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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / June 2005Formula req
Does anyone have the formula for Rodinal. I'd appreciate it if someone could post or email me. TIA Duncan > Does anyone have the formula for Rodinal. > > I'd appreciate it if someone could post or email me. > > TIA Duncan Hot water 1000ml Para-Aminophenol 100gm Potassium Metabisulfite 300gm Potassium Hydroxide (50% Sol) Add until precipitate is almost but not entirely dissolved. Thank you for such a swift post, Thanks. Duncan > > Does anyone have the formula for Rodinal. > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Potassium Hydroxide (50% Sol) > Add until precipitate is almost but not entirely dissolved. > Does anyone have the formula for Rodinal. > > I'd appreciate it if someone could post or email me. > > TIA Duncan The actual formula and method of mixing for Rodinal is proprietary but there have been many published formulae for what is supposed to be the same thing. I have two formulas at least. Here is one that seems to be reliable. I have not tried this so can't vouch for it. If you try it please let me know if it works. I note that the current label on Rodinal indicates it has some EDTA in it but this would not have been in the original. EDTA is a sequestering agent which can serve to help other chemicals go into solution better. Rodinal Formula No.1, from _The Film Developing Cookbook_ Solution A Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml para-aminophenol hydrochloride 100.0 grams Potassium Metabisulfite 300.0 grams Cold water to make 1.0 liter Solution B Cold water 300.0 ml Sodium Hydroxide 200.0 grams Cold water to make 400.0 ml Allow solution A to cool. A precipitate of p-aminophenol will form. Place solution A in an ice water bath and slowly add solution B with continuous stirring until a sudden darkening of color takes place. Finally, add drop by drop, Solution B until only a few crystals of the precipitate remain. These crystals are important if the mixture is to have long life. In other formulas for Rodinal it is suggested that a small amount of p-aminophenol hydrochloride can be added if all the precipitate should dissolve. It is added until a few crystals remain. The label of current Rodinal indicates it has some Potassium bromide in it. Although p-aminophenol is supposed to be a low fog developer the presense of the hydroxide may require some bromide as an anti-foggant. I don't know how much to add. Bromide can also be added to the working solution. Perhaps a gram per liter. I can't now remember the source for the other detailed instructions for making Rodinal but will look in a couple of places for it. Note that most other formulas I've seen for Rodinal prescribe Potassium hydroxide. Potassium hydroxide is what is listed in the Rodinal MSDS and on the label. Potassium hydroxide has the advantage of dissolving in grater concentration than Sodium hydroxide. Safety Note: Both Sodium and Potassium Hydroxide are very exothermic, i.e., generate copious amounts of heat when they go into solution. Dissolve either in cold water in a heatproof and shatter proof container. Dissolve them slowly. Wear protective clothing, gloves, and eye protection when mixing them.  Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com * * EDTA is a sequestering agent which can serve to *help other chemicals go into solution better. not correct, EDTA or any other sequestering agent is to dissolve calcium/magnesium salts forming unsoluble deposits. * * The label of current Rodinal indicates it has some *Potassium bromide in it. Although p-aminophenol is supposed *to be a low fog developer the presense of the hydroxide may *require some bromide as an anti-foggant. I don't know how *much to add. Bromide can also be added to the working *solution. Perhaps a gram per liter. probably too much for a working solution. EDTA has several functions. Sequestering permanent hardness is one of them, it does that by making othewise insoluble substances soluble. It can do the same for the components of the developer. My guess about the bromide is based on the amount used in other developers. However, without knowing the true Rodinal formula its a little difficult to say just how much should be used. However, I didn't state the dilution. Probably a gram would be right for the lowest dilution, around 1:25 and too much for higher dilutions. Richard Knoppow dickburk@ix.netcom.com Richard, with all respect, you are wrong. I challange you to support your statement with hard evidence or a reference to scientific publication - how can EDTA do anything else than to dissolve insoluble salts of magnesium and calcium? please explain "it can do the same for the component of the developer". * EDTA has several functions. Sequestering permanent hardness is one *of them, it does that by making othewise insoluble substances soluble. *It can do the same for the components of the developer. * My guess about the bromide is based on the amount used in other *developers. However, without knowing the true Rodinal formula its a *little difficult to say just how much should be used. However, I didn't *state the dilution. Probably a gram would be right for the lowest *dilution, around 1:25 and too much for higher dilutions. * *Richard Knoppow *dickburk@ix.netcom.com Well, I am not a chemist so I may be wrong. EDTA, as I understand it, can bind metal ions of many types. These include the anions of magnesium and calcium carbonates, which are the most common permanent hardness in water. They may or may not also tend to help keep the high concentraton of potassium carbonate in Rodinal in solution. I don't know for certain. EDTA is certainly used in many packaged developers and fixing baths to avoid a deposit of mineral matter on the film or paper. I suggest that if you think I am wrong that you provide a good explanation of what EDTA does at a level people who read this group can understand. I will ask a friend who is a Phd chemist about this because I am curious myself. If I learn anything useful I will post back to this thread. Richard Knoppow dickburk@ix.netcom.com Richard, you expect too much. Unlike you, I do not have time to teach people basics of chemistry, I can only suggest anyone to consult a text-book on analytical chemistry, chapter dedicated to complexometry. EDTA does NOT form complexes with monovalent cations, like sodium or potassium. It does form complexes with Ca, Mg and other two- valent cations as well as heavy metals. EDTA does NOT bind anions!! EDTA does NOT help to keep high concentration of KOH (see above) The ONLY reason to add EDTA or similar compounds is to prevent deposits of calcium and magnesium salts. As I said, chemistry of EDTA is very well known and described in monografies as well as in ordinary text books on analytical chemistry. If you wish to learn, check in your local library or at the nearest uni. Titration with EDTA uis one of the most common tests (water hardness, for example). * * Well, I am not a chemist so I may be wrong. EDTA, as I understand *it, can bind metal ions of many types. These include the anions of *magnesium and calcium carbonates, which are the most common permanent *hardness in water. They may or may not also tend to help keep the high *concentraton of potassium carbonate in Rodinal in solution. I don't *know for certain. EDTA is certainly used in many packaged developers *and fixing baths to avoid a deposit of mineral matter on the film or *paper. * I suggest that if you think I am wrong that you provide a good *explanation of what EDTA does at a level people who read this group can *understand. * I will ask a friend who is a Phd chemist about this because I am *curious myself. If I learn anything useful I will post back to this *thread. * *Richard Knoppow *dickburk@ix.netcom.com It seems as though my original post for the Rodinal formula has diverted on an interesting tangent. I have become MORE interested in the chemical side of photography than I ever was pre-digital! But I had a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDTA to see what the discussion was about. Thought it would be helpful for all who are following this thread. Regards Duncan > Richard, > you expect too much. Unlike you, I do not have time to teach people [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > *Richard Knoppow > *dickburk@ix.netcom.com > Richard, > you expect too much. Unlike you, I do not have time to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > on analytical chemistry, chapter dedicated to > complexometry. Then do not take part in groups like this. The purpose of news groups is to exchange knowledge. You have no idea what I do or who I am outside this group so don't guess about time and make comparisons. I am BTW always very suspicious of this sort of excuse for being parsimonious with knowledge. I DO try to share whatever knowledge I have. I try to have information which is correct, but I am, like most photographers, not a specialist in the sometimes complex areas of specialty, like organic chemistry, on which it is based. Others, who do have the specialized knowledge, have, in the past, been very generous with their time and knowledge. For example, I suggest you do a Google search for Michael Gudzinowicz, a Phd chemist who used to post to this group often. I know that tritration with EDTA is a standard method of measuring water "hardness". Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com >> Richard, >> you expect too much. Unlike you, I do not have time to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> on analytical chemistry, chapter dedicated to >> complexometry. > Then do not take part in groups like this. The purpose of >news groups is to exchange knowledge. ... > Others, who do have the specialized knowledge, have, in >the past, been very generous with their time and knowledge. >For example, I suggest you do a Google search for Michael >Gudzinowicz, a Phd chemist who used to post to this group >often. A lot of us appreciate thoughtful responses. The thoughtful and informative posts are what makes this group shine, and separates this newsgroup from the usual net.dreck: FUD posts, my equipment vs. your equipment, end of this or that nigh, "I'm smart but I can't follow a trivial hyperlink and have never heard of google", "I have no idea what the operating or break-even costs are for making and distributing my favorite product, but I'm sure everyone who disagrees with my business strategy must be an evil idiot", etc. Enjoy the good stuff, man. [And yes, this post is labeled OT too.] Richard, I have to say - you are rude person. It is not your business, what I am doing here. It is not a requirement to participate or participate in a certain way. If you do not like it, create your own forum elswhere. I have sufficient idea about you from your posts. I appreciate your input, which is valuable for less advanced photographers. However, I've noticed that chemistry is not your strength. If you want to educate others, you need to learn more, otherwise you will make more mistakes. Some people consider you as a guru, do not fail them. I do not need to consult M. Gudzinowicz, I am very well conversant with the subject. I understand you are upset because I demonstrated your shortcomings. A wise man would just admit his fault and move on. Just learn from your mistake, do not offend others. Finally, I sugest, we finish being personal? OK? On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:51:47 GMT, "Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix.netcom.com> wrote: * *"nailer" <unlisted@due2spam.on.net> wrote in message *news:4t2gb1h6pl45putg8k2bep09boi3i8fcc9@4ax.com... *> Richard, *> you expect too much. Unlike you, I do not have time to *> teach people *> basics of chemistry, I can only suggest anyone to consult *> a text-book *> on analytical chemistry, chapter dedicated to *> complexometry. * * Then do not take part in groups like this. The purpose of *news groups is to exchange knowledge. You have no idea what *I do or who I am outside this group so don't guess about *time and make comparisons. I am BTW always very suspicious *of this sort of excuse for being parsimonious with *knowledge. * I DO try to share whatever knowledge I have. I try to *have information which is correct, but I am, like most *photographers, not a specialist in the sometimes complex *areas of specialty, like organic chemistry, on which it is *based. * Others, who do have the specialized knowledge, have, in *the past, been very generous with their time and knowledge. *For example, I suggest you do a Google search for Michael *Gudzinowicz, a Phd chemist who used to post to this group *often. * I know that tritration with EDTA is a standard method of *measuring water "hardness". No it is not OK and I suggest you are the one guilty of rudness. You made it my business by the way you answered my post. I have also been a very long time participant here which also gives me some interest in the way things are conducted. To answer some specific points: I have made it clear in the past that I am not a chemist. I do, however, try to get my information from well recognized sources including those texts that have become standard in the art. If you spot an error that's fine, but you must do more than simply throw a rock at it. I have never claimed to be a guru, if others think I am its not my doing. They may have found my posts helpful. What I know about photography comes from a lifelong passion and curiosity for it. It has driven me to learn something about some pretty obscure specialties like optics and photographic chemistry. You are also evidently not very good at reading. My suggestion about looking up Mike Gudzinowicz's posts was not to learn photo chemistry but rather as an example of someone who was generous with his knowledge and was capable of taking the time to explain somewhat difficult subjects in an understandable way. The fact is that you _do_ need to see how this is done. It is certainly not done by starting off a post with "Wrong!" as you have done. As far as being offensive perhaps you don't get the point that there was plenty of offence on your side. Frankly, there is something very strange here, perhaps a little trolling going on. Getting personal and then expecting the other guy to just go away is typical troll technique. Please notice that I supplied a good anwer to the original post. You contributed nothing. Richard Knoppow dickburk@ix.netcom.com ... perhaps a little >trolling going on. >Getting personal and then expecting the other guy to just go away is >typical troll technique. ... jun2205 from Lloyd Erlick, I think you are absolutely right! And thank you, Richard, for not repeating the troll. It seems my filters have worked -- I see no evidence of the post to which you are responding. What a pleasure! regards, --le Signature________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________ > I have to say - you are rude person Son, could you come down to Tennessee ? I'd like to introduce you to a few of the natives. Bore and Bubba. The first will make sure you get plenty of exercise and the second will teach you a few facts of life. In the 8~9 years I've participated in this group, Richard has NEVER been rude. SignatureJohn - www.puresilver.org >>I have to say - you are rude person > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > In the 8~9 years I've participated in this group, Richard has NEVER been > rude. Yo John Bouy! The blues are blitzin' and the stripers have stocked the bay. It's frightin' to hear that yer kin B & B are out wanderin' around. Say "Hi!" to little Billie Jean and Billy Gene, and their mom, Billie Bobbette. And whatever happened to Bustah and the Bigfoot? Since you are the keeper of all posts on p-AP, please add Richard's first reply to the archive. Some speculation arising from that post: Richard wrote: > I note that the current label on Rodinal indicates it has > some EDTA in it but this would not have been in the > original. EDTA is a sequestering agent which can serve to > help other chemicals go into solution better. Rodinal is quite basic and will absorb carbon dioxide after repeated exposure to air. The EDTA may be there to chelate any calcium in the water to prevent the eventual precipitation of calcium carbonate or metal hydroxides in the working solution, since Agfa has no control over the water used for dilution. It's not a bad idea to use EDTA in caustic developers, but it may not be necessary. After Agfa pulled the cork from the bottles, they didn't back titrate with bisulfite to get a few crystals by way of the pH adjustment (another way of setting the pH). Perhaps they had production line problems with precipitates. The inclusion of EDTA could also reflect an in-house production problem. Unfortunately the failure to decrease the pH to a point where a small precipitate of pAP forms shortened Rodinal's concentrate shelf life. There's some additional info on stability at (one line): http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.photo.darkroom/browse_thread/ thread/2c6a9064c0693ca2/c72091a611cfaf87?q=gudzinowicz+potassium+bromide +concentration+restrainer&rnum=6#c72091a611cfaf87 Richard wrote: > The label of current Rodinal indicates it has some > Potassium bromide in it. Although p-aminophenol is supposed > to be a low fog developer the presense of the hydroxide may > require some bromide as an anti-foggant. I don't know how > much to add. Bromide can also be added to the working > solution. Perhaps a gram per liter. Someone did the work, and the optimal bromide restrainer concentration was found to be 0.35 to 0.5 g/l. A gram per liter works without additional speed loss. The effect is to convert a long toe into a short toe film by suppressing fog. Again, it may or may not be important. Some high iodide content emulsions may not respond since they are already restrained. (Forward all flames to Bill Troop, who probably has some inside information. I'm outa here - wonder why?) Take care, Mike >>>I have to say - you are rude person >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > The blues are blitzin' and the stripers have stocked the bay. 'bout time ! Give them my best and hopefully I'll be seein' a few of them this fall at Tybee. > It's frightin' to hear that yer kin B & B are out wanderin' around. Say "Hi!" > to little Billie Jean and Billy Gene, and their mom, Billie Bobbette. > And whatever happened to Bustah and the Bigfoot? Doin' well. They have a radio show in Nashville. http://www.rickandbubba.com/ Billie Jean's now selling sausage to all of the "new country" stars Leipers Fork. I figger cholesterol will rid us of "new country" in a few years. > Since you are the keeper of all posts on p-AP, please add Richard's > first reply to the archive. I still keep everything of value in Agent however I've now started using Dialog which has multi-server (news and mail) capabilities. Of course you have to know how to right SQL statements for the rules. Schools out ! Got 97. K's very proud. They want me to go year-round next year. I told them I have to get a little more work done before that can happen. Have the teach comin' over for dinner one night this summer. Tradin' photo-work for aligning the 138. Of course I'll have to put the CLS301 back together first. > Some speculation arising from that post: > <SNIP> > There's some additional info on stability at (one line): > > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.photo.darkroom/browse_thread/ > thread/2c6a9064c0693ca2/c72091a611cfaf87?q=gudzinowicz+potassium+bromide > +concentration+restrainer&rnum=6#c72091a611cfaf87 Those were the days ! Unfortunately r.p.d. seems to get few really good contributors anymore. I'm afraid that digital has taken it's toll here as well.'tween digital and trolls anyway. > (Forward all flames to Bill Troop, who probably has some inside > information. I'm outa here - wonder why?) 'cause fish are smarter than most people. Got the next 4 days off to rebuild the bike, fix the car and the porch. Yep, I'm home ! SignatureJohn - www.puresilver.org > Richard, > I have to say - you are rude person. You must have confused Richard with someone else. Richard Knoppow is never rude. > It is not your business, what I > am doing here. It is not a requirement to participate or participate > in a certain way. If you do not like it, create your own forum > elswhere. Now _that_ is rude. > I have sufficient idea about you from your posts. But you are an amateur at rudeness. Consider the following, directed (years ago) at me: > Hey sh.t for brains. If you would read the post, if you can read, I was > responding to a question. People in this newsgroup warned me about your > arrogance. Do you live in a retard home or something? I was pretty proud of my response at the time. Old timers here may remember this flame war: It seems a little like that, sometimes, but actually I live in an asylum. On the front door is a sign that says "Come Outside." My visitors must park on the carpet. It does look a little peculiar, too. All along what one would normally call the outer wall, which is decorated in a tasteful interior-designed pink, are bookshelves, also a couple of those odd three-legged tables with semicircular tops which stand in such a way is to suggest that someone just dropped the wall straight through them, and pictures which are clearly designed to soothe. The roof is kind-of strange, too. It folds back on itself like something that Maurice C. Escher, had he been given to hard nights on the town, which it is no part of my purpose to suggest is the case, though it is sometimes hard, looking at his pictures, particularly the one with all the awkward steps, not to wonder, might have dreamed up after having been on one, for the little chandeliers which should be hanging inside are on the outside pointing up. Some people find this confusing. Inside is where the Outside is. Rough brickwork, nicely done pointing, gutters in good repair, a garden path, a couple of small trees, some rooms leading off. Inside, over the front door is a sign which reads: "Hold stick near center of its length. Moisten pointed end in mouth. Insert in tooth space, blunt end next to gum. Use gentle in-out motion." You might feel quite at home here, once you learned how to fit in. I wonder if the O.P. in this little flame war was your father? > I appreciate your > input, which is valuable for less advanced photographers. However, > I've noticed that chemistry is not your strength. If you want to > educate others, you need to learn more, otherwise you will make more > mistakes. Some people consider you as a guru, do not fail them. Arrant arrogance. > I do not need to consult M. Gudzinowicz, I am very well conversant > with the subject. How fortunate for you. > I understand you are upset because I demonstrated your shortcomings. Fer Gawd's sake! > A wise man would just admit his fault and move on. Just learn from > your mistake, do not offend others. > Finally, I sugest, we finish being personal? OK? Who got personal? What hot button of yours did Mr. Knoppow inadvertantly push? Signature.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 07:10:00 up 7 days, 1:00, 3 users, load average: 6.26, 6.19, 6.16 ...and how exactly SIR/MADAM do you contribute to this group, whoever you are? Nit picking aside, because that's essentially all you've done....take it to rec.drugs.chemistry if you want a pissing match with organic chemists. > Richard, > I have to say - you are rude person. It is not your business, what I [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > * I know that tritration with EDTA is a standard method of > *measuring water "hardness". *...and how exactly SIR/MADAM do you contribute to this group, whoever you *are? Nit picking aside, because that's essentially all you've done....take *it to rec.drugs.chemistry if you want a pissing match with organic chemists. * For start, I indicated that R. Knoppow was wrong regarding books. Then I indicated his lack of understanding of simple concepts of chemistry. It may be unpleasant for Richard, but consider people blindly following him. Richard has made a significant contribution helping people with many tasks, but he should stay clear away from chemistry. I wish I have a dollar for each time he missed the point. So, my little contribution was to tell about new and interesting book, which would enable him and others to broaden your knowledge of photographic chemistry. My contribution was to warn Richard, he makes mistakes. In my view mistakes that are too serious to be left unanswered. I am not fighter, I have no interest in drugs. You guys act like society of mutual adoration. Maybe I am naive, but I believe people should be more responsible for their own actions. Not giving advice is better than giving a wrong one. Contrary to Richards request, it is not viable to explain chemistry of EDTA in plain text. RPD does not allow for binary files, teaching organic chemistry without graphs, images, drawings etc is impossible. It also requires some background, understanding of bonds, electron configuration etc. That is best done at home or library, unless you attend a structured course at college or uni. Richard may be the nicest chap in the group, but it does not make him infallible in subject of chemistry. I am sorry for telling you that. <snip> >Maybe I am naive No, you're just a dickhead. you are too shy to admit you are a dickhead. So you project on others? What is your comment regarding EDTA in developers? Ah? . Listnen, little boy. You have already learnt one bad word. Now go and wash your mouth. Ask Mummy to teach you good manners. *On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:46:07 GMT, nailer <unlisted@due2spam.on.net> *wrote: * *<snip> * *>Maybe I am naive * *No, you're just a dickhead. > you are too shy to admit you are a dickhead. I guess someone is off his medication. Signature.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 07:50:00 up 8 days, 1:40, 3 users, load average: 6.70, 5.72, 5.26 >> you are too shy to admit you are a dickhead. > > I guess someone is off his medication. Is this Scarpetti in another guise ? SignatureJohn - www.puresilver.org >Is this Scarpetti in another guise ? Somehow, I don't think so. Mr S. can be very offensive at times, but he's never as conceited as this one. > >Is this Scarpetti in another guise ? > > Somehow, I don't think so. Mr S. can be very offensive at times, but > he's never as conceited as this one. I have only one guise, and this is it.... The formula for Rodinal is proprietary (that means 'not published' for the sake of the illiterate here). Approximations have been published and may be found in various sources... >>> you are too shy to admit you are a dickhead. >> >> I guess someone is off his medication. > > Is this Scarpetti in another guise ? I don't think so. He and I have had private correspondence and this is just not typical at all. I have no idea of who this is, nor do I particularly care. Its interesting that he stated that he had looked at some of my posts. When I checked Google for his stuff I found that he has set his posts not to be archived so there are only about five there. I guess he doesn't want to leave a trail. Heigh-ho. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com Nailer, you're way out of line. >Richard, >I have to say - you are rude person. It is not your business, what I [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >* I know that tritration with EDTA is a standard method of >*measuring water "hardness". Nailer, you're the rude one. Your "sufficient idea" of Richard's past posts is arrogent and hypocritical since your own posts will disappear in a few days. Not that any of the rest of us will care what you've said anyway. Add me to the list of people who think Richard is one of the best members of these groups. TB Aha, I see that a new idiot has joined our ranks. grunthos > Richard, > with all respect, you are wrong. I challange you to support your [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > *Richard Knoppow > *dickburk@ix.netcom.com how refreshing! so, you are sitting in front of a mirror? it is ALL you can add to discussion on some aspects of chemistry?? Richard will be very proud and grateful for all your input. Very well done, indeed. Is the rest of the group from the same class? *Aha, *I see that a new idiot has joined our ranks. * * *grunthos * * *nailer wrote * *: *> Richard, *> with all respect, you are wrong. I challange you to support your *> statement with hard evidence or a reference to scientific publication *> - *> how can EDTA do anything else than to dissolve insoluble salts of *> magnesium and calcium? *> *> please explain "it can do the same for the component of the *> developer". *> *> *> On 19 Jun 2005 05:30:06 -0700, "Richard Knoppow" *> <dickburk@ix.netcom.com> wrote: *> *> * EDTA has several functions. Sequestering permanent hardness is one *> *of them, it does that by making othewise insoluble substances soluble. *> *It can do the same for the components of the developer. *> * My guess about the bromide is based on the amount used in other *> *developers. However, without knowing the true Rodinal formula its a *> *little difficult to say just how much should be used. However, I didn't *> *state the dilution. Probably a gram would be right for the lowest *> *dilution, around 1:25 and too much for higher dilutions. *> * *> *Richard Knoppow *> *dickburk@ix.netcom.com No, I was referring to ypu. But then you seem to be too friggin' stupid to comprehend. |
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