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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / July 2005DIY Rapid Fix
Can someone throw a Rapid Fixer formula at me. Preferably a non-smelly, non-hardening type. Thanks.  Signature"In a very real and terrifying sense, our Government is the CIA and the Pentagon, with Congress reduced to a debating society. Of course, you can't spot this trend to fascism by casually looking around. You can't look for such familiar signs as the swastika, because they won't be there. We won't build Dachaus and Auschwitzes; the clever manipulation of the mass media is creating a concentration camp of the mind that promises to be far more effective in keeping the populace in line. We're not going to wake up one morning and suddenly find ourselves in gray uniforms goose-stepping off to work. But this isn't the test. The test is: What happens to the individual who dissents? In Nazi Germany, he was physically destroyed; here, the process is more subtle, but the end results can be the same. I've learned enough about the machinations of the CIA in the past year to know that this is no longer the dreamworld America I once believed in. The imperatives of the population explosion, which almost inevitably will lessen our belief in the sanctity of the individual human life, combined with the awesome power of the CIA and the defense establishment, seem destined to seal the fate of the America I knew as a child and bring us into a new Orwellian world where the citizen exists for the state and where raw power justifies any and every immoral act. I've always had a kind of knee-jerk trust in my Government's basic integrity, whatever political blunders it may make. But I've come to realize that in Washington, deceiving and manipulating the public are viewed by some as the natural prerogatives of office. Huey Long once said, 'Fascism will come to America in the name of anti-fascism.' I'm afraid, based on my own experience, that fascism will come to America in the name of national security." --Jim Garrison's Interview with Playboy Magazine, October 1967 > Can someone throw a Rapid Fixer formula at me. > Preferably a non-smelly, non-hardening type. Thanks. Use unadulterated ammonium thiosulfate. Dilute to your satisfaction but be sure to use enough in the solution volume needed to do the job. I've measured the ph at 7.5 +/- a tenth or two. I doubt you'll detect any oder. Dan unadulterated AT has tendency for oxidation and decomposition. It should be supplemented by addition of small amount of sodium sulfite. *RE: geo wrote: *> *> Can someone throw a Rapid Fixer formula at me. *> Preferably a non-smelly, non-hardening type. Thanks. *> * * Use unadulterated ammonium thiosulfate. Dilute to your *satisfaction but be sure to use enough in the solution *volume needed to do the job. * I've measured the ph at 7.5 +/- a tenth or two. I doubt *you'll detect any oder. Dan > Unadulterated AT has tendency for oxidation and > decomposition. It should be supplemented by addition > of small amount of sodium sulfite. Maybe 10% by weight? I over-looked the fact that most reuse their fixer; into the tank or tray then back into a bottle. I use fixer one-shot; no need for preservative. A. Thio. fix is kept at or near concentrate strength untill just prior to it's final dilution at time of use. Although slower, S. Thiosulfate ANHYDROUS can be mixed from the solid just prior to use. Keep a bottle of the ANHYDROUS on the shelf. I think it will last for many years. It is the S. or A. Thios that do the fixing. The Ph runs near neutral for the S. and the mid 7s for the A. Dan > *RE: geo wrote: > *> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > * I've measured the ph at 7.5 +/- a tenth or two. I doubt > *you'll detect any oder. Dan >Although slower, S. Thiosulfate ANHYDROUS can be >mixed from the solid just prior to use. Keep a bottle >of the ANHYDROUS on the shelf. I think it will last >for many years. July 11, 2005, from Lloyd Erlick, It will indeed last for years. I buy sodium thiosulfate anhydrous in hundred pound bags; last time, I bought two bags. I transfer the powder to the kind of heavy 15 or 20 liter polyethylene pails restaurants put out in the garbage. The lids are tight, they have to be put on with a mallet. Mine lasts at least four-five years this way. I'm sure longer is easily possible. regards, --le Signature________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________ May I ask just where you are able to buy this quantity of ST( or AT for that matter) and get it delivered? I haven't found any easy answers here in the US. -Lew >May I ask just where you are able to buy this quantity of ST( or AT for that >matter) and get it delivered? I haven't found any easy answers here in the >US. >-Lew July 23, 2005, from Lloyd Erlick, Finding it and buying it are pretty easy. Mostly I looked in the yellow pages and phoned around. Talking to people in the mini-lab business helped. Some chemical suppliers do not use the word 'chemicals' in their name or advertising. My favorite here in Toronto is called 'Signal'. I've got an article on my website about bulk chemicals. The 'getting delivered' art is more difficult. Any chemical dealer I've ever met likes cash payment, and if you're lucky they'll put it in your vehicle. Personally, I borrow a car (or rent) for the excursion to visit the nice thiosulfate man. regards, --le Signature________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________ -------------------------- * Maybe 10% by weight? I over-looked the fact that *most reuse their fixer; into the tank or tray *then back into a bottle. 10% of sulfite is too much, 10-50 g/L, it is not that critical, and the cost is minimal. * I use fixer one-shot; no need for preservative. *A. Thio. fix is kept at or near concentrate strength *untill just prior to it's final dilution at time of use. * Although slower, S. Thiosulfate ANHYDROUS can be *mixed from the solid just prior to use. Keep a bottle *of the ANHYDROUS on the shelf. I think it will last *for many years. If you keep AT as a concentrate, you should use sulfite as an anti-oxidant. Otherwise thiosulfate will decompose. You don't mix with sulfite if you store thiosulfates in powdery form. There is no difference between crystalline and anhydrous sodium thiosulfate, just 10 molecules of water. Both dissolve well in water. I prefer crystalline, because it does not clump. Crystalline ST is as stable as anhydrous, providing stored in closed jar. * It is the S. or A. Thios that do the fixing. The Ph *runs near neutral for the S. and the mid 7s *for the A. Dan * *> *> *> *RE: geo wrote: *> *> *> *> Can someone throw a Rapid Fixer formula at me. *> *> Preferably a non-smelly, non-hardening type. Thanks. *> *> *> * *> * Use unadulterated ammonium thiosulfate. Dilute to your *> *satisfaction but be sure to use enough in the solution *> *volume needed to do the job. *> * I've measured the ph at 7.5 +/- a tenth or two. I doubt *> *you'll detect any oder. Dan > There is no difference between crystalline and > anhydrous sodium thiosulfate, just 10 molecules > of water. Both dissolve well in water. I think you meant to say 5 molecules. I've only read of it as being the penta hydrate. Both dissolve well but the penta will chill the water; not the thing to do just prior to use. Dan *RE: nailer wrote: *> *> There is no difference between crystalline and *> anhydrous sodium thiosulfate, just 10 molecules *> of water. Both dissolve well in water. *> * * I think you meant to say 5 molecules. I've only *read of it as being the penta hydrate. * Both dissolve well but the penta will chill the *water; not the thing to do just prior to use. Dan true, only 5. chilling is not a problem if you start at 40°C, > There is no > difference between crystalline and anhydrous sodium thiosulfate, just > 10 molecules of water. Both dissolve well in water. I prefer > crystalline, because it does not clump. Crystalline ST is as stable as > anhydrous, providing stored in closed jar. Note that this difference does mean you need to use more of the crystalline form (by weight) than of the anhydrous form. Most B&W fixer formulas that use sodium thiosulfate call for about 240g of the crystalline form or 152g of the anhydrous form (along with other items) to make a liter of fixer. SignatureRod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking Cookbook has an acid hardening rapid fix ATF-5. If I leave out the acids & potassium alum will that make a good rapid fix? ammonium thiosulfate sodium sulfite acetic acid boric acid potassium alum > Cookbook has an acid hardening rapid fix ATF-5. If I leave out the acids & > potassium alum will that make a good rapid fix? Why not make TF-3? http://www.jackspcs.com/tf3.htm Ammonium thiosulfate (57-60%) 800 ml Sodium Sulfite (anhy) 60 g Sodium Metaborate 5 g Distilled water to make 1000 ml Nick Signature--------------------------------------- "Digital the new ice fishing" --------------------------------------- > Why not make TF-3? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Nick Thanks Nick. Isn't the Kodak Flexicolor formula for C-41 very similar? Couldn't that be used 1:3 for B&W film & paper? Signature"In a very real and terrifying sense, our Government is the CIA and the Pentagon, with Congress reduced to a debating society. Of course, you can't spot this trend to fascism by casually looking around. You can't look for such familiar signs as the swastika, because they won't be there. We won't build Dachaus and Auschwitzes; the clever manipulation of the mass media is creating a concentration camp of the mind that promises to be far more effective in keeping the populace in line. We're not going to wake up one morning and suddenly find ourselves in gray uniforms goose-stepping off to work. But this isn't the test. The test is: What happens to the individual who dissents? In Nazi Germany, he was physically destroyed; here, the process is more subtle, but the end results can be the same. I've learned enough about the machinations of the CIA in the past year to know that this is no longer the dreamworld America I once believed in. The imperatives of the population explosion, which almost inevitably will lessen our belief in the sanctity of the individual human life, combined with the awesome power of the CIA and the defense establishment, seem destined to seal the fate of the America I knew as a child and bring us into a new Orwellian world where the citizen exists for the state and where raw power justifies any and every immoral act. I've always had a kind of knee-jerk trust in my Government's basic integrity, whatever political blunders it may make. But I've come to realize that in Washington, deceiving and manipulating the public are viewed by some as the natural prerogatives of office. Huey Long once said, 'Fascism will come to America in the name of anti-fascism.' I'm afraid, based on my own experience, that fascism will come to America in the name of national security." --Jim Garrison's Interview with Playboy Magazine, October 1967 Yes, Flexicolor Fixer is a bit more acidic I think. I use Agfa FX-Universal (pH=7.5approx) which is also made for colour processing. It has very minimal smell (slight ammonia). Here in Australia it is labelled with black and white dilutions for film and paper. About 1+4 from memory. > Yes, Flexicolor Fixer is a bit more acidic I think. I use Agfa > FX-Universal (pH=7.5approx) which is also made for colour processing. > It has very minimal smell (slight ammonia). Here in Australia it is > labelled with black and white dilutions for film and paper. About 1+4 > from memory. I checked the ingredients and it has Ammonium Sulfate instead of Thiosulfate. Does that make a difference? >> Yes, Flexicolor Fixer is a bit more acidic I think. I use Agfa >> FX-Universal (pH=7.5approx) which is also made for colour processing. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I checked the ingredients and it has Ammonium Sulfate instead of > Thiosulfate. Does that make a difference? Where did this info come from? Here is one MSDS http://siri.org/msds/f2/bkk/bkkpd.html Ingred Name:THIOSULFURIC ACID, DIAMMONIUM SALT (AMMONIUM THIOSULFATE) CAS:7783-18-8 RTECS #:XN6465000 Fraction by Wt: 45-50% Ingred Name:ETHYLENEDIAMINE-TETRAACETIC ACID (EDTA) (SARA III) CAS:60-00-4 RTECS #:AH4025000 Fraction by Wt: 0-1% EPA Rpt Qty:5000 LBS DOT Rpt Qty:5000 LBS Ingred Name:SODIUM SULFITE (2:1) CAS:7757-83-7 RTECS #:WE2150000 Fraction by Wt: 10-15% Ingred Name:AMMONIUM HYDROXIDE (SARA III) CAS:1336-21-6 RTECS #:BQ9625000 Fraction by Wt: 0-1% EPA Rpt Qty:1000 LBS DOT Rpt Qty:1000 LBS Nick Signature--------------------------------------- "Digital the new ice fishing" --------------------------------------- >>> Yes, Flexicolor Fixer is a bit more acidic I think. I use Agfa >>> FX-Universal (pH=7.5approx) which is also made for colour processing. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://siri.org/msds/f2/bkk/bkkpd.html I was talking about Flexicolor. On the label it says Ammonium Sulfite (not Sulfate as I had said) but according to http://www2.siri.org/msds/f2/cky/ckyry.html (great site by the way) it has Ammonium Sulfite AND Ammonium Thiosulfate. So back to the original question: is it usable as a B&W film & paper fixer (1:3)? It's a lot cheaper than B&W rapid fixers I've seen. EASTMAN KODAK COMPANY -- 846 2681,KODAK FLEXICOLOR SM TANK FIXER/C-41SM -- 6750-01-443-3344 ======================================================= MSDS Safety Information ======================================================= FSC: 6750 NIIN: 01-443-3344 MSDS Date: 09/13/2000 MSDS Num: CKYRY Tech Review: 02/13/2001 Product ID: 846 2681,KODAK FLEXICOLOR SM TANK FIXER/C-41SM Responsible Party Cage: 19139 Name: EASTMAN KODAK COMPANY Address: 343 STATE STREET City: ROCHESTER NY 14650 US Info Phone Number: 716-722-5151/(800) 242-2424 Emergency Phone Number: 716 722-5151 ======================================================= Item Description Information ======================================================= Item Manager: S9I Item Name: FIXING BATH, PHOTOGRAPHIC Specification Number: NONE Type/Grade/Class: NONE Unit of Issue: BT Quantitative Expression: 10000000039LI UI Container Qty: 3.9 LITERS Type of Container: BOTTLE ======================================================= Ingredients ======================================================= Cas: 7732-18-5 RTECS #: ZC0110000 Name: WATER % low Wt: 75. % high Wt: 80. Other REC Limits: NOT PROVIDED OSHA PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED ACGIH TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED Ozone Depleting Chemical: N ------------------------------ Cas: 7783-18-8 RTECS #: XN6465000 Name: AMMONIUM THIOSULFATE Percent by Wt: 10. Other REC Limits: NOT PROVIDED OSHA PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED ACGIH TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED Ozone Depleting Chemical: N ------------------------------ Cas: 1762-95-4 RTECS #: XK7875000 Name: AMMONIUM THIOCYANATE = Wt: 8. Other REC Limits: NOT PROVIDED OSHA PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED ACGIH TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED EPA Rpt Qty: 5000 LBS DOT Rpt Qty: 5000 LBS Ozone Depleting Chemical: N ------------------------------ Cas: 7757-83-7 RTECS #: WE2150000 Name: SODIUM SULFITE % low Wt: 1. % high Wt: 5. Other REC Limits: NOT PROVIDED OSHA PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED ACGIH TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED Ozone Depleting Chemical: N ------------------------------ Cas: 10196-04-0 Name: AMMONIUM SULFITE < Wt: 1. Other REC Limits: NOT PROVIDED OSHA PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED ACGIH TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED EPA Rpt Qty: 5000 LBS DOT Rpt Qty: 5000 LBS Ozone Depleting Chemical: N > I was talking about Flexicolor. On the label it says Ammonium Sulfite (not > Sulfate as I had said) but according to > http://www2.siri.org/msds/f2/cky/ckyry.html (great site by the way) it has > Ammonium Sulfite AND Ammonium Thiosulfate. So back to the original question: > is it usable as a B&W film & paper fixer (1:3)? It's a lot cheaper than B&W > rapid fixers I've seen. Is this working strength? > ------------------------------ > Cas: 7783-18-8 > RTECS #: XN6465000 > Name: AMMONIUM THIOSULFATE > Percent by Wt: 10. That 10% seems too low. This MSDS http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/msds/docs/wcd0001a/wcd01aa7.htm Ingredient Name AMMONIUM THIOSULFATE CAS Number 7783188 NIOSH Number XN6465000 Proprietary NO Percent 50-55 Shows 50-55%. That sounds more normal for the concentrate. I'd suggest asking Kodak but nothing wierd jumps out at me. It's even cheaper if you buy the big bottle-) I think I figured out the 10%. You looked at KODAK FLEXICOLOR SM. That's premixed stuff. It's not the normal Flexicolor. The above link I gave with the 50% is the normal stuff. You don't want the SM stuff. You want the stuff you have to mix up yourself. http://www.adorama.com/KKFCFR5G.html Normal stuff that you can dilute. http://www.adorama.com/KKFCSMF.html The premixed SM stuff. Nick Signature--------------------------------------- "Digital the new ice fishing" --------------------------------------- *I was talking about Flexicolor. On the label it says Ammonium Sulfite (not *Sulfate as I had said) but according to *http://www2.siri.org/msds/f2/cky/ckyry.html (great site by the way) it has *Ammonium Sulfite AND Ammonium Thiosulfate. So back to the original question: *is it usable as a B&W film & paper fixer (1:3)? It's a lot cheaper than B&W *rapid fixers I've seen. * correct, it does make sense to have both. >>>> Yes, Flexicolor Fixer is a bit more acidic I think. I >>>> use Agfa [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > usable as a B&W film & paper fixer (1:3)? It's a lot > cheaper than B&W rapid fixers I've seen. Kodak MSDS snipped... It should work fine for B&W. Ammonium thiosulfate is the "rapid" fixer, standard fixing baths use Sodium thiosulfate. I don't know why Ammonium sulfite was chosen but its function will be the same as sodium sulfite, namely to preserve the thiosulfate and to prevent staining by carried over developer. I would use a water rinse rather than an acid stop bath this this or the Agfa Universal fixing bath. There is little different between standard fixing baths and rapid fixing baths other than the use of Ammonium thiosulfate instead of Sodium thiosulfate. Fixing baths for color processes are usually either neutral pH or slightly alkaline to prevent decolorizing of the dyes. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com >> It should work fine for B&W. Ammonium thiosulfate is the > "rapid" fixer, standard fixing baths use Sodium thiosulfate. I don't know [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > thiosulfate. Fixing baths for color processes are usually either neutral > pH or slightly alkaline to prevent decolorizing of the dyes. I notice it says 1:4. Should I use that dilution instead of 1:3? it doesa not make sense, you must have thiosulfate as complexing agent, sulfate would act as a mild hardener (providing it is aluminium), you should have sulfite as a conservant. where did sulfate come from? *<jo.sto@bigpond.com> wrote in message *news:1120953820.541497.229350@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... *> Yes, Flexicolor Fixer is a bit more acidic I think. I use Agfa *> FX-Universal (pH=7.5approx) which is also made for colour processing. *> It has very minimal smell (slight ammonia). Here in Australia it is *> labelled with black and white dilutions for film and paper. About 1+4 *> from memory. * *I checked the ingredients and it has Ammonium Sulfate instead of *Thiosulfate. Does that make a difference? * |
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