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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / June 2005

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Film EI testing for later scanning??

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Paul Mead - 30 May 2005 17:00 GMT
Hi all

not sure if I'm blaspheming here, but I would like to pose a question  
about using film and digital together.

I have had to dismantle my darkroom for the time being, as the house is  
being (slowly) renovated, so I don't have the facility to print in the  
traditional way. I can dev my film with the use of a daylight tank and  
changing bag, and I have a Minolta negative/slide scanner which I've been  
using to transfer the negs onto PC for printing or web use.

I can't help thinking that I'm not getting the best out of my negatives by  
exposing them at the best EI for printing using a condenser enlarger. Can  
anyone suggest a testing methodology (that doesn't require use of a  
densitometer) that I could use to get the best negs for scanning and  
printing using my setup? Or has anyone actually done this?

Thanks

Paul

Please remove the not to reply by email.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 30 May 2005 19:38 GMT
> I can't help thinking that I'm not getting the best out of my negatives by  
> exposing them at the best EI for printing using a condenser enlarger.

> Can anyone suggest a testing methodology (that doesn't require use of a  
> densitometer) [optimizing B&W for scanning]

A scanner _is_ a densitometer.  I don't know of any commercial software
for the easy use of a scanner for absolute measurements.

Occasionally there is discussion of this issue, try Google.

TTBOMK the best B&W film for scanning is color negative: either the
B&W versions or plain 'ole color film turned to B&W in Photoshop.

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Mike King - 31 May 2005 03:26 GMT
Color negative film scanning lets you do one other "neat" thing, win
Photoshop you can play with levels, curves, saturation, etc. and convert
your color negative to a black and white image that was shot with any
conventional black and white contrast filter (red, orange, yellow, green,
etc.) and even create a pretty convincing BW pseudo-IR look.

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darkroommike

----------

>
> > I can't help thinking that I'm not getting the best out of my negatives by
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> TTBOMK the best B&W film for scanning is color negative: either the
> B&W versions or plain 'ole color film turned to B&W in Photoshop.
stephen zimic - 31 May 2005 13:11 GMT
Paul,
You pose a very good question here. I really can't give you any definitive
answer, but here are my thoughts anyway. Mike has a good point in that
color film allows you much more control over the image in PS than BW. If
however you prefer to control your negs in camera using color filters and
grads, then stick with the BW. It certainly has more dynamic range than
color when processed correctly. The question needs to be asked however, do
you need all that dynamic range? In my opinion - no. The big advantage to
BW negs is that you can optimize your image for each scene with different
development. Ansel Adams took great pains to expose and develop his negs to
print on his paper of choice at the time. The main reason for that is
because BW papers are quite limited in their dynamic range. If your
negative wasn't exposed and developed to produce a good print on a #2 grade
paper you're going to be fighting all the way to get a good print. To a
lesser extent the same holds true for scanning your film.  Most modern film
scanners do have a greater dynmaic range than conventional BW papers, so I
would say, as a start at least, that your going to have to develop for more
contrast than you had been. What you need to watch for is making sure you
expose and develop mostly for the shadows because if the detail's not there
your out of luck. There are so many variables between the scan and the
final print, that optimizing your development is going to be a daunting
task. Different scenes will require different negative development as it
did with conventional printing. You want to get a scan that will be as
close as possible to producing your desired print without any - or minimal -
PS adjustments. Sure PS has lots of ways to control the image, but
remember, almost all of them throw information away as a result. Shooting
digitally in camera raw is a much less lossy process however. Personally
for me, those days of plotting curves for different developments are a
thing of the past. I much prefer shooting digitally in camera raw where I
can digitally develop the image with minimal loss in quality. I hope this
helps a bit.
Matthew McGrattan - 01 Jun 2005 13:16 GMT
Most modern film
>scanners do have a greater dynmaic range than conventional BW papers, so I
>would say, as a start at least, that your going to have to develop for more
>contrast than you had been.

My experience is that the negatives need *less* rather than more
contrast if they are to be scanned. I find dense contrasty negatives
don't scan at all well.

On the other hand, flatter, slightly thinner looking negs scan well.

This may partly be a function of the dynamic range of the scanners I
am using. [An Epson 1640XL and a Nikon Coolscan LS2000]

Celer produce a developer - Celer Mono - that is supposed to be for
producing negs designed for scanning.

http://www.silverprint.co.uk/chem39.html

I haven't tried it.

Matt
glaserp@sustainsoft.com - 01 Jun 2005 16:09 GMT
Hi Mathhew,

> My experience is that the negatives need *less* rather than more
> contrast if they are to be scanned. I find dense contrasty negatives
> don't scan at all well.

When you say "dense contrasty," do you mean negatives that would be out
of the range of waht is considered normal for traditional printing
(with zone VIII at around, say, 1.15 over b+f)?

Also, in what way do you find that such negatives don't scan well. Is
it that you have to sacrifice highlight detail to capture shaddows
detail? Or is that your mid-tones don't look good?

I ask all this because I recently had the experience of underexposing
and underdeveloping a roll of tri-x and the scanned results turned out
to look pretty good. A more correctly exposed negative didn't look as
nice, not in terms of loss of detail at the extremes, but in terms of
overall tonal range. My guess is that I just need to adjust the white
balance or brightness for the scan, but I'm interested in hearing about
other's experiences.

Thanks.

--Phil
Matthew McGrattan - 01 Jun 2005 17:21 GMT
>Hi Mathhew,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>of the range of waht is considered normal for traditional printing
>(with zone VIII at around, say, 1.15 over b+f)?

The zone terminology means nothing to me I'm afraid.

I don't do any wet printing so can't say for sure with negatives that
I've developed myself how they'd print. The negatives I develop I
largely develop for scanning.

Certainly they - the contrasty negs that don't scan well - don't look
any different to negatives I've had printed at labs and where I've
been very happy with the outcomes. So I think they are perfectly
printable.

I find that the more dense negatives lack mid-tone detail and the
tonal range just doesn't seem right. There's a big 'scoop' in the
midtones with all the tonal values at the extreme ends of the scale
(which is just another way of saying they are too contrasty).

Other people's experiences probably vary.

Matt
Rod Smith - 01 Jun 2005 18:18 GMT
>> My experience is that the negatives need *less* rather than more
>> contrast if they are to be scanned. I find dense contrasty negatives
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> it that you have to sacrifice highlight detail to capture shaddows
> detail? Or is that your mid-tones don't look good?

I'm not the OP; however, I do have some experience with scanning negatives
(more than with printing them using a traditional enlarger, in fact). In
my experience, one problem with dense negatives is that scanners tend to
produce a lot of noise in dark areas of negatives or slides (for
negatives, of course, that means light areas of original scenes, such as
white walls). The result looks like horizontal or vertical streaks
(depending on the scanner's design and the orientation of the photo) in
the affected areas. The extent of this problem varies greatly, though. My
first scanner (an old Polaroid SprintScan 35) suffered very badly from it.
A couple of newer scanners I've got (an Epson RX500 multi-function unit
with a transparency adapter and a Konica/Minolta DiMAGE Scan Elite 5400
film scanner) seldom produce noticeable problems, but extremely dense
negatives will cause problems even for them. Using the VueScan software
package, increasing the number of passes (and hence the bit depth of the
scan) can often reduce the severity of the problem, but this increases the
scan time. Worse, some scanners lack explicit support for this feature,
which means that VueScan does multiple regular scans to implement it,
which in turn can cause alignment problems between the scans, and these
translate into blurrier scans. I'm not sure how common multi-pass support
is in other scanner software packages.

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http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

Philip Homburg - 02 Jun 2005 13:09 GMT
>This may partly be a function of the dynamic range of the scanners I
>am using. [An Epson 1640XL and a Nikon Coolscan LS2000]

If you use NikonScan with the LS-2000, did you try scanning as positive
followed by inverting the image in PhotoShop?

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Matthew McGrattan - 02 Jun 2005 17:37 GMT
>>This may partly be a function of the dynamic range of the scanners I
>>am using. [An Epson 1640XL and a Nikon Coolscan LS2000]
>
>If you use NikonScan with the LS-2000, did you try scanning as positive
>followed by inverting the image in PhotoShop?

NO, although I have tried as scanning as RGB colour then almost but
not completely desaturating in Photoshop - which leads to some random
toning effects.

I'll try scanning as a positive then inverting.

Matt
Maxwell Sandford - 31 May 2005 20:33 GMT
B&W or color?  For B&W scan a Kodak density step wedge to verify your
scanner's sensitivity and linearity.  Then photograph the MacBeth chart with
an 18% gray card, or better yet a really good step wedge positive.  Use
bracketed exposures and "standard" development.  If you don't like the
result, but the step wedge scans are acceptable then vary development until
you get acceptable results.  See how your B&W images render the various
colors into neutral density.

For color, shoot the MacBeth chart on color negative and transparency film
with bracketed exposures.  Check the scans on the color patches and the step
wedge along the bottom.  You may be surprised to find that some of the color
patches don't scan much like the chart, especially so for the transparency
films.  Look for good yellows.  These are hard to reproduce with color
films.  Note that your scanner is linear (CCD/CMOS detectors) and that the
firmware applies considerable signal conditioning.  Color printing is
inherently non-linear and is designed to reverse the non-linearity that is
present in the film recording.  Once you get the best scanned result that
you can, you can expect to need additional color correction through
non-linear gammas applied with PhotoShop or PaintShop Pro before your
digital result matches the original chart.

In my limited experience (I have only been working with digital scans since
about 1987), B&W is most difficult to render to digital format because the
scans are inherently contrasty.  B&W scanning is like printing with a
condensor enlarger onto grade 3 paper, so you might want to explore
fine-grain (read that as smooth-grain) developers.  Almost for certain the
D76 1:1 that prints so well won't give you the same kind of result when
scanned.

A final remark is that I agree with your procedure.  For me, color printing
is always a PITA because I can't control parameters with anything like the
precision that can be had in the digital world.  Also, film stores about
72Mb in a 35 mm frame.  That's possible with digital cameras too, but at
high cost and greater inconvenience.  Unfortunately, it's not easy to invert
the process and turn your high resolution digitally processed scans back
into color negatives that can be printed conventionally.  Being locked into
ink jet printers and expensive paper and ink isn't all that attractive to me
for the finished product.  Especially so if you want large print sizes.

> not sure if I'm blaspheming here, but I would like to pose a question
> about using film and digital together.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> densitometer) that I could use to get the best negs for scanning and
> printing using my setup? Or has anyone actually done this?
 
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