Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / July 2005
The procedure I've been using for developing tri-x 400tx
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nygdan_morteauxspam@yahoo.com - 01 Jun 2005 04:50 GMT 6 minutes 15 seconds with d-76 @70 degrees, agitate w/5-7 quick inversions, then repeat every 30 seconds. I've been doing a final agigation like the above at the end, right after times up. I also smack the canister into my palm at the end of each agitation bit.
Stop bath, 45s seconds ( i beleive its an ilford stopbath) w/constant agitation
Fix for 4 minutes in Kodak Fixer, agigate for 15 seconds every 30 seconds, with the time for agitation counting as part of that 30 seconds.
A 60 second cold water wash with constant agitation. A 60 second wash in a permawash. A 60 second wash in cold water again.
I keep thinking that thats not enough, I'm a novice, and it 'seems' short, but it is per the bottle's instructions. I then fill with cold water agitate for a few seconds, and then dump that.
Then 15 seconds in a photoflow solution.
Is this a 'good' procedure?
What happens if I fix for more than 4 minutes, likesay 10 minutes? Fixing is supposed to be a process that goes to completion and then stops no? So the maximum amount of time you /need/ is the minimum amount of time it requires to work no?
here http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/Nygdan/Experimental%20BnW/Image4.bmp is a scan of a negative that I made with basically the same procedure as above, except that the fixing time was longer, along the lines of 10 minutes (this is what I had found in the reference papers). The scanner is a Nikon Coolscan III and it was scanned as a negative. The thing that is troubling me is that the top of the structure (which is a stage, but we are looking at it from the back) has tremendous loss of detail in the portions that are directly lit by sunlight,(as in the right most part of the curve and some of the columns) whereas there is still detail in the parts not directly lit (such as in the left most portion of the top of the structure)
(i apologize, photobuck has shrunk the photo done quite a bit)
Here is the same structure from the other side, with similar problems
Here is another one, where anything bright seems to have no detail, whether its hte water, the sky, or the grass in the foreground http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/Nygdan/Experimental%20BnW/Image1.bmp
Richard Knoppow - 01 Jun 2005 05:38 GMT >6 minutes 15 seconds with d-76 @70 degrees, agitate w/5-7 >quick [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > foreground > http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/Nygdan/Experimental%20BnW/Image1.bmp Your procedure is OK. You might want to get the data sheet for Tri-X from the Kodak web site at: http://www.kodak.com type F4016 into the search panel and it should take you to the data sheet. You don't need to hit the tank at the end of every agitation cycle, only at the beginning. After pouring in the developer agitate it continuously for about 30 seconds and what the tank bottom on the sink a couple of times. This is to dislodge any bubbles that may have formed on the surface of the film. Once they are knocked off and the film wetted by the developer they will not reform. Stop bath is non critical as long as the film is in it long enough to stop development. The tank should be agitated continuously for at least 15 seconds to prevent streaking from uneven stopping. Usually the stop bath will have deactivated the developer after about 15 seconds but a longer stop won't hurt anything. Kodak recommends fixing in a film strength rapid fixer for 2 to 4 minutes. The way to check the necessary fixing time is to fix a clip of the film you are using. This is just a scrap of undeveloped film. Soak it in water for a couple of minutes, then put it in the fixer and agitate it. See how long it takes to become clear. You should fix for twice that time. As the fixing bath becomes exhausted the clearing time gets longer. The general recommendation is to discard the fixer when the clearing time becomes double the time for a fresh bath. I think this is probably excessive and would discard when the time is about 1.5 times the original. Now, you state you are using Kodak Fixer, that is a brand for powdered fixer of the Sodium thiosulfate type. This needs about 10 minutes to fix out Tri-X when fresh. A better fixer is something like Kodak Rapid Fixer with Hardener. You can leave the hardener out (it comes in a small bottle) its not usually necessary. Rapid fixer will fix out Tri-X in 2 minutes when fresh, Sodium thiosulfate fixer will take about 10 minutes. Tri-X, like T-Max films is slow to fix compared to other films and really should be fixed in rapid fixer. Longer fixing in strong acid rapid fixer can cause some bleaching since the fixer when acid is capable of dissolving some fine grain image silver. However, this is really more a problem for paper than film. Fixer does not need continuous agitation but should be agitated often. The agitation does not have to be so regular as for developer since the fixer is used until the fixing process is complete. If you are using sodium thiosulfate fixer no bleaching will occur unless you leave the film in it for say half an hour, it might take even longer. I am sceptacle about the Perma Wash instructions. The MSDS says the ingredients are proprietary but they are on the label. It contains Ammonium sulfite and sodium sulfite so its not much different than Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent. Kodak labs published a paper on its wash aid some years ago with graphs showing the effectiveness with time. Maximum effect is had in about 4 minutes but film needs only about 2 minutes. Kodak recommends a 5 minute wash after treatment and I suspect this is closer to the mark. The problem with products like Heico is that that they want to keep everything secret. I prefer to know, at least approximately, what is in the stuff I use and also if there is some valid research to back up its effectiveness. The pre wash is to extend the life of the wash aid. If you use it once and dispose of it the pre wash is unnecessary. I use Kodak wash aid as a one-shot but give the film a 30 second pre wash as per instructions. After washing a good final rinse is:
Isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol) 70% 35 ml Kodak Photo Flo 2.5 ml (half recommended strength) Water to make 1.0 liter
This combination makes a sort of super wetting agent and will leave the negatives clean. If your tap water isn't clean make this up with distilled water. Locally, I use tap water which works fine. Soak the film in it for about 2 minutes and hang up to dry without squeegeeing.
I can't make out from the posted pictures what is wrong. That is I don't know if I am looking at scanning problems or film problems. What do the negatives look like? Do they have detail where the scans show them blank. More info will be helpful in finding an answer.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Richard Knoppow - 01 Jun 2005 06:04 GMT >>6 minutes 15 seconds with d-76 @70 degrees, agitate w/5-7 >>quick [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > http://www.kodak.com type F4016 into the search panel and > it should take you to the data sheet. An error crept in here, the correct number for the Tri-X data sheet is F4017 the other is for T-Max.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 05 Jun 2005 23:58 GMT > Kodak recommends fixing in a film strength > rapid fixer for 2 to 4 minutes. Kodak is not the only one to "recommend" a film strength fixer for film. Perhaps 'suggests' would be a better word. The only reason for a 'film' strength fixer is film's great per unit volume tolerance for silver in solution. In plain English, a hell of a lot of film can be fixed in a small volume of strong fixer. If one has determind quantitatively, as I have, the actual amount of A. or S. Thiosulfate needed per roll or sheet, then a much more dilute fixer can be used and used one-shot. As the actual amount of A. or S. Thio. is small compared with the volume of solution needed to process, one may rest assured an archival fix has been achieved AND with one fix. Two limits when fixing; the chemistry's capacity limit AND the per unit volume silver limit. Dan
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 06 Jun 2005 10:20 GMT > > Kodak recommends fixing in a film strength > > rapid fixer for 2 to 4 minutes. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Two limits when fixing; the chemistry's capacity limit AND > the per unit volume silver limit. Dan I'll have to qualify the above with regards to archival results with one fix. I had in mind one roll/reel and a full tank. For 35mm shooters a two reel tank should be used. Keep in mind, A. or S. Thiosulfate the capacity per unit volume is the same. Dan
Richard Knoppow - 09 Jun 2005 00:42 GMT >> > Kodak recommends fixing in a film strength >> > rapid fixer for 2 to 4 minutes. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Keep in mind, A. or S. Thiosulfate the capacity per unit > volume is the same. Dan The capacity of a fixing bath to fix depends on the amount of free thiosulfate ions available to form complexes with the silver halide. It takes three thiosulfate ions to complex one halide ion. The conversion of the halide from the insoluble form it has in the emulsion to a fully soluble form is complex, going through about four steps. If there are not enough thiosulfate ions available the process is not completed and some silver-thiosulfate complex remains in the film. After a period of weeks this complex changes to a form which can no longer be made soluble by additional fixing. The speed of fixing depends on the concentration of thiosulfate in the fixer, the higher the concentration the faster the fixing. Early research at Kodak Labs showing a definite optimum value for thiosulfate concentration was later found to be in error. The research was done using dry film. When wet film is tested there is no peak value, the fixing speed continues to rise as the thiosulfate concentration is increased. While a highly diluted solution of either sodium or ammonium thiosulfate might contain enough thiosulfate ions to complete the fixing of a small amount of film the time required might be very long. If the idea is to insure complete fixing by using an unused fixing bath each time it is misleading because the diluted fixer may not be able to complete the fixing in any reasonable time. The dissolved silver in a fixing bath is a measure of the ability of the fixer to fix completely, however, it is only one test and not a replacement for measuring the actual residual halide and thiosulfate complexes in fixed and washed emulsion. That is the only real way of determining the degree of fixing and whether fixing is "archival". Testing for halide or complexes is simple, using using either a 2% solution of Sodium sulifide (not sulfite) and the other is a 1:9 dilution of Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner. The sulfide test can be used at any time after fixing, the KRST test fails if there is much residual hypo in the emulsion so should be used only on well washed material. Both tests leave a yellow to brown stain if there is any residual silver halide or complexes in the emulsion. Properly fixed film or paper should show no stain after using the test. The tollerance for dissolved silver of Ammonium thiosulfate fixers (rapid fixer) is about double that of Sodium thiosulfate fixer. Also the ammonium salt is more tollerant of dissolved Iodide from high speed films which tends to act as a restrainer of the fixing bath. However, the capacity of either salt for complete fixing in a single bath is rather limited. By using a two bath system the capacity is extended by a factor of at least four and as much as ten. This can be further extended by using a sulfite wash aid, such as Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, following fixing. The Sulfite will release some thionates which are otherwise tightly bound to image silver allowing them to wash out. Ammonium fixing baths are often used at two different dilutions, one for film, a weaker one for paper. The only reason for the weaker dilution is as a precaution to prevent bleaching. Bleaching is not a problem for Sodium fixing baths but can happen when an acid Ammonium bath is used. Ammonium thiosulfate is a fairly good solvent for metallic silver when acid. The bleaching does not take place unless fixing time is extended well past the point of complete fixing and is noticable mostly as a cooling of the color of warm tone paper. Nearly any paper will fix out completely in 2 minutes in a film strength Ammonium thiosulfate bath, many papers will fix out in 30 seconds. Fixing time for paper should not be extended beyond about 2 minutes unless testing has shown definitely that more time is needed for a particular paper. Film emulsions for various reasons take longer to fix. The images on film are also composed of substantially larger grains of silver than those on paper making them much less susceptable to the bleaching effect. It is not an issue for film. Neutral or alkaline Ammonium thiosufate fixing baths do not have the bleaching property. If one is reasonably careful there is no reason a film strength rapid fixing bath should not be used for paper. Testing for fixer exhaustion: There are two means of testing for fixer exhaustion, one is to test for clearing time of a standard emulsion. This is compared to the clearing time of that emulsion in fresh, unused, fixer. The film should be wetted before testing because dry film fixes at a different rate than wet film. The rule of thumb is to replace the fixing bath when the clearing time doubles but this is probably to much silver so some shorter time should be allowed. The second test is the Potassium Iodide test. A standardized solution of Potassium Iodide is added to a diluted sample of the fixing bath. If more than a certain amount of silver is present it complexes to form insoluble Silver Iodide which precipitates as a cream colored or yellow cloud in the solution which does not redissolve when agitated. The sesitivity of the test depends on the relative dilution of the fixing bath. This test is useful for determining the end of life for the first bath of two bath fixers or for single fixing baths where commercial rather than archival fixing is required. Formulas for the Iodide test, the Sulfide test and others are found in the literature, for instance the _Kodak Black-and-White Darkroom Dataguide_. A last word. Complete fixing is necessary for long life of film or paper because any insoluble material left in the emulsion will eventually either decompose and attack the image or be attacked itself by atmospheric polutants. Where prints or film are to be toned for image protection the fixing _must_ be complete because the toners will tone the residual materials as effectively as the image silver resulting in permanent stains. Some general recommendations: While either Sodium or Ammonium fixers will work for film Sodium is much slower and is more vulnerable to accumulated Iodide and dissolved silver. Either Sodium or Ammonium fixer can be used for paper. If well controlled darkroom procdeures are followed film strength Ammonium fixer has the advantage of greater capacity and faster fixing times. So, For film or paper use film strength rapid fixer. Use a two bath fixing setup. Use sulfite wash aid for both film and paper. Test fixing baths periodically by using both the clearing time method and the accumulated silver test using Potassium Iodide. Test the results of fixing by using the Sulfide or KRST tests. A scrap of paper can be processed along with the prints for tests on paper. Unless there is a good reason for using hardenign fixing use non hardening fixer. Rapid fixers without hardeners or with the hardener in a separate container which can be left out are available from all chemistry manufacturers. If there is a question about the control of fixing time use neutral ph Rapid fixer. This is available from several sources and is used in color processing. An example is Agfa Universal Fixer. Such fixer must not be used with an acid stop bath. Use a running water wash of a couple of minutes for film or paper. This procedure is to prevent bleaching. For paper Sodium thiosulfate fixer is quite suitable. Make tests using the sulfide test to find out what the minimum fixing time actually is since clearing is hard to determine on paper. Many papers will fix out in 2 minutes in conventional fixer. For these there is no particular reason to use rapid fixer. Film or paper given a reasonably good fixing, and a reasonably good wash should have an expected life of about a century if stored well. By treating film and paper with a protective toner, such as Kodak Brown Toner, the expected life will be more than a century and the materials will be reasonably free of vulnerability to airborne peroxides and sulfides.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
glaserp@sustainsoft.com - 01 Jun 2005 12:26 GMT Hi Nygdan,
> The > thing that is troubling me is that the top of the structure (which is a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > still detail in the parts not directly lit (such as in the left most > portion of the top of the structure) Other than reiterating Richard's question (i.e., is there detail in the negative itself per visual inspection), I would refer you to the following website for a method of calibrating your developing process: http://www.zone2tone.co.uk/testingm.htm.
The essence of the procedure is that you need to determine: 1) the correct exposure index (your light meter's ASA setting) so as to achieve adequate shaddow detail (shaddow detail is determined by exposure and so the way to get more or less of it is to rate the film slower or faster respectively); 2) the correct development time for the highlights (highlight density is determined by the amount of time in the developer, the agitation regime, etc.). Please do not be distracted by the "zone system" terminology. Even if you never vary your development times to control the contrast range of your negatives to compress or expand the tonal range of a scene, it is still immensely useful to do this calibration process.
There is a separate thread recently asking about whether negative densities need to be different for scanners as opposed to for traditional silver printing. I find this to be an intriguing question and look forward to learning more as that thread unfolds. In the meantime, I continue to develop negatives the same for scannning as for tradtitional printing, but my scanner has a pretty good dynamic range and for a more limited scanner I can imagine it might be necessary to compress the range.
Finally, remember to use good third-party software for your scanner (I recommend Vuescan) and to adjust the scanner as needed to capture detail.
Best of luck.
--Phil
Mike King - 03 Jun 2005 17:18 GMT PermaWash and wash times seems short to me. I use my wash aid for 5 minutes with constant agitation on a motor base and wash for 10 minutes, if water conservation is a big concern use 10 water changes with 30-60 seconds agitation per exchange. Fixing times also seem short. With fresh Fixer I fix for twice clearing time in Rapid Type ammonium fixers or three times clearing in sodium fixers (powdered). Use the trimmed off leaders from your film to determine fixation times.
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> 6 minutes 15 seconds with d-76 @70 degrees, agitate w/5-7 quick > inversions, then repeat every 30 seconds. I've been doing a final [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > whether its hte water, the sky, or the grass in the foreground > http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/Nygdan/Experimental%20BnW/Image1.bmp Richard Knoppow - 03 Jun 2005 21:36 GMT > PermaWash and wash times seems short to me. I use my wash > aid for 5 minutes [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > leaders from your > film to determine fixation times. Snipping here...
The research paper describing Kodak wash aid shows a graph of wash time for reducing the hypo content to archival levels vs: treatment time in the wash aid. The graph shows a fairly rapid reduction of wash time up to a treatment time of four minutes, after that increased treatment time doesn't do much. Kodak's wash aid treatmentn times and wash times are based on the retention of a very small amount of thiosulfate which was found to give some protection against oxidation of the image. If the image is to be toned this is probably irrelevant. Paper needs somewhat longer treatment time in order to allow the wash aid to soak into the paper base so it can displace the thiosulfate there. Again there is not much to be gained by more than 4 minutes of treatment. Residual hypo can be tested for using a silver nitrate test. The test solution leaves a stain which is proportional in density to the amount of thiosulfate present. Kodak publishes an over lay called the Kodak Hypo Estimator for use with this test but in general no more than a very slight yellowing should be present after the test.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
UC - 06 Jun 2005 22:22 GMT Your agitation is WAY too vigorous. Use ONE cycle of two inversions ONCE per minute. Rap the tank >>gently<< at the end of the cycle. Use a double-folded towel (two layers) to cushion the tank.
> 6 minutes 15 seconds with d-76 @70 degrees, agitate w/5-7 quick > inversions, then repeat every 30 seconds. I've been doing a final [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > whether its hte water, the sky, or the grass in the foreground > http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/Nygdan/Experimental%20BnW/Image1.bmp Richard Knoppow - 09 Jun 2005 00:52 GMT > Your agitation is WAY too vigorous. Use ONE cycle of two > inversions [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> the canister into my palm at the end of each agitation >> bit. This is pretty mild agitation. Kodak's recommendation for small tanks is 5 to 7 inversions in 5 seconds every 30 seconds. Ilford recommends inverting for 10 seconds once a minute. Either system will work if you stick to it. The degree of development and consequently contrast, increases with agitation. For that reason agitation should be very consistent whatever system is used. There really is no such thing as excessive agitation provided the replacement of the developer at the emulsion surface is uniform. Where there is some irregularity of flow, as is nearly always the case for tanks, continuous agitation will result in irregular development sometimes known as flow marks. Insufficient agitation also results in irregular development but of a different sort. Since the developer in the denser parts of the film generates reaction products faster than in lower densities it can work at a different rate. When this is controlled it may result in a lowering of highlight contrast, an effect known as compensation. This is somtimes desirable but in general not. But, if not controlled it will result simply in irregular development and blotchy or steaky negatives. If the film is vertical some reaction products may flow downwards from the high density areas before they have a chance to diffuse into the developer. This results in so called bromide streaks, lines of lower density below and in line with high density areas of the negative. A reasonable amount of agitation will eliminate the effects of insufficient agitation but still allow enough time for constant development to mask any effects of irregular flow. Again for consisten results it is very important that the agitation by consistent regardless of the particular sytem adopted.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
UC - 11 Jun 2005 02:16 GMT I finally found the instructions for the Paterson System 4 tanks:
"DEVELOPMENT The quantities of solution required for each size of film will be found engraved on the tank base.
Pour the required quantity of solution through the central hole in the lid. DO NOT tilt the tank during filling. The tank is designed to permit solutions to be poured in with extreme rapidity whilst in an upright position, and the solution covers the film evenly from below upwards, avoiding streaks and uneven development.
AGITATION The recommended method of agitation is by inversion. This method is the most effective one in preventing uneven development of the film and the following procedure is recommended.
1 After pouring in the developer insert the agitator and twist the spiral backwards and forwards for a few seconds to dislodge any air-bells- which might form on the surface of the film. Lightly tapping the bottom of the tank on the bench will help to remove air-bells. Place the water-tight polythene cap in position Put on the lid and allow one minute for the film to to become saturated with the solution. N.B. Push the cap down SLOWLY. This prevents undue air pressure inside the tank up which might cause leakage past the sealing ring during inversion.
2 After one minute, invert the tank and at once return it to the upright position (see Fig. 2).
3 Invert once each minute during the development time."
> > Your agitation is WAY too vigorous. Use ONE cycle of two > > inversions [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Los Angeles, CA, USA > dickburk@ix.netcom.com Pieter Litchfield - 11 Jun 2005 13:23 GMT Wow - Patterson tanks all leak because we've been putting on the caps wrong? Maybe Triumph motorcycles all leaked oil for the same reason! ROFL
>I finally found the instructions for the Paterson System 4 tanks: > [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] >> Los Angeles, CA, USA >> dickburk@ix.netcom.com Frank Pittel - 13 Jun 2005 15:59 GMT Unlike Triumphs Harleys don't lead oil. They mark their spot!! :-)
: Wow - Patterson tanks all leak because we've been putting on the caps wrong? : Maybe Triumph motorcycles all leaked oil for the same reason! ROFL
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John - 13 Jun 2005 23:21 GMT > Unlike Triumphs Harleys don't leak oil. They mark their spot!! :-) We call them "Hardley's" as in hardly affordable and hardly worth even half their price.
 Signature John - www.puresilver.org
F.C. Trevor Gale - 25 Jul 2005 15:33 GMT > AGITATION > The recommended method of agitation is by inversion. This method is the > most effective one in preventing uneven development of the film and the > following procedure is recommended. Greetings;
I also use the Paterson System 4 tanks for 120 roll-film; inversion agitation is not the only successful method. The rotation handle which comes with that system allows the alternative of rotation agitation which I use a lot, and gives perfectly successful results, and also guarantees even development.
Just my 2c worth - F.C. Trevor Gale
UC - 25 Jul 2005 17:36 GMT The post is a quote from Paterson.
> > AGITATION > > The recommended method of agitation is by inversion. This method is the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Just my 2c worth - F.C. Trevor Gale Gareth - 26 Jul 2005 13:32 GMT Wash time sounds a little (well, a lot) too short for me, but I can't see how that affect the highlights.
I suspect you have a problem with overexposure or a scanner problem of some description.
Is the scanner set to auto expose? (if it's not, that might be the problem) Any possibility of your exposure meter (in camera?) being off (or film speed wrongly set)?
As Richard and Phil mentioned, the negative should give some clues. If there is detail in the highlights (i.e dark areas of the negative) not coming through on the scan, you have a scanner problem. If the shadows seem ok (i.e light on the negative but with detail) but the highlights have no detail, that suggests over development (e.g too much time, too much agitation and/or too high temp). If the shadow areas seem overexposed (e.g mid or dark grey on the negative) and the highlights have no detail, sounds like an overexposure problem.
Regards Gareth
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