photography, you need to know about
   learning.


Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

Rex the Strange - 22 Aug 2005 20:28 GMT
> > Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 103 lines]
> To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
> Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

Hmm. I think it's time to start worrying about you ;)

Contrary to popular belief I have far more knowledge that I have
displayed on this board. The answer to my question was simple: cold
developer causes your negatives to appear underexposed.

Now I have that knowledge.

If it's any consolation I still don't have the "why" - although I could
extrapolate from my rudimentary knowledge of chemistry.

Come to think of it, I don't even know "why" I'm debating this point.
UC - 22 Aug 2005 21:54 GMT
> Contrary to popular belief I have far more knowledge that I have
> displayed on this board. The answer to my question was simple: cold
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Come to think of it, I don't even know "why" I'm debating this point.

The appearance of underexposed and underdeveloped negatives is not
identical. Underexposed but properly developed negatives will have
normal contrast in the heaviest portions, but those portions will be
thinner than normal. The thinnest portions will have very little
denisty at all, unlike a correctly exposed negative whose shadows will
have density. Underdeveloped but correctly exposed negatives will on
the other hand have weak density overall, and lack contrast everywhere
on the negative.
John - 23 Aug 2005 03:21 GMT
>The answer to my question was simple: cold
>developer causes your negatives to appear underexposed.

Incorrect. Cold developers _may_ be a cause of under-development in a
process if the temperature is not factored in. Extending the time of
the processing (sometimes manyfold) will usually compensate for the
temperature as long as it's not too extreme. For instance: D76 is a EQ
formula but the pH is low enough that the hydroquinone doesn't
appreciably develop the halides in an image, Elon isn't particularly
temperature sensitive so D76 should be only minimally impacted by a
temperature variation.

In contrast a PQ formula such as T-Max is optimized for a somewhat
higher processing temperature as its primary feveloping agent is
hydroquinone which stops working almost completely at low temperatures
in formulas with an average pH.
John
Webmater - Photographer - Computer Tech - Mechanic - And a lot more !
Sites : www.puresilver.org -www.xs750.net - www,picknparlor.net

John - www.750.net
John - 23 Aug 2005 03:12 GMT
> Until you know all about the 'what' you can not understand
>  the 'why';

Care to explain this to my wife ?     ;>0

John
Webmater - Photographer - Computer Tech - Mechanic - And a lot more !
Sites : www.puresilver.org -www.xs750.net - www,picknparlor.net

John - www.750.net
John - 23 Aug 2005 03:05 GMT
>That's an interesting post, Nicholas, but I have a very big problem
>with just accepting things without knowing why and what will happen if
>I don't do what has been dictated.

First learn the rules. Next, break them. In that order.

John - www.puresilver,org
 
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